View Full Version : Wishing for clickable US score sheet
Steve Koerner
August 15th 16, 04:00 PM
The score sheet presently has a column identifying only the name of the IGC file for each pilot. That's a good thing, but it's a real pain to then go find and retrieve the file elsewhere.
It would be really cool if we could just click the IGC file name to immediately download it for viewing.
Since I'm free to wish as I please, I will also wish for another column on the scoresheet with an IGC file that has been pruned to the on-course time such that the pre-start and post-finish data is removed from the log. That would really be nice for checking a pilot's racing statistics and make flight comparisons easy. So two IGC files for each flight please: one comprises the as-submitted flight log and the other is a generated file slightly massaged for improved viewing and analysis.
I'm sure somebody here knows how to do this stuff. Thanks in advance if you can do this. It would help everybody improve their flying.
That is a great idea!
I go to the "results" page on the SSA web and download the entire batch of flights from that day. They I load the batch into SeeYou and scroll down to find the pilots I am interested it. If you just want one file my method is pretty circuitous. I suppose you could write down the file name from the score sheet and then find it in the batch. Your suggestion would surely make both these methods obsolete.
It would take some coding by our volunteer web master. From what I have seen of his talents your suggesting would be easy for him!
Lane
Brett
August 16th 16, 10:41 AM
The rest of the world uses Soaring Spot to post competition results. http://www.soaringspot.com/
No need to reinvent the wheel.
Tony[_5_]
August 16th 16, 02:31 PM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:43:07 AM UTC-5, Brett wrote:
> The rest of the world uses Soaring Spot to post competition results.
> http://www.soaringspot.com/
> No need to reinvent the wheel.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brett
the rest of the world uses a different scoring system too
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Brett wrote:
> The rest of the world uses Soaring Spot to post competition results.
> http://www.soaringspot.com/
> No need to reinvent the wheel.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brett
No reinventing.
Flight log availability on line has been part of contest reporting in the US since 2011.
UH
JS
August 16th 16, 06:33 PM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:08:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Brett wrote:
> > The rest of the world uses Soaring Spot to post competition results.
> > http://www.soaringspot.com/
> > No need to reinvent the wheel.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brett
>
> No reinventing.
> Flight log availability on line has been part of contest reporting in the US since 2011.
> UH
Believe the point Brett made is: Soaring Spot already does everything Steve asked about. It's very easy to navigate between days and classes. An IGC file is downloaded by clicking the contest ID on the daily score sheet.
Problems exist because USA uses a proprietary handicapping system, and a measure of distance used at few if any other places in aviation.
Australian competitions use multiple start points for each task, but are able to use Soaring Spot so there is a way to work these differences out.
Jim
Steve Leonard[_2_]
August 16th 16, 07:11 PM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 12:33:40 PM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> Problems exist because USA uses a proprietary handicapping system, and a measure of distance used at few if any other places in aviation.
> Jim
I beg to differ with you on that, Jim. This has NOTHING to do with rules, handicaps, etc. This is all post scoring, where do we store the flight logs and make a link to them rather than a link to a zip file with all the flight logs in it.
The other Steve
Craig Funston
August 16th 16, 08:20 PM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 11:11:48 AM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 12:33:40 PM UTC-5, JS wrote:
>
> > Problems exist because USA uses a proprietary handicapping system, and a measure of distance used at few if any other places in aviation.
> > Jim
>
> I beg to differ with you on that, Jim. This has NOTHING to do with rules, handicaps, etc. This is all post scoring, where do we store the flight logs and make a link to them rather than a link to a zip file with all the flight logs in it.
>
> The other Steve
As I understand it the current US scoring software doesn't have any automation in place to sort IGC files and allow easy posting with pilot ID correlated to IGC file. Contest staff is usually running full bore just to keep things on track and don't have time to do anything extra.
This year I was just hoping to have IGC files sorted by class at a national event and was told (rightly) that I could take care of it myself if I wanted, but there was no bandwidth available for contest staff to do that.
I agree with Steve K that it would be really nice, but I don't have time or native skills to write up the coding to make that happen.
A hearty thanks to those who've devoted time and skills to developing the code we have. It's not perfect, but it has been getting better and better.
The Soaring Spot question is really about rules and probably belongs in a different discussion.
Cheers,
Craig
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 2:11:48 PM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 12:33:40 PM UTC-5, JS wrote:
>
> > Problems exist because USA uses a proprietary handicapping system, and a measure of distance used at few if any other places in aviation.
> > Jim
>
> I beg to differ with you on that, Jim. This has NOTHING to do with rules, handicaps, etc. This is all post scoring, where do we store the flight logs and make a link to them rather than a link to a zip file with all the flight logs in it.
>
> The other Steve
Note please that the current US system does exactly what it was tasked to do which is to "promptly" provide all logs in a place where pilot can review their flights or those of their competitors.
The public availability of those files is a useful addition for a few folks. I have, on occasion, looked at one of my flights and did not find it painful, though it was not one click satisfaction.
I wonder how many people want to view these files and whether their interest would justify the time required of a qualified volunteer to take it to another level.
FWIW
UH
FWIW
The current system is so easy and quick - I doubt the effort to separate the files would/should/could ever happen.
To be sure - I just checked - it took less than 5 seconds to down load the entire Sports Class nationals files - 40 gliders x 4 days - that's allot of tracks for little investment.
if it takes longer than you are doing something wrong - you just right click on the "Flight Logs" in the results and save the target to your desktop - you get them all :) fast and easy!!
WH
Steve Koerner
August 16th 16, 11:00 PM
I suppose that if I'd suggested hamburgers for lunch, there'd be RAS posts here expressing what a waste it would be to suggest someone cook the meat when it is just as nutritious eaten raw.
Steve Leonard[_2_]
August 16th 16, 11:38 PM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 5:00:26 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
> I suppose that if I'd suggested hamburgers for lunch, there'd be RAS posts here expressing what a waste it would be to suggest someone cook the meat when it is just as nutritious eaten raw.
Or someone will ask why you are eating beef. :-)
Yes, WH, you can get all the files just that quickly. Now go and just as quickly try and get Tony, Tom, and Mark's files from day 3. Takes more than a bit longer, doesn't it? That is what Steve has asked for. Rather than just listing the file name on the scoresheet, make that file name on the scoresheet a link to the file, just like it is on soaringspot. He has politely suggested something for the "improvements" list.
Agree, Hank. It is doing what it had been asked to do. And now, a qualified person can have a look and see what level of effort would be involved in taking it to this next level. It may be a little and it may be a lot. Never know if you don't ask. I would like to see it, as I do tend to go look at my flights compared to others above me on the scoresheet. And even after making my "de-coder sheet", I find that pilots don't always turn in files from the same logger each day, so when you can't find the file you are looking for, you have to go digging again.
The other Steve
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
August 16th 16, 11:49 PM
On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:00:27 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> The score sheet presently has a column identifying only the name of the IGC file for each pilot. That's a good thing, but it's a real pain to then go find and retrieve the file elsewhere.
>
> It would be really cool if we could just click the IGC file name to immediately download it for viewing.
>
> Since I'm free to wish as I please, I will also wish for another column on the scoresheet with an IGC file that has been pruned to the on-course time such that the pre-start and post-finish data is removed from the log. That would really be nice for checking a pilot's racing statistics and make flight comparisons easy. So two IGC files for each flight please: one comprises the as-submitted flight log and the other is a generated file slightly massaged for improved viewing and analysis.
>
> I'm sure somebody here knows how to do this stuff. Thanks in advance if you can do this. It would help everybody improve their flying.
UH clearly believes that what exists is "good enough" and that the ingrates should be satisfied. The Winscore-based scoring environment does do something more or less like what was intended in the horse and buggy days when there was no internet and the alternatives were few.
UH asserts that there are only a few folks who are interested in looking at files, and getting them the next day is just fine.
Having extensive experience with three scoring systems (Winscore, SeeYou and SGP) along with OLC what the US system provides is doesn't even come close to providing what the current standard of practice is.
At the contests I have officiated at (CD or Scorer), I have endeavored to use alternate and extraordinary means to provide posted scores within minutes of log submission, and to also provide simultaneous availability of logs via Google Drive (albeit not grouped by class :).
My own opinion is that the immediacy of scores, logs and of uesable real-time tracking makes competing (even though it's not racing) much more interesting to both competitors and others.
QT
Craig Funston
August 17th 16, 12:18 AM
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 1:31:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> FWIW
> The current system is so easy and quick - I doubt the effort to separate the files would/should/could ever happen.
>
> To be sure - I just checked - it took less than 5 seconds to down load the entire Sports Class nationals files - 40 gliders x 4 days - that's allot of tracks for little investment.
>
> if it takes longer than you are doing something wrong - you just right click on the "Flight Logs" in the results and save the target to your desktop - you get them all :) fast and easy!!
>
> WH
Say I'm flying a 3 class contest consisting of 65 gliders and I'd like to retrieve the top 10 scores in my class. It takes more than 5 seconds....
Well stated John...I wholehearted agree.
Winscore was originally conceived as a "print on paper" scoring calculator to serve only those present at a soaring contest. This it does well and thanks to Guy Byars who many years ago volunteered to developed it and has kept it updated to reflect current SSA rules.
R.A.S.'ers should not make the mistake of expecting Winscore to provide something it was never designed or intended to provide.
>
> UH clearly believes that what exists is "good enough" and that the ingrates should be satisfied. The Winscore-based scoring environment does do something more or less like what was intended in the horse and buggy days when there was no internet and the alternatives were few.
>
> UH asserts that there are only a few folks who are interested in looking at files, and getting them the next day is just fine.
>
> Having extensive experience with three scoring systems (Winscore, SeeYou and SGP) along with OLC what the US system provides is doesn't even come close to providing what the current standard of practice is.
>
> At the contests I have officiated at (CD or Scorer), I have endeavored to use alternate and extraordinary means to provide posted scores within minutes of log submission, and to also provide simultaneous availability of logs via Google Drive (albeit not grouped by class :).
>
> My own opinion is that the immediacy of scores, logs and of uesable real-time tracking makes competing (even though it's not racing) much more interesting to both competitors and others.
>
> QT
Sean[_2_]
August 17th 16, 01:00 AM
Soaring Spot is just one example of US isolation. The SSA actively seems to do everything possible to isolate US Soaring from the world soaring community. US rules and contests are unique and only Canada (with its own major modifications) uses the US system (with some reluctance I sense). I'm not sure if that is going to continue...
As a US citizen, we have no choice other than to follow these SSA policies. It is very frustrating as they also protect the tangent they have created fairly aggressively from a political perspective. Disgust with FAI rules dominate the news articles and many discussions for example. It basically goes like this: The FAI/IGC rules are bad. The tasking is bad. Etc, etc. How would most Americans really know? They'll never experience it.
Today and for years, there is very little in common between SSA contests and FAI. All of the systems are different. Zero commonality. Some argue that doesn't matter. Contests are still about climbing better and running better. Sure, but that is a massive oversimplification. We have completely different rules in the USA (with highly complex scoring formulas designed to "make soaring...fair," unique scoring systems, our own tasks (zero and one turn mats, long mats 30-mile radius TAT's and almost no assigned tasks), our own handicaps, etc, etc, etc. Those driving this policy are dug in like ticks and believe the USA's soaring tangent is noble and necessary. In my opinion, the SSA's tangent strongly isolates the US soaring community from the worldwide soaring community. In several very important ways.
US pilots are not included in FAI rankings. No, no. We have the SSA pilot rankings. Completely separate. Very rarely are US contest results included in the FAI rankings and any US pilot on the list has a highly inaccurate ranking.
Our contests are only on our (fairly poor, stale, very low traffic) US websites and social media sites, greatly handicapping and limiting the audience and interest. I would love to see the statistics.
The rest of the world very likely does not care at all about the US websites. I doubt they check them very often. If at all...
All of this effort to create a unique and "better" system simply isolates the US (and Canada).
Just my 2 cents...
Spot on QT.
The "ostrich approach" isn't going to solve the issue.
>
> UH clearly believes that what exists is "good enough" and that the ingrates should be satisfied. The Winscore-based scoring environment does do something more or less like what was intended in the horse and buggy days when there was no internet and the alternatives were few.
>
> UH asserts that there are only a few folks who are interested in looking at files, and getting them the next day is just fine.
>
> Having extensive experience with three scoring systems (Winscore, SeeYou and SGP) along with OLC what the US system provides is doesn't even come close to providing what the current standard of practice is.
>
> At the contests I have officiated at (CD or Scorer), I have endeavored to use alternate and extraordinary means to provide posted scores within minutes of log submission, and to also provide simultaneous availability of logs via Google Drive (albeit not grouped by class :).
>
> My own opinion is that the immediacy of scores, logs and of uesable real-time tracking makes competing (even though it's not racing) much more interesting to both competitors and others.
>
> QT
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 6:49:55 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:00:27 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > The score sheet presently has a column identifying only the name of the IGC file for each pilot. That's a good thing, but it's a real pain to then go find and retrieve the file elsewhere.
> >
> > It would be really cool if we could just click the IGC file name to immediately download it for viewing.
> >
> > Since I'm free to wish as I please, I will also wish for another column on the scoresheet with an IGC file that has been pruned to the on-course time such that the pre-start and post-finish data is removed from the log. That would really be nice for checking a pilot's racing statistics and make flight comparisons easy. So two IGC files for each flight please: one comprises the as-submitted flight log and the other is a generated file slightly massaged for improved viewing and analysis.
> >
> > I'm sure somebody here knows how to do this stuff. Thanks in advance if you can do this. It would help everybody improve their flying.
>
> UH clearly believes that what exists is "good enough" and that the ingrates should be satisfied. The Winscore-based scoring environment does do something more or less like what was intended in the horse and buggy days when there was no internet and the alternatives were few.
>
> UH asserts that there are only a few folks who are interested in looking at files, and getting them the next day is just fine.
>
> Having extensive experience with three scoring systems (Winscore, SeeYou and SGP) along with OLC what the US system provides is doesn't even come close to providing what the current standard of practice is.
>
> At the contests I have officiated at (CD or Scorer), I have endeavored to use alternate and extraordinary means to provide posted scores within minutes of log submission, and to also provide simultaneous availability of logs via Google Drive (albeit not grouped by class :).
>
> My own opinion is that the immediacy of scores, logs and of uesable real-time tracking makes competing (even though it's not racing) much more interesting to both competitors and others.
>
> QT
UH did not make any assertion that the current system is "good enough". That remains to be seen. If a meaningful number of people want a much more automated system, the work to create it would be justified.
Please read what I wrote.
Having made that determination it then becomes "only" an issue of getting a qualified volunteer to do the work required.
This might be an interesting general topic for our Fall rules poll.
UH
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
August 17th 16, 02:11 AM
On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:00:27 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> The score sheet presently has a column identifying only the name of the IGC file for each pilot. That's a good thing, but it's a real pain to then go find and retrieve the file elsewhere.
>
> It would be really cool if we could just click the IGC file name to immediately download it for viewing.
>
> Since I'm free to wish as I please, I will also wish for another column on the scoresheet with an IGC file that has been pruned to the on-course time such that the pre-start and post-finish data is removed from the log. That would really be nice for checking a pilot's racing statistics and make flight comparisons easy. So two IGC files for each flight please: one comprises the as-submitted flight log and the other is a generated file slightly massaged for improved viewing and analysis.
>
> I'm sure somebody here knows how to do this stuff. Thanks in advance if you can do this. It would help everybody improve their flying.
"Work to create it"? Wheel already invented. Sufficiently round.
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