What's the going price for a used SN10b?

[[email protected]]

What's the going price for a used SN10b in good condition? Am redoing my panel and may end up selling...

Thanks,
Allan

[K m]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 10:06:04 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> What's the going price for a used SN10b in good condition? Am redoing my panel and may end up selling...
>
> Thanks,
> Allan

Two years ago I let a 10 (Not the B) go for 800 with all the accessories. The last two our club got were donated for free. These are getting pretty old and the user interface is dated. IIRC a 10B was offered free on RAS to a needy junior pilot.
Not trying to be discouraging but please don't get your hopes up.

[Craig Funston]

Please send me a note at nimbus3mail at that large search engine dot com. I've got some interest in it myself & we've also got a deserving junior that could put it to good use.

Thanks,
Craig
7Q

[[email protected]]

I'd say $1000 for a B with USB brick and remote............may have need for another one in a month or two. Give me a shout at >>> johnsinclair210(at)yahoo.com

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 7:28:50 PM UTC-6, K m wrote:
> ...These are getting pretty old and the user interface is dated.

Tell that to the guy who just won the 15-meter nationals with one.
But I guess you know better than he...

[Sean[_2_]]

I have one for sale, including the vario, and a back seat repeater... All updates, manuals and cables. Make offer via email please

[[email protected]]

I get a chuckle when I see "extra" add on features offered for one of the most popular "entertainment centers" for $650 to $1650 a pop. Ninety percent of the offered up- grades are in the lowly obsolete SN-10.
JJ

[K m]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:36:39 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:

> Tell that to the guy who just won the 15-meter nationals with one.
> But I guess you know better than he..

Oh Boy, Here we go again...,My computer can beat up your computer ;). Here is the question, If the guy had been using a Clearnav for decades and won would THAT make IT the better computer? At the WGC ALL of the top finishers in ALL of the classes used the LxNav 9000. Does that make the 9000 better?
Congrats to the winner of the recent Nats of course but if he had a modern panel would his score be even better (And with dramatically less workload)? Would you trust the antique screen on the 10B to keep you out of Class B or Restricted? (No thanks)
I think alot boils down to personal preference. My first ship had an old M Nav and I loved the thing (And yes, At contests friends would look at the knobs and switches on it and laugh) but I had no illusions that it compared with anything modern. My next ship had the exalted SN10 and I REALLY liked that as well until the Volkslogger (And lets face it, The Volkslogger was obsolete when it was new) plug went out and I got a case of sticker shock when I found out how much just a plug, or a new wiring harness to hook up to the PF would cost. From there I took a crowbar to the 10 and went with LxNav and have never looked back. Each system was better than the last and while the 10B was ground breaking when it came out that was 30 years ago. Can I insult any other soaring appliances while I am here;).
Oh yea, I was at the Nats and came in just about last (But it was my first Nats). (Laughs)I blame it on the fact that I wasn't using an SN10B

[BruceGreeff]

And my 2c worth.

I have used only a small selection of these toys, but I did once
specialise in user interface design.

Recently took the plunge and installed a LX9050 to replace the VERY
obsolete Lx20 that was doing fine with XCSoar on the phone.

Two observations. Workload is proportional to how well you know the kit.
For the first while the much better user interface on the new Lx was a
lot more work. Partly because there is so much you can set and play
with. And you need to set it up to be simple to use , because
distraction can kill you. Think texting while driving. So - it actually
takes more work getting it set up right. Conversely, for the casual user
it is much more intuitive.

So - intro to the Sn10b was in a Duodiscus in Omarama, and boy was I
glad to have someone in the back who knew how to use it for the first
while. With the 9050 it is pretty intuitive, and you can work out what
stuff means. With the SN10 (or LX20) - if it wasn't on the current
screen, then the chances of getting it right versus thrashing around in
various highly detailed pages, trying to read a dense screen while
trying to avoid terrain, and not go over that ridge that you were warned
would lead to a certain land out... Half the time, what I was looking
for was one of the numbers that was on the current page - I just did not
recognise it.

I am sure familiarity would make it a great instrument. In many ways it
consolidates information you want together. But times have moved on -
and user interfaces and functionality have become a lot better. So you
have an easier time working out how to do something on the fly with a
modern instrument - and the screen is much better - and faster.

A pilot who knows his instrument and knows how to get the most out of it
without having to think too hard about how the thing works is going to
do better than the person who is having to think too hard about the
instrument, rather than concentrating on the task on hand. If that
instrument is an SN10B - that is great. It's longevity is proof of the
quality of the original design.

Strangely enough, the most useful thing for me is still sitting with a
map and getting to know the area, and features and landable areas. That
way you still have situational awareness. The guys who have no idea
where they are when the entertainment centre shuts down, do worry me.

Interestingly - in Omarama the locals had made a paper booklet, indexed
to the SN10 - and you could "go to" the escape route, and nearest
landable spot with a single button selection - and it would tell you the
page to look on the booklet so you could see photos, and all the rich
visual stuff you cant see on a tiny LCD.



On 2016-07-03 21:13, K m wrote:
> On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:36:39 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
>
>> Tell that to the guy who just won the 15-meter nationals with one.
>> But I guess you know better than he..
>
> Oh Boy, Here we go again...,My computer can beat up your computer ;). Here is the question, If the guy had been using a Clearnav for decades and won would THAT make IT the better computer? At the WGC ALL of the top finishers in ALL of the classes used the LxNav 9000. Does that make the 9000 better?
> Congrats to the winner of the recent Nats of course but if he had a modern panel would his score be even better (And with dramatically less workload)? Would you trust the antique screen on the 10B to keep you out of Class B or Restricted? (No thanks)
> I think alot boils down to personal preference. My first ship had an old M Nav and I loved the thing (And yes, At contests friends would look at the knobs and switches on it and laugh) but I had no illusions that it compared with anything modern. My next ship had the exalted SN10 and I REALLY liked that as well until the Volkslogger (And lets face it, The Volkslogger was obsolete when it was new) plug went out and I got a case of sticker shock when I found out how much just a plug, or a new wiring harness to hook up to the PF would cost. From there I took a crowbar to the 10 and went with LxNav and have never looked back. Each system was better than the last and while the 10B was ground breaking when it came out that was 30 years ago. Can I insult any other soaring appliances while I am here;).
> Oh yea, I was at the Nats and came in just about last (But it was my first Nats). (Laughs)I blame it on the fact that I wasn't using an SN10B
>
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

The posters referring to large display instruments as “entertainment centers” is the glider pilot equivalent of penis envy. While the SN-10b was state of the art for many years, technology has progressed. Large display glass is the present and future plain and simple. To call modern computers “entertainment centers” is frankly passive aggressive, you are insulting those that choose new technology over older technology. The new instruments are highly programmable to give too much information or just the required for each pilots’ desires on multiple pages including a photo of the turn point or airport if so desired. Also, the large format can be configured to be readable without reading glasses, which substantially reduces head down time. These computers, will show if you can clear high ground before your target airport, clearly show Flarm traffic, airspace, gives both voice and alarm alerts…. I highly recommend reading a manual to see what they can do.

If you want to stay with the SN-10b fine, I will not insult or belittle you for your choice, I expect the same courtesy.

By way of real world example let me illustrate a difference in the SN-10b to the newer larger format systems. I seem to recall a pilot in the 2014 nationals in Minden suffering a 1,000 point penalty for flying through restricted airspace. I am sure this pilot was well aware of how to operate his SN-10b. The new large format displays will warn you in both voice, alarm and display going red when you get within a pilot defined distance from such airspace. You would have to be brain dead not to understand and react to the larger format warning of airspace, or traffic.
The progression of change remains ever present, clocks that bind will be left to rust.

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 6:59:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I get a chuckle when I see "extra" add on features offered for one of the most popular "entertainment centers" for $650 to $1650 a pop. Ninety percent of the offered up- grades are in the lowly obsolete SN-10.
> JJ

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 7/4/2016 11:54 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> By way of real world example let me illustrate a difference in the SN-10b
> to the newer larger format systems. I seem to recall a pilot in the 2014
> nationals in Minden suffering a 1,000 point penalty for flying through
> restricted airspace. I am sure this pilot was well aware of how to operate
> his SN-10b. The new large format displays will warn you in both voice,
> alarm and display going red when you get within a pilot defined distance
> from such airspace. You would have to be brain dead not to understand and
> react to the larger format warning of airspace, or traffic.

Curious the mention of inadvertently busting restricted airspace should arise
on the U.S.' Independence Day. I guess we're not supposed to bust it,
regardless of how independent we are, huh?

OK, so my attempt at humor aside, in all seriousness and judging solely from
contest reports in "Soaring" magazine, the regularity with which that
particular peccadillo has occurred over the years (inadvertently busting
restricted airspace, I mean) has long puzzled me. Whether one had an SN-10 of
any ilk, the latest whiz-bang, full-color-w.-audio-alert "entertainment
system," or simply paper dinosaurs (charts), might there be a RASident with
first-hand familiarity to describe how it came to happen?

I ask as someone who had it beat into his skull upon first flying from the
Boulder (CO) municipal airport that the locale abounded with restricted
airspace - thanks to (usta be) the old Stapleton Airport and now DIA - and
"fer criminy's sake, don't go busting it and screwing things up for the rest
of us glider pilots because you're a scofflaw or idiot!" So I made sure I
didn't, to the point one day of nearly landing out beneath a layer of
Stapleton's (former) TCA when unable to sustain southbound in the hills (west
of Stapleton's controlled wedding cake). Got lucky and (slowly) worked my way
to beneath a higher layer, and eventually back beyond the perimeter. Hadda go
all the way around it to get back home. Point being, I was *very* aware where
it was.

So, sure it wasn't a contest. Hence no pleading "geographical ignorance," or
"middle-of-nowhere absence of geographical helpful-hints," or "mental
overload," or "trying to not lose points," or some such. But I really and
truly do have difficulty imagining a personal scenario where - in a
*Nationals* fer-heaven's-sake - I'd inadvertently bust restricted
airspace...and in a manner that could be proven, no less, whether TCA or PCA
or whatever, regardless of navigation aids. What am I missing?

Bob - as imperfect as the next person - W.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Well just clarify, many have busted airspace or gotten lost, a good friend of mine was hopelessly lost over the Nevada nuclear test range, quite a land out story. Anyone can make mistake and I certainly did not mean to call into question anyones' airmanship, or thought process, it was merely a tool as other's have used to illustrate functionality of various instruments.

[K m]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 7:59:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> I get a chuckle when I see "extra" add on features offered for one of the most popular "entertainment centers" for $650 to $1650 a pop. Ninety percent of the offered up- grades are in the lowly obsolete SN-10.
JJ

Let me clarify a bit. Here is one of the things that turned me off to Ilec. A few years ago when the SN-10 was still available new I looked up pricing and a complete system with the Volkslogger (The only unit compatible with the SN-10) was around 6 grand. Hell, the converter required to plug in a thumb drive was $300! (With the new stuff you can use an SD card right into the instrument for free.)
With the modern integrated units in the $4000 at the time I thought I was missing something. Turns out I wasn't, The 10B was just crazy overpriced for the functionality. Every year LxNav puts out Firmware updates (For free) that enhances and adds features. We can argue who has the best Speed to Fly Vario but I will state with confidence that for the size the S7/S8 gives more info in a 57MM instrument than anyone. All at a glance no less. In the club ships one must scroll through several pages of the SN-10 for the same SA.
Another thing I noticed was that about 80 to 90% of the SN-10 guys use a PDA/PNA with their favorite software. I felt that if I were to do this as well, why bother with the Ilec at that point?

[Sean[_2_]]

Having complete, high quality information including terrain clearance and glide range displayed in an efficient manner is a very, very nice to have. The brightness of the screen and the stick mounted control interface is everything you might expect it to be!

I just gave in and replaced my SN10b/Oudie with a CN2 before Nephi and was thoroughly, thouroughly impressed by the CN2 and vario. I had only one day to practice a short self made AAT task before jumping in. It was absolutely FLAWLESS. Nothing wrong with the SN10 for flatlands but the CN2 is without question simpler and more relaxing to manage, especially in terms of AAT or MAT tasks. It is a great soaring computer. The SN10 is a very good computer, but is not great now that I have seen the CN2.

Our "entertainment centers" are certainly an investment but they are also amazingly valuable. Oddly, the CN2 is not more complex, it was actually amazingly simple to use. Even simpler that the SN10 but with way more power. It was night and day for me to be honest compared to my Oudie/SN10b. I was hyper familiar with my SN10/Oudie but immediately my CN2 was better. Immediately, right out of the box. I had a new level of situational awareness and ease of use with it. I was immediately comfortable. When you get a second to glance into the cockpit (fairly rare in a contest), the info needed is instantaneous and clear!

I don't mean to be to positive about it, but the experience I have had this far has been nothing short of highly delightful.

For whatever it is worth...

Sean

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> Well just [to] clarify, many have busted airspace or gotten lost, a good
> friend of mine was hopelessly lost over the Nevada nuclear test range,
> quite a land out story. Anyone can make mistake and I certainly did not
> mean to call into question anyones' airmanship, or thought process, it was
> merely a tool as other's have used to illustrate functionality of various
> instruments.
>

"Roger that,and understood," on the "not mean[ing] to call into question
anyone's airmanship, or thought processes..." Nor was my earlier bemusement at
how the metronomic regularity with which airspace violations have appeared in
"Soaring" mag contest writeups gratuitously meant in the "You dumb $#@t!"
genre. It just has long puzzled me. And, yeah, I understand Nevada generally
lacks "manmade ground features helpful for navigation." I also understand the
rationale - arguably "contest-useful" some years ago - that pushed the 17,999'
limit in booming western conditions "in the middle of nowhere" when so-doing
stood a chance of boosting one's daily contest performance in the absence of
draconian point penalties. But many of the penalties passingly noted in
"Soaring" (and continuingly more recently on the web site) occurred "east of
the Mississippi."

So - and I recognize my bemusement is likely to remain unaddressed on this
forum - my puzzlement remains. What leads to soaring pilots busting airspace
boundaries?

Bob W.

[Dan Marotta]

What leads to soaring pilots busting airspace boundaries?
>
> Bob W.

Well... One reason would be distraction. Last month, cruising home
from Minden in my Stemme at 17,500' MSL, I got involved with changing
something on my Streak/XCSoar. I looked up at the panel to see the
altitude at 17,990'! I quickly pushed over. Fortunately the altitude
reported by my transponder was significantly lower.
--
Dan, 5J

[BobW]

On 7/6/2016 9:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> What leads to soaring pilots busting airspace boundaries?
>>
>> Bob W.
>
> Well... One reason would be distraction. Last month, cruising home from
> Minden in my Stemme at 17,500' MSL, I got involved with changing something
> on my Streak/XCSoar. I looked up at the panel to see the altitude at
> 17,990'! I quickly pushed over. Fortunately the altitude reported by my
> transponder was significantly lower.

Thanks for the data point, Dan. Your vignette doesn't surprise me, people and
reality being what they are. (There might *BE* something to piloting's "Task
Prioritization Theory," particularly when it comes to aviating near thin
margins! :) )

Bob W.

[Craig Funston]

On Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 6:57:20 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 7/6/2016 9:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> What leads to soaring pilots busting airspace boundaries?
> >>
> >> Bob W.
> >
> > Well... One reason would be distraction. Last month, cruising home from
> > Minden in my Stemme at 17,500' MSL, I got involved with changing something
> > on my Streak/XCSoar. I looked up at the panel to see the altitude at
> > 17,990'! I quickly pushed over. Fortunately the altitude reported by my
> > transponder was significantly lower.
>
> Thanks for the data point, Dan. Your vignette doesn't surprise me, people and
> reality being what they are. (There might *BE* something to piloting's "Task
> Prioritization Theory," particularly when it comes to aviating near thin
> margins! :) )
>
> Bob W.

I'm looking for a used SN-10B if anyone's got one collecting dust or will be switching instruments soon. Please email me cfunston redpointstructures.

Cheers,
Craig

[Sean[_2_]]

I have 2.

[Craig Funston]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 8:51:20 PM UTC-7, Sean wrote:
> I have 2.

Thanks Sean, I've sent an email so we can correspond offgroup.