Ventus 2CT or 2CM or DG 808b or ASH26E or LS8t

[John Mason]

I intend to buy a state of the art new glider and I was looking at this
choice.

My main priority is to enjoy the flying and so I want good performance, nice
handling and safe behaviour (no incipient spin tendency to keep me on edge).
I am not sure if I will loose a lot of climb performance if I go for a self
launcher as they are clearly heavier than a turbo, is the convenience worth
loosing the advantage of the low min weight? I Am flying in the UK mainly
and so small feeble thermals are the rule.

Can those who have flown these aircraft please let me have their comments
and help with my decision.

Thanks.

[John Galloway]

John is going to fly in the UK where altitude is not
an issue and a turbo can be flown by any glider pilot,
unlike an SLMG, so that was the relevant market for
his posting. Turbos sell very well in Europe.

BTW I didn't notice any problem with our Duo turbo
engine in test runs at 6,500 ASL in the Pyrenees with
airfield (2300 feet elevation) ground temperature in
the mid 30s C. That can't be very different from the
likely altitude and temperature of saves in your area.
Its climb rate is under 2 knots at STP and it drops
off as you get hotter and higher but a pilot would
have to fly totally irresponsibly to get into a situation
he could not get out of with the turbo. It won't stop
someone from flying into a mountain side or crashing
at low level in a microburst but not much else will
either.

The true climb rate advantage of a motor glider is
the rate of climb (poor in the Duo but OK in the single
seat turbos) plus the sink rate of the equivalent non-powered
glider at around best LD. Our previous Discus BT had
a still air climb rate of about 290 fpm so it was gaining
about 420fpm compared with how things would have been
without the engine. A 10 minute burn would make me
relatively 4,200 feet better off than without the engine
- whatever the sink rate of the air. Less in the Western
USA no doubt but it is surprising how little engine
time is needed to utterly transform a situation.

Many single seat Schempp-Hirth turbos have the little
exhaust outlet restrictors removed and that makes a
big difference to the performance - not that I would
put that in writing. Oops.

John Galloway


At 20:48 06 October 2003, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>'John Galloway' wrote...
>> Another major consideration is that when you come
>>to
>> sell your glider the market for a SLMG is very much
>> smaller than that for a turbo.
>
>This depends on what market you're talking about.
>In the western US, for
>instance, there is essentially no market for turbos
>(given the altitudes and the
>common sink rates, they just don't work), but there
>is a very strong market for
>SLMGs...
>
>Marc
>
>
>

[Steve B]

I would not know how to address the "turbo" sustainer vs Self Launch
decision making process. For me it was a no brainer... here in Hawaii
I have no option it is either self launch or shuffleboard.

I had many of the same questions that you had... I joined the users
group for the design and followed the comments of the users. Also I
spoke with High Country Soaring which has become known as specializing
in repairing motor gliders. The technician mentioned that for a number
of reasons that stuff falls off of the 2 stroke engines mostly from
vibration issues. All of the designs work well from what I can see,
some designs will need constant maintenance or more tweeking to keep
flying than others. It appears from what I was able to research that
the ASH 26 E with the wankle engine is quite a bit less trouble.
Probably part in due to less vibration, it does have some heat issues
in some conditions but overall seems to be best of breed from what
research I have done.

I was told that when you see the quality of an ASH 26 E you will
"Know"... and yes I saw the design and for me it was apparent. I
ordered one.

By the way... when I was at Minden recently I saw a lot of self
launchers take off while I was waiting for a tow plane. I think that
they may know something.

All the ships look beautiful from the air... the closer you get to the
-26 E the prettier it gets in fact I think it is the second most
beautiful sight I have seen "my better half being the first".

Back to the sustainer issue... in marginal conditions you do have the
option of taking out the engine. I hear it takes about an hour. But in
real life I have a feeling that in light air the thermalling speed
difference of 47 kts to 51 for the higher wing loading with the engine
in place that the extra weight would not be the end of the world. I
also think that 10 minutes of power to get back up... for every down
cycle would be worth the price of admission.

Steve



"John Mason" > wrote in message >...
> I intend to buy a state of the art new glider and I was looking at this
> choice.
>
> My main priority is to enjoy the flying and so I want good performance, nice
> handling and safe behaviour (no incipient spin tendency to keep me on edge).
> I am not sure if I will loose a lot of climb performance if I go for a self
> launcher as they are clearly heavier than a turbo, is the convenience worth
> loosing the advantage of the low min weight? I Am flying in the UK mainly
> and so small feeble thermals are the rule.
>
> Can those who have flown these aircraft please let me have their comments
> and help with my decision.
>
> Thanks.

[Bruno Ramseyer]

"John Mason" > wrote in message >...
> I intend to buy a state of the art new glider and I was looking at this
> choice.
>
> My main priority is to enjoy the flying and so I want good performance, nice
> handling and safe behaviour (no incipient spin tendency to keep me on edge).
> I am not sure if I will loose a lot of climb performance if I go for a self
> launcher as they are clearly heavier than a turbo, is the convenience worth
> loosing the advantage of the low min weight? I Am flying in the UK mainly
> and so small feeble thermals are the rule.
>
> Can those who have flown these aircraft please let me have their comments
> and help with my decision.
>
> Thanks.

John,

Turbo in my opinion is good for most requirements. It will get you
home if you miss the last thermal in the evening. It will get you
across a blue patch or will get you to those Cu you can only see in
the distance. No use in strong winds or downwinds you may have in
mountains or in wave, getting you through rainshowers but neither will
the SLMG. With the comps rules now changed in the UK you are no longer
penalised when having a Turbo. Increase in Wingloading is negligible
in a 18m ship and if the thermals are so weak that you are not able to
climb you still can pop out the Turbo. If you are looking at buying a
new glider my practically new ship is for sale
http://www.tcw.ie/for_sale.htm

Regards
Bruno

[Udo Rumpf]

> For me weight is the only issue. I can afford the extra costs and can pay
> the extra for maintenance, I am not too bothered by the resale issue. I
> have a current PPL and so the SLMG PPL is no big deal. I do like the idea
> of being independent and not needing a club launch with its inevitable
> waiting around. For me this is the main trade off. Does the weight
> disadvantage of a self launcher compared to a turbo offset the advantages
of
> time saving, independence and climb rate that you have with the self
> launcher?
>
> So really I have a two part question.
>
> 1. Turbo vs Self Launcher?

I have experimented with a 7.5 and 8.5 lb/sqft, wing loading, in a pure
glider, which represents in this case the installation of a motor (110 lb)
The difference is very small possibly ~50 feet when topping out at the top
of a thermal.
The only other issue is ground (man) handling.
Go as light as you can. Unfortunately you will only appreciate this after
you switch from a heavy to a lighter motor glider.
Udo

[John Galloway]

John,

The Discus 2CT isn't intended to improve on the Ventus
- they are different model lines, one derived from
the 15m racing class Ventus, and the other from the
standard class Discus 2. The Discus 2 is not 'club
class' but winner of the first three places in the
recent world championship standard class. You already
have a non-flapped standard class derived 18m glider
in your list (LS8t) so the D 2CT would be directly
comparable to that.

All of these 18 meter gliders have such good performance
and handling that unless you are at world championship
standard the differences in performance are unimportant
and the glider that feels best and most comfortable
to you and does the things you want it to do would
be best.

It sounds like the Antares electric self launcher might
interest a man of your means if you want the absolute
leading edge of technology:

http://www.lange-flugzeugbau.de/english/english.html

John Galloway


At 12:48 07 October 2003, John Mason wrote:
>
>'John Galloway' wrote in
>message ...
>> ? add Discus 2CT (18m turbo) to your list. Of course
>> it hasn't flown yet but will do fairly soon and deliveries
>> start next year.
>>
>> The D2CT basically seems to be a single seat Duo in
>> that it shares very similar wing design in wing section,
>> swept plan form, and polydihedral and there seems
>>to
>> be every reason for it to share the Duo's exceptionally
>> sensitive and benign handling characteristics. It
>> also seems to have the new Maughmer winglets that
>>seem
>> pretty successful on the Ventus 2CX. These are my
>> own thoughts and not based on any comments from the
>> factory.
>
>Thanks for this information.
>
>The question does follow though: What improvement
>the Discus 18m can give
>on the flapped Ventus and why if it is a better aircraft
>than the Ventus
>that the factory consider it worth developing a new
>model rather than
>improve the Ventus?
>
>I suspect it is the case that the new Discus is really
>made to be a 15m club
>class option and they thought they could just stick
>on some wing extensions
>for those people who don't like flaps or for those
>15m pilots to have the
>option of 18m as a low cost extra. If this is the
>case it doesn't sound
>like a solution designed for the job I need, which
>is a no compromise top
>performing ship.
>
>>
>> IMHO the benefits of a self launcher over a turbo
>>are
>> far outweighed by the extra cost, weight and maintenance
>> demands of the SLMG. In the UK just take a winch
>> launch and pop the engine out if you need more height
>> instead of wasting money on an aerotow.
>
>For me weight is the only issue. I can afford the
>extra costs and can pay
>the extra for maintenance, I am not too bothered by
>the resale issue. I
>have a current PPL and so the SLMG PPL is no big deal.
> I do like the idea
>of being independent and not needing a club launch
>with its inevitable
>waiting around. For me this is the main trade off.
> Does the weight
>disadvantage of a self launcher compared to a turbo
>offset the advantages of
>time saving, independence and climb rate that you have
>with the self
>launcher?
>
>So really I have a two part question.
>
>1. Turbo vs Self Launcher?
>
>2. Which ship?
>
>Cheers,
>John
>
>
>
>
>

[Paul]

>
> So really I have a two part question.
>
> 1. Turbo vs Self Launcher?
>
> 2. Which ship?
>
> Cheers,
> John

Self Launcher! As you can afford the associated costs you may as well go for
the total independence. Get the one man rigging options with the trailer and
then you need no one to help you fly. As this is the major advantage of a
self launcher. You are your own man. Nice day Wednesday? No club operation?
No problem!

Which ship? As the three you have left. ASH 26e, Ventus 2CM and DG 808B all
have various pros and cons then its a personal decision. Cockpit layout,
canopy opening, instrument layout, engine control systems etc. Go to each
manufacturers factories and see their operations. See what comes as standard
in the initial price. Look through the options and see what the addons are
going to sting you. Find out delivery times and when it suits YOU to have
the glider not the manufacturer. Payment options etc. Also fly each one. Not
just a quick circuit but a good couple of launches, soaring if possible, to
see what systems you will be happy with operating during takeoff, climb and
air starts.

You are spending a faily large chunk of change so its in your interest to
check them out properly, not go on what secondhand info is floating around.

Good luck.

[John Morgan]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > So really I have a two part question.
> >
> > 1. Turbo vs Self Launcher?
> >
> > 2. Which ship?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > John
>
> Self Launcher! As you can afford the associated costs you may as well go
for
> the total independence. Get the one man rigging options with the trailer
and
> then you need no one to help you fly. As this is the major advantage of a
> self launcher. You are your own man. Nice day Wednesday? No club
operation?
> No problem!
>
> Which ship? As the three you have left. ASH 26e, Ventus 2CM and DG 808B
all
> have various pros and cons then its a personal decision.

Or you can save yourself all that shopping hassle and get the very best of
the three, the ASH26e! The biggest downside is that the wait has often been
longer than that for an DG 808B. If you talk to the maintenance shops at
Minden, NV that work on gliders, and ask them which MG is best, you'll hear
something like, "Well, if you're going to get a motorglider, the one to get
is the 26." The reasons are build quality and lack of engine vibration from
the Wankel rotary Schleicher uses. Some 2-stroke motorgliders suffer
recurring vibration induced failures. Not to say the 26 is perfect, but if
not perfect, it's pleasantly nearly so!

I think there are but 3 or 4 ASH26e at Minden (the newest being mine - - so
this isn't second hand :c). There are many more DG 800/808. Since
performance between these two ships is reported as essentially the same and
both are good ships, I've asked several DG owners what led them to their
choice. All said availability.

--
bumper - ZZ >
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
to reply, the last half is right to left



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[Mike Borgelt]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:40:53 +0000 (UTC), "John Mason"
> wrote:

>
>"John Galloway" > wrote in
>message ...
>> ? add Discus 2CT (18m turbo) to your list. Of course
>> it hasn't flown yet but will do fairly soon and deliveries
>> start next year.
>>
>> The D2CT basically seems to be a single seat Duo in
>> that it shares very similar wing design in wing section,
>> swept plan form, and polydihedral and there seems to
>> be every reason for it to share the Duo's exceptionally
>> sensitive and benign handling characteristics. It
>> also seems to have the new Maughmer winglets that seem
>> pretty successful on the Ventus 2CX. These are my
>> own thoughts and not based on any comments from the
>> factory.
>
>Thanks for this information.
>
>The question does follow though: What improvement the Discus 18m can give
>on the flapped Ventus and why if it is a better aircraft than the Ventus
>that the factory consider it worth developing a new model rather than
>improve the Ventus?
>
>I suspect it is the case that the new Discus is really made to be a 15m club
>class option and they thought they could just stick on some wing extensions
>for those people who don't like flaps or for those 15m pilots to have the
>option of 18m as a low cost extra. If this is the case it doesn't sound
>like a solution designed for the job I need, which is a no compromise top
>performing ship.
>
>>
>> IMHO the benefits of a self launcher over a turbo are
>> far outweighed by the extra cost, weight and maintenance
>> demands of the SLMG. In the UK just take a winch
>> launch and pop the engine out if you need more height
>> instead of wasting money on an aerotow.
>
>For me weight is the only issue. I can afford the extra costs and can pay
>the extra for maintenance, I am not too bothered by the resale issue. I
>have a current PPL and so the SLMG PPL is no big deal. I do like the idea
>of being independent and not needing a club launch with its inevitable
>waiting around. For me this is the main trade off. Does the weight
>disadvantage of a self launcher compared to a turbo offset the advantages of
>time saving, independence and climb rate that you have with the self
>launcher?
>
>So really I have a two part question.
>
>1. Turbo vs Self Launcher?
>
>2. Which ship?
>
>Cheers,
>John
>
>
>
John,

Get a self launcher. You'll love it.

Mike Borgelt