Selecting landout airports

[akiley]

I'm a member of a club that has marginal trailers for our ships. Because of this, and the multitude of small airports in our area, I usually just airport hop for cross country flights. We also have unpredictable landout options because 90% of the fields seem to be corn, which at the wrong time of the year are dangerous. So I'm looking for land and tow out airports

I'm mapping out good airports in various directions but have some questions:

1. In a standard class ship what might be the narrowest runway for landing when there are runway edge lights?

2. What about for an unassisted tow from (how narrow with runway lights)

3. Will a wing runner make much of a difference on a narrow strip

4. Turf/grass v asphalt, is one easier than the other given runway edge lights?

It's all about clipping a light.

I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass parallel area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are landable.

[BobW]

Free advice notwithstanding, there's no substitute for *current*
feet-on-the-ground airport information. As for "hard numbers"...

On 5/26/2016 6:52 AM, akiley wrote:
> I'm a member of a club that has marginal trailers for our ships. Because
> of this, and the multitude of small airports in our area, I usually just
> airport hop for cross country flights. We also have unpredictable landout
> options because 90% of the fields seem to be corn, which at the wrong time
> of the year are dangerous. So I'm looking for land and tow out airports
>
> I'm mapping out good airports in various directions but have some
> questions:
>
> 1. In a standard class ship what might be the narrowest runway for landing
> when there are runway edge lights?
Will prolly depend (a lot!) on your "acceptable crosswind component. That
said, if the lights/runway-edge-markers are lower than wings-roughly-level
taxi-height, then arguably they won't matter, and, if a veer is in your
future, it may be possible to do so while holding the critical wing above the
obstacle. It's been done...
- - - - - -

>
> 2. What about for an unassisted tow from (how narrow with runway lights)
Will almost certainly be affected by whether you've a nose or CG-only hook,
and X-wind again, not to mention tug grunt and how "tuned in" might be your
tug pilot...
- - - - - -

>
> 3. Will a wing runner make much of a difference on a narrow strip
Quite possibly...and in both the "good" and "bad" senses. Ad-hoc education is
good!
- - - - - -

>
> 4. Turf/grass v asphalt, is one easier than the other given runway edge
> lights?
In crosswinds, directionally speaking, asphalt tends to "bite" while grass
tends to "slide." Asphalt will likely have better braking, though turf may
well have considerably more wheel drag...meaning predicting rollout length
isn't a hard science. Don't overlook "grass height" when it comes to assessing
turf acceptability.
- - - - - -

>
> It's all about clipping a light.
>
> I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass parallel
> area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are
> landable.
>

Again, there's no substitute for feet-on-the-ground knollich...wet spring days
can be good for obtaining it. Be very wary about accepting others'
assessments, particularly if power-only types, no matter how well intended.

In all seriousness, this sort of stuff/planning/self-education is part of the
great fun of doing XC. Enjoy your journey!

Bob W.

[Tony[_5_]]

Spend a weekend fixing trailers. You'll be a lot more comfortable going xc then.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 3:52:49 PM UTC+3, akiley wrote:
> I'm a member of a club that has marginal trailers for our ships. Because of this, and the multitude of small airports in our area, I usually just airport hop for cross country flights. We also have unpredictable landout options because 90% of the fields seem to be corn, which at the wrong time of the year are dangerous. So I'm looking for land and tow out airports
>
> I'm mapping out good airports in various directions but have some questions:
>
> 1. In a standard class ship what might be the narrowest runway for landing when there are runway edge lights?
>
> 2. What about for an unassisted tow from (how narrow with runway lights)
>
> 3. Will a wing runner make much of a difference on a narrow strip
>
> 4. Turf/grass v asphalt, is one easier than the other given runway edge lights?
>
> It's all about clipping a light.
>
> I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass parallel area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are landable.

If a place is developed enough to have runway lights then you might well be better off landing on a taxiway, run up area etc!

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 9:31:45 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 3:52:49 PM UTC+3, akiley wrote:
> > I'm a member of a club that has marginal trailers for our ships. Because of this, and the multitude of small airports in our area, I usually just airport hop for cross country flights. We also have unpredictable landout options because 90% of the fields seem to be corn, which at the wrong time of the year are dangerous. So I'm looking for land and tow out airports
> >
> > 3. Will a wing runner make much of a difference on a narrow strip


for 3, "JJ Wing Runners" are a good investment. https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/jj.htm .


Dan

[Dan Marotta]

Keeping the wings level until stopped is the way to avoid clipping a
light. That, and maintaining runway center. I once landed out at a
small country airport with lights spaced 54' apart in an LS-6a (15
meter), stopped on center line before the wing dropped. Practice that
and you'll have no worries.

Grass is less abrasive than pavement but can be bumpy and very slippery,
especially when wet.


On 5/26/2016 6:52 AM, akiley wrote:
> I'm a member of a club that has marginal trailers for our ships. Because of this, and the multitude of small airports in our area, I usually just airport hop for cross country flights. We also have unpredictable landout options because 90% of the fields seem to be corn, which at the wrong time of the year are dangerous. So I'm looking for land and tow out airports
>
> I'm mapping out good airports in various directions but have some questions:
>
> 1. In a standard class ship what might be the narrowest runway for landing when there are runway edge lights?
>
> 2. What about for an unassisted tow from (how narrow with runway lights)
>
> 3. Will a wing runner make much of a difference on a narrow strip
>
> 4. Turf/grass v asphalt, is one easier than the other given runway edge lights?
>
> It's all about clipping a light.
>
> I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass parallel area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are landable.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Unless intended for landings, the grass may very well be a drainage.
Depending upon depth, your wing tip(s) may drag the ground before your
wheel touches down. I will always take the pavement at an airport
unless I know for certain that grass is intended for landing.


On 5/26/2016 7:19 AM, BobW wrote:
> It's all about clipping a light.
>
> I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass
> parallel
> area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are
> landable.

--
Dan, 5J

[akiley]

Great advice. I'm planning to fly power and inspect some of the airports in question. Both the ships I fly are standard class CG hook.

Generally the paved strips I'm considering (with edge lights) are 72' wide to 75' wide. Considering runway lights are at least a few feet beyond the runway edge, it seem 75' would work pretty well, even if a wing dropped before I came to a complete stop. Seems you have to have at least the center line, or hold wings level till a complete stop in this situation.

Aerotow with our Pawnee, unassisted seems like a more difficult proposition based on above runway. But with the JJ wing runner, or a human wing runner, maybe it's ok. Our STD Cirrus really likes to drop a wing unexpectedly pre 30kts or so. Another subject, but I think I need to get better at using both aileron AND rudder to counter this. Aileron only doesn't usually cut it. I worry that if I apply full rudder it's going to make the ship veer off to one side.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Practice unassisted TO's at your home field.
Slight cross angle of the glider to the runway, tip on the ground. Say you angle right a bit, put the left tip down (keep in mind any crosswind) such that it's drag on the ground aligns you as you accelerate. Part dive brakes can help with flow over the ailerons in the first hundred feet or so. Don't forget to close and lock the dive brakes.

[Ron Gleason]

On Thursday, 26 May 2016 09:44:39 UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Practice unassisted TO's at your home field.
> Slight cross angle of the glider to the runway, tip on the ground. Say you angle right a bit, put the left tip down (keep in mind any crosswind) such that it's drag on the ground aligns you as you accelerate. Part dive brakes can help with flow over the ailerons in the first hundred feet or so. Don't forget to close and lock the dive brakes.

When I self launch, wheels on the wings assist this, the tow plane will stand on the brakes for 15 or seconds and create prop wash that helps with lifting the down wing and getting wind over the wings.

YEMV

[BobW]

And FWIW (in the almost-fergot-to-mention-it sense of things)...

On 5/26/2016 6:52 AM, akiley wrote:
<Major snip...>

> I've also noticed from satellite views that there is often a grass parallel
> area located at many asphalt strips, but no way of knowing if these are
> landable.

Philosophically speaking, I've long considered airport landings - in a glider
and in the absence of 1st-hand and current knowledge of the field in question
- to be an "airport landout" by which I mean if the landing is on the runway,
it has a host of glider-unfriendly risks (just like every off-field landing)
with the sole exception of a known good surface (if powerplanes are actively
using it, of course; abandoned/little-used, "paved" strips don't count!).
Complacency can bite.

Furthermore, you doanwanna end up like a local pilot who landed out (some
years ago, now) a G-103 at the (nice, active, freshly upgraded) Longmont, CO,
A/P, located a whopping 8 or 9 air miles from our home field, and who decided
- for dodgy reasons likely having to do with "convenience for regular A/P
users" - to "use the grass" alongside the freshly re-concreted, very wide,
really long, main runway...and "busted the ship" by either hitting a
several-inch-high lip of a taxiway or groundlooping in the high grass (the
details have faded...).

Our local glider FBO/DPE (who went on the retrieve) was thoroughly
unimpressed, booming out the question, "Why'd you land in the grass when you
had this nice 7,000' long newly repaved runway right next to it???" Why indeed...

Bob W.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 6:44:39 PM UTC+3, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Practice unassisted TO's at your home field.
> Slight cross angle of the glider to the runway, tip on the ground. Say you angle right a bit, put the left tip down (keep in mind any crosswind) such that it's drag on the ground aligns you as you accelerate. Part dive brakes can help with flow over the ailerons in the first hundred feet or so. Don't forget to close and lock the dive brakes.

Maybe if you have a CG hook. In which case angle into the crosswind and put the other tip down.

With a nose hook, If you angle right and put the left wing tip down then both rope and tip will be swinging you to the left, which can be a recipe for a violent fishtailing. Better to put the same tip down so the rope is pulling you left and the tip is pulling you right, and you'll be in perfect control.

The amount of angling is not big. Definitely try where there is some width available at your home field to find the right balance of tip turning you one way and rope the other.

Having the down tip going faster also makes it easier to pick it up.

[Tom Nau[_2_]]

Don't even try to take-off unassisted with a CG hook. It won't go well. I fly a standard class glider with a CG hook. I carry a JJ WingRunner in the cockpit with me on every flight and have used it in the very scenario you are anticipating - landout at a paved strip and aerotow out un-assisted. Entirely uneventful. It breaks down into very small components and is stowed in the baggage compartment until needed. Then assembly and attachment to the wingtip is quick and easy as per JJ's instructions. I consider it an essential piece of equipment and prefer to use that rather than an untrained human wingrunner.
Tom

[[email protected]]

An unassisted launch on a paved strip is not difficult.

I have an ASW 19, with GC hook and wingtip skids.

The first step is to get your handy dandy Home Depot caster out and stick it onto the wingtip with double sided tape.

Communication with the tow pilot is critical - you want to go from zero to fast as quickly as possible. The standard practice of pulling out the slack, stopping, announcing you are taking off, is not good here. You want once the slack is out you want to go - like a contest tow. The trick is to get aileron and rudder authority quickly, which means a fast start.

And once you have control authority it doesn't matter how close those lights are, because you're not going to hit them.

[akiley]

Yes, that's a product I've been looking for. Ordered mine today. Might come in handy in Minden where I spend a week every year. Thanks for the tip.

[akiley]

Thanks Bruce, I have done a lot of unassisted aerotow said with our STD Cirrus. And I do angle the ship in anticipation of the low wing causing a turn in that direction. We have very short grass on our primary runway so nothing has ever snagged the wing tip. With a Cirrus I preferred unassisted because by the time the wing comes up it's almost too late for it to drop again.

[Dan Marotta]

Why do you say that? I've taken off unassisted in my LAK-17a (CG hook
only) without a second thought. I think there's way too much fear
around CG hooks.


On 5/26/2016 5:20 PM, Tom Nau wrote:
> Don't even try to take-off unassisted with a CG hook. It won't go well.

--
Dan, 5J

[Tom Nau[_2_]]

It's not possible in my ship, a '28, without a wingtip wheel.
Tom

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Glad I read this now, may have prevented me from unassisted aero retrieves from a grass field a in a ASW-20, 24, 27 & 28 all with CG hooks......... Oh, never had an issue with those tows....... ;-)....... YMMV.......

[JS]

Another vote for JJ's wing wheel.

Mileage varies with density altitude.
Try launching an ASW28 at 10,000' with a wing down, and you might agree with Tom.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Understood.

However, years back my partner and I launched our LS-6a (no tip wheels)
unassisted, though using a stick for a wing stand. I was in the tug and
he was in the glider. We had to make a couple of attempts due cross
winds causing the wing to rise and the stick to drop. Circumstances of
the day did not allow a trailer retrieve so I flew out to get him. I
wouldn't do that routinely...

On 5/26/2016 7:30 PM, Tom Nau wrote:
> It's not possible in my ship, a '28, without a wingtip wheel.
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Craig Reinholt]

Another trick is to carry a cheap old fashioned toilet plunger. Stick the suction cup under the wing with the wood dowel slightly screwed in. The dowel drops off as you roll.
Craig


On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Understood.
>
> However, years back my partner and I launched our LS-6a (no tip
> wheels) unassisted, though using a stick for a wing stand.Â* I was
> in the tug and he was in the glider.Â* We had to make a couple of
> attempts due cross winds causing the wing to rise and the stick to
> drop.Â* Circumstances of the day did not allow a trailer retrieve
> so I flew out to get him.Â* I wouldn't do that routinely...

[[email protected]]

Setting a wing on a traffic cone that happens to be sitting next to the runway works too, but you can't always count on somebody leaving a traffic cone behind for you. That 8 bucks I invested in my temporary wingtip wheel has been a good investment.

[[email protected]]

Another trick for an unassisted take-off, often practiced by pilots behind the Iron Curtain when towing back from a real field landing: use a really short towing cable (15 meters or less). When the towplane revs up with brakes on, there should be enough wind generated by the propeller to lift the wing at 0 kts. Jou need to take into account the side the slipstream will be going (propeller rotation + crosswind). But you need training to tow with such a short cable.

[Tango Eight]

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:27:25 PM UTC-4, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Another trick is to carry a cheap old fashioned toilet plunger. Stick the suction cup under the wing with the wood dowel slightly screwed in. The dowel drops off as you roll.
> Craig

Please don't leave debris on a runway!

In a difficult case (narrow, tall lights for snow country) we used two springy finger sized branches cut off a nearby tree, one under each tip, backed all the way up to the end of the runway. Technically the sticks littered the runway, but not a useful part of the runway.

Evan / T8

[[email protected]]

Evan: I hear that runway was very much littered already, with moose droppings... Although it looked fairly clean when I stopped by there last fall.

I've gotten towed un-assisted out of a narrow runway with lights more than once, and was told to place the glider about 50 feet before one set of lights. The idea was that you can't hit that set of lights, since it takes some distance to travel far enough off the centerline (or from a bit downwind of the centerline), and it's a whole 200 feet until the next set of lights, by which point you'll have enough airspeed to control the roll path. (It's also easier with 12.6m wings.)