Experimental question

[Wade G]

I recently bought an experimental DG-303.
I am trying to get the new op limitations done ASAP while the season is ticking away. The FAA is not at the pace of my desire to get this thing up!
My question:
I've heard that a buyer might be able to fly using the previous limitations and a/w for 30 days while waiting to get the papers updated. Is this true?

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

What country are you in?
What country is the glider from?

Sorta a big part of the question...........

[Wade G]

USA
In Oregon after bought from California

[Greg Delp]

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 6:55:43 PM UTC-4, Wade G wrote:
> I recently bought an experimental DG-303.
> I am trying to get the new op limitations done ASAP while the season is ticking away. The FAA is not at the pace of my desire to get this thing up!
> My question:
> I've heard that a buyer might be able to fly using the previous limitations and a/w for 30 days while waiting to get the papers updated. Is this true?

It mainly depends on the Ops Limitations that are currently issued for your glider. If you can fly the glider while complying with all the limitations listed in them then no problem. You have to notify the new geographically responsible FSDO of your intent to operate the experimental aircraft in their area using the previous ops limitations within 30 days. You could continue to operate with the original limitations indefinitely unless you can't comply with the limitations for some reason. Some Ops Limits will specify a specific area where the aircraft can be flown etc...

[Wade G]

Reading through my limitations again, it looks like it only instructs me to submit my program letter within 30 days and as long as the glider hasn't undergone a major change, it's "go" time.

[Maciek Arkuszewski]

Aren't we required to comply with all T/Ns for DGs regardless of being first owner or not? They are not ADs, but isn't experimental required to comply with all manufacturers requirements to be legal?

[Tom (TK)]

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8130.2G%20.pdf

[Bill T]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I misstate. In the US, TN are the same as Service Bulletins, recommended but not mandatory.
Manufacturer would have to ask their country of manufacture to issue an AD, then the US FAA would follow with a US issued AD.
Then it becomes mandatory.

Some TNs allow for modifications or additions to the basic airframe, like "spin kit", or change the brake to hydraulic disc. If you don't want it, you don't need to install it.

BillT

[[email protected]]

Read the ops limits that came with the ship. If it contains a statement like, "sale of this aircraft invalidates this Airworthiness Certificate", then you can not fly the ship using the old a/w certificate and ops limits. If it does not contain this statement, you can fly the ship and I believe all that is needed is a new Program Letter sent to your local Federallies.

You are allowed to fly with the temporary Request for new Registration if the pink carbon copy is carried in the ship.
JJ

[MNLou]

For what it is worth -

I purchased an used experimental glider in November 2014. I dutifully sent in my program letter to my local FSDO in January 2015. Later that month, I received a phone call informing me that because the glider was changing "home FSDOs", I needed a new Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations issued by my local FSDO.

The FSDO was great to work with and the process went very smoothly but, it was required before I flew the aircraft.

Lou

[Dan Marotta]

When I bought my used experimental glider from Texas and brought it to
New Mexico, there were no requirements other than I send a Program
Letter to my local FSDO.

I have a friend at the local FSDO (acquired years after registering my
ship here) and he told me that, when he attended FAA training in OKC, he
was told: "Welcome to Flight Standards, home of 87 independently owned
and operated offices". I have found that to be true, getting different
interpretations of the regulations from different offices.

Your results may vary.


On 5/30/2016 7:52 AM, MNLou wrote:
> For what it is worth -
>
> I purchased an used experimental glider in November 2014. I dutifully sent in my program letter to my local FSDO in January 2015. Later that month, I received a phone call informing me that because the glider was changing "home FSDOs", I needed a new Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations issued by my local FSDO.
>
> The FSDO was great to work with and the process went very smoothly but, it was required before I flew the aircraft.
>
> Lou

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

The Ops Limits are essentially a part of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and stay with the airplane through ownership and location changes, except where specifically noted in the Ops Limits or SAC. Your FSDO can *request* to issue you new Ops Limits or SAC, but there's no rule that you have to say yes!. New ones will surely be longer, more complex, and more restrictive. What's in it for you? Nothing!

If they press you to change it, refer to Order 8130.2H, Section 10 Paragraph 464.c(2):

"The gaining FSDO will not require the aircraft’s special airworthiness certificate and operating limitations to be reissued, unless the aircraft is in Phase I test flight operations, FAA Headquarters determines that the current limitations require reissuance, or the owner requests reissuance or amendment."



On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 9:52:05 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> When I bought my used experimental glider from Texas and brought
> it to New Mexico, there were no requirements other than I send a
> Program Letter to my local FSDO.
>
> I have a friend at the local FSDO (acquired years after
> registering my ship here) and he told me that, when he attended
> FAA training in OKC, he was told:Â* "Welcome to Flight Standards,
> home of 87 independently owned and operated offices".Â* I have
> found that to be true, getting different interpretations of the
> regulations from different offices.
>
> Your results may vary.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/30/2016 7:52 AM, MNLou wrote:
>
>
>
> For what it is worth -
>
> I purchased an used experimental glider in November 2014. I dutifully sent in my program letter to my local FSDO in January 2015. Later that month, I received a phone call informing me that because the glider was changing "home FSDOs", I needed a new Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations issued by my local FSDO.
>
> The FSDO was great to work with and the process went very smoothly but, it was required before I flew the aircraft.
>
> Lou
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

[MNLou]

I believe the FAA has streamlined the limitations. That's what I was told when I got the new SAC.

The limitations I have now are less restrictive than those of the previous owner.

Also, any changes to the program letter can be made with an e-mail to the FSDO and a printed copy of the e-mail in the cockpit.

YMMV -

Lou

[Casey[_2_]]

The way my previous Ops Limits were written made it sound like the glider had to be operated in a certain local even after phase 1 was completed. Anyway I thought it was cleaner not to have a certain local listed on the limitations so I wanted it change. I don't think I realized it did not have to be changed.

Anyway, everyone I've talked to have gotten more restrictions if they have gotten new limitations. My local FSDO added speeds and CG limits and got them wrong as well. FSDO put on my limitations: CG Limits 9.84 to 10.73. The manual says 9.84 to 16.73. I contacted the FSDO about this and he said it may cause more problems to correct the typo for a new airworthiness cert would have to be issued as well.

Personally, I've never thought it was good practice to restate something that is covered somewhere else. For this very reason and also if the FAA changes a reg that is listed on the limitations then those limitation should be changed.

On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 3:31:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Ops Limits are essentially a part of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and stay with the airplane through ownership and location changes, except where specifically noted in the Ops Limits or SAC. Your FSDO can *request* to issue you new Ops Limits or SAC, but there's no rule that you have to say yes!. New ones will surely be longer, more complex, and more restrictive. What's in it for you? Nothing!
>
> If they press you to change it, refer to Order 8130.2H, Section 10 Paragraph 464.c(2):
>
> "The gaining FSDO will not require the aircraft’s special airworthiness certificate and operating limitations to be reissued, unless the aircraft is in Phase I test flight operations, FAA Headquarters determines that the current limitations require reissuance, or the owner requests reissuance or amendment."
>

[Tom (TK)]

The order is 8130.2 G There are some big changes between the two documents. I posted a link in the thread earlier. One of the changes is for a placard to be visible to the pilot with certain limitations.

If the former owner or home airport is not specifically mentioned in the operation limitations (I have seen a lot of poorly written ops limitations from FAA inspectors that don't follow the guidance) AND you are satisfied with the old limits all you are required to submit is a new program letter. The FSDO "should" upon receipt of your program letter ask you for a copy of the airworthiness certificate and maybe a copy of your latest condition check to start a file. Review the 8130.2G as the program letter requirements have also changed.

The 8130.2G limitations for gliders are a lot less restrictive over older operating limits (such as removing the 300 mile operating limit). You might consider asking for new operating limitations and they will also issue a new airworthiness certificate.

Example of required placard (Antares 20E):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0kWK9b9sxAbTDFyNmdOWHJFOW8/view?usp=sharing

Example of 8130.2G Operating limitations (Antares 20E)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0kWK9b9sxAbTUNWUjRCUVJGZm8/view?usp=sharing

8130.2G Program letter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0kWK9b9sxAbdElPRmpzY3pUdE0/view?usp=sharing

Hope this helps.

Tom (TK)

[Dan Marotta]

Now THAT is the best answer I've seen in a long time!


On 5/30/2016 1:30 PM, wrote:
> The Ops Limits are essentially a part of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and stay with the airplane through ownership and location changes, except where specifically noted in the Ops Limits or SAC. Your FSDO can *request* to issue you new Ops Limits or SAC, but there's no rule that you have to say yes!. New ones will surely be longer, more complex, and more restrictive. What's in it for you? Nothing!
>
> If they press you to change it, refer to Order 8130.2H, Section 10 Paragraph 464.c(2):
> "The gaining FSDO will not require the aircraft’s special
> airworthiness certificate and operating limitations to be reissued,
> unless the aircraft is in Phase I test flight operations, FAA
> Headquarters determines that the current limitations require
> reissuance, or the owner requests reissuance or amendment."
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 9:52:05 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> When I bought my used experimental glider from Texas and brought
>> it to New Mexico, there were no requirements other than I send a
>> Program Letter to my local FSDO.
>>
>> I have a friend at the local FSDO (acquired years after
>> registering my ship here) and he told me that, when he attended
>> FAA training in OKC, he was told: "Welcome to Flight Standards,
>> home of 87 independently owned and operated offices". I have
>> found that to be true, getting different interpretations of the
>> regulations from different offices.
>>
>> Your results may vary.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/30/2016 7:52 AM, MNLou wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> For what it is worth -
>>
>> I purchased an used experimental glider in November 2014. I dutifully sent in my program letter to my local FSDO in January 2015. Later that month, I received a phone call informing me that because the glider was changing "home FSDOs", I needed a new Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations issued by my local FSDO.
>>
>> The FSDO was great to work with and the process went very smoothly but, it was required before I flew the aircraft.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 3:55:43 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
> I recently bought an experimental DG-303.
> I am trying to get the new op limitations done ASAP while the season is ticking away. The FAA is not at the pace of my desire to get this thing up!
> My question:
> I've heard that a buyer might be able to fly using the previous limitations and a/w for 30 days while waiting to get the papers updated. Is this true?

The limitations are good for the life of the sailplane..sometimes the home base may be mentioned and the practice area in the limitations for the home field in which the sailplane was original certified. Some people like the old limitations because many times they have fewer limitations, now they write limitations from a format. It is true that if your sailplane is Experimental "air racing" you need to just notify the FAA that you just bought the sailplane and where the home base of that aircraft is, Fax in a letter saying where you intend to fly for the year, or if you are going some place that is not on your original letter just Fax in a new letter, no response is necessary from the FAA. Remember that the airworthiness is invalid if the operating limitation are not attached. You must notify the FAA in 30 days of the new location of the aircraft, no need for new limitations unless you want but remember the FAA likes to do as little as possible, you also may be able to find a DAR to help you out.