Hello. New member here. [Archive]

JJJ

October 19th 16, 12:48 PM

Hello, all. I just discovered this site a few hours ago, spent a few hours poking around here, and joined right up. Permit me to introduce myself, if I may.

I took sailplane lessons 40 years ago at Sky Sailing, Fremont, to the point of getting about 4 solo hours in a 2-33, but other things happened in life, and I got away from it. Of all the stupid choices I've made in life, I then spent 40 years kicking myself in the butt over that one. Now at a ripe old age, I've decided to dive right back into it (about 2 months ago), essentially starting over as if a near-ab-initio beginner (almost). In my newly re-incarnated experience, I have about 8 hours dual instruction by now. Hey, I can almost keep a glider behind a tow plane already! :) (ETA: That wasn't true just two weeks ago!)

Poking around this site just in the last couple hours, I already notice two user names who appear to be people I know! (Hi, Buzz! Hi, Ramy!)

As a novice (effectively) student pilot, I expect I'll probably do a lot more reading than writing on this forum for the near foreseeable future. I'll contribute more later, perhaps, once, y'know, I actually know something.
-- J.J.
===================================

Bruce Hoult

October 19th 16, 01:51 PM

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 3:43:08 PM UTC+3, JJJ wrote:
> Hello, all. I just discovered this site a few hours ago, spent a few
> hours poking around here, and joined right up. Permit me to introduce
> myself, if I may.
>
> I took sailplane lessons 40 years ago at Sky Sailing, Fremont, to the
> point of getting about 4 solo hours in a 2-33, but other things happened
> in life, and I got away from it. Of all the stupid choices I've made in
> life, I then spent 40 years kicking myself in the butt over that one.
> Now at a ripe old age, I've decided to dive right back into it (about 2
> months ago), essentially starting over as if a near--ab-initio- beginner
> (almost). In my newly re-incarnated experience, I have about 8 hours
> dual instruction by now. Hey, I can almost keep a glider behind a tow
> plane already! :) (ETA: That wasn't true just two weeks ago!)
>
> Poking around this site just in the last couple hours, I already notice
> two user names who appear to be people I know! (Hi, *Buzz*! Hi,
> *Ramy*!)
>
> As a novice (effectively) student pilot, I expect I'll probably do a lot
> more reading than writing on this forum for the near foreseeable future.
> I'll contribute more later, perhaps, once, y'know, I actually know
> something.

Welcome!

There's some good stuff mixed in with the BS from time to time.

What are you training in now? The same 2-33?

son_of_flubber

October 19th 16, 02:32 PM

Please post updates to this thread as you make progress.

I've heard that soloing at an early age makes it easier to take up the sport later in life. It will be interesting to hear how that works out for you.

Good luck and stick with it!

JJJ

October 19th 16, 08:53 PM

What are you training in now? The same 2-33?

I've heard that soloing at an early age makes it easier to take up the sport later in life. It will be interesting to hear how that works out for you.

40 years ago, I flew at Sky Sailing, Fremont. That operation is long gone from Fremont, now operating out of Warner Springs (https://www.skysailing.com/) in SoCal. I was this close ---||--- to graduating to the SGS 1-26.

I'm training in Grob G-103a's now. I'm finding it a harder plane to fly than I remember the 2-33's being. I'm wondering if that's really true or if it's just me. I see evidence that it's BOTH. On the one hand, I'm 40 years older now, which is known to induce geriatric drag on one's proficiency acquisition velocity. AND I see training videos on U-tube showing students on their 1st, 2nd, 3rd lessons seemingly doing better that I am after approx. 8 hours and 25 flights -- even some videos at MY club with the same instructors I'm flying with now!

OTOH, a whole lot of people do seem to agree that the Grob 103 is just harder to learn to fly. The rudder is way stiff, and I'm still getting a handle on that. (I did get to fly our Grob 103 Acro last week, which I thought handled rather easier.) I'm just getting the knack of staying behind the tow plane, whereas 40 years ago I was wake-boxing by flight #3. (Yes, I still have my old log book!)

I still remember a fair amount from 40 years ago, but as for the "muscle-memory" for flying, I feel I'm starting from scratch -- probably for the better, as the Grob handles so differently from the 2-33.

My longer-term fantasies are
1. Fly our 1-26, which I came so close to flying way back then;
2. Fly a 2-32, in which I had my first glider ride as a teen-ager at Dillingham, Oahu, Hawaii. (There's one at nearby Hollister; also Williams and Crazy Creek);
3. Fly the ASK-21, of which I've only heard and read good things (Hollister and Williams have them);
4. Maybe even try getting into glider aerobatics, the better to feed my growing adrenaline junkie addiction!

-- J. J.
=============================

October 20th 16, 02:37 AM

Bruce Hoult

October 20th 16, 03:44 AM

On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 3:43:08 AM UTC+3, JJJ wrote:
> Bruce Hoult;930688 Wrote:
> > What are you training in now? The same 2-33?
>
> son_of_flubber;930692 Wrote:
> > I've heard that soloing at an early age makes it easier to take up the
> > sport later in life. It will be interesting to hear how that works out
> > for you.
>
> 40 years ago, I flew at Sky Sailing, Fremont. That operation is long
> gone from Fremont, now operating out of 'Warner Springs'
> (https://www.skysailing.com/) in SoCal. I was -this close- ---||--- to
> graduating to the SGS 1-26.
>
> I'm training in Grob G-103a's now. I'm finding it a harder plane to fly
> than I remember the 2-33's being. I'm wondering if that's really true
> or if it's just me. I see evidence that it's BOTH.

I've never been in a 2-33, but when my club moved from training in the 1955-era Blanik L-13 (which is a good bit higher performance than the 2-33) to the Grob 103 Twin Astir we saw the average time to solo for young people go from maybe 35 flights to 40 flights. So it's maybe a little bit harder. But mostly it's just different.

On the other hand, the "conversion to high performance glass" step later on goes from maybe 10 flights (landings, really) to a big fat zero.

When we changed from training the the Grobs to training in brand new DG1000-18 about a dozen years later I don't think we saw any difference in flights to solo at all.

Note that different organisations treat getting to solo differently. We expect people to be able to soar immediately upon getting solo, and most people have a number of flights in the middle of their training where it's too windy and/or thermally for the student to practice landings or even aerotow and the instructor says "let's go soaring for an hour or two!" and a cross-country flight ensues.

JJJ

October 20th 16, 04:41 PM

Triple J
Everything is a little different to fly, and having no currency does not help. With a lot of recent flying time these differences are humorous not frustrating.
Hang in there, the Grobs will feel right to you soon.
Jim

I've never been in a 2-33, but when my club moved from training in the 1955-era Blanik L-13 (which is a good bit higher performance than the 2-33) to the Grob 103 Twin Astir we saw the average time to solo for young people go from maybe 35 flights to 40 flights. So it's maybe a little bit harder. But mostly it's just different.

[ . . . ]

Note that different organisations treat getting to solo differently. We expect people to be able to soar immediately upon getting solo, and most people have a number of flights in the middle of their training where it's too windy and/or thermally for the student to practice landings or even aerotow and the instructor says "let's go soaring for an hour or two!" and a cross-country flight ensues.

Thank y'all for taking the time to talk to this n00b! I'm at about 20 high-tows now since mid-August plus a few patterns. Yes, I was getting a bit frustrated especially being totally out-of-control on tow for too long, but I've pretty much got a handle on that now. (A typical lesson consists of two high-tows and maybe a pattern as well.)

My club offers in-flight instruction but essentially no ground school beyond the debriefings with the instructor after each flight. We're expected to do the ground studying on our own somehow. For the time being, I'm reading stuff I find on-line (of which there is plenty) rather than buying books, but it's rather ad-hoc. We fly with whatever instructor is flying that day -- opinions may vary as to whether that's a good idea. This gives the student a variety of views from different instructors, which is a + but I think it also slows things down because they don't coordinate with each other as to where each student is at, so the in-flight training has a bit of ad-hoc quality too.

(@JS, I wanted my user-name to be just JJ but the platform I'm using, vBulletin, doesn't allow two-letter names.)

JJJ

October 20th 16, 05:03 PM

BTW, for whom it may interest, here are two beautiful videos of flights over the Bay Area, San Francisco all the way to Point Reyes, done a few years ago by Ramy, one of our members --

Low altitude, under 4000 ft -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggv5kkjqHrI
High alt, 15K-18K ft -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDdnfIANUxU

(For more like these, search for videos posted by "ramyyanetz")

Here, his blogs of those flights, with great photos, OLC traces, etc. (click any photo to enlarge) --
http://yanetz.blogspot.com/2011/05/my-22611-bay-tour-soaring-flight-with.html
http://yanetz.blogspot.com/2012/01/bay-tour-sequel.html
http://www.valleysoaring.net/?page_id=314

Paul Agnew

October 20th 16, 08:17 PM

JJJ

October 21st 16, 03:57 AM

Hi JJ!

You can download the latest version of the Glider Flying Handbook for free. (Google it.) There are some who will argue that it's not 100% accurate (it isn't), but nobody will disagree that it's a great resource for students to start working on their knowledge about soaring.

Paul Agnew
Jupiter, FL

Hello! Indeed, I've collected a whole folder full of downloaded docs, including that one, and the FAA Private Pilot's Handbook (which the Glider book refers to extensively); also the whole of Parts 61 and 91; and the FAA Aeronautical Chart Users Guide (80-some pages!) that explains all the symbols and notations on charts; AC-90-48D on Collision Avoidance; a 32-page (!) Wing Runner Training doc from FTSC (Flight Training and Safety Committee of the Soaring Association of Canada); some very detailed training syllabuses from several soaring clubs and schools; even a glider aerobatics training manual from Skyline Soaring, and much more.

That's just a sample of the stuff I've downloaded. I also have a page full of bookmarks in my browser pointing to other on-line stuff -- the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) full text; the full FAA Aviation Weather Guide (includes a full chapter focused on weather for soaring); Jim Burch's Study Soaring guide and Top Ten Ways to Fail A Practical Test; links to several soaring clubs and FBO's web pages of interest; much other stuff to read too. I spend my weekends at the airport, and on weekdays in between I have my reading cut out for me!

I mentioned earlier that it took me a longer time that I thought it should to be able to handle the G-103 while on tow. To that end, I found a bunch of articles full of advice on how to fly the tow. In fact, searching on-line for that is what led me to THIS message board -- I came across that 9-page thread from a year or two ago on the subject of tow pilots ignoring steering signals, which led to a debate (which I was already aware of) as to just what the correct steering signals are.
http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=212645
I read that whole thread hoping to find an unambiguous resolution, but I'm not sure that happened.

I'm going to study that FAA Weather manual extra thoroughly. The local DPE who does exams for much of California (look in the Soaring Milestones pages of SSA Soaring Magazine each month; his name is all over the place there) is a known meteorologist, and it's said he asks LOTS of weather questions!

-- J. J.
===============================

JJJ

October 21st 16, 04:29 AM

JJJ

October 21st 16, 04:56 AM

My two posts above lead me to another question I'd like to ask of you more experienced folks --

Can anyone point me to any on-line resources where I can find a good discussion and explanation of the FAR's that are relevant for glider pilots? I have the full text of Parts 61 and 91, which are full of stuff that doesn't much apply to us, besides being nigh incomprehensible. There ought to be some textbook-style write-up of this good for studying.

Here's one page I found that seems to be the sort of thing I'm looking for -- although I might be looking for something more extensive, but along these lines.
http://studysoaring.stlsoar.org/regs.htm

(I've seen a few other discussions kicking around here and there on aviation stackexchange too, but those are piecemeal of course. Like, for instance, that apparently well-known discussion of the privileges, and limitations, of having a Commercial rating.)

-- J. J.
======================

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

October 21st 16, 05:51 AM

JJJ wrote on 10/20/2016 8:41 AM:

>
> (@JS, I wanted my user-name to be just JJ but the platform I'm using,
> vBulletin, doesn't allow two-letter names.)

There is another JJ in the sport, so maybe JJJ is good choice ;^)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

Frank Whiteley

October 21st 16, 06:04 AM

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 6:43:08 AM UTC-6, JJJ wrote:
> Hello, all. I just discovered this site a few hours ago, spent a few
> hours poking around here, and joined right up. Permit me to introduce
> myself, if I may.
>
> I took sailplane lessons 40 years ago at Sky Sailing, Fremont, to the
> point of getting about 4 solo hours in a 2-33, but other things happened
> in life, and I got away from it. Of all the stupid choices I've made in
> life, I then spent 40 years kicking myself in the butt over that one.
> Now at a ripe old age, I've decided to dive right back into it (about 2
> months ago), essentially starting over as if a near--ab-initio- beginner
> (almost). In my newly re-incarnated experience, I have about 8 hours
> dual instruction by now. Hey, I can almost keep a glider behind a tow
> plane already! :) (ETA: That wasn't true just two weeks ago!)
>
> Poking around this site just in the last couple hours, I already notice
> two user names who appear to be people I know! (Hi, *Buzz*! Hi,
> *Ramy*!)
>
> As a novice (effectively) student pilot, I expect I'll probably do a lot
> more reading than writing on this forum for the near foreseeable future.
> I'll contribute more later, perhaps, once, y'know, I actually know
> something.
> -- J.J.
> ===================================
>
>
>
>
> --
> JJJ

http://www.gliderbooks.com/

http://academy.gliderbooks.com/courses/intro

Russell has been putting a lot of effort into this. Perhaps someone has taken his course and can comment.

Frank Whiteley

JJJ

October 21st 16, 09:40 AM

http://www.gliderbooks.com/

http://academy.gliderbooks.com/courses/intro

Russell has been putting a lot of effort into this. Perhaps someone has taken his course and can comment.

Frank Whiteley

I don't know anything about his on-line courses, other than that they exist. But I've certainly heard good recommendations, from many people, about the books. One of the FBO owners at Hollister told me these books contain EVERYTHING you need to know to pass the tests and much more. These are the textbooks they use for their students.

-- J. J.
================

[email protected]

October 21st 16, 02:13 PM

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 8:43:08 PM UTC-4, JJJ wrote:
> Bruce Hoult;930688 Wrote:
> > What are you training in now? The same 2-33?
>
> son_of_flubber;930692 Wrote:
> > I've heard that soloing at an early age makes it easier to take up the
> > sport later in life. It will be interesting to hear how that works out
> > for you.
>
> 40 years ago, I flew at Sky Sailing, Fremont. That operation is long
> gone from Fremont, now operating out of 'Warner Springs'
> (https://www.skysailing.com/) in SoCal. I was -this close- ---||--- to
> graduating to the SGS 1-26.
>
> I'm training in Grob G-103a's now. I'm finding it a harder plane to fly
> than I remember the 2-33's being. I'm wondering if that's really true
> or if it's just me. I see evidence that it's BOTH. On the one hand,
> I'm 40 years older now, which is known to induce geriatric drag on one's
> proficiency acquisition velocity. AND I see training videos on U-tube
> showing students on their 1st, 2nd, 3rd lessons seemingly doing better
> that I am after approx. 8 hours and 25 flights -- even some videos at MY
> club with the same instructors I'm flying with now!
>
> OTOH, a whole lot of people do seem to agree that the Grob 103 is just
> harder to learn to fly. The rudder is way stiff, and I'm still getting
> a handle on that. (I did get to fly our Grob 103 Acro last week, which
> I thought handled rather easier.) I'm just getting the knack of staying
> behind the tow plane, whereas 40 years ago I was wake-boxing by flight
> #3. (Yes, I still have my old log book!)
>
> I still remember a fair amount from 40 years ago, but as for the
> "muscle-memory" for flying, I feel I'm starting from scratch -- probably
> for the better, as the Grob handles so differently from the 2-33.
>
> My longer-term fantasies are
> 1. Fly our 1-26, which I came so close to flying way back then;
> 2. Fly a 2-32, in which I had my first glider ride as a teen-ager at
> Dillingham, Oahu, Hawaii. (There's one at nearby Hollister; also
> Williams and Crazy Creek);
> 3. Fly the ASK-21, of which I've only heard and read good things
> (Hollister and Williams have them);
> 4. Maybe even try getting into glider aerobatics, the better to feed my
> growing adrenaline junkie addiction!
>
> -- J. J.
> =============================
>
>
>
>
> --
> JJJ

First- welcome back. I see a lot of lapsed pilots returning. It is a vast untapped market for our sport.
Second- Try not to be too wrapped up in how fast you progress. Example- If you are not doing air work with good results like consistent roll rates and bank angles with good coordination, you are not likely to fly tow well.
There can be a tendency to try to do everything right away to try to speed up progress, and maybe save time an/or money. Very commonly this results in negative progress. You can't possibly try to master all aspects on each flight because there is too much to absorb.
Third- Try harder! That is a sure way to slow your progress. Just relax and enjoy and don't compare to 40 years ago. You probably were not as good as you thought then.
It will come- have fun!
UH

JJJ

October 22nd 16, 01:52 AM

First- welcome back. I see a lot of lapsed pilots returning. It is a vast untapped market for our sport.
Second- Try not to be too wrapped up in how fast you progress. Example- If you are not doing air work with good results like consistent roll rates and bank angles with good coordination, you are not likely to fly tow well.
There can be a tendency to try to do everything right away to try to speed up progress, and maybe save time an/or money. Very commonly this results in negative progress. You can't possibly try to master all aspects on each flight because there is too much to absorb.
Third- Try harder! That is a sure way to slow your progress. Just relax and enjoy and don't compare to 40 years ago. You probably were not as good as you thought then.
It will come- have fun!
UH

Yes, fersure, in the two months I've been at it (flying nearly every Saturday and Sunday mostly) everything is going substantially just as you say. True, I'm a bit concerned about costs (as I'm living on a tight budget). It is going slower than I expect, but hey, I'm having fun like you say and I'm in no big hurry. One of these days I'll get around to applying for my student cert. I'm not likely to be ready to solo for a while. (When I do, they damn well better cut the back of my shirt off! We didn't do that when I soloed at Fremont 40 years ago.)

Yeah, I was getting a little frustrated with tow flying, but just recently I've begun to get the hang of it so I'm not all over the sky any more, and I think I'm on the verge of getting the knack of doing medium-bank turns well.

One of my four instructors is really good at pushing my skill and comfort-zone envelopes just about right, and I really like that. He's the only one having me do stalls (straight and turning) and slow MCA flight so far, and lately he's pushing me into doing steeper turns.

The other three I think are moving me forward a little too slowly. One of them, though, is focusing a bit more on landing, which I can't really do well yet. A typical lesson on one day consists of two high-tows and maybe a pattern.

We have a young kid here (well, he's actually a senior at Stanford now) who's been flying here since he was 14, who just got his commercial a couple weeks ago. (He's also ASEL IFR rated too.) I felt honored to be his ground crew for his exam (mainly because I showed up). This kid is SHARP. The day he gets his CFI-G (and I assume he will), I'll be first in line to be his student. In the meantime, he takes me flying with him sometimes if I pay for the tow. Good deal! It's like a flying lesson in effect, even if I can't log it. (Golly, I hope he isn't reading this!)

Meanwhile, I spend the weekdays reading all that on-line stuff I mentioned above, and watching glider videos on YouTube, in between the time I spend following all the (ahem) election entertainment. Once the election is over, I guess, it'll be All Gliders All The Time. :)

-- J. J.
======================

[email protected]

October 24th 16, 01:43 AM

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 8:43:08 AM UTC-4, JJJ wrote:
> Hello, all. I just discovered this site a few hours ago, spent a few
> hours poking around here, and joined right up. Permit me to introduce
> myself, if I may.
>
> I took sailplane lessons 40 years ago at Sky Sailing, Fremont, to the
> point of getting about 4 solo hours in a 2-33, but other things happened
> in life, and I got away from it. Of all the stupid choices I've made in
> life, I then spent 40 years kicking myself in the butt over that one.
> Now at a ripe old age, I've decided to dive right back into it (about 2
> months ago), essentially starting over as if a near--ab-initio- beginner
> (almost). In my newly re-incarnated experience, I have about 8 hours
> dual instruction by now. Hey, I can almost keep a glider behind a tow
> plane already! :) (ETA: That wasn't true just two weeks ago!)
>
> Poking around this site just in the last couple hours, I already notice
> two user names who appear to be people I know! (Hi, *Buzz*! Hi,
> *Ramy*!)
>
> As a novice (effectively) student pilot, I expect I'll probably do a lot
> more reading than writing on this forum for the near foreseeable future.
> I'll contribute more later, perhaps, once, y'know, I actually know
> something.
> -- J.J.
> ===================================
>
>
>
>
> --
> JJJ

JJJ

Welcome back to soaring.

You may want to consider using computer-based glider flight simulation (a.k.a. Condor) to augment your training.

I would be happy to help you get started.

You can contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com

Cheers, SRM

JJJ

October 25th 16, 09:03 AM

JJJ

Welcome back to soaring.

You may want to consider using computer-based glider flight simulation (a.k.a. Condor) to augment your training.

I would be happy to help you get started.

You can contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com

Cheers, SRM

Okay, I spent a few minutes skimming your site. I imagine I'll take a more detailed look later. I also googled Condor and found some other stuff on it.

To be honest, I'm a bit skeptical about how much one could accomplish sitting at home flying a sim -- however, I say that having exactly ZERO experience trying it. And several of the student pilots in my club have suggested it to me too. But, for example, can any amount of sim spin training prepare one for real live spin training in a real live aircraft?

-- J. J.
=======================

Bruce Hoult

October 25th 16, 02:58 PM

On Tuesday, October 25, 2016 at 3:43:08 PM UTC+3, JJJ wrote:
> ;930909 Wrote:
> >
> > JJJ
> >
> > Welcome back to soaring.
> >
> > You may want to consider using computer-based glider flight simulation
> > (a.k.a. Condor) to augment your training.
> >
> > I would be happy to help you get started.
> >
> > You can contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com
> >
> > Cheers, SRM
>
> Okay, I spent a few minutes skimming your site. I imagine I'll take a
> more detailed look later. I also googled Condor and found some other
> stuff on it.
>
> To be honest, I'm a bit skeptical about how much one could accomplish
> sitting at home flying a sim -- however, I say that having exactly ZERO
> experience trying it. And several of the student pilots in my club have
> suggested it to me too. But, for example, can any amount of sim spin
> training prepare one for real live spin training in a real live
> aircraft?

Spins are one of the most aerodynamically complex situations to model and make realistic in an simulator. Condor maybe does a better job of it than many, but it's still not good.

I don't think that's what it's for.

Condor can definitely help aerotow and landing skills, including coping with cross-winds. Speed control, turns, use of the rudder. Finding and using thermals and ridge lift. Cross country flying and racing (including against other pilots online).

Minimum equipment is as large a screen as you have access to and a good joystick with twist control for rudder and sufficient buttons and/or levers for airbrakes, trim, quickly changing the direction of view. Optional: buttons for flaps/undercarriage. A lot of people (including me) use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (about $35)

At my club we have an old Cirrus cockpit with all the standard controls (stick, rudder, trim, airbrakes, tow release, undercarriage) connected to Condor, a small LCD display as the instrument panel, and a huge corporate surplus projection TV for the scenery.

We find skills practised in Condor transfer well to the real glider. An hour in Condor is not as useful as an hour in the real glider, but it's a lot cheaper! Flying Condor should be done in a reasonably serious manner, and (for early students) under supervision of someone at least solo-rated.

When time and manpower permit we put trail flight people in the simulator while they're waiting for the glider to be available. Then they have a much better idea about the controls and instruments than can be absorbed from a normal quick briefing before takeoff, and they perform much better in the air.

We find the ASW28 settings in Condor give quite realistic handling and performance that seems to match our DG1000-18 training gliders quite well.

Jonathan St. Cloud

October 25th 16, 03:07 PM

The simulator training is absolutely of value. Why do you think simulator training is mandatory for many aircraft. I had not flown a glider in 12-14 years before I got back into the sport,and had not flown for 7 years at all. Before I took a tow I did some condor training and it absolutely helped! First tow on condor felt like one of my first tows ever, had trouble maintaining position (and I have been trained in formation flying). Open your mind you will learn and have fun.

As for spin training never tried that in a sim, spins are easy though but important to be comfortable with.

On Tuesday, October 25, 2016 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, JJJ wrote:
> ;930909 Wrote:
> >
> > JJJ
> >
> > Welcome back to soaring.
> >
> > You may want to consider using computer-based glider flight simulation
> > (a.k.a. Condor) to augment your training.
> >
> > I would be happy to help you get started.
> >
> > You can contact me via my website: gliderCFI.com
> >
> > Cheers, SRM
>
> Okay, I spent a few minutes skimming your site. I imagine I'll take a
> more detailed look later. I also googled Condor and found some other
> stuff on it.
>
> To be honest, I'm a bit skeptical about how much one could accomplish
> sitting at home flying a sim -- however, I say that having exactly ZERO
> experience trying it. And several of the student pilots in my club have
> suggested it to me too. But, for example, can any amount of sim spin
> training prepare one for real live spin training in a real live
> aircraft?
>
> -- J. J.
> =======================
>
>
>
>
> --
> JJJ

JJJ

October 26th 16, 05:28 AM

Okay, thank you Scott, Bruce, and Jonathan for your encouraging remarks
about sims. I'll think more about that now. Can it simulate a Grob 103?

-- Minimum equipment is as large a screen as you have access to
-- and a good joystick with twist control for rudder and sufficient
-- buttons and/or levers for airbrakes, trim, quickly changing
-- the direction of view. Optional: buttons for flaps/undercarriage.
-- A lot of people (including me) use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (about $35)

I would definitely need a bit more investment. All I have are five
older PC's that I'm absolutely certain could not support any modern
graphics-intensive app. I'm sure I would insist on having real
rudder pedals. Okay, true confession: I did too play with a sim once,
about 15 years ago, for about 20 minutes, with twist control for the
rudder, and I absolutely didn't get it. I crashed every flight within
a minute or two because of that.

Does a decent set-up of joystick and pedals include realistic tactile
feed-back? It seems to me that would be essential in order to develop
any kind of "muscle memory". That's another reason for real pedals too.

-- At my club we have an old Cirrus cockpit with all the standard controls
-- (stick, rudder, trim, airbrakes, tow release, undercarriage) connected
-- to Condor, a small LCD display as the instrument panel, and a huge
-- corporate surplus projection TV for the scenery.

Now there's a thought! That sounds neat-o. My club has a Blanik L-13,
the only function of which anymore is to keep its trailer from blowing
away in the wind. I should suggest to TPTB that we look into getting
a set-up like this.

Are there really computer interfaces available to connect the real
controls of a real glider to a computer? Or was it a home-built job
by some electronics engineer in your club? (If the latter, well, we
probably have that talent in our club too. One of my instructors,
for example, is a retired physicist/programmer.) And can Condor
interface to all that?

-- The simulator training is absolutely of value. Why do you think
-- simulator training is mandatory for many aircraft. I had not flown
-- a glider in 12-14 years before I got back into the sport,and had
-- not flown for 7 years at all. Before I took a tow I did some condor
-- training and it absolutely helped! First tow on condor felt like one
-- of my first tows ever, had trouble maintaining position (and I have
-- been trained in formation flying). Open your mind you will learn and
-- have fun.
--
-- As for spin training never tried that in a sim, spins are easy
-- though but important to be comfortable with.

Doesn't professional sim training take place in a real simulated cockpit,
surrounded by all the mechanical machinery of a carnival ride? I've seen
those, but never flown one. Can a home-style sim do all that?

I'd still be skeptical about that. Can any home-style sim reproduce
the experience of seeing the firmament spinning around your head while
you sit in a real cockpit? (I only did one or two spin and recoveries,
and that was 40 years ago in the 2-33 -- I remember it being neither
difficult nor scary. But I also remember very explicitly how my
instructor's training technique caused that to be the case.) Or the
sensation of stalling or pushing over, or G's in a steep turn (let alone the
feeling of a steep uncoordinated turn), or the turbulence of wind gradient
on tow?

-- J. J.
================================

Bruce Hoult

October 26th 16, 10:28 AM

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 9:43:09 AM UTC+3, JJJ wrote:
> Okay, thank you Scott, Bruce, and Jonathan for your encouraging remarks
> about sims. I'll think more about that now. Can it simulate a Grob
> 103?
>
> -- Minimum equipment is as large a screen as you have access to
> -- and a good joystick with twist control for rudder and sufficient
> -- buttons and/or levers for airbrakes, trim, quickly changing
> -- the direction of view. Optional: buttons for flaps/undercarriage.
> -- A lot of people (including me) use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (about
> $35)
>
> I would definitely need a bit more investment. All I have are five
> older PC's that I'm absolutely certain could not support any modern
> graphics-intensive app.

Condor is actually pretty old at this point. Their site says you need a 1 GHz CPU, 256 MB RAM, 64 MB video card with DirectX 7.

Of course more is better :-)

> Does a decent set-up of joystick and pedals include realistic tactile
> feed-back? It seems to me that would be essential in order to develop
> any kind of "muscle memory". That's another reason for real pedals too.

I don't think that's important. Simple spring centering is enough. It's not like real glider controls give you steering wheel kick back from road bumps. Speed-sensitive spring force might be useful, but there are also plenty of gliders where the control forces don't change a lot (e.g. the flying tail types such as Cirrus, Janus). It doesn't hurt to be able to fly them without relying on control force as a cue.

> -- At my club we have an old Cirrus cockpit with all the standard
> controls
> -- (stick, rudder, trim, airbrakes, tow release, undercarriage)
> connected
> -- to Condor, a small LCD display as the instrument panel, and a huge
> -- corporate surplus projection TV for the scenery.
>
> Now there's a thought! That sounds neat-o. My club has a Blanik L-13,
> the only function of which anymore is to keep its trailer from blowing
> away in the wind. I should suggest to TPTB that we look into getting
> a set-up like this.
>
> Are there really computer interfaces available to connect the real
> controls of a real glider to a computer? Or was it a home-built job
> by some electronics engineer in your club? (If the latter, well, we
> probably have that talent in our club too. One of my instructors,
> for example, is a retired physicist/programmer.) And can Condor
> interface to all that?

All mature PC flight SIM programs (e.g. Condor, MS FS, XPLane) can interface to external controls and instruments. Usually via a serial ("COM") port, or simulated serial port over USB.

A $25 Arduino Uno has six analogue inputs (converts a voltage between 0 and 5V to a number from 0 - 1023) and a dozen digital inputs/outputs to read simple switches. It can talk to a connected PC by USB serial. It's easy to program, even for someone who has never dealt with microcontollers before. Just read the inputs and send to the PC in the correct format 10 or 20 times a second.

For me, the mechanical part is the hard part! Finding a way to connect linear or rotary potentiometers to the aircraft controls, and centering springs to give some feedback.

If you don't want to take the time to DIY, someone on this group is selling a ready-to-go setup, though without a real glider cockpit:

http://www.gliderbooks.com/training-sim.html

Bruce Hoult

October 26th 16, 01:13 PM

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 9:43:09 AM UTC+3, JJJ wrote:
> Okay, thank you Scott, Bruce, and Jonathan for your encouraging remarks
> about sims. I'll think more about that now. Can it simulate a Grob
> 103?

Just noticed this.

No, there's no Grob 103 model. Not really important. The handling feel is more important than the exact performance, and any neutral-ish standard class glider will be near enough e.g. the ASW28 in the included aircraft.

Plane Pack 1 (EUR 10) includes a PW5 which handles nicely and is only a little worse performing than a Grob 103. I sometimes fly it in the online races and do ok because of the handicap :-) PW5s mostly only do slow and short flights because mostly only bad pilots fly them ... it was quite a revelation when one of NZs top std class pilots entered a PW5 competition...

Plane Pack 2 (EUR 15) has a bunch of older "club class" gliders such as Libelle, ASW15, LS4 which are higher performance than the Grob but closer than the built in gliders.

If you want to really practise your rudder coordination then jump in the Nimbus 4 or ASW22!!

Frank Whiteley

October 29th 16, 11:51 PM

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 12:43:09 AM UTC-6, JJJ wrote:
> Okay, thank you Scott, Bruce, and Jonathan for your encouraging remarks
> about sims. I'll think more about that now. Can it simulate a Grob
> 103?
>
> -- Minimum equipment is as large a screen as you have access to
> -- and a good joystick with twist control for rudder and sufficient
> -- buttons and/or levers for airbrakes, trim, quickly changing
> -- the direction of view. Optional: buttons for flaps/undercarriage.
> -- A lot of people (including me) use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro (about
> $35)
>
> I would definitely need a bit more investment. All I have are five
> older PC's that I'm absolutely certain could not support any modern
> graphics-intensive app. I'm sure I would insist on having real
> rudder pedals. Okay, true confession: I did too play with a sim once,
> about 15 years ago, for about 20 minutes, with twist control for the
> rudder, and I absolutely didn't get it. I crashed every flight within
> a minute or two because of that.
>
> Does a decent set-up of joystick and pedals include realistic tactile
> feed-back? It seems to me that would be essential in order to develop
> any kind of "muscle memory". That's another reason for real pedals too.
>
>
> -- At my club we have an old Cirrus cockpit with all the standard
> controls
> -- (stick, rudder, trim, airbrakes, tow release, undercarriage)
> connected
> -- to Condor, a small LCD display as the instrument panel, and a huge
> -- corporate surplus projection TV for the scenery.
>
> Now there's a thought! That sounds neat-o. My club has a Blanik L-13,
> the only function of which anymore is to keep its trailer from blowing
> away in the wind. I should suggest to TPTB that we look into getting
> a set-up like this.
>
> Are there really computer interfaces available to connect the real
> controls of a real glider to a computer? Or was it a home-built job
> by some electronics engineer in your club? (If the latter, well, we
> probably have that talent in our club too. One of my instructors,
> for example, is a retired physicist/programmer.) And can Condor
> interface to all that?
>
> -- The simulator training is absolutely of value. Why do you think
> -- simulator training is mandatory for many aircraft. I had not flown
> -- a glider in 12-14 years before I got back into the sport,and had
> -- not flown for 7 years at all. Before I took a tow I did some condor
> -- training and it absolutely helped! First tow on condor felt like one
> -- of my first tows ever, had trouble maintaining position (and I have
> -- been trained in formation flying). Open your mind you will learn and
> -- have fun.
> --
> -- As for spin training never tried that in a sim, spins are easy
> -- though but important to be comfortable with.
>
> Doesn't professional sim training take place in a real simulated
> cockpit,
> surrounded by all the mechanical machinery of a carnival ride? I've
> seen
> those, but never flown one. Can a home-style sim do all that?
>
> I'd still be skeptical about that. Can any home-style sim reproduce
> the experience of seeing the firmament spinning around your head while
> you sit in a real cockpit? (I only did one or two spin and recoveries,
> and that was 40 years ago in the 2-33 -- I remember it being neither
> difficult nor scary. But I also remember very explicitly how my
> instructor's training technique caused that to be the case.) Or the
> sensation of stalling or pushing over, or G's in a steep turn (let alone
> the
> feeling of a steep uncoordinated turn), or the turbulence of wind
> gradient
> on tow?
>
> -- J. J.
> ================================
>
>
>
>
> --
> JJJ

At the United Training Center in Denver, most sims were static cockpits. It's an eyeball exercise. The big moving monsters ran about $2500/hour several years ago. I was privileged to fly the 777 sim successfully from takeoff to landing though the instructor had to point out the thrust reversers. Landing 50ft in the air is a tad different also.

Frank Whiteley