Libelle spoilers

[Boom Powell]

Are any other Libelle fliers having difficulty extending the spoilers. Mine have become very stiff, sometimes requiring two hands to unlock.

[[email protected]]

There's an old procedure called lubrication, try it and you'll be amazed at the results!

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 15:50:33 -0700, johnsinclair210 wrote:

> There's an old procedure called lubrication, try it and you'll be amazed
> at the results!

My H.201 got lubed during its last inspection (medium viscosity oil on
all bearings in the boxes and also, because both wings felt a little
stiff, on the bearings in root ribs and was nice and free. Then, for a
variety of reasons it didn't get rigged or flown until mid August. After
assembly positives showed that the brakes were virtually solid. Sliding
the wings apart let me check each wing separately. I have a special tool
fabricated from 3mm wall thickness alloy tube and a 10mm solid rod
because that makes routing maintenance easier. One wing was as expected,
but the other was very stiff indeed, but opening and closing that brake
several times made it less stiff and a shot of oil on the root rib
bearing made it nice an free again. Since then its remained rigged but
last week I noticed it was tending to stiffen up again.

I've had my Libelle, s/n 82, so balsa skins and top and bottom brakes for
10 years and this is the first time I've had her stiffen up like this.

Is this a known problem for 201s?

Am I using the right lubricant?

I used oil rather than grease since getting the latter into the root rib
bearing would be rather difficult without surgery.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[JS]

Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret!
Something like LPS1 perhaps?
http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560
Unsure if it's available in Britain.
Jim

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:35:08 -0700, JS wrote:

> Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret! Something like LPS1 perhaps?
> http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560 Unsure if it's available in
> Britain.
> Jim

Yep, LPS1 is available here via Amazon, though at about four times the
price of a similar sized can of WD-40. Is it really 4 times better?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 8:35:09 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret!
> Something like LPS1 perhaps?
> http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560
> Unsure if it's available in Britain.
> Jim

For gummy bearings I have found that a 1:1 mixture of light oil(3 in 1) and Marvel Mystery oil does a very good job of penetrating and softening up old dry lube. I use a small hypodermic needle to apply it.After operating to work some of the old crap out, lubricate with original type lube.
I don't like any kind of spray lube for the simple reason that it gets all over stuff that it was not intended to get on. Try to do a repair with spray lube crap all over.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

There is a gear box on the root rib that changes rotational input to push-pull output that drive the spoilers. I remember one bird that I was unable to free up this gear box. The gears are inside a fiberglass box..........the only way I could see to get some lube in there was to drill a 2mm hole in the fiberglass box. Worked like a charm.
JJ

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 8:50:47 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:35:08 -0700, JS wrote:
>
> > Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret! Something like LPS1 perhaps?
> > http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560 Unsure if it's available in
> > Britain.
> > Jim
>
> Yep, LPS1 is available here via Amazon, though at about four times the
> price of a similar sized can of WD-40. Is it really 4 times better?
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

You are --way-- better off with an old school pump oiler with a flexible spout and a needle oiler. Between the two you can lubricate anything on the glider that needs it... and nothing that doesn't.

-Evan

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 07:46:16 -0700, Tango Eight wrote:

> On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 8:50:47 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:35:08 -0700, JS wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret! Something like LPS1
>> > perhaps?
>> > http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560 Unsure if it's available
>> > in Britain.
>> > Jim
>>
>> Yep, LPS1 is available here via Amazon, though at about four times the
>> price of a similar sized can of WD-40. Is it really 4 times better?
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
>
> You are --way-- better off with an old school pump oiler with a flexible
> spout and a needle oiler. Between the two you can lubricate anything on
> the glider that needs it... and nothing that doesn't.
>
I've got both, as it happens. I also have my doubts about getting useful
amounts of either LPS1 or WD40 into the (rotary) airbrake bearing in the
Libelle's root rib. As you say, a hypodermic oiler will do a better job.

As far as the spray lubes go, I'm more curious to know, given the
relative costs, why I should pay 5.8 times the price per litre for LPS1.

Amazon wants GBP 20.50 for a 312ml (11 fl.oz) can of LPS1 but only GBP
4.50 for a 400ml can of WD-40.

Is LPS1 really six times better than WD-40 or merely six times the price?
Enquiring minds want to know.

As it happens, my disposable Modelcraft hypodermic oiler will be going to
the field next time I fly - and tomorrow looks likely.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 06:54:50 -0700, johnsinclair210 wrote:

> There is a gear box on the root rib that changes rotational input to
> push-pull output that drive the spoilers. I remember one bird that I was
> unable to free up this gear box. The gears are inside a fiberglass
> box..........the only way I could see to get some lube in there was to
> drill a 2mm hole in the fiberglass box. Worked like a charm.
> JJ

Thanks, JJ. I knew there had to be a rotary-to-linear converter somewhere
in the wing and I had wondered where it is and how it worked.

Using an oilcan to put a bit of oil on the end of the bearing where the
shaft enters the root rib worked last time in the workshop so I'll try
the same trick again.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

The devil is in the details......

WD-40 can be great to dry out some electrical bits, as well as loosen dried lube (grease and/or oil) or loosen rusted iron bits.
It has, basically, NO lubrication in it, so......it can get things moving, but likely NOT keeping them moving.

I use about 12 different lubes, depends on the application, currently I like "fluid film" as it sticks, works well and is limited in negative effects due to temp.
Silicone spray when I'm dealing with rubber or similar.
LockEze for cables, locks or small parts since it's basically graphite.

Yes, WD-40 can free it up, but it WILL fail again due to lack of a real lube.

Taken from a "mechanical guy" of over 40 years, doing facilities maintenance and auto/aircraft during that time.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:20:06 -0700, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
wrote:

> The devil is in the details......
>
> WD-40 can be great to dry out some electrical bits, as well as loosen
> dried lube (grease and/or oil) or loosen rusted iron bits.
> It has, basically, NO lubrication in it, so......it can get things
> moving, but likely NOT keeping them moving.
>
> I use about 12 different lubes, depends on the application, currently I
> like "fluid film" as it sticks, works well and is limited in negative
> effects due to temp.
> Silicone spray when I'm dealing with rubber or similar.
> LockEze for cables, locks or small parts since it's basically graphite.
>
> Yes, WD-40 can free it up, but it WILL fail again due to lack of a real
> lube.
>
> Taken from a "mechanical guy" of over 40 years, doing facilities
> maintenance and auto/aircraft during that time.

Thanks for the explanation.

My past use of WD-40 has almost entirely been limited to blasting dirt
out of clockwork timers and/or engines after a free flight model has
dethermalised onto a mega-dusty place. Its invaluable for that - but, and
I'd forgotten this, at the end of the day its essential to strip and
thoroughly clean any timer that has been washed out with WD-40 because
the stuff will dry out and make the timer unreliable, the only cures
being another blast of WD-40 at the start of each future flying session
or the aforementioned strip/clean/re-lube to get rid of any remaining
WD-40 that was in it.

Engines are OK: the WD-40 blows the assorted crap out of the engine so
its clean enough to run, and the next run and flood-off gets rid the
residual WD-40.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 1:21:41 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:20:06 -0700, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
> wrote:
>
> > The devil is in the details......
> >
> > WD-40 can be great to dry out some electrical bits, as well as loosen
> > dried lube (grease and/or oil) or loosen rusted iron bits.
> > It has, basically, NO lubrication in it, so......it can get things
> > moving, but likely NOT keeping them moving.
> >
> > I use about 12 different lubes, depends on the application, currently I
> > like "fluid film" as it sticks, works well and is limited in negative
> > effects due to temp.
> > Silicone spray when I'm dealing with rubber or similar.
> > LockEze for cables, locks or small parts since it's basically graphite.
> >
> > Yes, WD-40 can free it up, but it WILL fail again due to lack of a real
> > lube.
> >
> > Taken from a "mechanical guy" of over 40 years, doing facilities
> > maintenance and auto/aircraft during that time.
>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> My past use of WD-40 has almost entirely been limited to blasting dirt
> out of clockwork timers and/or engines after a free flight model has
> dethermalised onto a mega-dusty place. Its invaluable for that - but, and
> I'd forgotten this, at the end of the day its essential to strip and
> thoroughly clean any timer that has been washed out with WD-40 because
> the stuff will dry out and make the timer unreliable, the only cures
> being another blast of WD-40 at the start of each future flying session
> or the aforementioned strip/clean/re-lube to get rid of any remaining
> WD-40 that was in it.
>
> Engines are OK: the WD-40 blows the assorted crap out of the engine so
> its clean enough to run, and the next run and flood-off gets rid the
> residual WD-40.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

Interesting, The WD-40 manufacturer labels the non-lubricant assertion a myth. http://wd40.com/cool-stuff/myths-legends-fun-facts

Regardless, my personal experience with WD-40 as a lubricant is that it's inferior to something like LPS-2 for long-term lubrication. Stuff I've used WD-40 on tends to seem gunky / rosin like after an extended period of time.

ymmv
7Q

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 14:33:46 -0700, Craig Funston wrote:

> Regardless, my personal experience with WD-40 as a lubricant is that
> it's inferior to something like LPS-2 for long-term lubrication. Stuff
> I've used WD-40 on tends to seem gunky / rosin like after an extended
> period of time.
>
Yep - that's pretty much our experience. Something that's a bit sticky is
left on the timer frame and cog wheels after the solvent has evaporated
and this is what tends to make them unreliable. This is something that's
been known for at least 25 years amongst free flighters.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

Or one or more DU bushes are worn inside the wings.

Ask Streifender for advice, replacing them isn't too big a deal.
http://www.streifly.de/home-e.htm

GG

At 00:35 10 September 2016, JS wrote:
>Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret!
>Something like LPS1 perhaps?
>http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560
>Unsure if it's available in Britain.
>Jim
>

[AS]

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 8:50:47 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:35:08 -0700, JS wrote:
>
> > Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret! Something like LPS1 perhaps?
> > http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560 Unsure if it's available in
> > Britain.
> > Jim
>
> Yep, LPS1 is available here via Amazon, though at about four times the
> price of a similar sized can of WD-40. Is it really 4 times better?
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

LSP1 and WD40 are two different things! WD40 is not to be used as a lubricant. it is a fluid designed to displace water (WD = water displacement, trial 40) and it creeps into frozen or corroded joints. It evaporates easily - spray some on an open surface and see how much is still there the next day.
LPS1 is more suited as a lubricant. It leaves a dry, lubricating Silicone film.
Uli

[[email protected]]

Are the airbrakes stiff over their whole range? Or is it just the over-centre that's difficult to overcome?

Nick.

[JS]

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 5:57:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 8:35:09 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> > Thanks, JJ. So lubrication is the secret!
> > Something like LPS1 perhaps?
> > http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/560
> > Unsure if it's available in Britain.
> > Jim
>
> For gummy bearings I have found that a 1:1 mixture of light oil(3 in 1) and Marvel Mystery oil does a very good job of penetrating and softening up old dry lube. I use a small hypodermic needle to apply it.After operating to work some of the old crap out, lubricate with original type lube.
> I don't like any kind of spray lube for the simple reason that it gets all over stuff that it was not intended to get on. Try to do a repair with spray lube crap all over.
> FWIW
> UH

Sorry for the delayed reply. Been "flieging" over the weekend.
With aerosols, try removing the spray nozzle and put a #10 nylon washer on before replacing the nozzle. Especially when using the nozzle extension tube it makes it easier to apply a small amount without getting it all over the place.
Yes. Marvel Mystery oil is a mysterious and fabulous thing.
Jim

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 22:47:06 +0000, Gav Goudie wrote:

> Or one or more DU bushes are worn inside the wings.
>
DU?

> Ask Streifender for advice, replacing them isn't too big a deal.
> http://www.streifly.de/home-e.htm
>
Will do. Thanks.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

Hi JJ, you may just be able to save my life! I also have a standard Libelle with only 650 hours on it. But the airbrakes are really stiff and it is clear it is the gearbox in the wing roots. I have tried to get lubrication in there and failed and want to drill the 2mm holes. But, where exactly do I drill them and what lubricant would you recommend please

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> DU?

Please, Herr Gregorie, I hardly know you. ;)

But seriously, I was wondering that myself. The last time I heard of DU in the context of materials, it was the _depleted uranium_ used for 30mm cannon shells of the A10 Warthog and the mass balances in early Boeing jetliners.

--Bob K.

[Ken Fixter[_2_]]

At 17:00 29 September 2017, wrote:
>Hi JJ, you may just be able to save my life! I also have a standard
>Libelle=
> with only 650 hours on it. But the airbrakes are really stiff and it is
>cl=
>ear it is the gearbox in the wing roots. I have tried to get lubrication
>in=
> there and failed and want to drill the 2mm holes. But, where exactly do
I
>=
>drill them and what lubricant would you recommend pleas

>Hi just think of what may be the cause

If the problem is caused due to internal corrosion squirting oil in will
not cure it, corrosion grows and tightens things up have you correctly
idetified the tight component.
KF

[[email protected]]

Sorry I don't have a Libelle any more, but I'd drill the 2mm hole in the middle of the gear boxi (visible from the root rib). Much too earl in the year to start the annual discussion about lubricants, but I'm still using WD-40 ...........or other suitable spray lubricants of your choice!
JJ

[OregonGliderPilot]

Sorry I don't have a Libelle any more, but I'd drill the 2mm hole in the middle of the gear boxi (visible from the root rib). Much too earl in the year to start the annual discussion about lubricants, but I'm still using WD-40 ...........or other suitable spray lubricants of your choice!
JJ

I have the drawings for the Kestrel gearbox and there are no separate bearings DU or otherwise as such in the gearbox, just Glasflugel's standard ptfe tape and resin mix embedded in the shells of the gearbox. I think the stiffness comes from both the contraction of the resin over the years and the corrosion of the unprotected steel shaft. My Kestrel air brakes can get stiff, and I use a light ptfe lubricant half way along the shaft to creep into the pure bearings, as per JJ's method, and by taking off the small cap on the external end of the drive dogs (is this on Libelles? I think not...) I can inject some heavier weight oil onto the gears themselves. Needs to be done ever two or three years sadly but it makes the brakes usable. I keep thinking of a major rework and replacing the gearbox with a modern right angle drive.

[AS]

On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 8:39:27 PM UTC+2, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> > DU?
>
> Please, Herr Gregorie, I hardly know you. ;)
>
> But seriously, I was wondering that myself. The last time I heard of DU in the context of materials, it was the _depleted uranium_ used for 30mm cannon shells of the A10 Warthog and the mass balances in early Boeing jetliners.
>
> --Bob K.

Bob,

DU is a brand name or type designation of a bushing made by IGUS.

Uli

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:39:26 -0700, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>> DU?
>
> Please, Herr Gregorie, I hardly know you. ;)
>
Hi Bob,

I've just back from a club expedition to Eden Soaring, where I had fun
ridge running with my Libelle on the Pennines around Cross Fell. We had
three good days despite the prevailing S - SSE wind and the inevitable
messy result of many sheep camping overnight on the airfield.

However, I don't remember mentioning DU (could it have been a mis-
spelling?) in connection with a Libelle and all earlier posts in this
thread have now been eaten by the Chronophage so I can't see the context.

My brakes are currently as silky smooth as they've ever been, largely
thanks to judicious application of a medium viscosity machine oil to the
airbrake bearings in the wing root.

> But seriously, I was wondering that myself. The last time I heard of DU
> in the context of materials, it was the _depleted uranium_ used for 30mm
> cannon shells of the A10 Warthog and the mass balances in early Boeing
> jetliners.
>
Same here, though I didn't know about the Boeing mass balances, and lets
not even mention the rectangular lumps of iron in the nose of a Slingsby
Vega.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |