SSA as sub chapter of AOPA

[[email protected]]

This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

[Sean[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:42:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

Excellent idea John.

We need new, out of the SSA box thinking. BIG TIME. A RIGHT QUICK!

[[email protected]]

Feb 19, 2016

EAA, SOARING SOCIETY OF AMERICA ANNOUNCE JOINT EFFORT TO BOOST AVIATION PARTICIPATION

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/about-eaa/eaa-media-room/eaa-news-releases/2016-02-19-eaa-soaring-society-of-america-announce-joint-effort-to-boost-aviation-participation

[[email protected]]

No. Bad idea. AOPA serves power pilots, and rather wealthy ones(yes even compared to us.) They'd take our money and representation and throw us under the bus every chance they could. They certainly wouldn't be interested in getting all the things SSA has gotten(no medicals, no data plates, assembly without a mechanic signoff, etc) unless they could get them for all pilots.
I loathe most organizations but will admit the SSA has done a fantastic job keeping the government creeps away from us. That is the result of a tiny group of smart, soaring obsessed folks. Throwing in with the submarine drivers and we lose that. Go join AOPA if you want, but merging SSA would be killing SSA and soaring representation.
PS most power pilots are not potential soaring pilots, sure they can do an add on in a week. Then never use it again. But most power pilots do not posses the personality of the folks that become active, driven soaring pilots. Those are the people soaring needs.
On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:42:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

[[email protected]]

Wouldn't EAA be a better fit?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:42:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

SSA currently has active and productive relationships with AOPA, EAA,and CAP that are good for all. EAA and CAP relationships are both working working on youth flying.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

Very nicely put, Gregg.

Just think, if SSA were part of AOPA, we'd immediately become inundated
with pleas for more money. Hardly a week goes by that I don't get some
form of urgent, breathless call for another donation from AOPA.

On 10/27/2016 5:01 AM, wrote:
> No. Bad idea. AOPA serves power pilots, and rather wealthy ones(yes even compared to us.) They'd take our money and representation and throw us under the bus every chance they could. They certainly wouldn't be interested in getting all the things SSA has gotten(no medicals, no data plates, assembly without a mechanic signoff, etc) unless they could get them for all pilots.
> I loathe most organizations but will admit the SSA has done a fantastic job keeping the government creeps away from us. That is the result of a tiny group of smart, soaring obsessed folks. Throwing in with the submarine drivers and we lose that. Go join AOPA if you want, but merging SSA would be killing SSA and soaring representation.
> PS most power pilots are not potential soaring pilots, sure they can do an add on in a week. Then never use it again. But most power pilots do not posses the personality of the folks that become active, driven soaring pilots. Those are the people soaring needs.
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 11:42:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

--
Dan, 5J

[N97MT]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 10:42:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA), a larger audience of potential new soaring pilots could be reached. For example, take a look at European flying monthly magazines. There is a section of each magazine devoted to soaring pilots. I'm thinking that if we had some official role within a larger general aviation organization, we would gain exposure to growth of our sport by having our news and articles published within the general aviation publications. Currently, our gliding organization could be termed "isolationist". Talking about growing our sport through our gliding publication is like "preaching to the choir". Integrating with a much larger general aviation community and having access to its publications would create tremendous exposure. I really think it's time for a change

AOPA, EAA and CAP are heavily weighted towards powered flying. I am a member of SSA, AOPA and EAA. I also work on a weekly basis with CAP members. I agree that most powered pilots who do the add-on do not pursue the soaring passions. It is just another bucket list item for them. Not that this is negative, since it will make them better pilots. But it is not a direct contributor to growth in soaring.

But back to the premise. In many foreign countries, aviation sports are represented by a more uniform, centralized, national aviation organization. One size fits all. In the past (I don't know if this is the case today), aviation sports were subsidized to some degree by the government. This is not the case in the US.

When you look at the differences, yes AOPA and EAA have slicker marketing organizations. But these are not being powered solely by members. There are large industrial (mainly US aviation industry) forces behind this capability. The US aviation industry sees it in their interest to maintain and expand that GA segment of their business and use AOPA and EAA as marketing platforms. These organizations (AOPA and EAA) are dependent on this financial support from industry. A powered aircraft industry.

I certainly did not get a shock, for example, when the new student pilot NPRM came out and AOPA said nothing about the problem of 14 year old birthday solos until I mentioned it to them. And just watching how AOPA was reporting this is telling. At one point they only referred to it in the context of 16 year old first solos for airplanes, not 14 year olds for gliders. The airplane students had a work-around, namely claim they were working on the solo for gliders and then solo in the airplane in the 16th birthday. I even got a written response from AOPA about how the majority of their members are powered pilots and yes, bless my heart, glider pilots are important too.

CAP is to my knowledge the only US civil aviation organization directly subsidized by the government. Your tax dollars at work. They do a lot to get youth into aviation. Gliding is one component of that. In my experience most cadets do some gliding but if they pursue aviation further most prefer powered flying first. The minority stick with gliding. The SSA/CAP relationship is a good start there. More could be done to influence the culture of the CAP to prioritize gliding for youth (like earn badges before going on to powered flight) and a better choice of gliding equipment to raise the cool factor.

The moneyed interests at AOPA and EAA are not in tune with the US soaring community. As well, AOPA and EAA are not national aero clubs. There would have to be considerable change to those organizations before any direct merger could work for the benefit of the US soaring community.

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

snips
>The moneyed interests at AOPA and EAA are not in tune with the US soaring
>community. As well, AOPA and EAA are not national aero clubs. There would
>have to be considerable change to those organizations before any direct
>merger could work for the benefit of the US soaring community.

During our struggle to save a 40-year soaring site in Southern Ca. I
mistakenly assumed that decades of being an AOPA member would finally be of
more use than just a discount on insurance. Unfortunately, we quickly came
to the realization that AOPA was not the least bit interested in investing
any resources or political clout in our struggle with the state Caltrans
department. The final straw was when a member of our group got a
communication from an AOPA official informing him that while AOPA would
help if it could. But that AOPA's name was not to be mentioned in any of
our correspondences. That insult was enough for me to permanently drop my
AOPA membership. If at some point SSA chooses to merge with AOPA, I doubt
I will be the only glider pilot who will choose to drops their SSA
membership.

The reality is that most airplane pilots are quite satisfied with just
safely getting from point A to point B or just back to point A. It's a
different type of pilot who enjoys the challenge and personal satisfaction
of having their time aloft, height gained and distance flown, being based
on their skills at using mother nature as their primary source of power.

During 25 years of running a glider operation. We made it a point to
assure that all our tow pilots also got glider ratings and in exchange for
towing duties they had gliders available to fly. Interestingly seldom did
these dual rated pilots show much interest in flying gliders.

ME

[Dan Marotta]

Soarin Again, shadowlift, ME... Who are you?

I agree with what you say and am about to drop my AOPA membership (I
only had it for the insurance discount), but it would be nice to call
you Bob, or Sam, or Julie.

Dan (as in my sign on name)

On 10/28/2016 12:39 AM, Soarin Again wrote:
> snips
>> The moneyed interests at AOPA and EAA are not in tune with the US soaring
>> community. As well, AOPA and EAA are not national aero clubs. There would
>> have to be considerable change to those organizations before any direct
>> merger could work for the benefit of the US soaring community.
> During our struggle to save a 40-year soaring site in Southern Ca. I
> mistakenly assumed that decades of being an AOPA member would finally be of
> more use than just a discount on insurance. Unfortunately, we quickly came
> to the realization that AOPA was not the least bit interested in investing
> any resources or political clout in our struggle with the state Caltrans
> department. The final straw was when a member of our group got a
> communication from an AOPA official informing him that while AOPA would
> help if it could. But that AOPA's name was not to be mentioned in any of
> our correspondences. That insult was enough for me to permanently drop my
> AOPA membership. If at some point SSA chooses to merge with AOPA, I doubt
> I will be the only glider pilot who will choose to drops their SSA
> membership.
>
> The reality is that most airplane pilots are quite satisfied with just
> safely getting from point A to point B or just back to point A. It's a
> different type of pilot who enjoys the challenge and personal satisfaction
> of having their time aloft, height gained and distance flown, being based
> on their skills at using mother nature as their primary source of power.
>
> During 25 years of running a glider operation. We made it a point to
> assure that all our tow pilots also got glider ratings and in exchange for
> towing duties they had gliders available to fly. Interestingly seldom did
> these dual rated pilots show much interest in flying gliders.
>
> ME
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I'm sorta torn here.

Been an AOPA member for more than 20 years, mostly because of lawyer backup as a " commercial/instructor" person in gliders/sailplanes and hoping to not need it.

I agree that AOPA sorta looks down on us but believe it helps me (actually, they're helping me with an issue now..).

Any voice is better than no voice, at least in the US.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 9:42:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> This topic has been discussed before but should be revisited. If the gliding community was brought within the umbrella organization of private pilots (ie., AOPA),.............

Horrible idea. Arguably one of the worst ideas to come up on RAS in quite some time. A problem, Perhaps THE problem is that Non-Profits have become big business and AOPA is no exception. From multi million dollar salaries (And severance packages) to tie ins with all manner of consumer goods and services many of these companies are centered around revenue and the little guy member looses. Except of course if you consider a mail box full of junk mail soliciting everything from time shares to Wine of the month a tangible benefit.
Years ago we had a complex airspace issue with the FAA in my area. SSA was helpful, AOPA was not.
There is nothing that AOPA provides that you can not get elsewhere.

[Bill Polits]

Always blows me away there is 0 coverage about soaring in mainstream aviation publishing except for, "get your glider add-on, it'll make you a better pilot" when as we all know at the root of all this aviation stuff is gliding/soaring. Thing is, there's little money in it and few to none who're willing to spend money to advertise. So the mainstream press and their organizations (AOPA) won't touch it.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Oh, you mean hang gliders, no!? Oh, those sperm thingys. That has been the conversation I have had with 98% of the power pilots. I fly power too but, mainly I fly, and I would rather not have an engine up front.

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 11:53:54 AM UTC-7, Bill Polits wrote:
> Always blows me away there is 0 coverage about soaring in mainstream aviation publishing except for, "get your glider add-on, it'll make you a better pilot" when as we all know at the root of all this aviation stuff is gliding/soaring. Thing is, there's little money in it and few to none who're willing to spend money to advertise. So the mainstream press and their organizations (AOPA) won't touch it.

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/1/2016 6:43 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> <snip> ...and I would rather not have an engine up front.
>
>
Get a Stemme - the engine's in back!

But seriously, I've been able to fly on many more days than I could have
before getting the self-launcher. Moriarty sits pretty much in the
center of a valley and often times we have blue skies for 10 miles
around with wonderful clouds just out of reach with an air tow. There
have been occasions where I ran the engine an extra 5 minutes to gain
the extra altitude and distance from the airport where I could either
get up and away or return safely. I never imagined the usability before
I had it.
--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

I happen to be teaching gliding to one of the VP’s at the EAA (an old college friend) and his 13 year old son. They both plan to solo on his son’s 14th birthday next May. I know the EAA was a big part of pushing for the changes to allow a 14 year old to solo on their birthday. They are the ones that wrote the petition that pushed the FAA to change the policy.

Maybe the question should be:
How do we turn EAA, AOPA and FAA employees, who make the decisions that shape our sport,(or their kids) into gliding enthusiast?

This way we do not have to worry so much as to whether they are looking out for us or not. Since many pilots in European countries typically start out flying gliders this may explain why they are already very well integrated with the power flying pilots, as was pointed out in the original post.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 2:51:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I happen to be teaching gliding to one of the VP’s at the EAA (an old college friend) and his 13 year old son. They both plan to solo on his son’s 14th birthday next May. I know the EAA was a big part of pushing for the changes to allow a 14 year old to solo on their birthday. They are the ones that wrote the petition that pushed the FAA to change the policy.
>
> Maybe the question should be:
> How do we turn EAA, AOPA and FAA employees, who make the decisions that shape our sport,(or their kids) into gliding enthusiast?
>
> This way we do not have to worry so much as to whether they are looking out for us or not. Since many pilots in European countries typically start out flying gliders this may explain why they are already very well integrated with the power flying pilots, as was pointed out in the original post.

You make a very good point. I also think the SSA should work more closely with AOPA going forward as it is with EAA.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 9:06:06 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 2:51:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I happen to be teaching gliding to one of the VP’s at the EAA (an old college friend) and his 13 year old son. They both plan to solo on his son’s 14th birthday next May. I know the EAA was a big part of pushing for the changes to allow a 14 year old to solo on their birthday. They are the ones that wrote the petition that pushed the FAA to change the policy.
> >
> > Maybe the question should be:
> > How do we turn EAA, AOPA and FAA employees, who make the decisions that shape our sport,(or their kids) into gliding enthusiast?
> >
> > This way we do not have to worry so much as to whether they are looking out for us or not. Since many pilots in European countries typically start out flying gliders this may explain why they are already very well integrated with the power flying pilots, as was pointed out in the original post.
>
> You make a very good point. I also think the SSA should work more closely with AOPA going forward as it is with EAA.

There are some new initiatives in progress with the EAA. Jack Pelton was working on his glider rating when he was made chair of EAA. He's been so busy that I'm not sure he's had time to finish.

Frank Whiteley