experimental for commercial?

[geo]

What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial purposes?

--
Look at the world today. Is there anything more pitiful? What madness there
is. What blindness. What unintelligent leadership. A scurrying mass of
bewildered humanity, crashing headlong against each other, compelled by an
orgy of greed and brutality. The time must come my friend, when this orgy
will spend itself. When brutality and the lust for power, must perish by its
own sword. -Lost Horizon, 1936

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:06 GMT, "geo" > wrote:

>What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial purposes?

Depends on the certification of the Experimental. If it's certified
Experimental Amateur-Built, commercial operations are prohibited.

The other Experimental sub-categories may allow some limited commercial
operation, but almost always no operations involving carriage of passengers
or cargo for hire. For instance, many of the airshow aircraft you see are
licensed as Experimental-Exhibition, and those are being operated
commercially. Allowable use depends upon the local FSDO.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:39:58 GMT, Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:06 GMT, "geo" > wrote:
>
>>What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial purposes?
>
>Depends on the certification of the Experimental. If it's certified
>Experimental Amateur-Built, commercial operations are prohibited.

Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers or
cargo for compensation.

Ron Wanttaja

[C J Campbell]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:06 GMT, "geo" > wrote:
>
> >What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial
purposes?
>
> Depends on the certification of the Experimental. If it's certified
> Experimental Amateur-Built, commercial operations are prohibited.
>
> The other Experimental sub-categories may allow some limited commercial
> operation, but almost always no operations involving carriage of
passengers
> or cargo for hire. For instance, many of the airshow aircraft you see are
> licensed as Experimental-Exhibition, and those are being operated
> commercially. Allowable use depends upon the local FSDO.

I have wondered about that. EAA and whatever the CAF calls itself now
regularly sell rides on their airplanes. How do they do that?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:07:23 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
>> The other Experimental sub-categories may allow some limited commercial
>> operation, but almost always no operations involving carriage of passengers
>> or cargo for hire. For instance, many of the airshow aircraft you see are
>> licensed as Experimental-Exhibition, and those are being operated
>> commercially. Allowable use depends upon the local FSDO.
>
>I have wondered about that. EAA and whatever the CAF calls itself now
>regularly sell rides on their airplanes. How do they do that?

About half of the B-17s on the US roster (including EAA, and two apparent
CAF examples) are listed as "Limited" category, not "Experimental." Don't
know what standard restrictions are placed on planes in that category, but
with the clout of EAA and the CAF, no doubt they can get favorable rulings
from the FAA.

Other B-17s are in the Restricted or Special Flight Permit categories.
Only one is in the Experimental category...and it's in the Amateur-Built
sub-category.

Otherwise...heck, you don't buy a ride in those airplanes. You donate
money to the appropriate foundation, and receive a FREE ride. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[John Ammeter]

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:39:58 GMT, Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:06 GMT, "geo" > wrote:
>>
>>>What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial purposes?
>>
>>Depends on the certification of the Experimental. If it's certified
>>Experimental Amateur-Built, commercial operations are prohibited.
>
>Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
>operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
>support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
>the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
>shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers or
>cargo for compensation.
>
>Ron Wanttaja

Ron,

I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
charging $150/hour for his time....


John

[Corrie]

Key points: "licensed as Experimental-Exhibition ... Allowable use
depends upon the local FSDO."

Maybe they gave the local FSDO guy a ride...?

I honestly don't know how the Stearmans we gave rides in at PoF (way
back when) were registered. I surely don't recall 2-inch
"EXPERIMENTAL" lettering, though that existed in some of the warbirds.
Not that it matters in a single-seat fighter. :-D

We never sold rides in the multi-seat warbirds; those were always and
only volunteer perks. Now, then, if a hypothetical organization set
up a schedule that X hours of volunteer time earned you a ride in Y
WWII-vintage airplane, that might conceivably raise an eyebrow. Or
not, depending.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:30:06 GMT, "geo" > wrote:
> >
> > >What are the rules for using experimental aircraft for commercial
> purposes?
> >
> > Depends on the certification of the Experimental. If it's certified
> > Experimental Amateur-Built, commercial operations are prohibited.
> >
> > The other Experimental sub-categories may allow some limited commercial
> > operation, but almost always no operations involving carriage of
> passengers
> > or cargo for hire. For instance, many of the airshow aircraft you see are
> > licensed as Experimental-Exhibition, and those are being operated
> > commercially. Allowable use depends upon the local FSDO.
>
> I have wondered about that. EAA and whatever the CAF calls itself now
> regularly sell rides on their airplanes. How do they do that?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter >
wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote:
>>Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
>>operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
>>support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
>>the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
>>shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers or
>>cargo for compensation.
>
>I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
>RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
>charging $150/hour for his time....

You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a fairly
recent (last several years) policy change, though.

While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and a
$5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
yet! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Daniels]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter >
> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
> > wrote:
> >>Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
> >>operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
> >>support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
> >>the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
> >>shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers
or
> >>cargo for compensation.
> >
> >I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
> >RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
> >charging $150/hour for his time....
>
> You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
> provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a fairly
> recent (last several years) policy change, though.
>
> While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
> available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and a
> $5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
> required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.
>
> Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
> yet! :-)
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
homebuilt.

Bill Daniels

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:42:51 GMT, "Bill Daniels" >
wrote:

>"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
>> yet! :-)
>
>I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
>homebuilt.

Well, they *used* to allow it. Back in the '60s, Pete Bowers installed a
glider tow hook on N500F, the original Fly Baby. He went to see the local
FSDO on a Friday to get the appropriate waiver.

The FAA inspector was a bit harried...he'd just come back from a long
vacation, and his in-basket was still stacked with paperwork. Since he
knew Pete, and Pete hand-carried his application, he just signed off on the
glider-tow waiver on N500F.

Pete wasted no time. He spent the entire weekend towing gliders, mostly
his own Baby Bolus.

He got a call on Monday. The inspector had finally made it to the bottom
of his in-basket...and found a new directive from FAA headquarters stating
that amateur-built aircraft could no longer be issued tow waivers.

I don't know the cause of this change of policy, forty-odd years ago. It
certainly could have been a reaction to news that some folks were operating
Amateur-Built aircraft in a commercial fashion, getting paid per tow. The
prohibition is listed in FAAA ORder 8130.2E in the same breath as banner
towing and intentional parachute jumping, and these are also activities
with a lot of commercial activity.

Since the prohibition is contained in an FAA Order, not merely an Advisory
Circular or direction by a particular FSDO, it would probably take a bit of
effort to get changed. EAA could probably do it, but I suspect the number
of homebuilders who would benefit by such a change is actually pretty low.
Probably would work better as an effort by the SSA.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Daniels]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:42:51 GMT, "Bill Daniels" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline
service
> >> yet! :-)
> >
> >I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
> >homebuilt.
>
> Well, they *used* to allow it. Back in the '60s, Pete Bowers installed a
> glider tow hook on N500F, the original Fly Baby. He went to see the local
> FSDO on a Friday to get the appropriate waiver.
>
> The FAA inspector was a bit harried...he'd just come back from a long
> vacation, and his in-basket was still stacked with paperwork. Since he
> knew Pete, and Pete hand-carried his application, he just signed off on
the
> glider-tow waiver on N500F.
>
> Pete wasted no time. He spent the entire weekend towing gliders, mostly
> his own Baby Bolus.
>
> He got a call on Monday. The inspector had finally made it to the bottom
> of his in-basket...and found a new directive from FAA headquarters stating
> that amateur-built aircraft could no longer be issued tow waivers.
>
> I don't know the cause of this change of policy, forty-odd years ago. It
> certainly could have been a reaction to news that some folks were
operating
> Amateur-Built aircraft in a commercial fashion, getting paid per tow. The
> prohibition is listed in FAAA ORder 8130.2E in the same breath as banner
> towing and intentional parachute jumping, and these are also activities
> with a lot of commercial activity.
>
> Since the prohibition is contained in an FAA Order, not merely an Advisory
> Circular or direction by a particular FSDO, it would probably take a bit
of
> effort to get changed. EAA could probably do it, but I suspect the number
> of homebuilders who would benefit by such a change is actually pretty low.
> Probably would work better as an effort by the SSA.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I broached this idea to the SSA but got slapped down hard. There's no
interest there in working for a change. Most air tow operators think the
aging crop dusters they fly are the pinnacle of airplane development even if
it takes six months to get FAA approval to bolt a tow hook to one.

However, if the EAA were to do it there would be an opportunity for some
very interesting engineering in designing a purpose built aircraft to tow
gliders and possibly a good opportunity for the designer to recover his
expenses and make a profit. The payoffs from testing auto engine
conversions, PRSU's and propeller designs under harsh conditions like towing
gliders would be huge.

This is a great idea that would benefit both groups but I fear it will never
go anywhere.

Bill Daniels

[Cy Galley]

I believe it can be done IF your operating limits OKs it.

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:fHYxc.12484$0y.446@attbi_s03...
>
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
> > > wrote:
> > >>Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
> > >>operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
> > >>support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club
used
> > >>the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
> > >>shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry
passengers
> or
> > >>cargo for compensation.
> > >
> > >I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
> > >RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
> > >charging $150/hour for his time....
> >
> > You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
> > provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a
fairly
> > recent (last several years) policy change, though.
> >
> > While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
> > available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and
a
> > $5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
> > required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.
> >
> > Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline
service
> > yet! :-)
> >
> > Ron Wanttaja
>
> I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
> homebuilt.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[David O]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

>Only one [B-17] is in the Experimental category...and it's in the Amateur-Built
>sub-category.

That would be N390TH, which will be re-registered as "Limited"
shortly. It is currently in the final stages of restoration at Tom
Reilly Vintage Aviation in Kissimmee Florida. The plane is owned by
the Liberty Foundation who will tour it much like the EAA tours the
"Aluminum Overcast".

http://www.libertyfoundation.org


David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com