Re: Record height for a winch launch?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, 5 March 2001 01:00:08 UTC+1, MHende6388 wrote:
> Curious what the highest sailplane launch from a winch has ever been for the
> longest cable.
>
> Michael

At the Reinsdorf Airfield whinch launches with 2,600m (8500ft) cable are possible. As long as I know, the record was a ASK-21 to 1380m (4500ft).

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:53:58 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Monday, 5 March 2001 01:00:08 UTC+1, MHende6388 wrote:
> > Curious what the highest sailplane launch from a winch has ever been for the
> > longest cable.
> >
> > Michael
>
> At the Reinsdorf Airfield whinch launches with 2,600m (8500ft) cable are possible. As long as I know, the record was a ASK-21 to 1380m (4500ft).

This takes this month's award for replying to a thread last posted to 15 years ago.

I note that back then I said:

> Winches are great, but 2000 ft over the end of the airfield is only
> worth about the same as 1500 ft from a typical towplane that puts you in
> the general direction of the lift.

In the intervening time I've found that I've been releasing from aero tow lower and lower and almost always getting away if the conditions are reasonable. I seldom tow over 1500 ft and at some sites often release at 700 - 800 ft above the strip. A few tow pilots have approached me after I come back, saying they though I must have some problem.

Flying in the back seat with other qualified pilots at the controls it's amazing how many people hold on to the tow straight through monster thermals at 1000 ft simply because they're fixated on their pre-flight notion to tow to 2000, 2500 or whatever. Or maybe don't yet have the surplus mental bandwidth in that aircraft to follow the towplane in active conditions and also at the same time keep an eye on the vario.

I know I was like that myself once, and only got woken up from it one day on a site check in a Grob at Omarama when the top competition pilot/CFI in the back seat asked me why I didn't take the booming thermal we just flew through. All I could think about was slack line recovery after the towplane was suddenly 50 ft below me -- not ask *why* the towplane was suddenly plummeting.

[AS]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:53:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, 5 March 2001 01:00:08 UTC+1, MHende6388 wrote:
> > Curious what the highest sailplane launch from a winch has ever been for the
> > longest cable.
> >
> > Michael
>
> At the Reinsdorf Airfield whinch launches with 2,600m (8500ft) cable are possible. As long as I know, the record was a ASK-21 to 1380m (4500ft).

There are several YouTube videos out there showing winch launches made from the Weelde, Belgium airbase going to >1,450m (4,760ft) using >3,000m of Spectra/Dyneema line and a K21.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1uC0lFVXNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dw6r_1r91M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyRlkOgkZho

We (Carolina Soaring Assoc.) do achieve anywhere between 1,300-2,100ft using our home built winch powered by a mildly hopped-up Ford 460 engine and 4,300ft of Spectra. Wind and pilot skills have a strong influence on the resulting release height.

Uli

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:46:52 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:53:58 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > On Monday, 5 March 2001 01:00:08 UTC+1, MHende6388 wrote:
> > > Curious what the highest sailplane launch from a winch has ever been for the
> > > longest cable.
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> > At the Reinsdorf Airfield whinch launches with 2,600m (8500ft) cable are possible. As long as I know, the record was a ASK-21 to 1380m (4500ft).
>
> This takes this month's award for replying to a thread last posted to 15 years ago.
>
> I note that back then I said:
>
> > Winches are great, but 2000 ft over the end of the airfield is only
> > worth about the same as 1500 ft from a typical towplane that puts you in
> > the general direction of the lift.
>
> In the intervening time I've found that I've been releasing from aero tow lower and lower and almost always getting away if the conditions are reasonable. I seldom tow over 1500 ft and at some sites often release at 700 - 800 ft above the strip. A few tow pilots have approached me after I come back, saying they though I must have some problem.
>
> Flying in the back seat with other qualified pilots at the controls it's amazing how many people hold on to the tow straight through monster thermals at 1000 ft simply because they're fixated on their pre-flight notion to tow to 2000, 2500 or whatever. Or maybe don't yet have the surplus mental bandwidth in that aircraft to follow the towplane in active conditions and also at the same time keep an eye on the vario.
>
> I know I was like that myself once, and only got woken up from it one day on a site check in a Grob at Omarama when the top competition pilot/CFI in the back seat asked me why I didn't take the booming thermal we just flew through. All I could think about was slack line recovery after the towplane was suddenly 50 ft below me -- not ask *why* the towplane was suddenly plummeting.

I'm with Bruce: high release altitudes, who needs them. Taking pride in releasing low and getting away is a great way to start a good day. Our tow pilots know that and take pride in towing me to the low thermals. They also love to needle me the one or two times each year when I have to relight...
Things are a bit different when ballasted, but only a bit.

[[email protected]]

Aerobatic pilots need altitude. The pilots of Weelde were aerobatic glider pilots.

[AS]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:36:54 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:46:52 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:53:58 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > > On Monday, 5 March 2001 01:00:08 UTC+1, MHende6388 wrote:
> > > > Curious what the highest sailplane launch from a winch has ever been for the
> > > > longest cable.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > >
> > > At the Reinsdorf Airfield whinch launches with 2,600m (8500ft) cable are possible. As long as I know, the record was a ASK-21 to 1380m (4500ft).
> >
> > This takes this month's award for replying to a thread last posted to 15 years ago.
> >
> > I note that back then I said:
> >
> > > Winches are great, but 2000 ft over the end of the airfield is only
> > > worth about the same as 1500 ft from a typical towplane that puts you in
> > > the general direction of the lift.
> >
> > In the intervening time I've found that I've been releasing from aero tow lower and lower and almost always getting away if the conditions are reasonable. I seldom tow over 1500 ft and at some sites often release at 700 - 800 ft above the strip. A few tow pilots have approached me after I come back, saying they though I must have some problem.
> >
> > Flying in the back seat with other qualified pilots at the controls it's amazing how many people hold on to the tow straight through monster thermals at 1000 ft simply because they're fixated on their pre-flight notion to tow to 2000, 2500 or whatever. Or maybe don't yet have the surplus mental bandwidth in that aircraft to follow the towplane in active conditions and also at the same time keep an eye on the vario.
> >
> > I know I was like that myself once, and only got woken up from it one day on a site check in a Grob at Omarama when the top competition pilot/CFI in the back seat asked me why I didn't take the booming thermal we just flew through. All I could think about was slack line recovery after the towplane was suddenly 50 ft below me -- not ask *why* the towplane was suddenly plummeting.
>
> I'm with Bruce: high release altitudes, who needs them. Taking pride in releasing low and getting away is a great way to start a good day. Our tow pilots know that and take pride in towing me to the low thermals. They also love to needle me the one or two times each year when I have to relight...
> Things are a bit different when ballasted, but only a bit.

>>> ...high release altitudes, who needs them <<<
I am with Roel.b: Aerobatic pilots and students need high launch altitudes to keep cost down! ;-)

[[email protected]]

Releasing early is not just a cost issue. I used to take pride in releasing from aerotow in the first good thermal, below 1,000 feet or not. But at our gliderport, landing back and waiting for the queue to clear in front of you on a good day can take an hour or more depending on how many training flights/rides are stuffed in. Doesn't happen often but the penalty when it does is severe.

Chip Bearden

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 11:01:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Aerobatic pilots need altitude. The pilots of Weelde were aerobatic glider pilots.

Indeed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dw6r_1r91M ~1450m in 2 minutes. Record of 1740m was done in 2007 with run of 3000m.

IIRC, the winch (not the mel ad video) that was used in the record 1700m launch and some launches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFKsjDIjmDg&list=PL7DF0FF821E223010

Check out this first solo and her video
http://www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/torrington_schoolgirl_14_on_cloud_nine_after_histo ric_first_solo_glider_flight_1_4797335

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 7:23:04 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 11:01:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Aerobatic pilots need altitude. The pilots of Weelde were aerobatic glider pilots.
>
> Indeed
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dw6r_1r91M ~1450m in 2 minutes. Record of 1740m was done in 2007 with run of 3000m.
>
> IIRC, the winch (not the mel ad video) that was used in the record 1700m launch and some launches
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFKsjDIjmDg&list=PL7DF0FF821E223010
>
> Check out this first solo and her video
> http://www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/torrington_schoolgirl_14_on_cloud_nine_after_histo ric_first_solo_glider_flight_1_4797335
>
> Frank Whiteley

Number of aerobatic glider pilots in the Chicagoland area (4 clubs including Beloit WI) is exactly Zero. High tows, who needs them?

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 9:36:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> Number of aerobatic glider pilots in the Chicagoland area (4 clubs including Beloit WI) is exactly Zero. High tows, who needs them?

Herb, what do you do on days when there is no lift?

Take a high tow then spend a few exhilarating minutes pulling G's and making the world go around - you just haven't lived until you have looked up at the ground from the top of a loop, or felt that moment of stillness at the apex of a hammerhead (stall turn) when there is just the silent rotation of your glider before it accelerates back straight down...

You guys have K-21s, don't you? Use them!

Seriously - if you have the opportunity to take an acro course - do it; it will open up a whole new way to enjoy gliders, and improve your flying skills.

Kirk
66

Have enjoyed acro in a variety of gliders including G-103 Acros, K-21s, 2-32s, 1-26s, L-13ACs and an incredible Swift S-1 (9G's on that one!!!). Oh, and maybe a little in my LS6... ;^)

[Dan Marotta]

My LS-6 did fine loops and rolls (mainly the barrel type) and
cloverleafs but stall it in landing configuration and you got to
practice your spin recovery techniques! Oh, and it was terrific on
ground launches though I never had a chance to use so much rope.

Dan
5J

On 12/3/2016 4:53 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 9:36:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>> Number of aerobatic glider pilots in the Chicagoland area (4 clubs including Beloit WI) is exactly Zero. High tows, who needs them?
> Herb, what do you do on days when there is no lift?
>
> Take a high tow then spend a few exhilarating minutes pulling G's and making the world go around - you just haven't lived until you have looked up at the ground from the top of a loop, or felt that moment of stillness at the apex of a hammerhead (stall turn) when there is just the silent rotation of your glider before it accelerates back straight down...
>
> You guys have K-21s, don't you? Use them!
>
> Seriously - if you have the opportunity to take an acro course - do it; it will open up a whole new way to enjoy gliders, and improve your flying skills.
>
> Kirk
> 66
>
> Have enjoyed acro in a variety of gliders including G-103 Acros, K-21s, 2-32s, 1-26s, L-13ACs and an incredible Swift S-1 (9G's on that one!!!). Oh, and maybe a little in my LS6... ;^)
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 5:53:13 PM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 9:36:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> >
> > Number of aerobatic glider pilots in the Chicagoland area (4 clubs including Beloit WI) is exactly Zero. High tows, who needs them?
>
> Herb, what do you do on days when there is no lift?
>
> Take a high tow then spend a few exhilarating minutes pulling G's and making the world go around - you just haven't lived until you have looked up at the ground from the top of a loop, or felt that moment of stillness at the apex of a hammerhead (stall turn) when there is just the silent rotation of your glider before it accelerates back straight down...
>
> You guys have K-21s, don't you? Use them!
>
> Seriously - if you have the opportunity to take an acro course - do it; it will open up a whole new way to enjoy gliders, and improve your flying skills.
>
> Kirk
> 66
>
> Have enjoyed acro in a variety of gliders including G-103 Acros, K-21s, 2-32s, 1-26s, L-13ACs and an incredible Swift S-1 (9G's on that one!!!). Oh, and maybe a little in my LS6... ;^)

Kirk, of course you are right. My statements were somewhat tongue-in-cheek to expose the habit of taking high tows for no good reason. I enjoy the ~5sec of Zero-g that you can get from a well-flown hammerhead stall and we spin our ASK-21's regularly during flight reviews and in student training (with tail weights). So go, take the 3,500' aero-tow, your club treasurer will be thankful.
Herb

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 1:04:54 PM UTC-6, wrote:

> Kirk, of course you are right. My statements were somewhat tongue-in-cheek to expose the habit of taking high tows for no good reason. I enjoy the ~5sec of Zero-g that you can get from a well-flown hammerhead stall and we spin our ASK-21's regularly during flight reviews and in student training (with tail weights). So go, take the 3,500' aero-tow, your club treasurer will be thankful.
> Herb

Awesome! I need to talk our club into getting the spin kit for our K-21; currently we use our L-13AC...

Has there been any interest in a glider acro program in your parts?

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 3:26:43 PM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 1:04:54 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> > Kirk, of course you are right. My statements were somewhat tongue-in-cheek to expose the habit of taking high tows for no good reason. I enjoy the ~5sec of Zero-g that you can get from a well-flown hammerhead stall and we spin our ASK-21's regularly during flight reviews and in student training (with tail weights). So go, take the 3,500' aero-tow, your club treasurer will be thankful.
> > Herb
>
> Awesome! I need to talk our club into getting the spin kit for our K-21; currently we use our L-13AC...
>
> Has there been any interest in a glider acro program in your parts?
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk, Like I said, I don't know of anyone in the greater Chicago area who is even qualified to teach aerobatics. Way back in Provence, France I had a chance to pay for a high 4,000' tow with an expert French aerobatics pilot, incredible. Especially the inverted ridge-soaring, no kidding. I'd be very interested in learning more about it.
Herb J7