Heartfelt Thank You

[Charlie Papa[_2_]]

I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person for saving his life.

He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His friend got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin. His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took control and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the aircraft.

We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand why.

My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There is I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You' was rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

[Dan Marotta]

Very will done, indeed!

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.

Dan

On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
> I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person for saving his life.
>
> He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His friend got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin. His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took control and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the aircraft.
>
> We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand why.
>
> My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There is I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You' was rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.

--
Dan, 5J

[David Salmon[_3_]]

At 22:17 03 October 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Very will done, indeed!
>
>It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
>for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
>avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
>and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.
>
>Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
>and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.
>
>Dan
>
>On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
>> I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He
>stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person
>for saving his life.
>>
>> He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor
>glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were
>calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly
>stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His
friend
>got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin.

>His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took
control
>and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the
>aircraft.
>>
>> We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student
>approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the
>2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is
>dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an
>emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your
>training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand
why.
>>
>> My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There
is
>I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club
>based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You'
was
>rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.
>
>--
>Dan, 5J

>
I was surprised to learn that actual spin recovery is not practised in
America. During my 50+ years of gliding annd instructing in the UK it has
always been carried out, which seems very sensible to me, as the experience
can be, and obviously has been a life saver.
Not ony actual spin recoveries are carried out, but many years ago the BGA
introduced a series of Further Stalling and Spinning exercises. These are
aimed at stall/spin avoidance, and are intended to show the pupil that "if
you mistreat the glider like this, this is what is likely to happen". Since
their introduction, the number of stall/spin related accidents has
decreased dramatically. Obviously if the glider doesn't stall , it can't
spin.
It has always been somewhat of a mystery to me, why some of the German
two-seater training gliders were designed to be almost unspinable, at least
without modification, yet pupils then go on to fly gliders that do spin.
One reason why I rate the Puchacz as probably the best available training
glider.
There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for
many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once
have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the
recovery.
One of my most memorable flying experiences was a spin, not in a glider but
in a small aircraft on my instructors course. The National Coach decided to
demonstrate various things to us, including what happened if the rudder was
not centralised after rotation stopped. One second we were spinning far
faster than any glider, the next second we were spinning the other way, and
I don't remember anything in between.
Years later another National Coach showed me that this could happen in a
glider (a Puchacz), but it was not easy to carry out deliberately, and I
found that I failed 3 times out of 4 attempts.

Dave

[Dan Marotta]

I seem to recall the story was that more people died during spin
training than from actual spins so the FAA, in its infinite wisdom,
decided to require spin avoidance training rather than spin recovery
training. Of course the slow, untrained person actually getting into a
spin has no chance to recover and has to rely on the aircraft recovering
itself. I was never much of a fan of that.

On 10/4/2016 2:18 AM, David Salmon wrote:
> At 22:17 03 October 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Very will done, indeed!
>>
>> It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement
>> for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and
>> avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen
>> and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.
>>
>> Having learned to fly in the military, I was very much exposed to spins
>> and thoroughly enjoyed them, even after training.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On 10/3/2016 7:58 AM, Charlie Papa wrote:
>>> I was approached by a former student at our club's closing banquet. He
>> stated he was so happy to see me because he wanted to thank me in person
>> for saving his life.
>>> He explained: after receiving his license, he bought a Sinus motor
>> glider, and went flying with a recreational pilot as his P2. They were
>> calibrating the AoA instrument, with his friend the PF, by repeatedly
>> stalling it. But it was so benign that the stall just mushed. His
> friend
>> got aggressive with it, and stall it did, then dropped a wing into a spin.
>> His friend literally threw up his hands, and my former student took
> control
>> and applied the recovery technique I had taught him, recovering the
>> aircraft.
>>> We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student
>> approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the
>> 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is
>> dramatic. But as the sign at Ridge Soaring gliderport reads, "In an
>> emergency, you don't rise to the occasion; you sink to the level of your
>> training". Read Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book BLINK to understand
> why.
>>> My club is in Canada, where spin training is on the curriculum. There
> is
>> I think only one FBO operating in Canada; the rest of the gliding is club
>> based, and the instructors are unpaid volunteers. But this 'Thank You'
> was
>> rich payment indeed, and worth sharing I think.
>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> I was surprised to learn that actual spin recovery is not practised in
> America. During my 50+ years of gliding annd instructing in the UK it has
> always been carried out, which seems very sensible to me, as the experience
> can be, and obviously has been a life saver.
> Not ony actual spin recoveries are carried out, but many years ago the BGA
> introduced a series of Further Stalling and Spinning exercises. These are
> aimed at stall/spin avoidance, and are intended to show the pupil that "if
> you mistreat the glider like this, this is what is likely to happen". Since
> their introduction, the number of stall/spin related accidents has
> decreased dramatically. Obviously if the glider doesn't stall , it can't
> spin.
> It has always been somewhat of a mystery to me, why some of the German
> two-seater training gliders were designed to be almost unspinable, at least
> without modification, yet pupils then go on to fly gliders that do spin.
> One reason why I rate the Puchacz as probably the best available training
> glider.
> There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for
> many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once
> have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the
> recovery.
> One of my most memorable flying experiences was a spin, not in a glider but
> in a small aircraft on my instructors course. The National Coach decided to
> demonstrate various things to us, including what happened if the rudder was
> not centralised after rotation stopped. One second we were spinning far
> faster than any glider, the next second we were spinning the other way, and
> I don't remember anything in between.
> Years later another National Coach showed me that this could happen in a
> glider (a Puchacz), but it was not easy to carry out deliberately, and I
> found that I failed 3 times out of 4 attempts.
>
> Dave
>

--
Dan, 5J

[MNLou]

A minor correction to Dave -

Our club in the US does, indeed, do both spin avoidance training and actual spin training before solo. We do that in a Puchacz.

Lou - AG

[[email protected]]

Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!

My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?

Maybe you can include training for flying with incompetent pilots that vomit while flying.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 5:03:27 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!
>
> My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?

1) those saying "You have control"
2) those saying "Insha Allah" (subset of the above, God is the copilot)

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Have been around aviation my entire adult life. I know of one instance where letting go of the controls saved one student pilot who inadvertantly had gotten into a spin while practicing slow flight in a cessna 172. As a student pilot just getting ready for his airman check ride, he had not had spin training, only spoke of spinning and recovery, but one thing the instructor had told this student, "if you get into trouble, chop the throttle and take hands and feet off controls". Well, this student did this and the Cessna recovered. I am a believer in teaching pilots how to fly including spinning. I have never been to a glider operation that did not required students to be proficient at spins.


On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:01:06 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 5:03:27 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> > Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!
> >
> > My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?
>
> 1) those saying "You have control"
> 2) those saying "Insha Allah" (subset of the above, God is the copilot)

[Charlie Papa[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 9:45:53 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Have been around aviation my entire adult life. I know of one instance where letting go of the controls saved one student pilot who inadvertantly had gotten into a spin while practicing slow flight in a cessna 172. As a student pilot just getting ready for his airman check ride, he had not had spin training, only spoke of spinning and recovery, but one thing the instructor had told this student, "if you get into trouble, chop the throttle and take hands and feet off controls". Well, this student did this and the Cessna recovered. I am a believer in teaching pilots how to fly including spinning. I have never been to a glider operation that did not required students to be proficient at spins.
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:01:06 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 5:03:27 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> > > Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!
> > >
> > > My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?
> >
> > 1) those saying "You have control"
> > 2) those saying "Insha Allah" (subset of the above, God is the copilot)

The recreational pilot (Canadian version of LSA pilot) did not throw up 'in his hands', - he threw his hands in the air. And yes, for some aircraft, that is a fix. We use 2-33s for ab initio training, and the technique works in them, but it certainly would not in the 2-32. And for the record, the spin recovery method we teach, subject always to override by instructions in the POH, is 1) full opposite rudder, 2) centralise the stick, 3) pause briefly, 4) lower the nose until the auto-rotation stops, 5) centralise the rudder, and 6) pull out of the dive watching the G's

It was, it would seem, no joke. The thanks was as sincere as it gets.

[2G]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 7:30:59 AM UTC-7, Charlie Papa wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 9:45:53 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > Have been around aviation my entire adult life. I know of one instance where letting go of the controls saved one student pilot who inadvertantly had gotten into a spin while practicing slow flight in a cessna 172. As a student pilot just getting ready for his airman check ride, he had not had spin training, only spoke of spinning and recovery, but one thing the instructor had told this student, "if you get into trouble, chop the throttle and take hands and feet off controls". Well, this student did this and the Cessna recovered. I am a believer in teaching pilots how to fly including spinning. I have never been to a glider operation that did not required students to be proficient at spins.
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:01:06 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 5:03:27 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> > > > Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!
> > > >
> > > > My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?
> > >
> > > 1) those saying "You have control"
> > > 2) those saying "Insha Allah" (subset of the above, God is the copilot)
>
> The recreational pilot (Canadian version of LSA pilot) did not throw up 'in his hands', - he threw his hands in the air. And yes, for some aircraft, that is a fix. We use 2-33s for ab initio training, and the technique works in them, but it certainly would not in the 2-32. And for the record, the spin recovery method we teach, subject always to override by instructions in the POH, is 1) full opposite rudder, 2) centralise the stick, 3) pause briefly, 4) lower the nose until the auto-rotation stops, 5) centralise the rudder, and 6) pull out of the dive watching the G's
>
> It was, it would seem, no joke. The thanks was as sincere as it gets.

All glider student pilots get spin training in the U.S. - it is all other student pilots who don't. There is a very practical reason for this: gliders are flown at speeds and attitudes that make spins very possible. Spins in power planes typically occur at altitudes that are not recoverable (base-to-final turns). I once asked my power instructor to demonstrate a spin entry and recovery; his answer: a flat NO! Ironically, if you do a power-on stall (like during a missed approach simulation) it looks to me very much like a spin entry.

Tom

[AS]

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 11:22:56 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 7:30:59 AM UTC-7, Charlie Papa wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 9:45:53 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > Have been around aviation my entire adult life. I know of one instance where letting go of the controls saved one student pilot who inadvertantly had gotten into a spin while practicing slow flight in a cessna 172. As a student pilot just getting ready for his airman check ride, he had not had spin training, only spoke of spinning and recovery, but one thing the instructor had told this student, "if you get into trouble, chop the throttle and take hands and feet off controls". Well, this student did this and the Cessna recovered. I am a believer in teaching pilots how to fly including spinning. I have never been to a glider operation that did not required students to be proficient at spins.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:01:06 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 5:03:27 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> > > > > Oh wow! You are an amazing instructor! This is great!
> > > > >
> > > > > My big question was of the other pilot threw up in his hands? What kind of pilot does that? Is this a joke?
> > > >
> > > > 1) those saying "You have control"
> > > > 2) those saying "Insha Allah" (subset of the above, God is the copilot)
> >
> > The recreational pilot (Canadian version of LSA pilot) did not throw up 'in his hands', - he threw his hands in the air. And yes, for some aircraft, that is a fix. We use 2-33s for ab initio training, and the technique works in them, but it certainly would not in the 2-32. And for the record, the spin recovery method we teach, subject always to override by instructions in the POH, is 1) full opposite rudder, 2) centralise the stick, 3) pause briefly, 4) lower the nose until the auto-rotation stops, 5) centralise the rudder, and 6) pull out of the dive watching the G's
> >
> > It was, it would seem, no joke. The thanks was as sincere as it gets.
>
> All glider student pilots get spin training in the U.S. - it is all other student pilots who don't. There is a very practical reason for this: gliders are flown at speeds and attitudes that make spins very possible. Spins in power planes typically occur at altitudes that are not recoverable (base-to-final turns). I once asked my power instructor to demonstrate a spin entry and recovery; his answer: a flat NO! Ironically, if you do a power-on stall (like during a missed approach simulation) it looks to me very much like a spin entry.
>
> Tom

>>> All glider student pilots get spin training in the U.S. - it is all other student pilots who don't <<<

Tom - I beg to differ! I got my ticket many moons ago in Germany and we certainly had to demonstrate spins and spin recovery as part of our regular training. We used Ka13, L13 and the K21 for that. All do spin nicely.
Uli
AS

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Fantastic to get the feedback. Congrats to you, and others, that may have saved some "bad statistics" over the years.
Yes, I remember that sign at RS.

I believe it was in this discussion, I have also had students (usually in a 2-33) "throw up their hands" when something odd happened (may even have been because I set it up, or, let them get deep) just to see what they would do when stressed. If they threw their hands up, and we had altitude, I would calmly put my hands on their shoulders and say something like, "It's still your airplane, start doing pilot stuff".

A couple times I had to fly it out, then we had a long ground discussion.

I always let them know, I would "let them get in over their head, never let them get over MY head".
Goal was not to scare them, but to push their limits a bit at a time in a sorta controlled environment.

Congrats again!

[JJJ]

As I've discussed in a nearby thread, I'm a kinda-sorta n00b at this, having soloed in a 2-33 40-some years ago and then getting away from it for 40 years, until just recently. Back in those days, we DID spin training (in the 2-33), and I'm glad of it! I intend to insist upon it again when I reach the stage in my re-training that seems right, but it's questionable whether spin training will be made available to me now, even if I want it.

My club has no gliders in which intentional spins are permitted -- not even our Grob 103 Acro :( -- but some nearby commercial FBO's have 2-32's and ASK-21's to play with (Hollister, Williams, Crazy Creek), and they've made it clear to me that they'd love to have my business. :)

;930125']We use a venerable 2-32 for spin training, and for the student approaching solo, it is a 'come to Jesus' moment; the laminar wing of the 2-32 seems binary, - it is flying or it is not, and the attitude is dramatic.

One of my life's fantasies, which may yet come true, is to fly the venerable 2-32. Here is a video I really like, showing an instructor giving his 16-year-old son (or grandson?) spin training in the 2-32 at Crazy Creek (beautiful scenery!) which is between Middletown, Ca., and Clear Lake. Towards the end, as his reward for doing well I think, they do a full loop. That's another of my life's fantasies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV7Vx50qAl4
Thirty-or-forty-some years ago, I went for a commercial touristy glider ride or two when they were still doing that at Calistoga, in what was very probably that very same 2-32.

I seem to recall the story was that more people died during spin training than from actual spins so the FAA, in its infinite wisdom, decided to require spin avoidance training rather than spin recovery training. Of course the slow, untrained person actually getting into a spin has no chance to recover and has to rely on the aircraft recovering itself. I was never much of a fan of that.

Yes, that's the story I've heard too. Note, OTOH, the many stories of pilots (even experienced ones, in both power and gliders) spinning when turning final and going splat. So certainly avoidance training is important, but I agree that full spin recovery matters too. If nothing else, that kind of thing embiggens the student pilot's skill and confidence in making your aircraft do exactly what you want it to do, and that matters bigly.

I always let them know, I would "let them get in over their head, never let them get over MY head". Goal was not to scare them, but to push their limits a bit at a time in a sorta controlled environment.

One of my instructors does just this, and I am glad he does. TBH, I tend to be a bit timid about pushing the limits of my comfort zone (e.g., steep turns), so I really need that, and he does it. Besides, I need that adrenaline hit! :)

;930165']There is no substitute for the experience of actually spinning, which for many people is not the most pleasant thing in gliding, though I did once have a pupil who said that she enjoyed it, her reason for delaying the recovery.

There's that too. It can be a kick. When I did my (limited) spin training back in 1975, we went out over San Francisco Bay to do it. We did two full turns before recovering, the explicit purpose being to demonstrate that spins aren't scary and no reason to panic, and to avoid getting disoriented by looking out into the mid-distance. The instructor had me call out the names of the various bay-shore cities as they went wheeling past -- There's Palo Alto. There's Mountain View / Santa Clara. There's San Jose. There's Milpitas. There's Fremont, etc. It was like combining spin recovery training with a leisurely sight-seeing tour.

It is my understanding that, currently in the US, the only requirement for spin training (except for CFI candidates) is recognition and avoidance of spins. As your story illustrates, a spin can still happen and, with two untrained pilots at the controls, the outcome is uncertain.

This brings me to my main reason for making this post: I want to ask about that. What is the FAA's real stance on this? I keep hearing various stories: Some are saying that FAA no longer requires, or no longer recommends spin training, others tell me that it's absolutely FORBIDDEN for PPG students! Can this be true? Or is it at the school's, or instructor's discretion?

-- J. J.
==========================

[Keith M]

AOPA has a good article called: Stall/spin: Entry point for crash and burn?
Available here: https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
In 1949 the FAA removed the requirement for spin training for private pilots, substituting increased training in stall recognition and recovery, since spins cannot occur without a stall. After the elimination of the spin requirement for private pilots, the incidence of stall/spin accidents actually decreased substantially.
In reviewing 44 fatal stall/spin accidents from 1991 - 2000 and classified as instructional, the Air Safety Foundation found that a shocking 91%(40) of them occurred during dual instruction, with only 9% (4) solo training flights.
The biggest problem is where stall/spin accidents occur. Up high, time to recover. In the pattern, no.

[JJJ]

AOPA has a good article called: Stall/spin: Entry point for crash and burn?
Available he https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
In 1949 the FAA removed the requirement for spin training for private pilots, substituting increased training in stall recognition and recovery, since spins cannot occur without a stall. After the elimination of the spin requirement for private pilots, the incidence of stall/spin accidents actually decreased substantially.
In reviewing 44 fatal stall/spin accidents from 1991 - 2000 and classified as instructional, the Air Safety Foundation found that a shocking 91%(40) of them occurred during dual instruction, with only 9% (4) solo training flights.
The biggest problem is where stall/spin accidents occur. Up high, time to recover. In the pattern, no.

So we really need to spend more time training and practicing stalls and spins in the pattern, right? What could go wrong?

Srsly, if spin training at altitude isn't really much the cause of accidents, then why did eliminating that do much to reduce the number of such accidents? Presumably, it's the increased emphasis on incipient recognition/recovery that did that, but I recall doing that when I took some power lessons 45 years ago too, and in glider lessons 40 years ago.

-- J. J.
====================