Best Soaring Flight Sim?

[Eggs]

Thanks to everyone for the great info regarding plans-built gliders. I'm
still doing some research, hopefully will find something soon.

In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a good PC flight simulator
progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of "Soaring Flight
Simulator" and it seems pretty impressive, but before I part with the $70
registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your opinions.

I also have Microsoft FS 2000. Would it be worth the upgrade to 2004? Is
there a way to make it a better, more realistic, soaring sim?

Questions, questions. Someday I'll have answers to share too.

Thanks!

Curt

[remove parentheses from (@) in address to reply directly]

[Bill Daniels]

I haven't tried SFS but people whose opinion I value, like it a lot.

I have tried X-Plane with several of the add-in gliders. I really like the
flight dynamics model of X-Plane and feel it is very close to the actual
handling of the gliders available.

A lot depends on the input hardware you use. A good stick and pedals are
required. A throttle adapted to serve as the spoiler handle helps a lot
too.

One neat thing about X-Plane is that it there is a lot of scalability in
that the sim can grow to a near professional simulator. It is FAA approved
for those Part 61 training tasks that can be done in a simulator.

I have been asking for a USB pneumatic signal generator that can turn the
sim's virtual pitot/static/TE pressures into real ones so that real glider
instruments can be used in a home sim cockpit. I have a dream of yanking
the panel out of the glider and fitting it to a home cockpit with the sim
generating the outside views - great for snowy winter evenings. I hear one
may be in the works.

Bill Daniels

"Eggs" > wrote in message
t...
> Thanks to everyone for the great info regarding plans-built gliders. I'm
> still doing some research, hopefully will find something soon.
>
> In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a good PC flight
simulator
> progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of "Soaring Flight
> Simulator" and it seems pretty impressive, but before I part with the $70
> registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your opinions.
>
> I also have Microsoft FS 2000. Would it be worth the upgrade to 2004? Is
> there a way to make it a better, more realistic, soaring sim?
>
> Questions, questions. Someday I'll have answers to share too.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Curt
>
> [remove parentheses from (@) in address to reply directly]
>
>

[Vaughn]

"Eggs" > wrote in message
t...

> In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a good PC flight
simulator
> progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of "Soaring Flight
> Simulator" and it seems pretty impressive, but before I part with the $70
> registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your opinions.

It all depends on what you want the flight simulator for. If you just
want to have fun and perhaps learn a little about flight management and
procedures, or even play with different virtual glider designs, then go for
it. If learning to fly is your goal, then go spend your time and money on
real flying and forget the sim.

I recognize that there are many here that vigorously disagree, but I
have to go with my own experience, both at being a student and an
instructor.

Vaughn

[Stewart Kissel]

Try-
http://virtualsoaring.org/index.html


At 20:06 14 September 2003, Eggs wrote:
>Thanks to everyone for the great info regarding plans-built
>gliders. I'm
>still doing some research, hopefully will find something
>soon.
>
>In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a
>good PC flight simulator
>progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of
>'Soaring Flight
>Simulator' and it seems pretty impressive, but before
>I part with the $70
>registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your
>opinions.
>
>I also have Microsoft FS 2000. Would it be worth the
>upgrade to 2004? Is
>there a way to make it a better, more realistic, soaring
>sim?
>
>Questions, questions. Someday I'll have answers to
>share too.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Curt
>
>[remove parentheses from (@) in address to reply directly]
>
>
>

[Udo Rumpf]

I highly recommend the SFS PC. It stand for Soaring Flight Simulator.
Before I was introduced to it by a well know soaring personality, I had
dismissed a PC based simulator.

This software provides the feel, visuals and technical input to be a real
adjunct to live training. In fact in Germany some clubs use this simulator
in parallel.

I have used it in contest mode many times , as well as for ridge flying.

It is a joy to fly this simulator and once or twice a week for 1 1/2 hours
each, I am able to take my mind off things and enjoy myself.

It is useful to keep sharp in the off season as well

SFS software is written by contest soaring pilots.

I have since used other soaring specific simulators and SFS is the best in
my opinion.

It is important to have the best joystick possible.
I use the MS Force Feedback 2. All the functions can be programmed on to the
stick and base.
Flap and trim 4 buttons on the base.
as well as spoilers ( throttle control)
Head switch and reset buttons,
water dump, cable release
landing gear all on the stick.

The Force feed back stick will allow you to feel when the landing gear comes
up or down.
or when the air frame start shaking ( over speeding) the sound adds an extra
dimension.
Regards
Udo

[Eric Greenwell]

In article >,
says...
> I highly recommend the SFS PC. It stand for Soaring Flight Simulator.
> Before I was introduced to it by a well know soaring personality, I had
> dismissed a PC based simulator.
>
> This software provides the feel, visuals and technical input to be a real
> adjunct to live training. In fact in Germany some clubs use this simulator
> in parallel.

Does it simulate motorglider power operations in anyway? Self-
launchers can be complex to operate, and something like this might be
a good review before the season starts.
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

[Udo Rumpf]

I have not explored the Motor Gliding side of the program.
I will try the DG 800 which is provided and let you know how it will work.
Udo


> Does it simulate motorglider power operations in anyway? Self-
> launchers can be complex to operate, and something like this might be
> a good review before the season starts.
> --
> !Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
> directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Richland, WA (USA)

[Mark Hawkins]

If you haven't tried Sailors of the Sky(www.sailorsofthesky.com)
yet, then you definatly should. Good flight dynamics
and glider handling. More included glider types (18)
than any other glider sim. Includes an editor to easily
create more. In fact, about 10 additional gliders
have already been built by people other than the program
designer. Comes with 4 soaring sites (Minden, Kufstein,
Ocana & Mafikeng) with the full version. Includes
a terrain editor to create new sceneries. In fact,
several have already been created by others. Finally,
it is currenlty the only Glider Sim that allows for
multiplayer flying across the internet. This includes
both pleasure and competitions. There is an active
multiplayer and competition community which has formed.
Check it out.Later!-MarkAt 20:06 14 September 2003, Eggs wrote:>Thanks to everyone for the great info regarding plans-built
>gliders. I'm>still doing some research, hopefully will find something
>soon.>>In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a
>good PC flight simulator>progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of
>'Soaring Flight>Simulator' and it seems pretty impressive, but before
>I part with the $70>registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your
>opinions.>>I also have Microsoft FS 2000. Would it be worth the
>upgrade to 2004? Is>there a way to make it a better, more realistic, soaring
>sim?>>Questions, questions. Someday I'll have answers to
>share too.>>Thanks!>>Curt>>[remove parentheses from (@) in address to reply directly]>>>

[Udo Rumpf]

Eric,
The DG800 M works as I would expect a motor glider to behave under power.
I took off under own power landed with power and did a few retract and
extent cycles.
All in all very impressive.
Udo
> Does it simulate motorglider power operations in anyway? Self-
> launchers can be complex to operate, and something like this might be
> a good review before the season starts.
> Eric Greenwell
> Richland, WA (USA)

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:42:32 GMT, "Vaughn"
> wrote:

>
>"Eggs" > wrote in message
t...
>
>> In the meantime, anyone have any suggestions for a good PC flight
>simulator
>> progam for soaring? I've loaded the trial version of "Soaring Flight
>> Simulator" and it seems pretty impressive, but before I part with the $70
>> registration fee, I thought I'd ask you gurus for your opinions.
>
> It all depends on what you want the flight simulator for. If you just
>want to have fun and perhaps learn a little about flight management and
>procedures, or even play with different virtual glider designs, then go for
>it. If learning to fly is your goal, then go spend your time and money on
>real flying and forget the sim.
>
> I recognize that there are many here that vigorously disagree, but I
>have to go with my own experience, both at being a student and an
>instructor.
>

I'll second that. I have SFS 3 (but then my PC is too slow for SFS 4
and has no OpenGL support). I thought SFS 3 was a fine sim and even
bought pedals for it. However, I haven't touched it since being about
half way to solo for two good reasons:

- no glider simulator can give realistic all round views and won't
until there's a good VR helmet available. Looking through the
'letterbox' and flipping it round with the coolie hat is no
substitute.

- no butt feel

That said, the BGA have a demo booth that's the front half of a two
seater (G 103?) with a projection screen for forward view and the
instruments projected onto a blank instrument panel. It uses SFS4,
connected to the original stick and pedals. That means that the trim
must work too. Dunno about the air brake. I saw it in decidedly
sub-optimal lighting conditions, but it seemed to work quite well.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Tim]

Martin Gregorie >s comments read:

>That said, the BGA have a demo booth that's the front half of a two
>seater (G 103?) with a projection screen for forward view and the
>instruments projected onto a blank instrument panel. It uses SFS4,
>connected to the original stick and pedals. That means that the trim
>must work too. Dunno about the air brake. I saw it in decidedly
>sub-optimal lighting conditions, but it seemed to work quite well.

The airbrakes do work although you can't lock them from the back seat.
It is a great crowd puller but has a few rough edges that need ironing
out. Firstly it could do with a minimum of 2000 lumens for bright
conditions and secondly moving the project from directly over the back
seat.
--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:40:14 +0100, Tim
> wrote:

>Martin Gregorie >s comments read:
>
>>That said, the BGA have a demo booth that's the front half of a two
>>seater (G 103?) with a projection screen for forward view and the
>>instruments projected onto a blank instrument panel. It uses SFS4,
>>connected to the original stick and pedals. That means that the trim
>>must work too. Dunno about the air brake. I saw it in decidedly
>>sub-optimal lighting conditions, but it seemed to work quite well.
>
>The airbrakes do work although you can't lock them from the back seat.
>It is a great crowd puller but has a few rough edges that need ironing
>out. Firstly it could do with a minimum of 2000 lumens for bright
>conditions and secondly moving the project from directly over the back
>seat.

I think the last item has been done - at least I didn't notice
anything blocking access to the back seat. I think the projector is
now further back.

I agree that more light value is necessary. Its probably OK in an
indoor setting, but outside on a sunny day, as it was, the display was
decidedly dim.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Tim]

Martin Gregorie >s comments read:

>I think the last item has been done - at least I didn't notice
>anything blocking access to the back seat. I think the projector is
>now further back.

I didn't explain it very well ... we had the simulator the week after
you did ... but the projector is above the instructors (back seat)
head with the hot air venting straight down - an effect just like
being sat under a hair dryer. ;-)
--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"

[Liam Finley]

Martin Gregorie > wrote in message >...
>
> - no glider simulator can give realistic all round views and won't
> until there's a good VR helmet available. Looking through the
> 'letterbox' and flipping it round with the coolie hat is no
> substitute.
>
> - no butt feel
>

I agree, the limited field of view inherent to PC based simulators is
one of the primary reasons I regard them as little more than toys, no
matter how good their graphics and sound effects become. This
limitation may be tolerable for power sims, since power pilots rarely
look out the window anyways, but for soaring it's leaving out an
essential part of the experience. I've been playing with PC
simulators for about 20 years, and in that time there's been
approximately zero progress in this direction. I hope we don't have
to wait for neural implants in another 20 years for this to improve.

[Stewart Kissel]

Martin-Have you checked out these?

http://www.edimensional.com/products/trackir.htm

I use there 3D system and am quite pleased with it.
Using addon scenery and gliders in FS2k2, I self-launch
and ridge soar at Torrey Pines for a quick flight.
The virtual cockpit in 3D is very good in the ASW28.
I agree that there is still a long ways to go-and
I miss the periphael vision.




At 19:24 15 September 2003, Liam Finley wrote:
>Martin Gregorie wrote in message news:...
>>
>> - no glider simulator can give realistic all round
>>views and won't
>> until there's a good VR helmet available. Looking
>>through the
>> 'letterbox' and flipping it round with the coolie
>>hat is no
>> substitute.
>>
>> - no butt feel
>>
>
>I agree, the limited field of view inherent to PC based
>simulators is
>one of the primary reasons I regard them as little
>more than toys, no
>matter how good their graphics and sound effects become.
> This
>limitation may be tolerable for power sims, since power
>pilots rarely
>look out the window anyways, but for soaring it's leaving
>out an
>essential part of the experience. I've been playing
>with PC
>simulators for about 20 years, and in that time there's
>been
>approximately zero progress in this direction. I hope
>we don't have
>to wait for neural implants in another 20 years for
>this to improve.
>

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:32:59 +0100, Tim
> wrote:

>Martin Gregorie >s comments read:
>
>>I think the last item has been done - at least I didn't notice
>>anything blocking access to the back seat. I think the projector is
>>now further back.
>
>I didn't explain it very well ... we had the simulator the week after
>you did ... but the projector is above the instructors (back seat)
>head with the hot air venting straight down - an effect just like
>being sat under a hair dryer. ;-)

Ah ha. Now I understand...

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Martin Gregorie]

On 15 Sep 2003 20:01:15 GMT, Stewart Kissel
> wrote:

>Martin-Have you checked out these?
>
>http://www.edimensional.com/products/trackir.htm
>
>I use there 3D system and am quite pleased with it.
> Using addon scenery and gliders in FS2k2, I self-launch
>and ridge soar at Torrey Pines for a quick flight.
> The virtual cockpit in 3D is very good in the ASW28.
> I agree that there is still a long ways to go-and
>I miss the periphael vision.
>
>
Very interesting and no, I hadn't seen them.

Have you got both the head movement sensor and the glasses? If so,
does it give a smooth scroll or jump as though the coolie hat has been
flicked? I'm guessing that it does the latter from the website
description.

Being picky, I'd want at least 300 degree horizontal smooth scrolling
and 270 degree vertical scrolling combined with the ability to scroll
as fast as I can move my head before I'd be happy. Oh yeah, and it
would need some work in the sim too, to stop it leaving the panel
always in view when you look round - unlike some (earlier?) versions
of MSFS.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Martin Gregorie]

On 15 Sep 2003 22:39:34 GMT, Stewart Kissel
> wrote:

>Martin-
>
>I do not have this head movement detector-my simulator spending starts up=
> in the winter and if I can get a good report on these, I may order some.=
> The coolie hat does not jump when scrolling in the VC, it moves smoothl=
>y and remains in whatever spot you stop at. I would expect the head dete=
>ctor to do the same. Also the coolie hat will pan in a full orbit in all=
> directions-so your criteria for this may be met. =20
>
I think I missed something in that case.

Are you saying that the software for the specs generates a huge
wrap-round virtual screen and also takes over handling of the coolie
hat and other scrolling controls? Do the specs run off a normal
graphics card or do they have their own?

>I had not paid much attention to the video-game aspect of PC's, but this =
>is a huge market. Maybe flight simulators will be able to tag along on s=
>ome of the technology being developed. =20
>
Sounds like it could be good for simmers. Its about time there was
some movement in display technology.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Tim]

Martin Gregorie >s comments read:

>Ah ha. Now I understand...


I'm still trying to explain the blue rinse to my other half ;-)
--
Tim - ASW20CL "20"