Cirrus/Std Cirrus

[Tim Winter]

Used to have a Std Libelle and had to sell her. But getting back into flying and shopping for something new.

SUPPOSE all things equal, condition, avionics, rigging tools, trailer type and condition etc. AND same price. Which would you rather have? Open or Std Cirrus? I fly east coast USA and conditions are rarely STRONG.

[Scott Williams]

My opinion is only half of your question, But I flew an SHK 17 meter glider for a few years and had decent ground handling gear. Last year replaced it with a Std Cirrus and couldn't be happier. The light and nimble handling, roomy cockpit, generous useful load, everything about the STd Cirrus is just easier!

Good Luck!
Scott, N8915/n1521

[Iain Marshall]

At 02:34 14 November 2016, Scott Williams wrote:
>My opinion is only half of your question, But I flew an SHK 17 meter
>glider=
> for a few years and had decent ground handling gear. Last year
replaced
>it=
> with a Std Cirrus and couldn't be happier. The light and nimble
handling,
>=
>roomy cockpit, generous useful load, everything about the STd Cirrus
is
>jus=
>t easier!
>
>Good Luck!
>Scott, N8915/n1521
>

Std Cirrus is a very capable glider for it's vintage.
See if you can find one with the airbrake mod and/or winglets.

Iain
Feshie-Where Eagles and Gliders soar
together!

[krasw]

Std.Cirrus is lovely glider, easy and pleasant to fly. It's not as easy to rig as Libelle, though (manual control connections). Only problem is weak airbrakes, you got to master the slip very well.

[[email protected]]

Have never flown it, but the 18m-cirrus owners at my airfield tell me it does great in weak conditions.

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

I have one of each at Marfa, Texas. My Dad's 1968 Open Cirrus and a Standard Cirrus with the factory "twist" wing mod (after about serial #185.) The Standard is popular in the Club class. It has the all-flying tail, a bit pitchy at high speed but you learn quickly to be smooth on the stick. The all-flying tail is not ideal for ground launching, as I understand it.

The hand lever wheel brake system is poor. I modified mine with the new Tost booster unit from Wings and Wheels. Both of my Cirri have a lanyard cord extension on the hard to reach tow release lever (especially important for CG hook launches.)

The Open Cirrus is the star in "The Sun Ship Game" movie filmed at the 1969 US Nationals at Marfa, TX. Thick wing and usually the winner in the late-day "last pilot to land" competitions. Beautiful profile aloft and a sweetheart to fly. My (Dad's) Open Cirrus FC is Miss April in the 2017 SSA Calendar (on sale now at the SSA.org website.)

Both Cirri have CG towhooks unless modified. I never had a problem (no one told me as a kid about CG issues, I just followed the towplane and never got high on tow, towplane wheels on or above the horizon.) If an Open Cirrus still has the drag chute, use caution. It is pure drag that cannot the modulated like air brakes. Most have been removed. I have a tutorial to e-mail you on using the drag chute on the Open Cirrus and many of the early glass ships. The water ballast tanks were metal on the early Open Cirrus, before around serial #40. They would leak and sealant sloshing didn't help much. Not much water capacity anyway.

Check the Airworthiness Directives at the FAA website and the Technical Notes on the Schempp-Hirth website. (The excellent Open Cirrus Owners website is dormant but the Standard is active.)
I can discuss more about flying Cirri if you request a ground school session with me.

My final thoughts . . . whenever a former Standard or Open Cirrus owner sees my two Cirri under the bright lights in my big hangar at Marfa, they usually say, "I wish I still had my Cirrus." I get many offers and I might sell the Standard someday but the Open Cirrus is "family" and it was my Dad's favorite sailplane. Fritz Compton would have been 101 this year.

Find photos of my Open Cirrus (drag chute deployed) on my Facebook page under "Burton Compton."

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 11/13/2016 6:58 PM, Tim Winter wrote:
> Used to have a Std Libelle and had to sell her. But getting back into
> flying and shopping for something new.
>
> SUPPOSE all things equal, condition, avionics, rigging tools, trailer type
> and condition etc. AND same price. Which would you rather have? Open or Std
> Cirrus? I fly east coast USA and conditions are rarely STRONG.
>

Others have noted "the basic differences" between these (both very nice, IMHO)
ships. I've flown neither, but have rigged and shared thermals/airspace with
both. For "Joe Average non-competition-sensitive soaring Pilot", there's
little to choose between them in performance, though the Open is almost
certainly a marginally better "floater"...balanced against being less nimble
and "the typical late-day structure" of your site's thermals.

Prolly "the biggest easily noticeable difference" is the additional heft of
the Open Cirrus, though it *can* be rigged with just two people (if the
wingtip guy has a good back and is patient). No question in my mind the
15-meter Cirrus is distinctly more user friendly in the rigging sense. Another
(possible) consideration is many of the 15-meter versions came with
(functionally decent) Eberle trailers, while "quite a few (?)" of the Open
babies live in (usually less user-friendly) homebuilt trailers.

Conceptually, I'd view the Open's drag 'chute as a "measure twice/cut once"
sort of device...fun to play with (under sensible circumstances) but nothing
you'd want to bet your future on without considerable "getting to know each
other" time beforehand.

Welcome back to soaring!

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:58:41 PM UTC-5, Tim Winter wrote:
> Used to have a Std Libelle and had to sell her. But getting back into flying and shopping for something new.
>
> SUPPOSE all things equal, condition, avionics, rigging tools, trailer type and condition etc. AND same price. Which would you rather have? Open or Std Cirrus? I fly east coast USA and conditions are rarely STRONG.

I bought a Std Cirrus as my first glass ship back in 1980, she treated me well and I flew that ole girl for about 800 hours before moving on to an ASW20. The Cirrus is a great bird and has a roomy cockpit for us bigger types. Great ship, fun to fly but make sure you update the brakes.

[Jim Kellett]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:58:41 PM UTC-5, Tim Winter wrote:
> Used to have a Std Libelle and had to sell her. But getting back into flying and shopping for something new.
>
> SUPPOSE all things equal, condition, avionics, rigging tools, trailer type and condition etc. AND same price. Which would you rather have? Open or Std Cirrus? I fly east coast USA and conditions are rarely STRONG.

Mostly, "What Burt said". I'd just add that (1) the detachable canopy on the Cirrus is a pain in the ass, but if you've owned a Libelle you're already 'there', (2) the two aircraft are COMPLETELY different! The only thing they have in common is the name. (3) There were many more standards than opens built, so it's MUCH easier to get a standard in decent condition (and with a decent trailer) than the open (4) the open is much better in east coast conditions (Holighaus designed it for "European soaring conditions". The polar isn't as flat as the standard, but it'll outclimb a 1-26 in weak thermals. (5) avoid the all-flying tail standard models (twitchy in pitch, and speculatively responsible for at least one serious accident), and avoid any opens that were VTC variants (poor quality construction; you can spot them because the elevators have "horns" to improve mass balance). Oh, and my open was on the cover of the April, 2001 SOARING magazine, with the drag chute out - - and I really liked to play with the drag chute; made great photo ops!

[Ben Hughes]

At 12:04 17 November 2016, Jim Kellett

(5) avoid the all-flying tail standard models (twitchy in pitch,
>a=
>nd speculatively responsible for at least one serious accident), and
avoid
>=
>any opens that were VTC variants (poor quality construction; you can spot
>t=
>hem because the elevators have "horns" to improve mass balance).

With only three fixed-elevator German-built ones in existence, you could
had
a fight on your hands to fulfil both criteria...

The all-flying tail is nothing to worry about.

[SF]

Mm first glider was an Open Cirrus. Great aircraft, with certain limitations. It will stay up when nothing else will. Speeds above 65 Knots result in the altimeter spinning down faster than you want it to. Don't spin it to the right, cause it really does not want to exit the spin right away. If you don't have a gym membership, you are going to need one to rig it. The wing root is pretty heavy at the end of the day. You are going to have to make a lot of good friends at your local glider club that will help you when you want to rig it. The trailer is pretty important. I suggest that you pull the trailer to a nice flat spot and you and a friend rig it under the direction of the current owner as part of your pre-purchase decision. It's a lot of glider for the money if you are OK with its limatations. If it still has a drogue chute in the tail, practice with it before you need it for real. Don't pull it the first time until you are over the numbers, and be prepared to put the nose down right away. That said, if you have a short field, the chute is a magic bullet to have in your pocket. I used mine once, I really needed it at that time, and as a result that Open Cirrus is still flying.

SF

[Tim Winter]

Man, thanks for all the replies!

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 6:58:41 PM UTC-7, Tim Winter wrote:
> Used to have a Std Libelle and had to sell her. But getting back into flying and shopping for something new.
>
> SUPPOSE all things equal, condition, avionics, rigging tools, trailer type and condition etc. AND same price. Which would you rather have? Open or Std Cirrus? I fly east coast USA and conditions are rarely STRONG.

I personally recommend only considering the Schempp-Hirth built Open Cirrus if you go that route. The VTC built have limitations.

Frank Whiteley