Mirror installation required?

[[email protected]]

I was recently towed by a tow plane that had no mirror installed. Two way communication was established using VHF and a club member was positioned ahead of the tow plane to relay ground signals. This was a US based club. This launch prompted me to wonder if in the US a mirror is actually required.. After researching 14 CFR and AC 43.13 2B I can not find a regulatory reference to mirror installations in the US. I see various Canadian and European references buy none here in the US. Can anyone point me to a FAR or Advisory Circular that specifies a mirror is required? I just am curious if its a smart practice or an actual requirement for towing. I'm sure this has been covered before but the proof escapes my research.

Thanks
LB

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

While not a "US regs expert", I am not aware of a reg.
But, I consider it a cheap "second info referral" to help all involved.

From an, "ISO background", safety/quality is everyone's job......

Curious to see if a US reg shows up.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for commenting. As a tow pilot/glider pilot I saw it as not the "best practice" and made a comment that "I think it is required" to the tow pilot the next day. But I qualified it with "I'll check it out". Now I can't find that it is required. So I may have to stand corrected.

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:48:11 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> While not a "US regs expert", I am not aware of a reg.
> But, I consider it a cheap "second info referral" to help all involved.
>
> From an, "ISO background", safety/quality is everyone's job......
>
> Curious to see if a US reg shows up.

[N97MT]

Not a US regulatory requirement. 91.309 says a lot about the tow hook and the tow line but nothing about mirrors.

However a mirror may be a local organizational requirement. The Civil Air Patrol seems to require it.

It is very hard for the tow pilot to see the spoilers hanging out at low altitude right after liftoff if you can't glance back at the glider. No radio will help you there to see it, unless someone on the ground sees and helps you. Turning your head to look out the back window (if even possible) while keeping the tow plane in a safe climb attitude in this situation is a bad idea.

Depending on the tow plane, this is a critical situation where it is very easy to loose control of the tow plane. In the few years I have been towing, being zapped by spoilers hanging out behind me has happened to me twice. It is like trying to tow around a ton of bricks a few MPH just above stall speed barely climbing if at all.

Common sense should put the mirror in any tow plane. And it should be used. Frequently.

Besides, think of all the other cool reasons you could tell the uninitiated what that thing is for.

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 12:48:11 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> While not a "US regs expert", I am not aware of a reg.
> But, I consider it a cheap "second info referral" to help all involved.
>
> From an, "ISO background", safety/quality is everyone's job......
>
> Curious to see if a US reg shows up.

[RobKol]

There is no regulatory requirement for rear view mirror installation on aircraft.
Mirror(s) might be included in required equipment list for a specific aircraft model when towing, or in other types of operations. POH or Flight Manual would explain that.
Certified airplanes become non-airworthy with non-approved mirror installation.


On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 10:28:49 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I was recently towed by a tow plane that had no mirror installed. Two way communication was established using VHF and a club member was positioned ahead of the tow plane to relay ground signals. This was a US based club. This launch prompted me to wonder if in the US a mirror is actually required. After researching 14 CFR and AC 43.13 2B I can not find a regulatory reference to mirror installations in the US. I see various Canadian and European references buy none here in the US. Can anyone point me to a FAR or Advisory Circular that specifies a mirror is required? I just am curious if its a smart practice or an actual requirement for towing. I'm sure this has been covered before but the proof escapes my research.
>
> Thanks
> LB

[N97MT]

Certified tow pilots are still airworthy with a cheap hand-held vanity mirror.

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 3:39:41 PM UTC-5, RobKol wrote:
> There is no regulatory requirement for rear view mirror installation on aircraft.
> Mirror(s) might be included in required equipment list for a specific aircraft model when towing, or in other types of operations. POH or Flight Manual would explain that.
> Certified airplanes become non-airworthy with non-approved mirror installation.
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 10:28:49 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I was recently towed by a tow plane that had no mirror installed. Two way communication was established using VHF and a club member was positioned ahead of the tow plane to relay ground signals. This was a US based club.. This launch prompted me to wonder if in the US a mirror is actually required. After researching 14 CFR and AC 43.13 2B I can not find a regulatory reference to mirror installations in the US. I see various Canadian and European references buy none here in the US. Can anyone point me to a FAR or Advisory Circular that specifies a mirror is required? I just am curious if its a smart practice or an actual requirement for towing. I'm sure this has been covered before but the proof escapes my research.
> >
> > Thanks
> > LB

[SoaringXCellence]

I have heard the installing the mirror can require a 337 Field approval and that has stopped some operators from installing the mirror.

[Dan Marotta]

The five tugs at Moriarty (that's right - 5) each have mirrors. I can't
say about the ABQ Soaring Club, but the Sundance tugs are all licensed
as "Restricted" which, I would guess, is their ticket to having external
mirrors mounted. I wouldn't tow without them.

On 7/20/2016 10:14 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> I have heard the installing the mirror can require a 337 Field approval and that has stopped some operators from installing the mirror.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

What type of tow plane was it? The Pawnees that I tow with have exterior mirrors. Both the L-19 and Maules have overhead skylights and interior mirrors which are not visible to the glider but quite effective. I will not tow without a mirror!

Skip

[Dan Marotta]

I've towed with a Maule, L-19, Citabria, Super Cub, Pawnee, CalAir, and
Ag Wagon. All had mirrors except for the Maule and I didn't like that.

On 7/21/2016 11:15 AM, wrote:
> What type of tow plane was it? The Pawnees that I tow with have exterior mirrors. Both the L-19 and Maules have overhead skylights and interior mirrors which are not visible to the glider but quite effective. I will not tow without a mirror!
>
> Skip

--
Dan, 5J

[kirk.stant]

Our Pawnees have 2 large (5 x 7 in?) truck mirrors mounted inside on either side of the cockpit (above the instruments on the curved "crash pad"). Mounted using RAM ball mounts - no vibration and you can see everything the glider is doing back there. Field of view is through the aft quarter panels and door windows.

We also have a small car mirror mounted externally as part of the Tost internal tow reel system that shows the tow rope so you can watch it retract.

No mirrors, no tow, IMO...

Kirk
St Louis Soaring Assn.

[Walt Connelly]

Our Pawnees all have mirrors, I actually prefer to have one on each side. It is always good to be able to see the spoilers if they pop open on take off roll.....among other things. Would not tow without mirrors.

Walt
Seminole Lake

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 10:28:49 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I was recently towed by a tow plane that had no mirror installed.
<snipped>
Can anyone point me to a FAR or Advisory Circular that specifies a mirror is required? I just am curious if its a smart practice or an actual requirement for towing. I'm sure this has been covered before but the proof escapes my research.
>
> Thanks
> LB

No FAR requirement. Mirrors are excellent practice. What you carry or mount inside is less likely to attract ramp-inspection attention. What would be more useful is for persons to post N-numbers of airplanes that have 337s for approved installations. Then folks with no mirrors can pursue having approvals for new installations.

In actuality, you don't want to discuss N-numbers with mirrors, unless you KNOW that there is an approved installation. My supposition is that there are a LOT of mirrors out there without an FAA-blessed installation.

There are a couple CAP Alaska machines that have strut-based approved exterior mirrors. I don't recall the link. That might be used as a reference to create a local field approval for other strut equipped towplanes.

All for exterior mirrors,
Cindy B

[bumper[_4_]]

I think mirrors on each side of the Pawnee's cowl, being closer to the pilot, give a better view than strut mount mirrors. On my Husky, I have a wide mirror inside up high so it looks back out the top skylight. It cannot see below the horizontal stab, but it's okay for the high tow position and better than nothing.

I've heard of, but not used or seen, of tow planes using a rear view camera instead of mirrors.

bumper
Minden
MKIV and QV