Rocket launching of gliders ? Anyone know if it's been done before ?

[Jason Armistead]

An unusual historical question for the combined genius of the list ...

While visiting Ray Ash at Gulgong on Saturday (to scan some great old
photos of the early days of Southern Cross Gliding Club for our Back
To Camden Week starting 20th September), we were looking through Ray's
early log book.

It's a British Gliding Association one, marked as 3rd Reprint 1949.

On the inside front cover, it lists the Types of Launch as:

C = Catapult
W = Winch
M = Motor car-tow
A = Aero-tow

and

R = Rocket assisted

OK, while I can accept that catapult might be another word for Bungy
launching, I was a bit taken aback by the notion of launching a glider
with a ROCKET ! Ray mentioned he'd never really noticed that before
either.

I wonder if anyone can point me to any solid evidence of rocket
assisted launching of gliders by the British or others.

It sounds like a novel, if somewhat dangerous, way to get airborne in
a sailplane !

Cheers

Jason Armistead
Southern Cross Gliding Club
Camden NSW
Visit http://www.gliding.com.au/ !

[Vaughn]

"Jason Armistead" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I wonder if anyone can point me to any solid evidence of rocket
> assisted launching of gliders by the British or others.
>
I recall being told that the L13 was originally intended to have rocket
launch as an option, but in a ten-minute Google search I can't find any
actual evidence. Perhaps someone else can pick up on this.

Vaughn

[ChuckPilot]

Jason,
The Germans built a rocket-launched fighter in WW2 (the ME 163?). After the
fuel was exhausted, it would glide back to the airfield. The hypergolic fuel
used made the glider more dangerous to the ground crews than it was to the
Allies.

Space Shuttle. BTW, does (or did) the Space Shuttle have an airworthiness
certificate?

Someone here in the US I think is working on a scaled version of the 163, but
using a safer fuel I trust.

Chuck

[Ralph Jones]

On 07 Sep 2003 13:59:21 GMT, (ChuckPilot) wrote:

>Jason,
>The Germans built a rocket-launched fighter in WW2 (the ME 163?). After the
>fuel was exhausted, it would glide back to the airfield. The hypergolic fuel
>used made the glider more dangerous to the ground crews than it was to the
>Allies.
>
>Space Shuttle. BTW, does (or did) the Space Shuttle have an airworthiness
>certificate?
>
>Someone here in the US I think is working on a scaled version of the 163, but
>using a safer fuel I trust.
>
Are you sure they're working on a 163? There is a project to produce
some Me-262's (jet, not rocket)...with the J-85's they're planning to
put in it, it should be a pretty decent airplane.

rj

[Ralph Jones]

On 7 Sep 2003 06:23:06 -0700, (Jason Armistead)
wrote:

>An unusual historical question for the combined genius of the list ...
>
>While visiting Ray Ash at Gulgong on Saturday (to scan some great old
>photos of the early days of Southern Cross Gliding Club for our Back
>To Camden Week starting 20th September), we were looking through Ray's
>early log book.
>
>It's a British Gliding Association one, marked as 3rd Reprint 1949.
>
>On the inside front cover, it lists the Types of Launch as:
>
>C = Catapult
>W = Winch
>M = Motor car-tow
>A = Aero-tow
>
>and
>
>R = Rocket assisted
>
>OK, while I can accept that catapult might be another word for Bungy
>launching, I was a bit taken aback by the notion of launching a glider
>with a ROCKET ! Ray mentioned he'd never really noticed that before
>either.
>
>I wonder if anyone can point me to any solid evidence of rocket
>assisted launching of gliders by the British or others.
>
>It sounds like a novel, if somewhat dangerous, way to get airborne in
>a sailplane !
>
>Cheers
>
>Jason Armistead
>Southern Cross Gliding Club
>Camden NSW
>Visit http://www.gliding.com.au/ !

The Messerschmitt Me-323 Gigant troop transport was developed from the
Me-3231 troop glider, and the powered version used JATO for
takeoff...perhaps that would count.

rj

[Martin Gregorie]

On 7 Sep 2003 06:23:06 -0700, (Jason Armistead)
wrote:

>An unusual historical question for the combined genius of the list ...
>
>While visiting Ray Ash at Gulgong on Saturday (to scan some great old
>photos of the early days of Southern Cross Gliding Club for our Back
>To Camden Week starting 20th September), we were looking through Ray's
>early log book.
>
>It's a British Gliding Association one, marked as 3rd Reprint 1949.
>
>On the inside front cover, it lists the Types of Launch as:
>
>C = Catapult
>W = Winch
>M = Motor car-tow
>A = Aero-tow
>
>and
>
>R = Rocket assisted
>
>OK, while I can accept that catapult might be another word for Bungy
>launching, I was a bit taken aback by the notion of launching a glider
>with a ROCKET ! Ray mentioned he'd never really noticed that before
>either.
>
>I wonder if anyone can point me to any solid evidence of rocket
>assisted launching of gliders by the British or others.
>
>It sounds like a novel, if somewhat dangerous, way to get airborne in
>a sailplane !
>

From http://www.astronautix.com/articles/blalants.htm

"Automobile manufacturer Fritz von Opel piloted his own rocket glider,
Opel Rak.2, in tests near Frankfurt on 30 September 1928. Its 16
rockets, each producing 50 pounds of thrust, were build by Friedrich
Sander a pyrotechnics specialist. The propulsion system combining
high-thrust, fast-burning powder rockets for initial acceleration with
lower-thrust, slower-burning rockets to sustain velocity.

Opel approached Alexander M. Lippisch, a young designer working at the
Rhon-Rossitten-Gesellschaft, who had already displayed a penchant for
the unorthodox in airplane configuration, with the proposal that he,
too, design a glider for rocket power.

Max Valier and Alexander Sander also succeeded in arousing enthusiasm
for rocket propulsion in a twenty- seven-year-old aircraft designer,
Gottlop Espenlaub. His E 15 tail-less design was of interest as a
rocketplane.

On 11 June, Fritz Stamer effected the first rocket- propelled flight
in Lippish's glider. The glider had been dubbed Ente, or Duck. That
lead later to the Lippish's Komet - the Messerschmitt Me 163, liquid
rocket manned interceptor. "

There's a picture here: http://www.ig-scale.at/rak1.html

HTH
Martin

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[ChuckPilot]

In article >, Ralph Jones
> writes:

>Are you sure they're working on a 163?

See the link below.

http://www.xcor.com/me163.html

Chuck

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
(ChuckPilot) wrote:

> In article >, Ralph Jones
> > writes:
>
> >Are you sure they're working on a 163?
>
> See the link below.
>
> http://www.xcor.com/me163.html

XCOR is developing high reliability, low cost rocket engines for
non-government applications. It's all very well to show a rocket on the
lab bench, but it's a much bigger deal to actually integrate one into an
aircraft. They floated the idea of building an ME163 or Bell X1 replica
for someone, and the CEO (Jeff Greason) also asked in this newsgroup
whether anyone was interested in rocket launch for their glider. They
didn't get any takers, so instead they fitted their rocket engines to a
Long-EZ belonging to one of their engineers, producing the EZ-Rocket.

The EZ-Rocket was shown (static display) at Oshkosh in 2001 and had two
demonstration flights at Oshkosh 2002.

XCOR are now working on larger engines and a custom aircraft capable of
carrying two people to 100+ km altitude.

-- Bruce
worked on the XCOR stand at Oshkosh 2002

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, Jason
Armistead > writes
>An unusual historical question for the combined genius of the list ...
>
>While visiting Ray Ash at Gulgong on Saturday (to scan some great old
>photos of the early days of Southern Cross Gliding Club for our Back
>To Camden Week starting 20th September), we were looking through Ray's
>early log book.
>
>It's a British Gliding Association one, marked as 3rd Reprint 1949.
>
>On the inside front cover, it lists the Types of Launch as:
>
>C = Catapult
>W = Winch
>M = Motor car-tow
>A = Aero-tow
>
>and
>
>R = Rocket assisted
>
>OK, while I can accept that catapult might be another word for Bungy
>launching, I was a bit taken aback by the notion of launching a glider
>with a ROCKET ! Ray mentioned he'd never really noticed that before
>either.
>
>I wonder if anyone can point me to any solid evidence of rocket
>assisted launching of gliders by the British or others.
>
>It sounds like a novel, if somewhat dangerous, way to get airborne in
>a sailplane !
>
>Cheers
>
>Jason Armistead
>Southern Cross Gliding Club
>Camden NSW
>Visit http://www.gliding.com.au/ !

About 60 years ago the Germans had a fighter which was virtually a
rocket launched glider. The rocket used very concentrated hydrogen
peroxide reacting with hydrazine.

They used to train pilots by towing it empty behind something like a
Heinkel 111. And, so they get used to aero-towing, they started by
giving them a few A/Ts in conventional gliders.

The mission profile was to launch when the B17s were quite close, climb
up above the bomber formation and have a go at them on the way down.

If there was any fuel remaining in the tanks after the climb, the
machine had a nasty habit of exploding on landing.
--
Mike Lindsay

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, Ralph Jones
> writes
>On 07 Sep 2003 13:59:21 GMT, (ChuckPilot) wrote:
>
>>Jason,
>>The Germans built a rocket-launched fighter in WW2 (the ME 163?). After the
>>fuel was exhausted, it would glide back to the airfield. The hypergolic fuel
>>used made the glider more dangerous to the ground crews than it was to the
>>Allies.
>>
>>Space Shuttle. BTW, does (or did) the Space Shuttle have an airworthiness
>>certificate?
>>
>>Someone here in the US I think is working on a scaled version of the 163, but
>>using a safer fuel I trust.
>>
>Are you sure they're working on a 163? There is a project to produce
>some Me-262's (jet, not rocket)...with the J-85's they're planning to
>put in it, it should be a pretty decent airplane.
>
>rj
A guy I know is restoring an ME 162. They are having the engines rebuilt
with modern materials.
--
Mike Lindsay

[Robin Birch]

In message <cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-6Fr6s4Q9YCdy@localhost>, Ian Johnston
> writes
>On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:09:10 UTC, Mike Lindsay
> wrote:
>
>: If there was any fuel remaining in the tanks after the climb, the
>: machine had a nasty habit of exploding on landing.
>
>I think the problem was rather more that any leaking peroxide from a
>split tank on landing would rather cheerfully oxidize the pilot.
>
>Ouch.
>
>Ian
>
Bit of both. The peroxide would oxidize anything including fuel,
flammable materials or the pilot. If the oxidation process then went
berserk (preventing this meant that they had to keep the tanks
scrupulously clean) then there would be an explosion - a very big one.

Robin
--
Robin Birch