TV Ad featuring Klaus Ohlmann and an Antares 23E

[Tom (TK)]

https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 3:03:45 PM UTC-5, Tom (TK) wrote:
> https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8

Cool! I have often wondered about a gravity launch from there. Have no idea what is further down the valley, though.

[Tony[_5_]]

Fun, but seeing the VW get the glider airborne while going UP the hill would be more impressive!

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:06:56 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> Fun, but seeing the VW get the glider airborne while going UP the hill would be more impressive!

For that matter, the Antares could have probably rolled down the hill and taken off on it's own...

What I want to know is how the glider got pulled through the hangar's steel supporting beams and walls without damage to it's wings!

Kirk

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 11:32:34 AM UTC+13, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:06:56 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> > Fun, but seeing the VW get the glider airborne while going UP the hill would be more impressive!
>
> For that matter, the Antares could have probably rolled down the hill and taken off on it's own...

According to https://skyvector.com/airport/LFLJ/Courchevel-Airport there is a difference of 212 ft between the ends. I'm not sure that's reliable. Other sources say the length is 537m with a gradient of 18.5 or 18.6. If I understand what "gradient" means in this context, then that's a 99 m height difference (325 ft).

Without friction loses, a 212 ft drop is good for 69 knots from a standing start. 325 ft is good for 85 knots. With friction ... I don't know. Probably more than stall speed anyway.

[BravoMike]

Gravity launches are a common and approved by aviation authorities method at the Bezmiechowa Gliderport in south-eastern Poland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWcXja9C1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHNRok6Dtk
etc.

I did it there in my (then) SZD-55 standard class modern ship, and could easily continue with an extended ridge flying. Great and costs next to nothing.

BravoMike

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 2:00:33 PM UTC+13, BravoMike wrote:
> Gravity launches are a common and approved by aviation authorities method at the Bezmiechowa Gliderport in south-eastern Poland:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWcXja9C1s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHNRok6Dtk
> etc.
>
> I did it there in my (then) SZD-55 standard class modern ship, and could easily continue with an extended ridge flying. Great and costs next to nothing.

This is well known :-)

But how much height is used in the launch? Looks like no more than 150 ft. But then the Bocian stalls a lot slower than modern glass and should need only about half the height loss as a result -- exactly half if the stall speeds are e.g. 28 and 40 knots (sqrt(2) ratio)

Plus I'm sure there was a headwind.

[Andor Holtsmark[_2_]]

At 09:57 30 September 2016, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>Plus I'm sure there was a headwind.
>

Apparently, the biggest issue was to pass the SUV at a sufficiently low
altitude.

The video is all about selling the SUV, not about demonstrating a properly
executed aerotow.

[Andor Holtsmark[_2_]]

At 09:57 30 September 2016, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>Plus I'm sure there was a headwind.
>

Apparently, the biggest issue was to pass the SUV at a sufficiently low
altitude.

The video is all about selling the SUV, not about demonstrating a properly
executed aerotow.

[Andor Holtsmark[_2_]]

At 09:57 30 September 2016, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>Plus I'm sure there was a headwind.
>

Apparently, the biggest issue was to pass the SUV at a sufficiently low
altitude.

The video is all about selling the SUV, not about demonstrating a properly
executed aerotow.

[[email protected]]

What? No anti-lock brakes on the VW?

[HGXC[_4_]]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:03:45 PM UTC-4, Tom (TK) wrote:
> https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8

No wing runner?

DC

[Dan Marotta]

It did not look to me like a gravity launch would have worked at the
airport in the commercial considering how close to the end of the runway
the glider released the rope and how hard (apparently) the car was
trying to pull. Still it was a heart-pounding video...

On 9/29/2016 7:00 PM, BravoMike wrote:
> Gravity launches are a common and approved by aviation authorities method at the Bezmiechowa Gliderport in south-eastern Poland:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHWcXja9C1s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHNRok6Dtk
> etc.
>
> I did it there in my (then) SZD-55 standard class modern ship, and could easily continue with an extended ridge flying. Great and costs next to nothing.
>
> BravoMike

--
Dan, 5J

[Michael Opitz]

At 15:43 30 September 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>It did not look to me like a gravity launch would have worked at
the
>airport in the commercial considering how close to the end of the
runway
>the glider released the rope and how hard (apparently) the car
was
>trying to pull. Still it was a heart-pounding video...

Dan,

It is a commercial designed to get your heart rate up. I don't know
about the location altitude/power degradation difference, but I have
participated in many auto tow launches from Harris Hill in past
years. The pavement is listed on the sectional at 1,100' long, plus
there is some grass going down the hill. The elevation difference
might be 50' by the time one gets down to the last usable grass.

During one 15 Meter Nationals back in the early 1980's, we had
scrubbed a day that was having a late afternoon frontal passage.
I announced that I would auto tow any competitors into the ridge lift
(after the front passed) if a launch was desired. A number of
competitors took me up on the offer, quite a few of whom did not
yet have ground launch endorsements. I gave them the requisite
instruction needed, and used my 1978 Chevy station wagon with a
small 283 cubic inch V8 (no anti-lock brakes yet either). Dick
Johnson rode "shotgun" next to me, and we used a standard ~250'
aerotow rope. We must have made at least 10 successful auto
launches into the ridge lift that afternoon alone, and every one of
those pilots that I launched came up to thank me for the experience
afterwards.

It would appear to me that the VW commercial overly dramatizes
how little room there was left for the car to stop. So, if that is the
case, then might not a gravity launch be possible given a good stiff
headwind? I don't know for sure about that, but I am pretty certain
that there was a much larger than apparent safety margin while
filming the commercial than there appears in the final product.

RO

[AS]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:03:45 PM UTC-4, Tom (TK) wrote:
> https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8

Well made video - no doubt!
I seem to remember an accident a few years ago during the making of a commercial which involved an auto-tow and a modern two-seat glider. Glad to see that his commercial shoot went over without a glitch.
Uli

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 1:00:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
> During one 15 Meter Nationals back in the early 1980's, we had
> scrubbed a day that was having a late afternoon frontal passage.
> I announced that I would auto tow any competitors into the ridge lift
> (after the front passed) if a launch was desired. A number of
> competitors took me up on the offer, quite a few of whom did not
> yet have ground launch endorsements. I gave them the requisite
> instruction needed, and used my 1978 Chevy station wagon with a
> small 283 cubic inch V8 (no anti-lock brakes yet either). Dick
> Johnson rode "shotgun" next to me, and we used a standard ~250'
> aerotow rope. We must have made at least 10 successful auto
> launches into the ridge lift that afternoon alone, and every one of
> those pilots that I launched came up to thank me for the experience
> afterwards.

Yep, thanks again for the launch ;-)
See ya, Dave

[Ernst]

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 12:42:04 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:03:45 PM UTC-4, Tom (TK) wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8
>
> Well made video - no doubt!
> I seem to remember an accident a few years ago during the making of a commercial which involved an auto-tow and a modern two-seat glider. Glad to see that his commercial shoot went over without a glitch.
> Uli

Yes, it is almost 5 years ago that Lynn Weller died in his DG-1000. Do not want to open old wounds, it is a very sad story. I guess the case is still in courts and General Motors legal machine is running in overdrive.

In my opinion, stunts like this are a disservice to the entire glider community. I have a lot of respect for Klaus Ohlmann, but this makes me think. Likely the entire clip is virtual, like the Antares getting out of the hangar...

Ernst

[Michael Opitz]

At 17:42 30 September 2016, Dave Nadler wrote:
>On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 1:00:06 PM UTC-4, Michael
Opitz wrote:
>> During one 15 Meter Nationals back in the early 1980's, we had
>> scrubbed a day that was having a late afternoon frontal
passage.
>> I announced that I would auto tow any competitors into the
ridge lift
>> (after the front passed) if a launch was desired. A number of
>> competitors took me up on the offer, quite a few of whom did
not
>> yet have ground launch endorsements. I gave them the
requisite
>> instruction needed, and used my 1978 Chevy station wagon
with a
>> small 283 cubic inch V8 (no anti-lock brakes yet either). Dick
>> Johnson rode "shotgun" next to me, and we used a standard
~250'
>> aerotow rope. We must have made at least 10 successful auto
>> launches into the ridge lift that afternoon alone, and every one
of
>> those pilots that I launched came up to thank me for the
experience
>> afterwards.
>
>Yep, thanks again for the launch ;-)
>See ya, Dave


YO,

That was a long time ago, but you are still welcome. I was glad to
do it, especially for those pilots who had not yet experienced
something like that.

RO

[George Haeh]

It might have been an aerotow if the VW went off the end - or
perhaps a winch launch if the VW rolled sideways after editing
the runway.

Fortunately no tow drivers were harmed.

Some studded tire manufacturer is scheming a winter
commercial as we speak.

[Dan Marotta]

Mike,

Thanks for that story about Harris Hill. Did any of the gliders you
launched land back on top or did they land in the valley?

I used to go on ground launch safari with my partner in our LS-6a using
a 1,000' rope. Each flight would be straight out with the partner
bringing the trailer and we'd switch off each day. What a great time it
was.

Dan

On 9/30/2016 10:52 AM, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 15:43 30 September 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> It did not look to me like a gravity launch would have worked at
> the
>> airport in the commercial considering how close to the end of the
> runway
>> the glider released the rope and how hard (apparently) the car
> was
>> trying to pull. Still it was a heart-pounding video...
> Dan,
>
> It is a commercial designed to get your heart rate up. I don't know
> about the location altitude/power degradation difference, but I have
> participated in many auto tow launches from Harris Hill in past
> years. The pavement is listed on the sectional at 1,100' long, plus
> there is some grass going down the hill. The elevation difference
> might be 50' by the time one gets down to the last usable grass.
>
> During one 15 Meter Nationals back in the early 1980's, we had
> scrubbed a day that was having a late afternoon frontal passage.
> I announced that I would auto tow any competitors into the ridge lift
> (after the front passed) if a launch was desired. A number of
> competitors took me up on the offer, quite a few of whom did not
> yet have ground launch endorsements. I gave them the requisite
> instruction needed, and used my 1978 Chevy station wagon with a
> small 283 cubic inch V8 (no anti-lock brakes yet either). Dick
> Johnson rode "shotgun" next to me, and we used a standard ~250'
> aerotow rope. We must have made at least 10 successful auto
> launches into the ridge lift that afternoon alone, and every one of
> those pilots that I launched came up to thank me for the experience
> afterwards.
>
> It would appear to me that the VW commercial overly dramatizes
> how little room there was left for the car to stop. So, if that is the
> case, then might not a gravity launch be possible given a good stiff
> headwind? I don't know for sure about that, but I am pretty certain
> that there was a much larger than apparent safety margin while
> filming the commercial than there appears in the final product.
>
> RO
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Michael Opitz]

At 14:18 01 October 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Mike,
>
>Thanks for that story about Harris Hill. Did any of the gliders you
>launched land back on top or did they land in the valley?
>
>I used to go on ground launch safari with my partner in our LS-6a
using
>a 1,000' rope. Each flight would be straight out with the partner
>bringing the trailer and we'd switch off each day. What a great
time it
>was.
>
>Dan


Dan,

It was after a cold front had passed with winds 15+ Kts from the
NW. We launched directly into the ridge lift, and all flights
recovered back on top of Harris Hill....As a matter of fact, every auto
tow launch that I have ever been involved with on Harris hill was
when the ridge was working, and every one of those flights landed
back on top.....

Karl Striedieck has been doing Jeep launches from Eagle Filed for
~40 years. His strip runs parallel to the ridge on top. He uses a
little longer rope so that one can climb up to just over tree top
height before releasing and turning into the ridge lift. Many of his
records were set utilizing the Jeep launch method. Back in early
1985, I was trying to decide which glider to fly at the WGC in Rieti.
KS had just gotten the first Discus in country, so I dragged my DG-
300 to the ridge for some comparison tests. It was also after a
front had passed, so there was good ridge and thermal lift. We
watered up to the max, and Jeep launched. (Karl's first flight in the
new Discus..) Went from ridge to thermals, collected all the
comparison data, then dumped water, climbed up and did it all
again dry. Next, we landed, cut up duct tape into 1/4" squares,
used that to "bug up" the wings, watered up to the max again, and
Jeep launched back into the ridge lift to do the whole process all
over again in "dirty" configuration, both heavy and light. It was a
great day, and led me to overwhelmingly conclude that I needed to
switch from my DG-300 to a Discus-b. Done correctly, it can be a
lot of fun...

RO

[Andor Holtsmark[_2_]]

At 20:58 30 September 2016, Ernst wrote:
>In my opinion, stunts like this are a disservice to the entire glider
>community. I have a lot of respect for Klaus Ohlmann, but this makes me
>think. Likely the entire clip is virtual, like the Antares getting out of
>the hangar...
>
>Ernst


http://www.lange-aviation.com/aktuelles/news/artikel/?tx_news_pi1[news]=50

Not CGI.
A filmteam consisting of some 40 people performed approximately 30 launches
in order to get the film material needed for 90 seconds of video.

The aircraft in question is a 23E, and Mr. Ohlmann would extend the motor
and perform a 180° turn, landing uphill under reduced motor power,
allowing for a quick turnaround for the next shoot.

Now for getting out of the hangar without damaging anything as the wings
pass through the beams.. ..that is some really advanced thechnology that i
am not yet at liberty to discuss in public :)

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 09:43:53 -0600, Dan Marotta
> wrote:

>It did not look to me like a gravity launch would have worked at the
>airport in the commercial considering how close to the end of the runway
>the glider released the rope and how hard (apparently) the car was
>trying to pull. Still it was a heart-pounding video...

The hardest part was to keep the Antares on the ground as long as
possible (they were using negative flap settings to achieve that).

With an un-faked launch it would have been airborne within a couple of
hundred feet.

[Michael Opitz]

At 02:33 02 October 2016, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 09:43:53 -0600, Dan Marotta
> wrote:
>
>>It did not look to me like a gravity launch would have worked at the
>>airport in the commercial considering how close to the end of the
runway
>>the glider released the rope and how hard (apparently) the car was
>>trying to pull. Still it was a heart-pounding video...
>
>The hardest part was to keep the Antares on the ground as long as
>possible (they were using negative flap settings to achieve that).
>
>With an un-faked launch it would have been airborne within a couple
of
>hundred feet.

That is much more like what I thought it should be from my own
personal experiences.. They had to make up some drama for the
commercial...

RO

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 4:03:45 PM UTC-4, Tom (TK) wrote:
> https://youtu.be/5GTX6S8q7x8

I met the videoproducer this September in Serres, France, at Klaus Ohlmann's "Quo Vadis". His name is Jean-Marc Mournier. He is also a glider pilot and instructor. Long story short, he hired a stunt man to do the driving. When told the details, the stunt driver refused to do the stunt, and Jean-Marc did the driving stunt himself!