Tow rope length?

[WAVEGURU]

It seems that most operations here in the USA use a 200' tow rope, and I've heard that some places in Europe even use a rope as short as 120'. Ropes at our operation are more like 275' because it seems safer and easier when it's longer. What is the rational behind using shorter ropes? I see no reason for short ropes unless you are towing out of a short field.

Boggs

[Tango Whisky]

In Europe, most places I've seen use 40 m / 120 ft. Why any longer ?!

[WAVEGURU]

A longer rope gives you much more time to react to everything. I think it is much safer.

Boggs

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

We start with a ~200' rope, it allows doing multiple new ends and still be a reasonable length, it also allows (when close to full length) more glider movement but keeping the angular distance to the tug reasonable.
When the rope gets towards 100', we either splice two short ropes together or use it for ground ops.

Short ropes are also useful when doing an aero retrieve from a short field.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 9:39:24 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> We start with a ~200' rope, it allows doing multiple new ends and still be a reasonable length, it also allows (when close to full length) more glider movement but keeping the angular distance to the tug reasonable.
> When the rope gets towards 100', we either splice two short ropes together or use it for ground ops.
>
> Short ropes are also useful when doing an aero retrieve from a short field.

Correction Charlie- We start at 225 feet and add length when we get down to about 175 feet.
Short ropes make it harder, especially for students to keep rope angle to the towplane in the "safe " range for any given position error.
We believe we reduce the probability of a tug upset by not letting ropes get too short.
FWIW
UH

[Eric]

British Gliding Association recomendation is 180 to 200ft and we are
in Europe (for a little while yet).

On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT), Waveguru
> wrote:

>It seems that most operations here in the USA use a 200' tow rope, and I've heard that some places in Europe even use a rope as short as 120'. Ropes at our operation are more like 275' because it seems safer and easier when it's longer. What is the rational behind using shorter ropes? I see no reason for short ropes unless you are towing out of a short field.
>
>Boggs

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 4:18:15 PM UTC+3, Waveguru wrote:
> It seems that most operations here in the USA use a 200' tow rope, and I've heard that some places in Europe even use a rope as short as 120'. Ropes at our operation are more like 275' because it seems safer and easier when it's longer. What is the rational behind using shorter ropes? I see no reason for short ropes unless you are towing out of a short field.

If you're towing out of a 1500+ ft field it's hard to see how 50 feet difference on the rope can make the difference between a clearly safe takeoff and a clearly unsafe takeoff.

Or, to look at it another way, if the tug climbs at a 1 in 10 angle (6 knots of climb at 60 knots forward speed), then 50 feet difference in the rope length makes 5 feet difference in clearance over the fence/trees.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Obviously I haven't been flying enough recently.......sigh......

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote on 10/18/2016 6:39 AM:
> We start with a ~200' rope, it allows doing multiple new ends and
> still be a reasonable length, it also allows (when close to full
> length) more glider movement but keeping the angular distance to the
> tug reasonable. When the rope gets towards 100', we either splice two
> short ropes together or use it for ground ops.
>
> Short ropes are also useful when doing an aero retrieve from a short
> field.

I do not want a tow out of a field where shorter rope is needed to make
it safe! An extra 100 feet is not enough safety margin. The best reason
I've read for a short rope out of a field is the dust kicks up behind
the glider, instead of in front of it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[BravoMike]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> It seems that most operations here in the USA use a 200' tow rope, and I've heard that some places in Europe even use a rope as short as 120'. Ropes at our operation are more like 275' because it seems safer and easier when it's longer. What is the rational behind using shorter ropes? I see no reason for short ropes unless you are towing out of a short field.
>
> Boggs

I believe in Poland the basic rope length is still 30 meters/100' when new. If it breaks again and again it might be reduced to 20 meters. In the ground school we were taught to make it as short as 10 meters or 33' for a tow from a short field following an outlanding, where there would be no wing runner. The wake would help to lift the wing immediately. Shorter than 100' ropes are also used for towing to a wave through a rotor.

Personally I never had an issue with the 30 m rope. No slacks plus the advantage of circling together in the 'team' towplane/glider in a search for a good thermal. Traditionally tow pilots feel responsible for helping the glider pilot and leaving them in a good upwind.

When, as a student pilot, I was flying my double silver distance Poznan-Leszno-Poznan (70 km) I intentionally landed in Leszno and was towed back in the air by the local tow plane, and it felt like the rope was longer than usual. For a student pilot, yes, admittedly, it felt a bit more comfortable, but not a big deal.

BravoMike

[BravoMike]

For the sake of this discussion I have just posted my video from 2013 taken at my home Aeroklub Poznanski with a 10 m rope tow given to Jerzy Makula:

https://youtu.be/eBInTKSbq_Y

Incidentally, the rope proved to be so short that the poor girls had to push the glider by 0.5 meter to hook it up.

Enjoy!

BravoMike

[[email protected]]

"Too close for missiles. Switching to guns."

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 9:09:03 PM UTC-4, BravoMike wrote:
> For the sake of this discussion I have just posted my video from 2013 taken at my home Aeroklub Poznanski with a 10 m rope tow given to Jerzy Makula:
>
> https://youtu.be/eBInTKSbq_Y
>
> Incidentally, the rope proved to be so short that the poor girls had to push the glider by 0.5 meter to hook it up.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> BravoMike

That is the best soaring recruitment video I have ever seen.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:09:03 AM UTC+3, BravoMike wrote:
> For the sake of this discussion I have just posted my video from 2013 taken at my home Aeroklub Poznanski with a 10 m rope tow given to Jerzy Makula:
>
> https://youtu.be/eBInTKSbq_Y
>
> Incidentally, the rope proved to be so short that the poor girls had to push the glider by 0.5 meter to hook it up.

I'm disappointed they didn't roll inverted (or via half-loop) during initial climbout.

Maybe more power is needed?

[WAVEGURU]

So the question remains unanswered. Why not use longer ropes for added safety? The shorter the rope, the harder the tow. I wonder if there are any accident statistics?

Boggs

[Surge]

On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 15:18:15 UTC+2, Waveguru wrote:
> It seems that most operations here in the USA use a 200' tow rope, and I've heard that some places in Europe even use a rope as short as 120'. Ropes at our operation are more like 275' because it seems safer and easier when it's longer. What is the rational behind using shorter ropes? I see no reason for short ropes unless you are towing out of a short field.
>
> Boggs

One reason I can think of for a shorter rope is the extra height a tug aircraft requires to clear an obstacle (such as a fence or power line) while landing. Every little bit of extra height greatly increases the required landing distance but if the airfield is that small it probably shouldn't be used for aerotow operations because what is your safety margin on takeoff?
There is always the option of dropping the rope before rejoining the circuit and landing if obstacles are an issue.

Less than 45 meters (150 feet) is looking for trouble IMO.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 9:13:11 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> So the question remains unanswered. Why not use longer ropes for added safety? The shorter the rope, the harder the tow.

I was happy to have a longish towrope when the right landing gear of a Pawnee collapsed at 30 knots and prop strike. (Just enough time and space to avert collision.)

The other day I saw a CG hook launched glider go out of position and pull the tug's tail sideways. A longish rope made this recoverable.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 12:21:28 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I was happy to have a longish towrope when the right landing gear of a
> Pawnee collapsed at 30 knots and prop strike.
> (Just enough time and space to avert collision.)
>
> The other day I saw a CG hook launched glider go out of position
> and pull the tug's tail sideways. A longish rope made this recoverable.

Good grief! Where are you flying???

[Tango Eight]

"Mine's shorter."

"No way. Mine's shorter!"

"Bull****, I have video."

First for everything....

T8

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:28:32 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> "Mine's shorter."
>
> "No way. Mine's shorter!"
>
> "Bull****, I have video."
>
> First for everything....
>
> T8

I said mine was longer!
LOL
UH

[Michael Opitz]

At 21:40 19 October 2016, wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:28:32 PM UTC-4, Tango
Eight wrote:
>> "Mine's shorter."
>>
>> "No way. Mine's shorter!"
>>
>> "Bull****, I have video."
>>
>> First for everything....
>>
>> T8
>
>I said mine was longer!
>LOL
>UH
>
During WWII (1943), the Germans developed a system they called
Starrschlepp in order to tow combat gliders at night and in IFR
conditions. They used an articulated metal shaft that was about one
meter long. After the war, the US Army Air Corps developed a
similar system through information gained from Operation Paperclip
(otherwise known as the "brain drain"). My father was the primary
person involved in this knowledge transfer. It eventually led to the
current air refueling (by boom) method in use by the USAF today. See:
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/bordgerate/schlepp.htm
So there you go.. Does anyone else have shorter than one meter??
Piggyback (bolted on like the Space Shuttle) doesn't count. The
Germans had those in WWII also.

RO

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 8:15:04 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 21:40 19 October 2016, wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:28:32 PM UTC-4, Tango
> Eight wrote:
> >> "Mine's shorter."
> >>
> >> "No way. Mine's shorter!"
> >>
> >> "Bull****, I have video."
> >>
> >> First for everything....
> >>
> >> T8
> >
> >I said mine was longer!
> >LOL
> >UH
> >
> During WWII (1943), the Germans developed a system they called
> Starrschlepp in order to tow combat gliders at night and in IFR
> conditions. They used an articulated metal shaft that was about one
> meter long. After the war, the US Army Air Corps developed a
> similar system through information gained from Operation Paperclip
> (otherwise known as the "brain drain"). My father was the primary
> person involved in this knowledge transfer. It eventually led to the
> current air refueling (by boom) method in use by the USAF today. See:
> http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/bordgerate/schlepp.htm
> So there you go.. Does anyone else have shorter than one meter??
> Piggyback (bolted on like the Space Shuttle) doesn't count. The
> Germans had those in WWII also.
>
> RO

I had the privilege in the early 90's of hearing Rudy explain the process of going to an ever shorter rope during the war. This was at a club meeting. The hairs on the back of my neck still stand up thinking about one meter of tow space. He did claim that the shorer the rope the less difficulty for the glider pilot.

[Dale Watkins]

How does one box the wake ?

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 11:28:32 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> "Mine's shorter."
>
> "No way. Mine's shorter!"
>
> "Bull****, I have video."
>
> First for everything....
>
> T8

How soon we forget...

http://www.batphone.org/_/rsrc/1441874324786/batsignal/thesmartphoneasakindofwearablecomputer/zoolander.png

[Dan Marotta]

Don't need to...

On 10/19/2016 8:31 PM, Dale Watkins wrote:
> How does one box the wake ?

--
Dan, 5J