Flarm Net

[Dan Marotta]

Can anyone tell me if Flarm Net information is displayed on a Power
Flarm portable directly? Reading the PF Portable manual implies that
the ID information is displayed only on external devices, i.e.,
Butterfly, Flarm View, etc. I can't find any information that directly
states that the PF portable will display the information.
--
Dan, 5J

[Sean[_2_]]

Yes, I believe it is. It's been 3 years since I have used mine. It I do believe tail numbers can be programmed manually or automated with the addition of the FlarmNet file.

[Dan Marotta]

Maybe I have answered my own question: According to the Flarm Net
website the PowerFlarm is not listed as a supported device, but XCSoar
is listed. My Streak/XCSoar unit is interfaced with the PF portable and
my CNvXC vario. The Flarm logo is now displayed at the bottom of my
moving map so I suppose that if I ever come within range of another
Flarm equipped aircraft, I'll see it on my moving map.

Hey Renny, next time we're both at the airport, let's see if I can see
you on my display across the taxiway.

On 11/2/2016 8:44 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Can anyone tell me if Flarm Net information is displayed on a Power
> Flarm portable directly? Reading the PF Portable manual implies that
> the ID information is displayed only on external devices, i.e.,
> Butterfly, Flarm View, etc. I can't find any information that
> directly states that the PF portable will display the information.

--
Dan, 5J

[Surge]

On Wednesday, 2 November 2016 18:02:15 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hey Renny, next time we're both at the airport, let's see if I can see
> you on my display across the taxiway.

From my limited experience of FLARM that won't work because FLARM filters out stationary targets.
You can however have Renny flying nearby and spot it from your unit on the ground.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 10:59:17 AM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 November 2016 18:02:15 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Hey Renny, next time we're both at the airport, let's see if I can see
> > you on my display across the taxiway.
>
> From my limited experience of FLARM that won't work because FLARM filters out stationary targets.
> You can however have Renny flying nearby and spot it from your unit on the ground.

My experience is that you will see PowerFlarm targets on your display on the ground even if not moving, but you will not get Powerflarm collision warnings.
In a contest grid you will see gliders none of which are moving.


I also tested this with a close 3' drive by Powerflarm in auto and PowerFlarm in glider in parking place. Again Display showed target but no collision warning.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Morgan[_2_]]

The portable does not display contest IDs from a Flarmnet file. Would be nice if it did.

Morgan

[Dan Marotta]

The XCSoar manual says that XCSoar will display targets and their IDs.
I've just downloaded the file for my XCSoar device and will install it
next time I go to the airport. I'll have to wait for the weekend to
find another user to see if it works.

I did finally get a Flarm alert yesterday as well as a PCAS alert from
the same aircraft. That really clutters the screen. The other guy had
the same experience - Flarm and PCAS from me. We're trying to figure
out how to prevent that. Anybody got any information on that?

Dan

On 11/2/2016 4:07 PM, Morgan wrote:
> The portable does not display contest IDs from a Flarmnet file. Would be nice if it did.
>
> Morgan

--
Dan, 5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Morgan wrote on 11/2/2016 3:07 PM:
> The portable does not display contest IDs from a Flarmnet file. Would be nice if it did.

My Portable does, and I can select a target, click the button, and see
the info. The manual tells you how to do it: page 38 on the ver. 3.41
manual.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Dan Marotta]

Eric,

I just reviewed the manual/page you referenced and it looks to me like
the FlarmNet info is presented on the Butterfly display rather than the
PowerFlarm Portable display. Can you confirm one more time that you see
FlarmNet info, e.g., call sign on the Portable's built-in display or is
it on a connected display?

Thanks,
Dan

On 11/5/2016 5:33 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Morgan wrote on 11/2/2016 3:07 PM:
>> The portable does not display contest IDs from a Flarmnet file. Would
>> be nice if it did.
>
> My Portable does, and I can select a target, click the button, and see
> the info. The manual tells you how to do it: page 38 on the ver. 3.41
> manual.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Ramy[_2_]]

I suspect Eric refers to Flarm ID, not contest ID. Or is referring to external display. Otherwise I am also puzzled how he manage to get flarmnet data into a powerflarm portable.

Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks. I just got back from the airport (no flying today) and Renny
and I cranked up our portables, mine in my glider in the hangar and
Renny took his out of his glider and drove it around in his car. In all
cases I saw only the arrow on the PF portable display and I saw his ID
on my Streak (XCSoar) Flarm Radar display. Can't wait to try it in flight.

Dan

On 11/6/2016 9:31 AM, Ramy wrote:
> I suspect Eric refers to Flarm ID, not contest ID. Or is referring to external display. Otherwise I am also puzzled how he manage to get flarmnet data into a powerflarm portable.
>
> Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 1:40:13 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thanks. I just got back from the airport (no flying today) and Renny
> and I cranked up our portables, mine in my glider in the hangar and
> Renny took his out of his glider and drove it around in his car. In all
> cases I saw only the arrow on the PF portable display and I saw his ID
> on my Streak (XCSoar) Flarm Radar display. Can't wait to try it in flight.
>
> Dan
>
> On 11/6/2016 9:31 AM, Ramy wrote:
> > I suspect Eric refers to Flarm ID, not contest ID. Or is referring to external display. Otherwise I am also puzzled how he manage to get flarmnet data into a powerflarm portable.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Welcome to the dark side 5J. We're glad to have you!

9B

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/6/2016 7:28 AM:
> Eric,
>
> I just reviewed the manual/page you referenced and it looks to me like
> the FlarmNet info is presented on the Butterfly display rather than the
> PowerFlarm Portable display. Can you confirm one more time that you see
> FlarmNet info, e.g., call sign on the Portable's built-in display or is
> it on a connected display?

It's my understanding the display in the portable is a Butterfly
display, just like the one that comes with the Core, and that it's
updated the same way. I don't recall my portable in the Phoenix
operating any differently in flight than the Core in my other glider.

My portable is at the airport, so I can't check directly for a few days.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:04:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> It's my understanding the display in the portable is a Butterfly
> display, just like the one that comes with the Core.

No, it is not. That is completely wrong.
The portable display uses its own distinct display code,
running on a single processor with FLARM main processing.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dave Nadler wrote on 11/6/2016 5:09 PM:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:04:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> It's my understanding the display in the portable is a Butterfly
>> display, just like the one that comes with the Core.
>
> No, it is not. That is completely wrong.
> The portable display uses its own distinct display code,
> running on a single processor with FLARM main processing.

So you know that Flarmnet doesn't work on the portable?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Dan Marotta]

Well, it worked this way:

1. It belonged to George Applebay and had never been used, though Renny
kept the firmware up to date.
2. It was priced at less than 50% of retail.
3. In several flights, I've had only one Flarm contact and I had him
visually first.
4. I was already familiar with PCAS. But I think the PCAS display on
the PF portable can be misleading unless you understand how PCAS works.
One might be tempted to think that the target is at 3 o'clock rather
than anywhere around the circle drawn on the display.
5. I like receiving ADS-B targets though, for the most part, they're
displayed at +99. Still I think I've seen one that was only about +27
and that, added to my altitude told me that he was VFR and eastbound.
Or maybe that was a PCAS target.
6. I have Flarm targets displayed on my Streak/XCSoar. I just made
that happen during ground testing. I don't see anything in the manuals
to indicate that I'll see PCAS targets though that would be nice, too.
7. I've joined FlarmNet.
8. It'll probably be the spring before it gets any real use.
9. Since I've had only 1 Flarm contact, I submitted that igc file to
the performance analysis tool and it looked pretty good for over 300
deg. Kinda weak at 6 o'clock, though. I'll wait until I have better
data before cutting my antenna cables to length.

Thanks for the welcome.

On 11/6/2016 4:49 PM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 1:40:13 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Thanks. I just got back from the airport (no flying today) and Renny
>> and I cranked up our portables, mine in my glider in the hangar and
>> Renny took his out of his glider and drove it around in his car. In all
>> cases I saw only the arrow on the PF portable display and I saw his ID
>> on my Streak (XCSoar) Flarm Radar display. Can't wait to try it in flight.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On 11/6/2016 9:31 AM, Ramy wrote:
>>> I suspect Eric refers to Flarm ID, not contest ID. Or is referring to external display. Otherwise I am also puzzled how he manage to get flarmnet data into a powerflarm portable.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Welcome to the dark side 5J. We're glad to have you!
>
> 9B

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

My data set is small but my immediate opinion, based upon about 20
minutes of driving a car carrying a portable around the airport, is that
it doesn't display FlarmNet information on the portable's built-in
display. My portable's display showed the expected arrow head symbol
only. My Streak/XCSoar showed the symbol and "3R" which is Renny's call
sign. I could also see the 6-hex-character identifiers of the airliners
overhead.

On 11/6/2016 6:22 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dave Nadler wrote on 11/6/2016 5:09 PM:
>> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:04:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> It's my understanding the display in the portable is a Butterfly
>>> display, just like the one that comes with the Core.
>>
>> No, it is not. That is completely wrong.
>> The portable display uses its own distinct display code,
>> running on a single processor with FLARM main processing.
>
> So you know that Flarmnet doesn't work on the portable?
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:22:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> So you know that Flarmnet doesn't work on the portable?

Portable PowerFLARM displays *NO* identification info for targets.
Neither does PowerFLARM Core use FLARMnet.
FLARMnet info is used by display devices to map FLARM ID into other identification info.

FLARM provides BFN/BFW support for update of downstream Butterfly products.
For example, I can update the software and/or FLARMnet info in my
Butterfly displays by placing these files on a USB stick, plugging
into Core, and then powering on whilst holding down button on Butterfly.

[Craig Funston]

On Monday, November 7, 2016 at 9:03:34 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:22:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > So you know that Flarmnet doesn't work on the portable?
>
> Portable PowerFLARM displays *NO* identification info for targets.
> Neither does PowerFLARM Core use FLARMnet.
> FLARMnet info is used by display devices to map FLARM ID into other identification info.
>
> FLARM provides BFN/BFW support for update of downstream Butterfly products.
> For example, I can update the software and/or FLARMnet info in my
> Butterfly displays by placing these files on a USB stick, plugging
> into Core, and then powering on whilst holding down button on Butterfly.

Dan,

It took me a long time to realize that the PowerFLARM Core and the Butterfly Display are two SEPARATE computers that happen to talk to each other. The Butterfly display is the computer that takes the FLARMnet data and attaches it to the signals the Core sends to it. I kept trying to think of the display as a dumb screen for the core & that got in the way of understanding how to deal with them.

Dave's stated pretty categorically that the Portable doesn't attach FLARMnet data and if anyone would know, it's Dave. That seem logical since it's missing the additional processing provided by a butterfly display (computer)..

Glad to hear you've joined the FLARM tribe.

Cheers,
Craig

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks Craig,

I've got it all working. The PF portable is on top of the glare shield
and my Streak running XCSoar is on a stalk below the EFIS. The Streak
displays Flarm targets on the moving map as well as a Flarm radar
display which also displays FlarmNet ID. As soon as I get comfortable
with the Flarm stuff on the Streak, I'll move the portable to the right
side so my wife will have a display as well. Two sets of eyes are always
better than one.

Dan

On 11/8/2016 3:25 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Monday, November 7, 2016 at 9:03:34 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 8:22:56 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> So you know that Flarmnet doesn't work on the portable?
>> Portable PowerFLARM displays *NO* identification info for targets.
>> Neither does PowerFLARM Core use FLARMnet.
>> FLARMnet info is used by display devices to map FLARM ID into other identification info.
>>
>> FLARM provides BFN/BFW support for update of downstream Butterfly products.
>> For example, I can update the software and/or FLARMnet info in my
>> Butterfly displays by placing these files on a USB stick, plugging
>> into Core, and then powering on whilst holding down button on Butterfly.
> Dan,
>
> It took me a long time to realize that the PowerFLARM Core and the Butterfly Display are two SEPARATE computers that happen to talk to each other. The Butterfly display is the computer that takes the FLARMnet data and attaches it to the signals the Core sends to it. I kept trying to think of the display as a dumb screen for the core & that got in the way of understanding how to deal with them.
>
> Dave's stated pretty categorically that the Portable doesn't attach FLARMnet data and if anyone would know, it's Dave. That seem logical since it's missing the additional processing provided by a butterfly display (computer).
>
> Glad to hear you've joined the FLARM tribe.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig

--
Dan, 5J