Racing

[Casey[_2_]]

Been watching olympic events of rowing, sailing, and so forth and wonder why no sailplane racing, or aerobatics?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 7:18:27 PM UTC-4, Casey wrote:
> Been watching olympic events of rowing, sailing, and so forth and wonder why no sailplane racing, or aerobatics?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/ojVHaFU3CxI/6zjbsOIwm4cJ

[[email protected]]

https://www.outsideonline.com/2104561/climbing-and-surfing-have-no-place-olympics

[Casey[_2_]]

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 7:28:00 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 7:18:27 PM UTC-4, Casey wrote:
> > Been watching olympic events of rowing, sailing, and so forth and wonder why no sailplane racing, or aerobatics?
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/ojVHaFU3CxI/6zjbsOIwm4cJ

OK. I dead horse. I was going to write a long come back, but I guess I will just go back to watching badminton.

[[email protected]]

This humorous look at Olympic sailing suggests gliding would be equally as confusing to regular folk:

http://www.foxsports.com/olympics/story/you-might-need-to-be-a-genius-to-understand-olympic-sailing-081016

CJ

[[email protected]]

Better sailing commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPjMvTmE2g

[Sean[_2_]]

Actually a Grand Prix format for soaring at the Olympics would be much more fun and understandable than sailing is to the average Joe. I have competed in both sports, and ran/competed in a Grand Prix recently.

Of course sailing (unlike US rules soaring, for example) does have the concept of a "leader" at every mark and the finish, but the sailing, wind shifts and tactics are very hard to follow. Much harder than sailplane Grand Prix would be. Plus the concept of flying at 180 mph is more exciting than a boat moving at 8 mph...

The beloved turn area - timed task and the concept of starting anytime one wishes would immediately turn off the vast majority of spectators....oh, wait a minute....maybe we should try the one or no turn HAT. Now that would just be some riveting viewing!

It's no wonder the sport of soaring is declining. If you think about it, it's been in decline since about the same time we moved away from racing tasks. Hmmm. Today it's hard to explain soaring rules (especially the unique and highly complex US rules) to people who are pilots, even soaring pilots!

Oh, and finally, the 4 hours required to complete the scores each day (well, night really, often late night)! I'm surprised the big TV networks aren't beating down the doors for the rights to all that sports excitement!

A bunch of gliders randomly flying around 30 mile radius turn areas (or a HAT task) Is not a race at all. When the gliders finish spectators would have no idea what happened! Add in handicaps, etc....BOOM! Oh the ratings!

Soaring in the Olympics? Not with the current Jon racing mindset and rules.. No chance. Maybe sailplane Grand Prix would work. That would be really fun actually!

Anyway, thanks for the chuckle. This idea is really, really funny! Especially when you assume it's US rules soaring that your proposing as an Olympic sport!

Sean

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 05:24 12 August 2016, Sean wrote:
>Actually a Grand Prix format for soaring at the Olympics would
be much
>more=
> fun and understandable than sailing is to the average Joe. I
have
>compete=
>d in both sports, and ran/competed in a Grand Prix recently.
>
>Of course sailing (unlike US rules soaring, for example) does
have the
>conc=
>ept of a "leader" at every mark and the finish, but the sailing,
wind
>shift=
>s and tactics are very hard to follow. Much harder than
sailplane Grand
>Pr=
>ix would be. Plus the concept of flying at 180 mph is more
exciting than
>a=
> boat moving at 8 mph...
>
>The beloved turn area - timed task and the concept of starting
anytime one
>=
>wishes would immediately turn off the vast majority of
spectators....oh,
>wa=
>it a minute....maybe we should try the one or no turn HAT.
Now that would
>=
>just be some riveting viewing!
>
>It's no wonder the sport of soaring is declining. If you think
about it,
>i=
>t's been in decline since about the same time we moved away
from racing
>tas=
>ks. Hmmm. Today it's hard to explain soaring rules
(especially the
>unique=
> and highly complex US rules) to people who are pilots, even
soaring
>pilots=
>!
>
>Oh, and finally, the 4 hours required to complete the scores
each day
>(well=
>, night really, often late night)! I'm surprised the big TV
networks
>aren'=
>t beating down the doors for the rights to all that sports
excitement!
>
>A bunch of gliders randomly flying around 30 mile radius turn
areas (or a
>H=
>AT task) Is not a race at all. When the gliders finish spectators
would
>ha=
>ve no idea what happened! Add in handicaps, etc....BOOM!
Oh the ratings!
>
>Soaring in the Olympics? Not with the current Jon racing
mindset and
>rules=
>.. No chance. Maybe sailplane Grand Prix would work. That
would be
>really=
> fun actually!
>
>Anyway, thanks for the chuckle. This idea is really, really
funny!
>Especi=
>ally when you assume it's US rules soaring that your proposing
as an
>Olympi=
>c sport!
>
>Sean
>

"Seamanship is two dimensional Airmanship at 10 Knots"

[[email protected]]

One other thing that works against Soaring as an Olympic event is the fact that worldwide, there are few participants compared to any of the other examples named. Millions of sailors, equestrians, and yes, climbers and surfers make up a visible market. Soaring, with at most a few hundred thousand pilots is too small and the cost to do a "first class" Grand Prix broadcast (New Zealand, Andes) would be prohibitive considering only a few countries could afford to send a team. Televising a soaring contest of any kind is massively more complex than showing sailing or any other sport, simply because of the distances, speeds and the third dimension of altitude.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I know how to add to a sailing race........have the boat start to sink if the wind stops ;-)

I will say that the Americas Cup became more interesting (to me) when they started using GPS positions to run a TV screen showing tracks and wind.

[[email protected]]

Charlie- Agreed. Technology today obviously can bring almost any sport (including soaring) to the screen. I am just discouraged because the use of such technology is very expensive. I thoroughly enjoy watching the Sailplane Grand Prix videos. However, to my knowledge, the US GP race at Ionia did not utilize the technology. The only videos I have seen are not particularly inspiring. Perhaps a better video will be coming?

ps. I like your idea for adding a bit more challenge to sailing.

[[email protected]]

Lets make it happen. One hitch, given the demographics of sailplane pilots can we find any that don't have any (prescribed for age related ailments) prescriptions on this list?
http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2016-prohibited-list-en.pdf

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 11:29:22 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Lets make it happen. One hitch, given the demographics of sailplane pilots can we find any that don't have any (prescribed for age related ailments) prescriptions on this list?
> http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2016-prohibited-list-en.pdf

If you're high enough on the IGC ranking list,or at an FAI/IGC sanctioned event, you are testable. Positively, they've exempted soaring from the ban on oxygen.

See http://www.fai.org/cimp-anti-doping-programme/anti-doping-testing

[Sean[_2_]]

We learned much for SGP USA. The big mistake was allowing people "the choice" of spot trackers. Some (John Mittel) let me talk them into buying a cheap android phone and installing IGC droid. This worked amazingly well. Next year SPOT will not be allowed. Both InReach (30 second) and mobile tracking will be MANDATORY. With those requirements, a SGP or even a an SSA task will be much more interesting to watch. In many ways this combination provides equal or better tracking that some of the more famous SGP videos you're referring too.

Videos: we did not spend a ton of money on videos. Our goal was to hold the first FAI SGP event in the USA, safety, have fun and gain experience. We succeeded in all catagories. Especially the fun! Personally, this was BY FAR the most fun I haveever had competing in gliders since I began flying contests. Many others expressed the same feelings. It was great practice and the learning g curve was straight up. For videos, focused on the human experience and the winners interviews. We used a good friend in the sports video production industry but the rain days at the end of the contest hurt us as we had hedged the majority of his schedule toward the end of the contest. I think the best video is the probably the video Garret shared. I was so busy I chose to not do gopro in the cockpit.

It would cost between 10-15k to do secure high quality video production during the SGP event. That is really only one major sponsor.

Next year will be even better. How much better will depend of sponsors. We have some pretty good sponsors in discussions for 2017 already...

Sean

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 4:18:40 PM UTC-4, Sean wrote:
> We learned much for SGP USA. The big mistake was allowing people "the choice" of spot trackers. Some (John Mittel) let me talk them into buying a cheap android phone and installing IGC droid. This worked amazingly well. Next year SPOT will not be allowed. Both InReach (30 second) and mobile tracking will be MANDATORY. With those requirements, a SGP or even a an SSA task will be much more interesting to watch. In many ways this combination provides equal or better tracking that some of the more famous SGP videos you're referring too.
>
> Videos: we did not spend a ton of money on videos. Our goal was to hold the first FAI SGP event in the USA, safety, have fun and gain experience. We succeeded in all catagories. Especially the fun! Personally, this was BY FAR the most fun I haveever had competing in gliders since I began flying contests. Many others expressed the same feelings. It was great practice and the learning g curve was straight up. For videos, focused on the human experience and the winners interviews. We used a good friend in the sports video production industry but the rain days at the end of the contest hurt us as we had hedged the majority of his schedule toward the end of the contest. I think the best video is the probably the video Garret shared. I was so busy I chose to not do gopro in the cockpit.
>
> It would cost between 10-15k to do secure high quality video production during the SGP event. That is really only one major sponsor.
>
> Next year will be even better. How much better will depend of sponsors. We have some pretty good sponsors in discussions for 2017 already...
>
> Sean

Why not put 2 inexpensive OGN receivers (about $100 ea and some internet bandwidth - you could probably get an ISP in the area to provide it for free advertising) in N and S of task area - and use the FLARM echoes (you would have to mandate OGN sign-up and no stealth)? You could also put OGN trackers in towplanes. You can get great coverage, cheap, in the lowlands. No added complexity in the glider; FLARM is already there. SPOT is not intended for NRT tracking, it's a survival aid. OGN also gives you altitude... which makes the race interesting and gives the commentators something to say. SGP is for the spectators and to grow the sport...


Dan

[Sean[_2_]]

Dan,

I do not think they will offer very much advantage over mobile and InReach combination. Also, mobile apps and in reach are COTS, ready to go, reliable and proven today.

That said, if something better and that price range becomes the better choice by next spring, I will be all over it.

Sean

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 6:58:22 PM UTC-4, Sean wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I do not think they will offer very much advantage over mobile and InReach combination. Also, mobile apps and in reach are COTS, ready to go, reliable and proven today.
>
> That said, if something better and that price range becomes the better choice by next spring, I will be all over it.
>
> Sean

The advantage is, pilots don't have to buy and learn a mobile app, or buy an InReach. They have FLARM. OGN works, proven today.

Dan

[[email protected]]

Would this system work better? Ad says Paragliding World Cup and X Alps uses them: https://www.flymaster.net/page/tracker
Dunno how well they work, @100 bucks a piece plus subscription. The PG world cup has 100+ pilots wonder if they have to buy them or they have loner/rental units. Hit em up for sponsorship, tell them sailplane pilots buy all the new electronic devices they can fit in their ships. They just need to try them for free first, at a race;)

[Ron Gleason]

On Friday, 12 August 2016 19:38:07 UTC-6, wrote:
> Would this system work better? Ad says Paragliding World Cup and X Alps uses them: https://www.flymaster.net/page/tracker
> Dunno how well they work, @100 bucks a piece plus subscription. The PG world cup has 100+ pilots wonder if they have to buy them or they have loner/rental units. Hit em up for sponsorship, tell them sailplane pilots buy all the new electronic devices they can fit in their ships. They just need to try them for free first, at a race;)

www.airtribune.com is another. used the HG competitions in the US, US Nationals in Big Spring utilizing it and it ends Saturday 8/13

[Sean[_2_]]

Dan send me something on what to buy/test, etc.

[Sean[_2_]]

Gregg,

Cool find. It's amazing how far ahead hang and paragliding is than sailplanes. This is acactly what we need. I'll look into it. Of course the display website is key. I'll look into this too.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:13:20 AM UTC-4, Sean wrote:
> Dan send me something on what to buy/test, etc.

wilco.

[Ron Gleason]

On Saturday, 13 August 2016 07:13:20 UTC-6, Sean wrote:
> Dan send me something on what to buy/test, etc.

Sean, I sent you a private email a week or so ago about www.airtribune.com

Uses standard phones.

Ron

[[email protected]]

The beauty of solution Dan is advocating is the gliders are already fitted with the required transmitters - Flarm.

Flarm to Flarm range is reduced by:
- small antennas
- moving antennas

By making the OGN receivers fixed installation and using large antennas tuned to Flarms frequencies they can use very weak signals resulting in great range.

More info: http://wiki.glidernet.org

To watch the system in operation (predominately Europe): http://live.glidernet.org/#c=54.14305,10.73583&z=4

Our club is looking at installing receivers around our "playground" for tracking club and visiting gliders. Asset tracking, safety monitoring, race following!

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 17:14 13 August 2016, wrote:
>The beauty of solution Dan is advocating is the gliders are already
fitted
>with the required transmitters - Flarm.
>
>Flarm to Flarm range is reduced by:
>- small antennas
>- moving antennas
>
>By making the OGN receivers fixed installation and using large antennas
>tuned to Flarms frequencies they can use very weak signals resulting in
>great range.
>
>More info: http://wiki.glidernet.org
>
>To watch the system in operation (predominately Europe):
>http://live.glidernet.org/#c=54.14305,10.73583&z=4
>
>Our club is looking at installing receivers around our "playground" for
>tracking club and visiting gliders. Asset tracking, safety monitoring,
race
>following!
>
At the recent Lasham Glide competition there were 66 competitors and all
bar one carried Flarm. Flarm will become universal in time and it is easy
to use as a live tracker.

Recently watched Olympic Dressage. The commentators were able to reveal the
scores as the tests were actually being ridden. This greatly increased the
interest in that rather boring sport.

The SGP that was run in France had great live commentary that complimented
the real time tracks well. By bringing the low cost Flarm tracking together
with informed commentary we could actually make our wonderful sport
interesting to a wider audience.

[7C]

Check out http://bicester.onglide.com it's fully tracked via Flarm.

I'm going to work on opensourcing the software this winter - tracking bit is easy but the rest of the competition management is a bit harder. As to adding commentary it's not difficult except perhaps finding somebody to do it!

Mel

[Tango Whisky]

Well I for my part will be damned if I wer visible on OGN. I have the "no track" option on my Flarm, and once I see it disregarded, I'll switch it off..

I carry a SPOT to be localized after a crash, but that tells your position on a map without altitude every 10 minutes.

OGN has you tracked every couple of seconds with altitude, and that's Big Brother.... Where I fly, people have been fined for entering national parks based on OGN (and there are some national parks which you can't avoid to enter if you want to do serious x-country).

For a localized event, it sure is a nice thing, but I just wouldn't trust these OGN folks (who exactly are they?) to tale me off after the contest.

Bert
Ventus cM "TW"

[Sean[_2_]]

Home made, raspberry pi stuff makes me a little leery at this point. That said the lag involved in (especially spot) sat trackers is a concern when doing live commentary. I imagine a Flarm based solution would have the least lag as it is direct (not relying on a server to calculate & display relative position). That said, the quality and range of Flarm antenna installations especially at long range gives me some concern.

I like a multi-channel approach at this point. I would probably require mobile, InReach (most reliable I have seen to date) and of course Flarm. I do not care about requiring the competitors to own InReach. They should anyway as Spot is almost worthless and most crashes that would injure you will like disable the spot device, meaning your location is up to 10 minutes old (this could be ten miles away from your last position). With InReach that position is only 30 seconds or less old. In addition the benefits for the sport and the viewing with more reliable tracking is proceless, especially in a Grand Prix.

As reliability changes this policy would change, but for now InReach is the only truly reliable solution.

Sean

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

OGN allows you to opt out for tracking; you can still do a SAR request if someone who has registered doesn't come back (positions are only kept for 24 hrs). You can also get a range analysis to see if your FLARM range is acceptable to you.

If you have put no-track in your flarmcfg.txt file, you won't be visible on OGN.

The point, however, is that there is a desire to expose more of the public to the thrill of the race, particularly at Sailplane Grand Prix, in a way that can be followed. OGN is an option. When you register, you select whether you wish to be tracked, and the ID used; this can be changed.

InReach is quite expensive in some countries outside the US, which is a problem (so is SPOT).

I have 4 GPS in my glider - phone, oudie, CNv, FLARM. I don't think I have cross-talk, but I don't want another put in at a contest where I'd be distracted if it messed up a functioning cockpit.

I'm an OGN fan. Keeps the crew informed; can be used for SAR; cheap; not impossible for a techno-bozo (me).

If you don't want it, don't use it.

Dan

[[email protected]]

Dan-

You suggested 2 OGN receivers "N and S of the task area." What sort of reception range are you anticipating? Most of the SGP races I have seen (excepting Ionia) are in the (many) hundreds of kilometers, often in the mountains or other inhospitable terrain. Could be a problem in the western US.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> You suggested 2 OGN receivers "N and S of the task area." What sort of reception range are you anticipating? Most of the SGP races I have seen (excepting Ionia) are in the (many) hundreds of kilometers, often in the mountains or other inhospitable terrain. Could be a problem in the western US.

I was thinking of Ionia, which is pretty flat (only place in the U.S. which shows interest in SGP that I'm aware of). In similar terrain (Eastern Ontario, Canada), we get pretty good coverage with 3 receivers. Look at http://ognrange.onglide.com/#,max,all,45.234963_-75.068293,8,#00990000:#009900ff,airspace;circles; you can see the coverage. Much comes from the CNF3a receiver, Hawkesbury and Kars receivers are new (we hope to put one to the NW in the hills of Quebec to cover out there). In the mountains, you can put the receiver on a mountain and gain LOS (many have antenna farms anyway). The CNF3a receiver is 30m up - on the top of our large hangar - and we see 100 km if the glider is high enough.

I see newish receivers in Minden and Colorado (maybe someone in the 94th FTS could put one on the hills thereabouts?), so you can watch the tracks from them and judge what you need. If ridge flying, you'll need a bunch (higher the antenna the fewer the receivers); if it's thermals and you're bumping class A, you won't need many receivers. I'm working on a mobile system which we'll take to Lake Placid wave camp; we expect good coverage of the lucky lads and lasses in the wave with a single receiver.

It cannot be any worse than a SPOT with a few missed messages!

Dan

[Sean[_2_]]

Ionia will have one shortly.