Wacky Tracky [Archive] - AviationBanter

Dan Marotta

June 4th 16, 03:13 PM

What did family, friends, and crews do before all of this tracking was
available...?

I find it odd that some days in New Mexico (lots of GPS testing), my
Streak and my CNvXC vario receive the GPS signals while my Garmin 396
does not. I sure hope those sneaky Russians use Garmin and not Clearnav!

On 6/3/2016 9:06 PM, wrote:
> You might consider reading the original post. People on the ground were not seeing the tracking information - nothing to do with what JS was seeing. It appears that both satellite tracking companies were having trouble getting data onto their websites. But a day later the info was there, quite odd.
>
> Delays like this can be troubling for folks on the ground trying to figure out whether the pilot has crashed or there's just a glitch somewhere in the loop.
>
> On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 7:51:31 PM UTC-7, soarhead wrote:
>> You might try that thingy called "maps." Much cheaper than the Infotainment Center found in most gliders these days, and not subject to GPS blackouts. A useful accessory is the "compass," if you are not flying out west, where you can navigate by seeing those things called "mountains."

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 04:02 PM

Ditto's Soarhead and Dan. Mercy sakes if no one can track your flight. Fly the flight, enjoy the time away from wife kids work problems and distractions. If thats too disconcerting may I suggest a two place machine. That way you always know at least one other person knows where you are.

I get the original intent of the post but geesh, we can do just fine without the tracking. As Dan stated, we did fine doing decades of xc without gps or Spots or cell phones for that matter. Spend your time flying more efficiently, staying out of trouble and making friends with the farmer or rancher who owns the field you end up landing in, you can call home then and you may make a lasting friend, get a good home cooked meal or have fun with the farmers daughter.
As for the "safety" factor, having been part of search and rescue and CAP for years, good luck. If you depend on them your already in trouble. All my long flights were out of Minden and. I knew I was on my own, period. A survival kit, my wits and decent decision making are the best tools for survival. Communications come in a distant second.

Ramy[_2_]

June 4th 16, 04:21 PM

Sure we can do without all the technologies just like the old days. Leave your batteries at home. We can also spend days walking out or found few years later like Fossett. Thanks to technology, especially trackers, we don't even need to rely on SAR, our friends can find us faster. In the past there was no other way, but nowadays flying cross country without one is downright irresponsible.

Ramy

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 04:32 PM

Well Ramy"irresponsible" is a pretty strong word. I would say the guy who flies xc who makes bad decisions and cracks up his bird is the ultimate in "irresponsibility" or the guy who flies thinking his L/D will get him out of trouble or get him home every time is the "irresponsible" party.

Modern tec is nice, I have it, I use it, including amateur radio, but it is absolutely secondary to decent airmanship and proper educated self reliance. Anyone who thinks spot or flight tracking is gonna save him, is a fool in my opinion. All it will do is help find your body a little faster making for a more timely funeral service. We beed more people to accept personal responsibility for their flying and their survival, this may include location tracking devices but it most definitely includes educated self reliance.

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 04:38 PM

The above comments are from someone who has had to walk out 9 miles to the nearest ranch, who has slept out overnight waiting for the morning light to hike out of a bowl pearched up above Mt Patterson accompanied by a two day carry out of my unscratched bird. Neither incident was much of a big deal. It was just a natural part of xc soaring. Guys dont have a clue nowadays of the perfectly normative situations we dealt with and still deal with when streatching our personal xc goals.

noel.wade

June 4th 16, 07:27 PM

This thread is why people think soaring is all just cranky old farts.

For those of you that don't like tracking or electronics in the cockpit or the ground: What does it matter if someone else carries that gear? If they aren't actively flying reckless in your airspace, their preferences don't affect you AT ALL. Being bitchy about it is just as productive as whining about bandwagon sports fans.

The man had a question and was looking for info or help. How does being a dick about it help ANYONE? If you don't have something to add to the conversation, quit complaining on the Internet and go fly, or work on your glider, or do something productive.

No one cares about your negative opinion, and posting it for the world to see serves absolutely no purpose, other than to make you look like an asshole, tearing someone down for no reason (when they're trying to carry more safety gear, no less - Who criticizes safety)!?

The world doesn't need more assholes, so just don't do it.

--Noel

Paul Agnew

June 4th 16, 07:28 PM

Two weeks ago we had a double GPS failure while travelling westward while south of the restricted area in Utah. No NOTAMS or warning about GPS outages. ATC later confirmed the military was conducting GPS "testing".

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 07:49 PM

Well Noel thanks for the response but it looks like the only guy getting "bitchy n using foul language is you. As to opinions like Dan M and others and myself, they arent "bitchy", they are just bringing to mind a different persoective that may get a guy thinking along another avenue regarding his/her survival. I have Spot, I also have APRS via amateur radio, both of which I use but I dont depend on them.

As to answering the original poster's question, we have all attempted to do that, final answer? Nobody really knows why the system is crashing then later posting the tracks. All the more reason to maybe get prepared for the time when the system might not serve you. That would be the responsible tact to take and that might be the point to get from my and others posts.

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 08:10 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-5, noel.wade wrote:
> This thread is why people think soaring is all just cranky old farts.
>
> For those of you that don't like tracking or electronics in the cockpit or the ground: What does it matter if someone else carries that gear? If they aren't actively flying reckless in your airspace, their preferences don't affect you AT ALL. Being bitchy about it is just as productive as whining about bandwagon sports fans.
>
> The man had a question and was looking for info or help. How does being a dick about it help ANYONE? If you don't have something to add to the conversation, quit complaining on the Internet and go fly, or work on your glider, or do something productive.
>
> No one cares about your negative opinion, and posting it for the world to see serves absolutely no purpose, other than to make you look like an asshole, tearing someone down for no reason (when they're trying to carry more safety gear, no less - Who criticizes safety)!?
>
> The world doesn't need more assholes, so just don't do it.
>
> --Noel

Thank you, Noel.

Candid Sky Productions

June 4th 16, 08:12 PM

Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.

Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero. YOU as a pilot are supposed to be trained to use a map, VOR etc, and navigate without relying on a GPS or "glass". If you rely on a gps for positioning, to get your home, to navigate in general, to "track" you or let someone know your landout spot and can't use a map or properly you should NOT be in the air period.

I would like to see you guys/gals leave the GPS garbage at home and use a sectional to navigate. Can you actually do it? Do you even carry a sectional with you? Not in a tablet I am talking paper sectional and no I don't care about the tree its killing. Don't you think you would be a better pilot to be able to toss the gps (if you wanted to) and be able to run with a sectional? I do think so and I think the reliance on some of this technology is absolutely the problem today. The gps and spots are fantastic tools that you don't need to have. Do they make some tasks easier but that might be some of the problem. Everyone is so into the new stuff, the latest toys that they never have there heads outside the airplane and actually are paying "proper" attention to just flying the airplane.

noel.wade

June 4th 16, 08:30 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
---
> Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero. YOU as a pilot are supposed to be trained to use a map, VOR etc, and navigate without relying on a GPS or "glass". If you rely on a gps for positioning, to get your home, to navigate in general, to "track" you or let someone know your landout spot and can't use a map or properly you should NOT be in the air period.
---

I couldn't agree with this sentiment more. HOWEVER, the original poster wasn't talking about GPS for *their own* navigation at all. They were talking about a safety device for folks on the ground to use as reference.

Yet people's eagerness to rip someone for not being the pilot that YOU want them to be, the facts were totally overlooked.

What I think is bad for the sport is the eagerness to be negative and critical. To call people's equipment choices "garbage" when their choice does _not_ affect you in any way. To be so eager to pull other pilots down and question their skill or dedication or ability.

What the heck do folks even hope to accomplish, by blasting out such petty nonsense?

--Noel
P.S. Note the lack of swearing in my response, for those who wanted to complain about that as well. ;-)

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 09:01 PM

I am glad you slowed down, took a breath and cooled off there Noel and thanks for keeping the conversation civil. As to "us telling others how they should fly", thats exactly the opposite of what we are advocating. In fact it is you who are passing judgement on those of us who prefer to take more of a non-tec-dependant approach to the sport. Your very words, quote "those who dont use tracking devices are irresponsible". Now who is judging who?

As to our sport being filled with old opinionated cranky geezers, well it is. Our soirt is aged for a variety of reasons, one of which being, those who advocate for the necesity of having all of the latest n greatest in tecno gizmos have priced the majority of young people right out of the sport.
As to the original reason for some of our posts, some of us "old cranks" have been there-done- that when it comes to xc and instrumentation failing. Maybe we, since we started flying in a limited electro age of soaring, have found ways to fly efficiently, stay alive AND keep our loved ones informed of our wearabouts without overt dependance on outside aids. You might want to give that some thought. Besides you should respect your elders lol :)

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 09:05 PM

Oh p.s. I took an old 1-26 out for a 100k romp averaging 53mph today in marginal condx with 2,000 ft ceilings, the day you can do that I will consider you my elder :) :)

[email protected]

June 4th 16, 09:10 PM

Correction yesterday

Tim Taylor

June 4th 16, 10:10 PM

I lost GPS signal south of Elko for about 50 miles today. The signal would come in and out, not sure if I was on the north edge of some jamming. I have never had any problems in that area before.

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

June 4th 16, 11:23 PM

Do we need it? No.
Do crew/family like it? Yes
Should we be prepared for a remote off airport landing and possible hike? Yes

To keep on track, the original question was only, "hey, GPS/tracking quit, is it my hardware or a signal issue?".
Nothing more, nothing less. Please keep the crap out of the thread.

Thanks.

Have a great day. ;-)

Dan Marotta

June 5th 16, 03:24 AM

Conditions permitting, I'll be flying out of Minden tomorrow towards
Ely. I'll report back if I experience GPS dropouts.

On 6/4/2016 4:23 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Do we need it? No.
> Do crew/family like it? Yes
> Should we be prepared for a remote off airport landing and possible hike? Yes
>
> To keep on track, the original question was only, "hey, GPS/tracking quit, is it my hardware or a signal issue?".
> Nothing more, nothing less. Please keep the crap out of the thread.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Have a great day. ;-)

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

June 5th 16, 03:32 AM

+1 Noel. A welcome bit of tough love. Just a shame that the message never gets through to those that need to hear it most :(

CJ

[email protected]

June 5th 16, 03:49 AM

Yes CJ thats what I say most every day reading these posts

Candid Sky Productions

June 5th 16, 02:08 PM

Agree Noel, but the swearing doesn't bother me. :-) A couple things, people need to grow up and be able to take advice when it's given that way. Not take it as it's always an attack. Also I agree with the eagerness to be critical. Seems like more and more of the big dollar, every bell and whistle people think just because they have the best of the best they can spout out at folks and be critical. Happens in other areas of sport, hobby and life also just not soaring. Dealing with snotty spoiled people is nothing new. And the internet has brought on a new forum for that because they are much tougher behind the computer screen than in person. And when it comes to a face to face confrontation well let me tell you from experience they turn into 'minnie mouse" Oh of course they would never admit that online or to anyone :-) You guys have a good weekend soaring and be safe.

June 5th 16, 05:24 PM

Sorry if the subject "Wacky Tracky" was a bit too serious.

Delorme tech support said they had a server problem on the 2nd.
Unsure what troubled SPOT, no longer have an account to ask them about.

Discovered the APRS no longer works because the drinking water supply was increased from 4 liters to 6, and apparently that shields the 2m stubby antenna.
Hope that doesn't start a new argument, as in the old days we never carried that much drinking water.
Jim

[email protected]

June 5th 16, 05:55 PM

Good one Jim lol, back in the good old days we just did like George M and AJ and climbed into the Cu's and held our mouth open for a drink :)

As to APRS as you, but many others, might not know, the system is dependant upon the operational ability of the various amateur radio repeaters in a given area. Some places the system works great, others there is spotty coverage. The system however is great to use to get site specific wx info utilizing the various personal wx stations that many hams (amateur radio operators) have tied into the system. For those running the east coast ridges, it might be helpfull to locate stations along the intended course. The web page map for the aprs system shows them all in real time.

Being a proponent for non-dependance on modern tec does not mean anti tec nor does it mean the "good ole days" were the best. There's many a day back then when i wished for a 50/1 L/d and an actively updating flight computer with wind info while trying to scrape home on a final glide. One advantage however was I did loose a good deal of weight sweating :)

[email protected]

June 5th 16, 06:05 PM

Here is one of the links to the APRS system http://aprs.fi/#!addr=LAS%20VEGAS&mt=m&z=11&timerange=3600

Ron Gleason

June 6th 16, 05:30 AM

On Saturday, 4 June 2016 15:10:49 UTC-6, Tim Taylor wrote:
> I lost GPS signal south of Elko for about 50 miles today. The signal would come in and out, not sure if I was on the north edge of some jamming. I have never had any problems in that area before.

6/4 had GPS jamming out of China Lake. There is much activity out of that location and can affect areas up to 475 NM at high altitudes.

[email protected]

June 6th 16, 12:17 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 6:23:30 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Do we need it? No.
> Do crew/family like it? Yes

They like it when it works, but then get worried when it doesn't. I am not sure that's a net positive. I was trying to choose what such device to get, and consulted my wife, explaining that a regular "I have landed safely" SPOT message is cool, but can cause unnecessary worries if you get used to it and then for whatever reasons it fails to get through some day. So I got a PLB, to be used only in case of a real emergency. Otherwise I am out of touch while flying, and can often (but not always) use the cellphone after landing.

Matt Herron Jr.

June 6th 16, 03:27 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 8:32:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Well Ramy"irresponsible" is a pretty strong word. I would say the guy who flies xc who makes bad decisions and cracks up his bird is the ultimate in "irresponsibility" or the guy who flies thinking his L/D will get him out of trouble or get him home every time is the "irresponsible" party.
>
> Modern tec is nice, I have it, I use it, including amateur radio, but it is absolutely secondary to decent airmanship and proper educated self reliance. Anyone who thinks spot or flight tracking is gonna save him, is a fool in my opinion. All it will do is help find your body a little faster making for a more timely funeral service. We beed more people to accept personal responsibility for their flying and their survival, this may include location tracking devices but it most definitely includes educated self reliance..

Um... You landed on top of mount Patterson? maybe time to upgrade that "decent airmanship and proper educated self reliance" you speak of. Also, those GPS thingies can be used for final glide calculations to the nearest safe airport. For the top of Patterson, I think there are only five within easy glide; Swee****er, Flying Mouse, Hilton, Rosachi, Bridgeport.

Matt Herron Jr.

June 6th 16, 03:35 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
> Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.
>
"Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero. "

A few comments;

1) contests require GPS, so it's really not at my discretion

2) You and I DO own those satellites. We paid for them with taxes.

3) FAA is requiring GPS in the future, in the form of ADS-B out for most aircraft- So its not at their discretion either.

[email protected]

June 6th 16, 04:27 PM

Well Matt thanks for the response. There are times when there is little choice when pushing hard on a personal goal. As you seem to know the area, there is a pearched bowl on the east side of patterson. Its usually a good late day thermal producer for getting home to minden late as I was attempting to do on an out n return flight to bishop, but if u get in there you might not get out. Thats what happened to me, and without a whole lot of L/D and penetration ability, the options get smaller. I knew the area, I knew the meadow was landable but also knew it was gonna be a long hike out and a long retreave. Big deal, unlike others (one in particular) that have wrecked their ship and lost there life by trying to dive out of there, I simply landed. That flight was also made in pre-gps days in a 30/1 ship with zero penetration ability, something you probably have no experience with.

You might want to querry the details before you make broad brush stroking statements.

Dan Marotta

June 6th 16, 04:35 PM

I stay out of touch, as well. I like the solitude.

On the other hand, yesterday my friends, Kempton Izuno and Tom Bjork,
embarked on a record attempt out of Minden headed for a hilltop
somewhere southeast of Ely. Though they came up a bit short, it was an
epic flight (see yesterday's OLC).

Checking in at Soaring NV, I noted that they were at least 200 miles out
so I went back to the room for a shower (I'd flown 5.9 hours) and some
rest, and I occasionally checked on them using the SSA's sailplane
tracker. When I saw that they were only 40 miles out, Patti and hopped
in the car, went to the airport, and drove their vehicle to the expected
roll-out point. We'd been there about 5 minutes when she spotted them
on base. They rolled up to the truck, we towed them back to the ramp
and cleaned up the glider, and arrived at the Wild Horse Saloon in
Minden just before closing for a burger and a beer.

That was a good use of tracking (in my estimation)!

Dan

On 6/6/2016 5:17 AM, wrote:
> On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 6:23:30 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>> Do we need it? No.
>> Do crew/family like it? Yes
> They like it when it works, but then get worried when it doesn't. I am not sure that's a net positive. I was trying to choose what such device to get, and consulted my wife, explaining that a regular "I have landed safely" SPOT message is cool, but can cause unnecessary worries if you get used to it and then for whatever reasons it fails to get through some day. So I got a PLB, to be used only in case of a real emergency. Otherwise I am out of touch while flying, and can often (but not always) use the cellphone after landing.

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

June 6th 16, 04:39 PM

Hmmmm... Interesting point. I wonder what happens when "GPS testing"
kills all the ADS-B transmissions in a 300 mile radius of Alamogordo...

On 6/6/2016 8:35 AM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
>> Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.
>>
> "Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero."
>
> A few comments;
>
> 1) contests require GPS, so it's really not at my discretion
>
> 2) You and I DO own those satellites. We paid for them with taxes.
>
> 3) FAA is requiring GPS in the future, in the form of ADS-B out for most aircraft- So its not at their discretion either.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

June 6th 16, 04:40 PM

There you got Dan, I agree and send my congrads to the xc boys. Did you fly the Stemme up there? How'd it go? My bro is looking at getting one, primarily as an economical little cruiser.
Dan

Ron Gleason

June 6th 16, 04:54 PM

On Monday, 6 June 2016 09:39:07 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hmmmm... Interesting point. I wonder what happens when "GPS testing"
> kills all the ADS-B transmissions in a 300 mile radius of Alamogordo...
>
>
> On 6/6/2016 8:35 AM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
> >> Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.
> >>
> > "Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero."
> >
> > A few comments;
> >
> > 1) contests require GPS, so it's really not at my discretion
> >
> > 2) You and I DO own those satellites. We paid for them with taxes.
> >
> > 3) FAA is requiring GPS in the future, in the form of ADS-B out for most aircraft- So its not at their discretion either.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

For those you flying within 250NM of China Lake during the month of June be advised https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2016/Jun/CHLK_16-08_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

Send me an email if you would more detailed information as it is not as bad as it seems.

xcflying at gmail.com

Ron Gleason

[email protected]

June 6th 16, 05:01 PM

Thanks Ron, for the info and appreciate you keeping us up to date.

Ramy[_2_]

June 6th 16, 05:10 PM

You all focusing on the convenient and entertainment values of trackers. But the main value is your own safety especially if you are injured, and consideration for your friends and family. What you expect them to do if you don't show up by sundown and no one heard from you? I was in one soaring event when we needed to search for someone who flew without a tracker for 2 days, with sad ending. More recently a friend didn't turn on his tracker and landed out safely after announcing final glide but couldn't notify anyone and had to walk out. We sent a plane to look for him. If you fly cross country in a place where someone will be waiting for you to return by the end of the day, there is no substitute and no excuse to spend $150 per year for a tracker.

Ramy

Jonathan St. Cloud

June 6th 16, 05:38 PM

I thought durning the Clinton administration a law was signed that provided the military could not degrade nor turn off the GPS signal. This was due to commercial aviation becoming more reliant on GPS and the whole enhanced GPS thingy the FAA was installing for precision approaches. Apparently I am wrong.

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 7:35:05 AM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
> > Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.
> >
> "Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero. "
>
> A few comments;
>
> 1) contests require GPS, so it's really not at my discretion
>
> 2) You and I DO own those satellites. We paid for them with taxes.
>
> 3) FAA is requiring GPS in the future, in the form of ADS-B out for most aircraft- So its not at their discretion either.

Ron Gleason

June 6th 16, 05:48 PM

On Monday, 6 June 2016 09:39:07 UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hmmmm... Interesting point. I wonder what happens when "GPS testing"
> kills all the ADS-B transmissions in a 300 mile radius of Alamogordo...
>
>
> On 6/6/2016 8:35 AM, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:12:28 PM UTC-7, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
> >> Noel please, you're such a politician. And we all know what is happening to politicians these days the non politician leads the pack.
> >>
> > "Fact of the matter about GPS is this, use at your discretion. The owners of theses sats are not us as in you and me. And ultimately their responsibility to you if there is a "glitch" is zero."
> >
> > A few comments;
> >
> > 1) contests require GPS, so it's really not at my discretion
> >
> > 2) You and I DO own those satellites. We paid for them with taxes.
> >
> > 3) FAA is requiring GPS in the future, in the form of ADS-B out for most aircraft- So its not at their discretion either.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

There is much GPS jamming going on around White Sands and Alamogordo

A simple search of faa notams alamogordo gps jamming gets you this result

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/noticesAction.do?queryType=ALLGPS&formatType=DOMESTIC

Tango Eight

June 6th 16, 05:52 PM

The chest thumpers on this thread are pretty funny.

When *my* wheel hits the dirt and all that good airmanship stuff is done for the day, there is *nothing* so handy as a good means of communication.

Walk out? Sheeyit. I plan to homestead:-).

T8

Don Johnstone[_4_]

June 6th 16, 08:25 PM

At 14:27 06 June 2016, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

>Um... You landed on top of mount Patterson? maybe time to upgrade
that
>"de=
>cent airmanship and proper educated self reliance" you speak of.
Also,
>tho=
>se GPS thingies can be used for final glide calculations to the nearest
>saf=
>e airport. For the top of Patterson, I think there are only five within
>ea=
>sy glide; Swee****er, Flying Mouse, Hilton, Rosachi, Bridgeport.
>
Dearie me, how junior are you? Landouts are part of soaring, and if
you land a glider without damage to yourself I would say that you have
displayed good airmanship. More people have been killed or injured
trying to stretch a glide to a place they cannot reach than those
executing a timely and safe landout in a good selected field.

[email protected]

June 6th 16, 10:38 PM

Well Ramy some of us are'nt born with the silver spoon or have unlimited expendable income, so we choose to spend our money on more important items. If I was gonna spend another $150 it would be one three more tows and three more runs at local records.

As to my "loved ones", they know I fly xc, they know I am self suficient and capable. They know I sill call or contact them when I land. Why on Gods green earth am I going to worry them unnecessarily by having them depend on seeing my track. As Dan said, for many of us, having a trace is more for entertainment purposes then suppossed percieved "safety". Theres a whole MAJORITY of us who do not fly contests but DO fly lots of xc on personal goals. We dont necessarily need tracking software. For your info I DO have a SPOT and I do use it actively when flying agricultural spraying, why? Because spraying is a more inherently dangerous form of flying. I never consider my soaring to be in thar catagory, land outs? No big deal, even in NV or in the Alabama swamp country. Can I ding my ship? You bet, but I am in more danger driving to the gliderport than I am when I fly xc.

Ramy[_2_]

June 6th 16, 11:31 PM

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 2:38:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Well Ramy some of us are'nt born with the silver spoon or have unlimited expendable income, so we choose to spend our money on more important items. If I was gonna spend another $150 it would be one three more tows and three more runs at local records.
>
> As to my "loved ones", they know I fly xc, they know I am self suficient and capable. They know I sill call or contact them when I land. Why on Gods green earth am I going to worry them unnecessarily by having them depend on seeing my track. As Dan said, for many of us, having a trace is more for entertainment purposes then suppossed percieved "safety". Theres a whole MAJORITY of us who do not fly contests but DO fly lots of xc on personal goals. We dont necessarily need tracking software. For your info I DO have a SPOT and I do use it actively when flying agricultural spraying, why? Because spraying is a more inherently dangerous form of flying. I never consider my soaring to be in thar catagory, land outs? No big deal, even in NV or in the Alabama swamp country. Can I ding my ship? You bet, but I am in more danger driving to the gliderport than I am when I fly xc.

Well, your last sentence sums up your attitude to the risk of flying gliders, if you really believe the nonsense about the danger of driving to the airport.
Please read http://www.pacificsoaring.org/documents/Safety_Comes_First_BGantenbrink.pdf and please stop lying to yourself and loved ones.
Don't get me wrong, I am as aggressive XC pilot as you probably are (hack, I was down low yesterday in the very same area you probably landed out years ago, check OLC) and I was not born with silver spoon, but I can afford a little over $10 per month (and I believe there are cheaper plans) just as anyone who can afford flying gliders.
Since I am very well aware of the risk I am taking, I try to minimize it using relatively low cost gadgets. A spot barely adds to the cost of your landout kit. I know of at least one place where you wouldn't get a tow if you show up without a tracker, and rightly so.
And just to clarify again, I am not talking about the advantage on following your track, this is indeed more for convenient and entertainment. I am talking about the case when a pilot does not show up at the end of the day and does not make contact, then having a tracker makes a huge difference for everyone involved.

Ramy

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

June 7th 16, 12:02 AM

Sheesh........

I have an idea on global warming, toss up between politicians and forum posts.......

While I have done lots of contest and badge flights with a map and compass, I have also seen an old GPS trace go from the ground at HHSC to the UK and back in 10 seconds (long ago).

Frikking chill some of you.
It's the Internet.......

Hopefully there are more important things in some lives than posts here........

Matt Herron Jr.

June 7th 16, 12:06 AM

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 14:27 06 June 2016, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
>
> >Um... You landed on top of mount Patterson? maybe time to upgrade
> that
> >"de=
> >cent airmanship and proper educated self reliance" you speak of.
> Also,
> >tho=
> >se GPS thingies can be used for final glide calculations to the nearest
> >saf=
> >e airport. For the top of Patterson, I think there are only five within
> >ea=
> >sy glide; Swee****er, Flying Mouse, Hilton, Rosachi, Bridgeport.
> >
> Dearie me, how junior are you? Landouts are part of soaring, and if
> you land a glider without damage to yourself I would say that you have
> displayed good airmanship. More people have been killed or injured
> trying to stretch a glide to a place they cannot reach than those
> executing a timely and safe landout in a good selected field.

Pretty Junior. One Diamond, One Lennie, On regional contest win.

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 12:07 AM

Thanks for the response Ramy. As you can see the money is not the main point with me as I have a spot and use it. My point is safety IS not found in more gadgets.

You dont get it. I know of no one, NO ONE in the glider community who has been "saved" by a spot. I do know of persons whos body and wreckage has been found using location systems. Thats after the fact and doesnt much help the dead guy. My point is, fly in a manor that is inherantly survivable. I fly a ship that can land at 40 mph on a postage stamp. I deal with low level decisions on a daily part of my profession so for me, FOR ME, xc is not something that engenders fear or for that matter worry.

The greatest item a guy can invest in to increase his level of safety is more educational flying. When was the last time you took your bird up and spent an hour, a whole hour stalling and spinning and flying on the very edge of stall? Thats an hour and a $50 investment (tow) that goes way further to inhance safety than a Spot. Or how about 10 pattern tows working on short field landings dealing with obstacles? Theres another investment in safety that really pays off.
Those I fly with are also very active xc flyers and all fly with the same attitude. We depend on ourselves period. Our relatives know what we do and dont sweat it when we are out of touch for awhile. We do not expect anyone to come out looking for us untill a considerable time has passed and do not expect others to take care of us period.

As to the outfit that will not tow a non tracker equiped ship, good luck. Thats a mentality and attitude I am not interested in doing business with. I dont babysit others and I do not need one myself. Believe me, if you KNOW you are on your own, dependant upon yourself for survival, you fly in a much more concervative and thoughtfull frame of mind. This in itself inhances safety way beyond a spot etc.

I hope your getting my overall point and not getting lost in the retoric. Remember I am not anto gadget, I have a spot, I use it, but I do not depend on it, neither do my loved ones. Soaring is only as dangerous as you make it, or as dangerous as your skill level dictates. I appreciate your and others dialog on these matters.
Dan

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 12:12 AM

LOL Charles, yeh these threads do get tiresome but as I am waiting for the spray season to get going I have too dang nuch time to kill lol. I am also pouting as I do not get to go to Moriarty this year for the nationals due to work so I guess that engenders a sour argumentative mood too lol.

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 12:33 AM

Way to go Matt, looks like you won the sport class in a Ventus up in my old xc stomping grounds. You've got no excuse for not completing that diamond badge this year flying up there lol. Good luck and safe flying. Better hurry up though, I am redoing my badges in an old 1-26, gonna try and complete my diamond in her this year. Only problem being I have to work during the best part of the season june thru aug.

Ramy[_2_]

June 7th 16, 04:50 AM

Ok, I think we all made our points. Now will be nice if we all sign our names, as I can't be sure if I know someone by their masked email address (Google will show only the first few letters). Just so we can continue arguing when we meet at the airports ;)

Ramy

Dan Marotta

June 7th 16, 04:54 AM

Yes, we flew the Stemme from Moriarty to Minden. It's a very
comfortable and economical cruiser, but the acquisition cost ain't
cheap. We burned about 3.2 gph at 16,500' MSL but there's practically
no appreciable baggage space. We stuffed clothes in nooks and crannies
and used plastic grocery bags as out luggage. But it was sure fun! My
wife told me so!!

We'll be flying home tomorrow and it looks like good soaring from Cedar
City to Moriarty. Sunset allowing, I hope to shutdown around the AZ/NM
border and glide home.

On 6/6/2016 9:40 AM, wrote:
> There you got Dan, I agree and send my congrads to the xc boys. Did you fly the Stemme up there? How'd it go? My bro is looking at getting one, primarily as an economical little cruiser.
> Dan

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

June 7th 16, 05:03 AM

Sorry Ramy, but I can't agree with your "no excuse" philosophy. If that
works for you, that's fine and its your right. I don't make any excuses
for my choices of equipment. It's my choice. Just that simple.

Having said that, flying from Moriarty to Minden and flying home
tomorrow, I did and will make use of ATC flight following. Should
anything go wrong, and it's really unfriendly territory, ATC will have
my transponder track and we'll be in constant radio communication.
That's real time coverage with the people who have direct communication
with emergency services. I won't need to wait for someone to look at a
website to see if I'm still around and then try to get a rescue under way.

I'm not trying to start an argument, only to show that there are
different ways to approach a situation.

On 6/6/2016 10:10 AM, Ramy wrote:
> You all focusing on the convenient and entertainment values of trackers. But the main value is your own safety especially if you are injured, and consideration for your friends and family. What you expect them to do if you don't show up by sundown and no one heard from you? I was in one soaring event when we needed to search for someone who flew without a tracker for 2 days, with sad ending. More recently a friend didn't turn on his tracker and landed out safely after announcing final glide but couldn't notify anyone and had to walk out. We sent a plane to look for him. If you fly cross country in a place where someone will be waiting for you to return by the end of the day, there is no substitute and no excuse to spend $150 per year for a tracker.
>
> Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

June 7th 16, 05:14 AM

I forgot to mention... Attached to my parachute harness are a Spot
tracker and a personal locator beacon.

Now, with the Stemme, land outs are only a remote possibility the way I
choose to fly. I have the engine to get me home. But knowing that the
engine can fail to start, I always have a safe landing option within
gliding distance and I won't attempt an engine start until a landing can
be assured. The price I pay for my self-imposed rules is shorter and/or
slower flights, but I just fly because I love to. I'm not in it for the
points, the cash, or the chicks.

On 6/6/2016 4:31 PM, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 2:38:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Well Ramy some of us are'nt born with the silver spoon or have unlimited expendable income, so we choose to spend our money on more important items. If I was gonna spend another $150 it would be one three more tows and three more runs at local records.
>>
>> As to my "loved ones", they know I fly xc, they know I am self suficient and capable. They know I sill call or contact them when I land. Why on Gods green earth am I going to worry them unnecessarily by having them depend on seeing my track. As Dan said, for many of us, having a trace is more for entertainment purposes then suppossed percieved "safety". Theres a whole MAJORITY of us who do not fly contests but DO fly lots of xc on personal goals. We dont necessarily need tracking software. For your info I DO have a SPOT and I do use it actively when flying agricultural spraying, why? Because spraying is a more inherently dangerous form of flying. I never consider my soaring to be in thar catagory, land outs? No big deal, even in NV or in the Alabama swamp country. Can I ding my ship? You bet, but I am in more danger driving to the gliderport than I am when I fly xc.
> Well, your last sentence sums up your attitude to the risk of flying gliders, if you really believe the nonsense about the danger of driving to the airport.
> Please read http://www.pacificsoaring.org/documents/Safety_Comes_First_BGantenbrink.pdf and please stop lying to yourself and loved ones.
> Don't get me wrong, I am as aggressive XC pilot as you probably are (hack, I was down low yesterday in the very same area you probably landed out years ago, check OLC) and I was not born with silver spoon, but I can afford a little over $10 per month (and I believe there are cheaper plans) just as anyone who can afford flying gliders.
> Since I am very well aware of the risk I am taking, I try to minimize it using relatively low cost gadgets. A spot barely adds to the cost of your landout kit. I know of at least one place where you wouldn't get a tow if you show up without a tracker, and rightly so.
> And just to clarify again, I am not talking about the advantage on following your track, this is indeed more for convenient and entertainment. I am talking about the case when a pilot does not show up at the end of the day and does not make contact, then having a tracker makes a huge difference for everyone involved.
>
> Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

BG[_4_]

June 7th 16, 07:15 AM

It is irresponsible to the people who don't even know you that risk their lives to find you. Just like people who do stupid things and want the rescue team to save them. All it takes is a few bucks. There are a few technologies that are required to fly responsibly in today's world, none which are required by the FAA. Radios, Transponders, Trackers, PFlarm. Anybody flying XC or in dense traffic area with out these is irresponsible and is self centered. There is no good excuse. This is serious business and it is only a matter of time before it becomes law to leave the ground. Stupid actions by irresponsible pilots will speed the process.

BG

DaTruth

June 7th 16, 11:52 AM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:15:24 AM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> It is irresponsible to the people who don't even know you that risk their lives to find you. Just like people who do stupid things and want the rescue team to save them. All it takes is a few bucks. There are a few technologies that are required to fly responsibly in today's world, none which are required by the FAA. Radios, Transponders, Trackers, PFlarm. Anybody flying XC or in dense traffic area with out these is irresponsible and is self centered. There is no good excuse. This is serious business and it is only a matter of time before it becomes law to leave the ground. Stupid actions by irresponsible pilots will speed the process.
>
> BG

Pilots that spend money on electronic gadgets in the delusion of safety are the stupid ones.

Candid Sky Productions

June 7th 16, 01:49 PM

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 11:15:24 PM UTC-7, BG wrote:
> It is irresponsible to the people who don't even know you that risk their lives to find you. Just like people who do stupid things and want the rescue team to save them. All it takes is a few bucks. There are a few technologies that are required to fly responsibly in today's world, none which are required by the FAA. Radios, Transponders, Trackers, PFlarm. Anybody flying XC or in dense traffic area with out these is irresponsible and is self centered. There is no good excuse. This is serious business and it is only a matter of time before it becomes law to leave the ground. Stupid actions by irresponsible pilots will speed the process.
>
> BG

You people are unbelievable....

Fact of the matter is half the soaring community is a bunch of richie rich wanna be people that like to "show their tracks" and have to have the most expensive glider. Its just a matter of who has the biggest checking account.. Lets not forget Oh I am the best, I stayed up the longest, Im so much better because I have 3 GPS units in my ship, you should have this or I am going to tell everyone you are unsafe, oh the FAA is gonna make you do this. No wonder why I see lots of stupid accidents happening no one actually flys the freaking airplane. I got news for you, you guys are playing with toys.. You can't go anywhere in the things except for some silly task that means nothing to most people. And you are apparently making up for some sort of shortcoming. I was going to get back in the soaring again but after reading all this BS you can all shove it. (Oh yea I know some of you internet tough guys will say we don't need you Ahole, but we know your cowardly in a face to face and never have the balls to say it in person) Id rather spend my hard earned cash on a power plane then dick around flying in circles with a bunch of wanna be fell short of the line humans. Hell half of you prob can't even get a medical that's why your flying gliders. Your **** stinks just like the rest of the world get real. I hope you know that the real world thinks soaring is something they did back in WWII.

Hey look to your left yea that's me flying to an actual destination to go do something while you are circling with the crows. This forum has proven to me that in life you can keep circling or firewall it and go somewhere I choose to go far far away from the soaring lot and go places. Keep Circling........

kirk.stant

June 7th 16, 01:52 PM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 5:52:22 AM UTC-5, datruth wrote:
>
> Pilots that spend money on electronic gadgets in the delusion of safety are the stupid ones.

Really? So it's stupid to buy an electronic audio vario so you can be heads up while thermalling instead of staring at a mechanical? It's stupid to have a GPS map so you can be heads up knowing where you are instead of heads down trying to figure out where you are on a sectional? It's stupid to carry a cell phone and Spot instead of relying on luck and your boy scout skills if you landout in the middle of nowhere?

Bull****.

Retro is fun, but safer? Anyone who believes that is really delusional...

Kirk
66

kirk.stant

June 7th 16, 02:37 PM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 7:49:43 AM UTC-5, Candid Sky Productions wrote:

> You people are unbelievable....
>
> Fact of the matter is half the soaring community is a bunch of richie rich wanna be people that like to "show their tracks" and have to have the most expensive glider. Its just a matter of who has the biggest checking account. Lets not forget Oh I am the best, I stayed up the longest, Im so much better because I have 3 GPS units in my ship, you should have this or I am going to tell everyone you are unsafe, oh the FAA is gonna make you do this. No wonder why I see lots of stupid accidents happening no one actually flys the freaking airplane. I got news for you, you guys are playing with toys. You can't go anywhere in the things except for some silly task that means nothing to most people. And you are apparently making up for some sort of shortcoming. I was going to get back in the soaring again but after reading all this BS you can all shove it. (Oh yea I know some of you internet tough guys will say we don't need you Ahole, but we know your cowardly in a face to face and never have the balls to say it in person) Id rather spend my hard earned cash on a power plane then dick around flying in circles with a bunch of wanna be fell short of the line humans. Hell half of you prob can't even get a medical that's why your flying gliders. Your **** stinks just like the rest of the world get real. I hope you know that the real world thinks soaring is something they did back in WWII.
>
> Hey look to your left yea that's me flying to an actual destination to go do something while you are circling with the crows. This forum has proven to me that in life you can keep circling or firewall it and go somewhere I choose to go far far away from the soaring lot and go places. Keep Circling........

Lenny, is that you? Long time no see, buddy - we've missed your sparkling repartee and snappy wit!

not...

Kirk
(Ahole who likes to dick around going noplace in his toy ;^)

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 02:56 PM

Kirk, lets not go to extremes to prove a point. Please forgive me if I appear to have gone that path on occassion. But I think everyone, EVERYONE will agree that an audio vario is an essential item when a guy is gonna be flying in gaggles etc. we have beat this horse to death on other threads. The datruth guy I would assume agrees. But other items, not so much.

If I had a choice between a "modern" sailplane and the present state of "modern" soaring airmanship skills, or flying what you call a "retro" sailplane along with the skills most old "retro" glider flyers used to have, I will choose the old school approach every time. Old guys for the most part have been there done that enough to learn how to stay alive, and that survival is only partly enhanced by modernality.

There is great danger when money can purchase ships and systems that perform miles beyond the skill level of the jockey who's riding it. We have all seen the fatal results that have come from guys flying beyond their skill level party due to a misguided belief in their ships performance and/or their ships electronics (glide computer, stall warning, anti-colision etc). I for one would like to never hear about another stall spin fatality or misjudged final glide with disasterous results. Needless accidents that many times have their root source in overdependance on performance both aerodynamic and electrical, both at the high and low end of the performance envelope.

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 03:21 PM

Good one Kirk, I better sign my posts from now on as;
Dan a "dilusional" retro glider driver LOL Have safe flying and fast times up there buddy, I wish I was flying now instead of wasting time with these posts lol.
Dan

kirk.stant

June 7th 16, 04:10 PM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Kirk, lets not go to extremes to prove a point. Please forgive me if I appear to have gone that path on occassion. But I think everyone, EVERYONE will agree that an audio vario is an essential item when a guy is gonna be flying in gaggles etc. we have beat this horse to death on other threads. The datruth guy I would assume agrees. But other items, not so much.

Well, going to extremes to prove a point is what the interweb and RAS is all about, isn't it?

Seriously, I disagree that EVERYONE agrees about something as simple as an audio vario - if so why does anyone even buy a mechanical vario? My backup has audio and a redundant power supply - but I bet in the US most club ships don't even have an audio vario - and in our club, most of the members don't even know how to use the ones we have installed! And don't get me started on something as basic as using a radio in the pattern!

> If I had a choice between a "modern" sailplane and the present state of "modern" soaring airmanship skills, or flying what you call a "retro" sailplane along with the skills most old "retro" glider flyers used to have, I will choose the old school approach every time. Old guys for the most part have been there done that enough to learn how to stay alive, and that survival is only partly enhanced by modernality.

As I said, retro is cool, and with the requisite skills can be fun and relatively safe, but as safe as a modern glider (safety cockpit, benign stall, etc.) with modern electronics? I guess it really depends on your definition of "Safe" and risk tolerance. I'm totally with you on the most important safety feature is the pilots attitude and skills; but I also like to have technology on my side; for example, I carry a Zaon PCAS in every towplane or glider I fly in because it's cheap insurance against being centerpunched from behind by some bozo in his Cirrus staring at his fancy glass cockpit. But I'm the only towpilot in my club (or even pilot in my club) who has one - most don't even know what it is!

> There is great danger when money can purchase ships and systems that perform miles beyond the skill level of the jockey who's riding it. We have all seen the fatal results that have come from guys flying beyond their skill level party due to a misguided belief in their ships performance and/or their ships electronics (glide computer, stall warning, anti-colision etc). I for one would like to never hear about another stall spin fatality or misjudged final glide with disasterous results. Needless accidents that many times have their root source in overdependance on performance both aerodynamic and electrical, both at the high and low end of the performance envelope.

As we used to say in the Air Force, "Hamburger in any wrapper is still hamburger". A pilot with weak skills can kill himself in any glider; I seriously doubt the toys in his cockpit would be a big factor (at least he probably won't be lost when he crashes...). Newer ships are arguably easier to rig and fly than older ones - notice the reduction of crashes due to disconnected controls over the years - but our training system is still geared to turning out a pilot who can (just barely) takeoff, stay somewhere behind the towplane, do some turns and stalls, find the airfield, and land about where he wants, in a low performance glider like a 2-33 or Blanik. After that, he is on his own in most places. That's the problem, IMO. You fly for a living - that translates into currency. Many (most?) glider pilots do it as a hobby, and are often woefully out of practice most of the time. And we are surprised when they screw the pooch and buy the farm? I'm not.

Kirk
66

Ramy[_2_]

June 7th 16, 05:14 PM

Hmm, can you provide an example of even one accident which was the result of using electronics like GPS, SPOT, or Flarm?
On the other hand there were at least one pilot who was rescued thanks to spot few years ago, and clear statistics showing significant reduction in mid airs thanks to flarm. How can anyone argue against these is beyond me. If you can afford a parachute you can afford those gadgets.

Ramy

[email protected]

June 7th 16, 08:29 PM

Heres a few off the top of my head:

2015- two fatal accidents last year, one CA, one MS both involving distractions due to guys playing with their gps, both involving dusting activities in highly complex aircraft. We have had at least one fatal accident and scores of injury accidents each year due to electronics induced inattention for the past 6 years.

Heres another I was present to witness:
2000- DG100, guy spun in after release from abnormal tow, tow plane balooned up in a steep climb upon take off, glider guy released but spun, the guy survived but with back injuries, first words out of the guys mouth (i was the first on the scene), "I thought my stall warning would let me know"

Do you need more? Its endless within the power side of aviation and mostlikely more prevelent than we realize or than reported in the soaring side. The accident statistics are showing that the entire light aviation community is becoming dependant upon instrumentation to save their asses while never learning how to actually FLY the bird! (I am not talking IFR here) Example, stall spin, after 100 years of aviation and tecno improvement, still the killer of scores of aviators yearly inspite of stall warning instrumentation of various types (AOA etc).

Its time to quit the blanket statements. Electronics are fine, fill your bird to the max if you want, and continue to live in a false sense of security. I have gismos, dang near the same as you Ramy including computers, a spot and a transponder going in this fall, I use them, but dont call me or anyone who isnt equiped with all what you think they need ignorant or irresponsible.

Its a miracle that we had any competitions at all in the 60's and 70's, its a wonder we were not all lost, wandering in the desert, or dead from midairs. My oh my how did we find our way around, not run into anybody, and get reunited with our crews? Its a friggen miracle!! Maybe We should have told AJ and Dick, and Ray, and Al to just wait till 2016 when they would be safer.

kirk.stant

June 7th 16, 10:37 PM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:29:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Heres a few off the top of my head:
>
> 2015- two fatal accidents last year, one CA, one MS both involving distractions due to guys playing with their gps, both involving dusting activities in highly complex aircraft. We have had at least one fatal accident and scores of injury accidents each year due to electronics induced inattention for the past 6 years.

And how is that different from accidents caused by getting lost when all you have is an outdated sectional and a whiskey compass? Or not understanding how to use a VOR and getting lost? Technology is technology - a sectional is technology, just like a GPS - and if used incorrectly can kill you. By your logic, the GA accident rate should be going up - but it is going down, despite all the fancy distracting gizmos in the cockpit and lousy pilots!

>
> Heres another I was present to witness:
> 2000- DG100, guy spun in after release from abnormal tow, tow plane balooned up in a steep climb upon take off, glider guy released but spun, the guy survived but with back injuries, first words out of the guys mouth (i was the first on the scene), "I thought my stall warning would let me know"

Stall warning is hardly a fancy bit of electronics, power planes have had them for years. Was this a recent power conversion? Otherwise, it was just poor flying. Hardly a reason to yank stall warning systems out of all planes!

>
> Do you need more? Its endless within the power side of aviation and mostlikely more prevelent than we realize or than reported in the soaring side. The accident statistics are showing that the entire light aviation community is becoming dependant upon instrumentation to save their asses while never learning how to actually FLY the bird! (I am not talking IFR here) Example, stall spin, after 100 years of aviation and tecno improvement, still the killer of scores of aviators yearly inspite of stall warning instrumentation of various types (AOA etc).

Again, statistics do NOT support your point of view. Sure, people crash while looking at their GPS - but people used to fly into mountains because they didn't know where they were at night, too! That stinkin' GPS has probably saved way more lives than it has killed!

>
> Its time to quit the blanket statements. Electronics are fine, fill your bird to the max if you want, and continue to live in a false sense of security. I have gismos, dang near the same as you Ramy including computers, a spot and a transponder going in this fall, I use them, but dont call me or anyone who isnt equiped with all what you think they need ignorant or irresponsible.

Seems like it was the "Don't need no stinkin' tracker" voices that started with the blanket statements. Again, it's all about a pilots individual comfort, skill, and willingness to accept risk (however you define it). I use a Spot because my wife likes to know where I am, and it makes retrieves easier. Do I need it? No, but Happy Wife equals Happy Life, as the jewelry store billboard on I-70 assures me every day... And in some situations, flying "commando" IS ignorant and irresponsible, such as near Reno without a transponder, or in a race without Flarm and a tracker.

>
> Its a miracle that we had any competitions at all in the 60's and 70's, its a wonder we were not all lost, wandering in the desert, or dead from midairs. My oh my how did we find our way around, not run into anybody, and get reunited with our crews? Its a friggen miracle!! Maybe We should have told AJ and Dick, and Ray, and Al to just wait till 2016 when they would be safer.

Yeah, and you know what, back then guys got lost, died in midairs, and wandered around the desert after landouts for hours trying to reunite with their crews. Good luck turning that clock back! And yes, contests were bigger back then...

Doesn't progress suck? We should all be driving cars with no seat belts, drum brakes, and hand crank windows... they sure were safer back then! Oh, wait, I used to drive one of them (65 beetle) and loved it!!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Jonathan St. Cloud

June 8th 16, 02:13 AM

How on earth did lack of piloting skills get annexed to having a well equipped cockpit. They are separate events without a causal link. Virtually all glider pilots learn in gliders not fitted with GPS nor electronic audio varios. The march of technology has made the sport safer, radios, audio various, transponders, Flarm, GPS, spot... These have nothing to due with learning the basics of stick and rudder. If you can afford the latest, great. If you can't still good. We have several local 1-26 guys whom fly amazing distances, and we have glass guys from early glass to the latest glass flying amazing flights. All of them can fly and it doesn't matter what instruments they use. However, they all must have a spot or inreach to leave the local area, this is required from the FBO.

If someone is giving you grief, it is more about them than you. As far as the march of technology making lesser pilots, I have not witnessed this at the glider port, but multiple accidents and incidents of Air-carriers has shown this. Again this is more training and experience than instruments. I am thinking of Airfrance held aircraft in deep stall for over 3 minutes, Korean Air, couldn't even follow a VASI, recent asian air another stall from altitude, cargo carrier out of SF where the 747 lost two engines on one side, long haul pilot forgot he had rudders...

All the glider pilots I know can fly, navigate and communicate. The modern stuff is nice and I believe leads to less head down time in cockpit, folding a map, looking up freqs, ...

With no offense intended to any of the posters, but this thread has gotten senseless. If you fly without any electronics fine, but know that spot and Inreach are required in some places and are just a good idea period. So are Transponders and Flarm. I couldn't care less if you navigate by GPS, this has no effect on me.

[email protected]

June 8th 16, 03:45 AM

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 2:38:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
but I am in more danger driving to the gliderport than I am when I fly xc.

Really? I started hang gliders flying in the mid '70's and sailplanes in the late '80's. In that time I know 1 (one) person who died driving to or from the airport or flying site. (He was drunk.) The people I know that died while flying are too many to remember off the top of my head.
Steve

[email protected]

June 8th 16, 04:15 PM

Thanks for the reply s. As to hang gliding, you couldnt pay me a fortune to get into anything that depends on weight shift for control. That trully is flirting with disaster. As for sailplane flying, it is just like agricultural flying, they are both only as dangerous as you want to make them. Idiocy or arrogance (knowingly exceeding your skill level) will kill a guy in any endevor irregardless of his equipment list.

[email protected]

June 9th 16, 02:52 AM

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 8:15:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Thanks for the reply s. As to hang gliding, you couldnt pay me a fortune to get into anything that depends on weight shift for control. That trully is flirting with disaster. As for sailplane flying, it is just like agricultural flying, they are both only as dangerous as you want to make them. Idiocy or arrogance (knowingly exceeding your skill level) will kill a guy in any endevor irregardless of his equipment list.

You made the bogus claim that driving to the gliderport is more dangerous than flying XC. Please tell us all the pilots you know that had accidents driving to or from the gliderport Vs all the pilots that had accidents flying.

Dan Marotta

June 9th 16, 03:28 AM

I'm curious: How does an FBO forbid leaving the local area if an
aircraft does not have certain equipment that the FBO thinks is good?

Does he refuse a to tow the glider? He doesn't own the airport, so I
can fly there without Spot or InReach. Or /_does_/ he own the airport?
Is there some special circumstance, terrain, traffic situation, etc.,
which makes him feel the need to snoop in my cockpit? I understand the
value of a transponder around Reno and similar places.

I'm glad I don't need a tow plane any more.

On 6/7/2016 7:13 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> How on earth did lack of piloting skills get annexed to having a well equipped cockpit. They are separate events without a causal link. Virtually all glider pilots learn in gliders not fitted with GPS nor electronic audio varios. The march of technology has made the sport safer, radios, audio various, transponders, Flarm, GPS, spot... These have nothing to due with learning the basics of stick and rudder. If you can afford the latest, great. If you can't still good. We have several local 1-26 guys whom fly amazing distances, and we have glass guys from early glass to the latest glass flying amazing flights. All of them can fly and it doesn't matter what instruments they use. However, they all must have a spot or inreach to leave the local area, this is required from the FBO.
>
> If someone is giving you grief, it is more about them than you. As far as the march of technology making lesser pilots, I have not witnessed this at the glider port, but multiple accidents and incidents of Air-carriers has shown this. Again this is more training and experience than instruments. I am thinking of Airfrance held aircraft in deep stall for over 3 minutes, Korean Air, couldn't even follow a VASI, recent asian air another stall from altitude, cargo carrier out of SF where the 747 lost two engines on one side, long haul pilot forgot he had rudders...
>
> All the glider pilots I know can fly, navigate and communicate. The modern stuff is nice and I believe leads to less head down time in cockpit, folding a map, looking up freqs, ...
>
> With no offense intended to any of the posters, but this thread has gotten senseless. If you fly without any electronics fine, but know that spot and Inreach are required in some places and are just a good idea period. So are Transponders and Flarm. I couldn't care less if you navigate by GPS, this has no effect on me.
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

Ramy[_2_]

June 9th 16, 03:42 AM

An FBO or the owner can refuse to tow you without a tracker, especially after they had to spend days searching for an aircraft which did not return in two separate occasions. In both cases the pilot probably thought that he did not need another stinkin electronic gadget in their cockpit, or could not afford $10 a month. In one case the pilot was found dead, in another he was found barely alive after couple of days. Email privately if you want more info.

Ramy

BobW

June 9th 16, 06:49 AM

Since it's come up in another thread (again), and since it seems a
worthwhile topic for active soaring pilots to be giving active
thought to as the northern hemisphere soaring season gets cranking, I thought
this particular debate might be worthy of its own thread right about now.
(Goodness knows RASidents have recently seemed "winterly active" in expressing
strongly held opinions...another chance here to go for it!!!)

> [Someone] "...made the bogus claim that driving to the gliderport is more
> dangerous than flying XC. Please tell us all the pilots you know that had
> accidents driving to or from the gliderport Vs all the pilots that had
> accidents flying."

Based on the above excerpt from another thread, so far we seem to have one
vote in each camp! :)

FWIW, in the 49 years I've been driving, I've known/interacted with exactly
one (1) person subsequently killed in a vehicle crash (not a pilot; yes, he'd
been drinking.)

In my 37+ years spent soaring, I've known and interacted with
approaching-double-digits'-worth of friends & acquaintances who've died at the
controls of sailplanes...all single-glider accidents, as in no midairs.

I've also read (several times, over the years) and pondered (many more times)
Bruno Gantenbrink's thoughtful and some might say provocative take on the
question heading this thread. I've further read and pondered other heartfelt
and thoughtful expositions on the general topic of soaring's potentially
deadly risks (usually written from an XC-based and sometimes - not always -
also with a competition flavor). Most of them have been authored by people
then in current psychic pain from the recent soaring-related-deaths of
personal friends.

In my ideal world, every
"interested-in-self-education-beyond-formal-training-levels" soaring
aficionado would go out of his or her way to further self-educate on "the
deadly risk topic." By "self-educate" I mean
reading/pondering/taking-mental-decisions-beforehand, as distinct from
"OJT-motivation" (i.e. scaring themselves silly or crunching a glider or
[gasp] killing themselves before they get a chance to priorly develop "more
thoughtful motivation.")

Based on comments seen on RAS threads over time (20+ years, now?), I'd bet
Real Money a poll of RASidents would reveal more coming down on the side of
soaring being the riskier/more deadly. (In that time, RAS has lost more than
one participant via deadly soaring crash.)

Personally, I don't think it much matters which activity I (or anyone else)
consider(s) "more deadly." What matters is avoiding the deadly outcomes in
both activities.

I consider both activities sufficiently potentially deadly that I give them
both my deepest respect. Let the statisticians figure as they will...

Driving contains many more direct risks beyond my control (other drivers, many
of them drunk or [increasingly] distracted!) and is in that sense *much*
scarier to me...but not so much that I've ever felt a "safety need" to own a
vehicle weighing more than 2600 pounds ready for me to fuel & go, or even one
with airbags. And, so far, I've never needed seatbelts or airbags...though my
wife benefited from every safety feature Toyota designed into her 2005 Tacoma
which got T-boned/totaled by "an habitual scumbucket drunk" in a car ~half the
weight of the Tacoma. (Tangentially - long story - we managed to badger "the
justice system" to hold the (.237 BAC) guy accountable [for the first time in
30+ years and (considering only his DUIs) 9(+?) prior arrests]; 4-years until
recent parole - you're welcome! :))

Soaring's deadly risks are by and large controlled by Joe Pilot, and in that
sense might be thought of as containing numerically fewer potentially deadly
risks than driving. Balancing that to some extent are ground vehicles'
generally superior crashworthiness (mass, crush zones, multiple restraints,
etc.) compared to the best of sailplanes, and the complexity-adding
"3-dimensionality" aspects of flight. Arguably, weather might be considered a
wash, while almost certainly we have more practice-at/time driving.

But so what? Both activities inherently contain sufficient energies to easily
kill us...and both at probabilities sufficiently high by common measures to
get MY attention. Anyone who minimizes the risk realities of either is some
combination of: ignorant; foolish; in denial.

All that said, as already noted, I've long *felt* safer soaring than driving,
even though (IMHO) "situational awareness" works as well in a ground vehicle
as it does in a cockpit insofar as avoiding accidents...at least in the rarely
foggy (IMC mostly optional!), not-terribly-densely-populated, intermountain
western U.S.

Bob W.

Don Johnstone[_4_]

June 9th 16, 12:56 PM

Statistics are wonderful, 99% of people who move into retirement homes die
there. That has to make retirement homes the most dangerous places on
earth. Don't go there.

At 05:49 09 June 2016, BobW wrote:
>Since it's come up in another thread (again), and since it seems a
>worthwhile topic for active soaring pilots to be giving active
>thought to as the northern hemisphere soaring season gets cranking, I
>thought
>this particular debate might be worthy of its own thread right about now.
>(Goodness knows RASidents have recently seemed "winterly active" in
>expressing
>strongly held opinions...another chance here to go for it!!!)
>
>> [Someone] "...made the bogus claim that driving to the gliderport is
more
>> dangerous than flying XC. Please tell us all the pilots you know that
>had
>> accidents driving to or from the gliderport Vs all the pilots that had
>> accidents flying."
>
>Based on the above excerpt from another thread, so far we seem to have
one
>vote in each camp! :)
>
>FWIW, in the 49 years I've been driving, I've known/interacted with
exactly
>one (1) person subsequently killed in a vehicle crash (not a pilot; yes,
>he'd
>been drinking.)
>
>In my 37+ years spent soaring, I've known and interacted with
>approaching-double-digits'-worth of friends & acquaintances who've died
at
>the
>controls of sailplanes...all single-glider accidents, as in no midairs.
>
>I've also read (several times, over the years) and pondered (many more
>times)
>Bruno Gantenbrink's thoughtful and some might say provocative take on the
>question heading this thread. I've further read and pondered other
>heartfelt
>and thoughtful expositions on the general topic of soaring's potentially
>deadly risks (usually written from an XC-based and sometimes - not always
-
>also with a competition flavor). Most of them have been authored by
people
>then in current psychic pain from the recent soaring-related-deaths of
>personal friends.
>
>In my ideal world, every
>"interested-in-self-education-beyond-formal-training-levels" soaring
>aficionado would go out of his or her way to further self-educate on "the
>deadly risk topic." By "self-educate" I mean
>reading/pondering/taking-mental-decisions-beforehand, as distinct from
>"OJT-motivation" (i.e. scaring themselves silly or crunching a glider or
>[gasp] killing themselves before they get a chance to priorly develop
"more
>thoughtful motivation.")
>
>Based on comments seen on RAS threads over time (20+ years, now?), I'd
bet
>Real Money a poll of RASidents would reveal more coming down on the side
of
>soaring being the riskier/more deadly. (In that time, RAS has lost more
>than
>one participant via deadly soaring crash.)
>
>Personally, I don't think it much matters which activity I (or anyone
else)
>consider(s) "more deadly." What matters is avoiding the deadly outcomes
in
>both activities.
>
>I consider both activities sufficiently potentially deadly that I give
them
>both my deepest respect. Let the statisticians figure as they will...
>
>Driving contains many more direct risks beyond my control (other drivers,
>many
>of them drunk or [increasingly] distracted!) and is in that sense *much*
>scarier to me...but not so much that I've ever felt a "safety need" to
own
>a
>vehicle weighing more than 2600 pounds ready for me to fuel & go, or even
>one
>with airbags. And, so far, I've never needed seatbelts or
airbags...though
>my
>wife benefited from every safety feature Toyota designed into her 2005
>Tacoma
>which got T-boned/totaled by "an habitual scumbucket drunk" in a car
~half
>the
>weight of the Tacoma. (Tangentially - long story - we managed to badger
>"the
>justice system" to hold the (.237 BAC) guy accountable [for the first
time
>in
>30+ years and (considering only his DUIs) 9(+?) prior arrests]; 4-years
>until
>recent parole - you're welcome! :))
>
>Soaring's deadly risks are by and large controlled by Joe Pilot, and in
>that
>sense might be thought of as containing numerically fewer potentially
>deadly
>risks than driving. Balancing that to some extent are ground vehicles'
>generally superior crashworthiness (mass, crush zones, multiple
restraints,
>etc.) compared to the best of sailplanes, and the complexity-adding
>"3-dimensionality" aspects of flight. Arguably, weather might be
considered
>a
>wash, while almost certainly we have more practice-at/time driving.
>
>But so what? Both activities inherently contain sufficient energies to
>easily
>kill us...and both at probabilities sufficiently high by common measures
to
>
>get MY attention. Anyone who minimizes the risk realities of either is
some
>
>combination of: ignorant; foolish; in denial.
>
>All that said, as already noted, I've long *felt* safer soaring than
>driving,
>even though (IMHO) "situational awareness" works as well in a ground
>vehicle
>as it does in a cockpit insofar as avoiding accidents...at least in the
>rarely
>foggy (IMC mostly optional!), not-terribly-densely-populated,
intermountain
>western U.S.
>
>Bob W.
>

Bruce Hoult

June 9th 16, 02:01 PM

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 8:50:03 AM UTC+3, BobW wrote:
> FWIW, in the 49 years I've been driving, I've known/interacted with exactly
> one (1) person subsequently killed in a vehicle crash (not a pilot; yes, he'd
> been drinking.)

Yes, I don't know who is getting killed in road crashes. Everyone in NZ drives, but the only person I've known who was killed in one was a highschool friend who died in a motorcycle crash while still in highschool. To no-one's surprise, unfortunately. And another of our circle was drowned in a white water kayaking incident while we were at university.

I've been a member of the same gliding club with usally 80-100ish members since 1985. There have been a few gliders damaged, but the worst injury I recall was a broken ankle. A dozen or so of our members regularly do cross-country in the mountains, visit places such as Omarama, take part in the nationals (often winning or placing highly in them).

A number of other clubs in NZ have had fatal accidents, and I don't think they operate differently to us, so maybe we're just lucky.

Several of our club members have died in powered aircraft crashes, unrelated to gliding (and the ones I can think of were in the pacific islands and Africa).

> Personally, I don't think it much matters which activity I (or anyone else)
> consider(s) "more deadly." What matters is avoiding the deadly outcomes in
> both activities.

I agree.

[email protected]

June 9th 16, 03:24 PM

Ramy quote:
"An FBO or the owner can refuse to tow you without a tracker, especially after they had to spend days searching for an aircraft which did not return in two separate occasions. In both cases the pilot probably thought that he did not need another stinkin electronic gadget in their cockpit, or could not afford $10 a month. In one case the pilot was found dead, in another he was found barely alive after couple of days."

As to if they want to refuse me a tow, that is their perogative. They own the business, they can do what they want. I have no problem with that. As for an official competition, same thing, whatever rules they want to set is their business, and I can choose to participate or not.

BUT, we sure are turning into a nanny state way faster than I realized. When I fly, I am on my own, I dont want anyone feeling obliged to look for me. I dont want outside folks setting up their own standards as to what they think constitutes an emergency involving me! Its no damn business where I fly or how I get there!

After working search and rescue for the last 20 years, I sure as hell dont depend on them. I hate to be brutal but sometimes the truth is brutal. The two incidents you mention are case in point. The dead guy screwed the pooch from the start so no amount of rescue is gonna help him, the second guy's life was also in his own hands. I dont know the particulars of his injury producing accident, I am sorry he got hurt and was lost and thankful he survived to fly another day, but it was HIS accident. Do not lay rules or requirments on me and other responsible pilots due to the poor decisions of others. I dont need rules committies or the FAA or other peoples opinions to "save me" from myself. I dont expect others to babysit me and I sure as hell hope you dont either!

I am no fool, as for "stinking electronics" (your words) I utilize "safety" oriented equipment, Spot, transponder etc, I have invested my cash into these systems but I do it knowing those tools are way way secondary to having my head screwed on straight when flying. We can armchair all we want after the fact, but the fact remains dang near every accident involving a sailplane boils down to pilot error. Prevent the pilot error and you prevent the accident. No accident is ever really "accidental".

Tango Eight

June 9th 16, 03:28 PM

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

> this particular debate might be worthy of its own thread right about now.

A better use of time might be to (re)read the "Gods of the Copy Book Headings".

I think the unstated fourth certain thing Kipling refers to anticipated r.a.s. :-)

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[email protected]

June 9th 16, 03:50 PM

Yes Evan this thread has gone into the Realm of the Ridiculous. Hopefully it doesnt degrade into the Lord of the Flies. Or I should say Lord of the Fliers lol.
Cheers

Dan Marotta

June 9th 16, 04:50 PM

How about simply - aware of the risks and accepts them as part of the
price of soaring? Is that minimizing the risk realities?

Otherwise I think that was a well stated case.

On 6/8/2016 11:49 PM, BobW wrote:
> Anyone who minimizes the risk realities of either is some combination
> of: ignorant; foolish; in denial.

--
Dan, 5J

Andrew Ainslie

June 9th 16, 08:07 PM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 3:12:28 PM UTC-4, Candid Sky Productions wrote:
> I do think so and I think the reliance on some of this technology is absolutely the problem today.

What problem exactly, Candid?

Ramy[_2_]

June 9th 16, 08:57 PM

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 7:24:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Ramy quote:
> "An FBO or the owner can refuse to tow you without a tracker, especially after they had to spend days searching for an aircraft which did not return in two separate occasions. In both cases the pilot probably thought that he did not need another stinkin electronic gadget in their cockpit, or could not afford $10 a month. In one case the pilot was found dead, in another he was found barely alive after couple of days."
>
> As to if they want to refuse me a tow, that is their perogative. They own the business, they can do what they want. I have no problem with that. As for an official competition, same thing, whatever rules they want to set is their business, and I can choose to participate or not.
>
> BUT, we sure are turning into a nanny state way faster than I realized. When I fly, I am on my own, I dont want anyone feeling obliged to look for me. I dont want outside folks setting up their own standards as to what they think constitutes an emergency involving me! Its no damn business where I fly or how I get there!
>
> After working search and rescue for the last 20 years, I sure as hell dont depend on them. I hate to be brutal but sometimes the truth is brutal. The two incidents you mention are case in point. The dead guy screwed the pooch from the start so no amount of rescue is gonna help him, the second guy's life was also in his own hands. I dont know the particulars of his injury producing accident, I am sorry he got hurt and was lost and thankful he survived to fly another day, but it was HIS accident. Do not lay rules or requirments on me and other responsible pilots due to the poor decisions of others. I dont need rules committies or the FAA or other peoples opinions to "save me" from myself. I dont expect others to babysit me and I sure as hell hope you dont either!
>
> I am no fool, as for "stinking electronics" (your words) I utilize "safety" oriented equipment, Spot, transponder etc, I have invested my cash into these systems but I do it knowing those tools are way way secondary to having my head screwed on straight when flying. We can armchair all we want after the fact, but the fact remains dang near every accident involving a sailplane boils down to pilot error. Prevent the pilot error and you prevent the accident. No accident is ever really "accidental".

Whether you want it or not, the reality is that if you dont return and no one heard from you, there are going to be multiple folks impacted, especially if you fly at a popular gliderport, and even more so if you are participating in a soaring event. Your buddies will likely be grounded due to SAR TFR and will spend time and money looking for you instead of flying (Remember Steve Fossett)? Been there, done that, don't want to repeat that.

Ramy

[email protected]

June 9th 16, 09:17 PM

I've Been there done that on the Fossett fiasco as well as many other ELT and non-ELT chases.

Jonathan St. Cloud

June 9th 16, 09:46 PM

Dear Dan:
The FBO leases the airport and they have the safety of their clients in mind when they make rules. I have not inquired as to how they enforce the rules as I respect the FBO and their rules. I like flying there and the FBO and family are very good people. If I was to speculate I would assume you cannot get a tow without the right equipment. I have never been ramped checked for equipment, compliance is expected and I certainly would not do anything to circumvent the rules. If you are flying xc a tracker is a good idea, weather or not you can self launch.

Kind regards,
Jon

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 7:28:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I'm curious:Â* How does an FBO forbid leaving the local area if an
> aircraft does not have certain equipment that the FBO thinks is
> good?
>
> Does he refuse a to tow the glider?Â* He doesn't own the airport,
> so I can fly there without Spot or InReach.Â* Or does
> he own the airport?Â* Is there some special circumstance, terrain,
> traffic situation, etc., which makes him feel the need to snoop in
> my cockpit?Â* I understand the value of a transponder around Reno
> and similar places.
>
> I'm glad I don't need a tow plane any more.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/7/2016 7:13 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud
> wrote:
>
>
>
> How on earth did lack of piloting skills get annexed to having a well equipped cockpit. They are separate events without a causal link. Virtually all glider pilots learn in gliders not fitted with GPS nor electronic audio varios. The march of technology has made the sport safer, radios, audio various, transponders, Flarm, GPS, spot... These have nothing to due with learning the basics of stick and rudder. If you can afford the latest, great. If you can't still good. We have several local 1-26 guys whom fly amazing distances, and we have glass guys from early glass to the latest glass flying amazing flights. All of them can fly and it doesn't matter what instruments they use. However, they all must have a spot or inreach to leave the local area, this is required from the FBO.
>
> If someone is giving you grief, it is more about them than you. As far as the march of technology making lesser pilots, I have not witnessed this at the glider port, but multiple accidents and incidents of Air-carriers has shown this. Again this is more training and experience than instruments. I am thinking of Airfrance held aircraft in deep stall for over 3 minutes, Korean Air, couldn't even follow a VASI, recent asian air another stall from altitude, cargo carrier out of SF where the 747 lost two engines on one side, long haul pilot forgot he had rudders...
>
> All the glider pilots I know can fly, navigate and communicate. The modern stuff is nice and I believe leads to less head down time in cockpit, folding a map, looking up freqs, ...
>
> With no offense intended to any of the posters, but this thread has gotten senseless. If you fly without any electronics fine, but know that spot and Inreach are required in some places and are just a good idea period. So are Transponders and Flarm. I couldn't care less if you navigate by GPS, this has no effect on me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

[email protected]

June 9th 16, 11:34 PM

Hi Jon, i dont disagree. Having a tracker is a good idea when flying xc. And no I have never been denied service anywhere. But I wonder how the rationale works out long haul. Tracking systems are not a FAA requirement, they are just a good idea. Does that FBO inspect all the aircraft that come through and refuse to sell fuel if a ship is not up to their standards? I am sure this is not the case and that the folks are good people but you get my point.

What makes a sailplane such a special case? Just cause I have no engine, does that make it less safe to do a little xc flight? We all know days when even a tin can can cruise around a 100km no sweat. Secondly, what constitutes xc? Is it one thermal away from home, 10, etc. xc for me and a 1-26 is "local flying" for a js1. You see the predicament with trying to make arbitrary decisions regarding what is or is not needed in terms of equipment.

If my arm was twisted and the FAA said I had to have a system in my glider, I would feel fine with simply putting a portable ELT in my bird. Simple, small, proven tecnology, no monthly maintenance fees. and some are mobile systems that can be taken with if hiking out and hurt.

Dan Marotta

June 10th 16, 01:14 AM

Thanks Jon.

What people seem to miss is that my questions should answered at face
value. You did that and I appreciate it. The original post simply said
"the FBO" which, in the vast majority of aviation, is simply a business
on an airport, not the owner or leasee. I agree that the FBO in this
case has every right to allow or bar anyone for any reason that he
chooses (no shirt, no shoes, no service). Likewise, I would respect the
owner/leasee's wishes.

On 6/9/2016 2:46 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Dear Dan:
> The FBO leases the airport and they have the safety of their clients in mind when they make rules. I have not inquired as to how they enforce the rules as I respect the FBO and their rules. I like flying there and the FBO and family are very good people. If I was to speculate I would assume you cannot get a tow without the right equipment. I have never been ramped checked for equipment, compliance is expected and I certainly would not do anything to circumvent the rules. If you are flying xc a tracker is a good idea, weather or not you can self launch.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jon
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 7:28:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I'm curious: How does an FBO forbid leaving the local area if an
>> aircraft does not have certain equipment that the FBO thinks is
>> good?
>>
>> Does he refuse a to tow the glider? He doesn't own the airport,
>> so I can fly there without Spot or InReach. Or does
>> he own the airport? Is there some special circumstance, terrain,
>> traffic situation, etc., which makes him feel the need to snoop in
>> my cockpit? I understand the value of a transponder around Reno
>> and similar places.
>>
>> I'm glad I don't need a tow plane any more.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/7/2016 7:13 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> How on earth did lack of piloting skills get annexed to having a well equipped cockpit. They are separate events without a causal link. Virtually all glider pilots learn in gliders not fitted with GPS nor electronic audio varios. The march of technology has made the sport safer, radios, audio various, transponders, Flarm, GPS, spot... These have nothing to due with learning the basics of stick and rudder. If you can afford the latest, great. If you can't still good. We have several local 1-26 guys whom fly amazing distances, and we have glass guys from early glass to the latest glass flying amazing flights. All of them can fly and it doesn't matter what instruments they use. However, they all must have a spot or inreach to leave the local area, this is required from the FBO.
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>> If someone is giving you grief, it is more about them than you. As far as the march of technology making lesser pilots, I have not witnessed this at the glider port, but multiple accidents and incidents of Air-carriers has shown this. Again this is more training and experience than instruments. I am thinking of Airfrance held aircraft in deep stall for over 3 minutes, Korean Air, couldn't even follow a VASI, recent asian air another stall from altitude, cargo carrier out of SF where the 747 lost two engines on one side, long haul pilot forgot he had rudders...
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>> All the glider pilots I know can fly, navigate and communicate. The modern stuff is nice and I believe leads to less head down time in cockpit, folding a map, looking up freqs, ...
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>> With no offense intended to any of the posters, but this thread has gotten senseless. If you fly without any electronics fine, but know that spot and Inreach are required in some places and are just a good idea period. So are Transponders and Flarm. I couldn't care less if you navigate by GPS, this has no effect on me.
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>> --
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>> Dan, 5J

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Dan, 5J

[email protected]

June 10th 16, 04:10 PM

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 6:34:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> If my arm was twisted and the FAA said I had to have a system in my glider, I would feel fine with simply putting a portable ELT in my bird. Simple, small, proven tecnology, no monthly maintenance fees. and some are mobile systems that can be taken with if hiking out and hurt.

- right, except that it also costs $1000 (for a modern unit with 406 MHz and GPS), while a PLB (basically the same tech minus the impact switch) is $250.

[email protected]

June 10th 16, 05:14 PM

True but I think the feds would ve satisfied with the elt approach and indtalation can be done by the owner with no stc bull to deal with. Its already proven and accepted tecnology as least as far as the feds opinion.

In actual use I prefer the older freq units, especially for work in densely vegitative or canyon terrain. The higher freq new units do not propigate very well in those terrains. We had a king air geophysical survey plane crash in guyana SA, they had both the new and the old freq units. We were able to get something of a spotty trans on the older lower freq unit, nothing in the high freq. While both are "strictly" line of sight, the lower freq does bend around and thru terrain features better.

[email protected]

June 10th 16, 05:38 PM

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 12:14:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> ... We had a king air geophysical survey plane crash in guyana SA, they had both the new and the old freq units. We were able to get something of a spotty trans on the older lower freq unit, nothing in the high freq. While both are "strictly" line of sight, the lower freq does bend around and thru terrain features better.

- did the SAR satellites pick up the 406 MHz signal in that case?

[email protected]

June 10th 16, 06:05 PM

Moshe no thats the problem. That freq has a very hard time penetrating thru a heavy vegitative cover.

June 10th 16, 07:31 PM

We must enjoy a bit of comedy.
Recouping:

The initial question was answered by a website issue and a larger than usual drinking water container.

Hopefully the rich buggers who can afford anything accusation wasn't aimed at myself or Ramy. Just a couple of everyday people having fun.

Lenny The Lurker was accused of showing up!
Where's Al MacDonald? We should work PW5s, Geese at 18000', etc. into this act.

Now it appears the loudest argument against trackers is saying ELTs don't work.

Jim
Coming up next: How to cure the World of all known diseases.

[email protected]

June 10th 16, 07:41 PM

LOL, yeh JS and to think it was all your fault, you started this mess LOL,
Cheers from:

Dan, the goose lovin pw5 driver waiting for the second Act of this comedy.

K m

June 11th 16, 03:44 AM

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:49:13 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Well Noel thanks for the response but it looks like the only guy getting "bitchy n using foul language is you. As to opinions like Dan M and others and myself, they arent "bitchy", they are just bringing to mind a different persoective that may get a guy thinking along another avenue regarding his/her survival.

Ag or Dan or whatever your name is, Tell us how complaining about equipment others are using is bad and then admitting you carry the same equipment. But of course by virtue of your superior skill you don't actually NEED this equipment (Buy carry it anyways). I guess you should explain how this adds any "Perspective" (Other than wanting to hear yourself argue). You did this on another thread and ended up contradicting yourself.

[email protected]

June 11th 16, 05:03 AM

Answer me this KM, how come you always make an ass of yourself stirring up **** on a continual bases when everyone else has cooled down and is able to at least understand (irregardless of whether they agree or not) the full character of these posts? Most folks here can debate issues from a mature platform and can cool down when needed to restore a semblance of openness. Maybe your inferiority complex gets the best of you at times.

In this particular post topic, possibly you cant understand the concept that something can be usefull but should not be mandatory. I have stated in post after post that I have a whole cadre of electronic aids in my bird which I use but DO NOT depend my life upon. You continually miss this in the posts. Are you able to comprehend those words or has too much EMF from all of your electronics affected your ablity to read the words?

I listen and post on sites like this due to the fact that it is helpfull to be exposed to perspectives and opinions from a variety of vectors, some I agree with, some I dont but every once in awhile there is a nugget of wisdom that someone shares that is of value and that I can incorporate into my own philosophy of flight. Possibly it comes from an experience I have not personaly had, possibly one comes from someone who flies an entirely different way than I do. But I read and reflect with an open mind and try to see the other guys perspective and its merrits before I make comment.

I am sorry that your mental constipation prevents you from having this helpfull perspective toward furthering your aeronautical knowledge base. I just sincerely hope you do not fly with same type of blinders on that you seem to have here. That my friend is an accident waiting to happen that no amount of electronics or debates will help you with.

K m

June 11th 16, 04:58 PM

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:03:44 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Answer me this KM, how come you always make an ass of yourself...........

Ag,
I thought we had a real breakthrough in our relationship on the last thread and now you call me an "Ass". Dude, I'm hurt!
Ive been involved in CAP probably longer than you have and can state without reservation that modern technology is making the CAP mission obsolete. Further, you need to ask where Soaring (And many other sports)would be without GPS. I realize a gifted pilot like yourself has no need for flight planning and analysis software but many of us use this as a crutch to improve our XC speed and distance.

As an interesting side note, Many Air Carriers are now authorized to use stand alone GPS and RNP approaches to determine Alternate mins. The flight plan has to include Notams for GPS coverage for the ETA. I know most of this thread has to do with jamming but maybe the coverage Notams would be helpful to the soaring community.