Speed record?

[Soartech]

or fantasy of flight?
On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 7:01:26 PM UTC-6, Soartech wrote:
> or fantasy of flight?
> On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.

Wave and altitude kick. Remember the higher you fly your TAS increases. That"s why speed and distance folks fly the great basin. Crusing at 16-18 thousand gets you a 30 Kt kick in TAS. Here's his story from the OLC. Best. #711.
___________

Pilot:
Co-pilot Miguel Iturmendi.
Mission was to fly a declared 300 km out-and-return between Inyokern and Big Pine.
The forecast said the wave would be weak early with winds and lift increasing in the late afternoon.
During the first lap, the wave was not good between Cindercone and Manzanar....the turn was covered in cloud.
During the second lap, the lift was better...the speed was 278 kph.
By the third lap, the lift was ripping and the clouds much better...the speed was 305.12 kph (189.62 mph)...
Late in the day the Antelope Valley was overcast. We descended through a large hole in the overcast near California City.
Had a Sage 2 clearance to FL290 in R-2508.
For photos see www.tumblr.com/SoaringBlog.
Thanks, Cindy for coordinating the Sage 2; Joshua for the outstanding service; and Doug T, Greg, Beth, & Jackie for crewing.

[Duster]

Link doesn't work for me

[RobKol]

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:28:43 AM UTC-7, Duster wrote:
> Link doesn't work for me

http://soaringblog.tumblr.com/

[Soartech]

> Wave and altitude kick. Remember the higher you fly your TAS increases. That"s why speed and distance folks fly the great basin. Crusing at 16-18 thousand gets you a 30 Kt kick in TAS. Here's his story from the OLC. Best. #711.

Tom, Thanks for the explanation. I recalled it as the other way around.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:01:26 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> or fantasy of flight?
> On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.

A rule of thumb under standard conditions is about 2%/thousand feet increase in True Airspeed. So, if you're indicating 100kts at 10% feet you're actually doing closer to 120kts over the ground in still air.

Now, the problem kicks in with flutter and aeroelasticity, so the VNE (indicated) decreases with altitude in most gliders. I'll leave it at that, since it's been more than 30 years since my last problem set on that topic :-)

P3

[Ian[_2_]]

On 21/09/2016 03:24, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 7:01:26 PM UTC-6, Soartech wrote:
>> or fantasy of flight?
>> On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.

> Wave and altitude kick. Remember the higher you fly your TAS increases. That"s why speed and distance folks fly the great basin. Crusing at 16-18 thousand gets you a 30 Kt kick in TAS. Here's his story from the OLC. Best. #711.

> Pilot:
> Co-pilot Miguel Iturmendi.
> Mission was to fly a declared 300 km out-and-return between Inyokern and Big Pine.
> The forecast said the wave would be weak early with winds and lift increasing in the late afternoon.
> During the first lap, the wave was not good between Cindercone and Manzanar...the turn was covered in cloud.
> During the second lap, the lift was better...the speed was 278 kph.
> By the third lap, the lift was ripping and the clouds much better...the speed was 305.12 kph (189.62 mph)...
> Late in the day the Antelope Valley was overcast. We descended through a large hole in the overcast near California City.
> Had a Sage 2 clearance to FL290 in R-2508.
> For photos see www.tumblr.com/SoaringBlog.
> Thanks, Cindy for coordinating the Sage 2; Joshua for the outstanding service; and Doug T, Greg, Beth, & Jackie for crewing.

Hats off to the pilots for their performance. But the above looks a bit
extreme. So I did some checking. Google found me a copy of the "Flight
Manual for Powered Sailplane, Arcus M" at

http://www.schaenis-soaring.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Doku-Download/Arcus_M_AFM_ENG.pdf

Around page page 38 of that document is a table listing Max permitted
speed verses altitude. I listed 3 points in their hight band below and
used my old circular flight computer to find the TAS at each of the
altitude.

Altitude (m) VNE (km/h) TAS (km/h)
7000 220 318
8000 207 320
9000 195 318

There is obviously a pattern above. To achieve an average cross country
speed of 305km/h must have required operating right on the edge of the
envelope for the entire flight.

Ian

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 9:10:35 AM UTC+12, Ian wrote:
> On 21/09/2016 03:24, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 7:01:26 PM UTC-6, Soartech wrote:
> >> or fantasy of flight?
> >> On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.
>
> > Wave and altitude kick. Remember the higher you fly your TAS increases. That"s why speed and distance folks fly the great basin. Crusing at 16-18 thousand gets you a 30 Kt kick in TAS. Here's his story from the OLC. Best. #711.
>
> > Pilot:
> > Co-pilot Miguel Iturmendi.
> > Mission was to fly a declared 300 km out-and-return between Inyokern and Big Pine.
> > The forecast said the wave would be weak early with winds and lift increasing in the late afternoon.
> > During the first lap, the wave was not good between Cindercone and Manzanar...the turn was covered in cloud.
> > During the second lap, the lift was better...the speed was 278 kph.
> > By the third lap, the lift was ripping and the clouds much better...the speed was 305.12 kph (189.62 mph)...
> > Late in the day the Antelope Valley was overcast. We descended through a large hole in the overcast near California City.
> > Had a Sage 2 clearance to FL290 in R-2508.
> > For photos see www.tumblr.com/SoaringBlog.
> > Thanks, Cindy for coordinating the Sage 2; Joshua for the outstanding service; and Doug T, Greg, Beth, & Jackie for crewing.
>
> Hats off to the pilots for their performance. But the above looks a bit
> extreme. So I did some checking. Google found me a copy of the "Flight
> Manual for Powered Sailplane, Arcus M" at
>
> http://www.schaenis-soaring.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Doku-Download/Arcus_M_AFM_ENG.pdf
>
> Around page page 38 of that document is a table listing Max permitted
> speed verses altitude. I listed 3 points in their hight band below and
> used my old circular flight computer to find the TAS at each of the
> altitude.
>
> Altitude (m) VNE (km/h) TAS (km/h)
> 7000 220 318
> 8000 207 320
> 9000 195 318
>
> There is obviously a pattern above. To achieve an average cross country
> speed of 305km/h must have required operating right on the edge of the
> envelope for the entire flight.
>
> Ian

The police won't come knocking on your door if you exceed the "permitted" speed.

They're designed to 40% (?) above Vne and test flown to 20% (?) over.

Yes, exceeding the Vne printed in the manual makes you a test pilot. That's part and parcel of world record flying. Don't try it at home.

[howard banks]

Every glider flight manual I studied made it clear that the flight tested limits laid out applied up to 3000 meters ... over that you are relying on a combination of theory, over-design, excessive build over required standards, and it always seemed to me good fortune. I have no idea if such applied to the Arcus M used by Payne.



On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:01:26 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> or fantasy of flight?
> On page 52 of the September issue of Soaring magazine Jim Payne is listed as having flown an out and return course of 300 km at an average speed of an amazing ground speed of 189.62 MPH ! Can someone please explain how he did this when the Vne of the Arcus M is 174 MPH. It seems to me the only way to do this is to somehow fly (at Vne the entire flight),downwind, on both out and return legs.

[[email protected]]

Jim's a retired USAF test pilot, so I'm sure understands all the intricacies of flying near Vne.

I'm not an aerodynamicist so here's my lay understanding. A glider's Vne is the true airspeed as indicated IAS at typically 3000m. If I recall, my ASH-26E redline was 146 KIAS which worked out to 160-ish TAS. The chart Schleicher provides for Vne above 3000m drops the IAS to keep the TAS at or below 160.

My ASW-27 chart is:
< 10K 151 knots
< 16.5K 133 knots
< 23K 119 knots
etc...

In the '26 I flew a 100 km triangle in wave between 14 and 18K MSL so limited my IAS to a conservative 120 knots, which I maintained nearly the whole time. The achieved speed for the triangle was a bit over 130 knots. So TAS is your friend even below 18K!

If repeating this in the '27 I would again use 120 as a "safe" Vne for below 18K.

5Z

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 6:59:10 PM UTC-7, howard banks wrote:
> Every glider flight manual I studied made it clear that the flight tested limits laid out applied up to 3000 meters ... over that you are relying on a combination of theory, over-design, excessive build over required standards, and it always seemed to me good fortune. I have no idea if such applied to the Arcus M used by Payne.

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Designed and test to 11% above vne. Not enough margin there for any excursions above VNE..

[Soartech]

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 2:03:52 AM UTC-4, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
> Designed and test to 11% above vne. Not enough margin there for any excursions above VNE.

Never have seen it but I read that wave lift is very smooth and nearly continuous. This flight, so close to (or above) Vne, could not be done in thermal lift. There should really be two classes of records for these very different conditions.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Out and return speed records are now basically wave records and limited to VNE pretty much. To break them you need a glider with faster VNE, or risk breaking your glider.

Ramy

[Papa3[_2_]]

IIRC, the Duckhawk was to be built in various versions including one with a VNE in excess of 400KPH. As far as I can tell, serial production was never started. I wonder if they'd build one to order? You know, for someone that just HAS to break a world record....

P3

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

ASW-17 with short tips, effectively "no VNE" according to some rumors I've heard back with the old "start gate limbo" they had before loggers........ It was more, "how solid is your brass, how rough the air?".

Fairly impressive ship flown by some (still) impressive pilots......

[Tomasz Sielicki]

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 1:27:08 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> IIRC, the Duckhawk was to be built in various versions including one with a VNE in excess of 400KPH. As far as I can tell, serial production was never started. I wonder if they'd build one to order? You know, for someone that just HAS to break a world record....
>
> P3

Take a look at this: Polish aerobatic glider from 1949 IS-4 Jastrzab (Hawk)with Vne of 450 kph (243 kt):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-4_Jastrz%C4%85b

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:32:52 -0700, Tomasz Sielicki wrote:

> On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 1:27:08 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
>> IIRC, the Duckhawk was to be built in various versions including one
>> with a VNE in excess of 400KPH. As far as I can tell, serial
>> production was never started. I wonder if they'd build one to order?
>> You know, for someone that just HAS to break a world record....
>>
>> P3
>
> Take a look at this: Polish aerobatic glider from 1949 IS-4 Jastrzab
> (Hawk)with Vne of 450 kph (243 kt):
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-4_Jastrz%C4%85b

Interesting, but the Wikipedia numbers are deeply suspect (Vne 450 km/h,
Va 2300 km/h) - c'mon WikiEditor, whoever you are, next time try to
remember to *READ WHAT YOU WROTE* before committing your edit. Its really
not that hard.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Paul Agnew]

Choosing altitudes based on winds aloft can make all the difference. Smaller headwind or crosswind one direction, the get into a strong tailwind the other direction and the assumption that out and back equalizes the speeds goes out the window.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Unless you can go above 18K, there is no much range to choose altitude in the Sierra wave. You basically try to stay between 17K to 18K the whole flight.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

The design margins are far less than those indicated. More like 10-11 %.
Better not encourage breaking the limits.
By the way, while practically all sailplanes can withstand higher g loads than required (recent wings generally fail at very high loads), the same can't be said about flutter resistance.

On the other hand, a few models can be upgraded for increased flutter limits, probably by adding balancing masses and maybe improved control linkages.
Talk to the manufacturer to search into it.

Aldo Cernezzi



>
> They're designed to 40% (?) above Vne and test flown to 20% (?) over.
>
> Yes, exceeding the Vne printed in the manual makes you a test pilot. That's part and parcel of world record flying. Don't try it at home.