Re: Binder EB29R

[krasw]

maanantai 4. huhtikuuta 2016 18.23.07 UTC+3 krasw kirjoitti:
> Binder's latest open class toy:
>
> http://www.aerokurier.de/luftsport/segelflug/erlkoenig-gesichtet-binder-eb29-mit-neuem-superschlankem-fluegel/673720?special_id=673028
>
> Quite respectable wing loading for such span.

Out of curiosity, I watched some competition flights of EB 29 and EB 29R pair flying with SeeYou (http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/coppa-internazionale-del-mediterraneo-rieti-2016/results). The R-model systematically glided either faster with same glide ratio or with same speed and better glider ratio. Much better. Interesting to see what happens in Australia.

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 8 décembre 2016 10:08:23 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
> maanantai 4. huhtikuuta 2016 18.23.07 UTC+3 krasw kirjoitti:
> > Binder's latest open class toy:
> >
> > http://www.aerokurier.de/luftsport/segelflug/erlkoenig-gesichtet-binder-eb29-mit-neuem-superschlankem-fluegel/673720?special_id=673028
> >
> > Quite respectable wing loading for such span.
>
> Out of curiosity, I watched some competition flights of EB 29 and EB 29R pair flying with SeeYou (http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/coppa-internazionale-del-mediterraneo-rieti-2016/results). The R-model systematically glided either faster with same glide ratio or with same speed and better glider ratio. Much better. Interesting to see what happens in Australia.

Well, the R model has a completely different wing.

[ND]

yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 6:32:52 AM UTC-7, ND wrote:
> yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.

My information says this might need to wait as DB and the Concordia will not be at the WGC in Benalla.

Best. #711.

[Ventus_a]

yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.

With Michael Sommer flying a 29R I'm expecting it to go very well. Michael also flew from Benalla for some years while living in Melbourne so it will be a bit like going home for him.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all the new gliders go

:-) Colin

[JS]

Does the EB29R have modern features like automatic control hookups?
The EB29 does not. Seems pretty poor for a $400,000 single seat glider.
Jim

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 10:13:55 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
> Does the EB29R have modern features like automatic control hookups?
> The EB29 does not. Seems pretty poor for a $400,000 single seat glider.
> Jim

It should come with a German factory technician who rigs it for you...

[krasw]

On Thursday, 8 December 2016 20:13:55 UTC+2, JS wrote:
> Does the EB29R have modern features like automatic control hookups?
> The EB29 does not. Seems pretty poor for a $400,000 single seat glider.
> Jim

You would probably rig and de-rig only couple of times in flying season. It is not a glider you take out of trailer every morning.

[ND]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:22:37 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 6:32:52 AM UTC-7, ND wrote:
> > yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.
>
> My information says this might need to wait as DB and the Concordia will not be at the WGC in Benalla.
>
> Best. #711.

yeah that's a shame. more of a hypothetical "let's see". hopefully there's a chance to directly compare them in the future.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 13:37 09 December 2016, ND wrote:
>On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:22:37 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley
#711 wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 6:32:52 AM UTC-7, ND wrote:
>> > yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.
>>
>> My information says this might need to wait as DB and the
Concordia will
>not be at the WGC in Benalla.
>>
>> Best. #711.
>
>yeah that's a shame. more of a hypothetical "let's see". hopefully
there's
>a chance to directly compare them in the future.
>

Be interesting to see how the much cheaper and smaller JS1C will
stack up against the EB29R.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

The old adage "There is no substitute for span" has been challenged by the JS-1 using wing loading. I still am a believer in span, and one flies an open bird differently, they are much better at dolphin flying. Looking forward to seeing the JS-1C, EB-29R's, and Quintus competing at WGC. My personal view, 21 meters is too short, might fly the best but missing some of the majesty of the longer wings!


On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:15:06 AM UTC-8, Paul T wrote:
> At 13:37 09 December 2016, ND wrote:
> >On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:22:37 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley
> #711 wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 6:32:52 AM UTC-7, ND wrote:
> >> > yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.
> >>
> >> My information says this might need to wait as DB and the
> Concordia will
> >not be at the WGC in Benalla.
> >>
> >> Best. #711.
> >
> >yeah that's a shame. more of a hypothetical "let's see". hopefully
> there's
> >a chance to directly compare them in the future.
> >
>
> Be interesting to see how the much cheaper and smaller JS1C will
> stack up against the EB29R.

[Ventus_a]

;933920']At 13:37 09 December 2016, ND wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:22:37 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley
#711 wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 6:32:52 AM UTC-7, ND wrote:
yeah i mean it's cool, but let's see if it can hang with concordia.

My information says this might need to wait as DB and the
Concordia will
not be at the WGC in Benalla.

Best. #711.

yeah that's a shame. more of a hypothetical "let's see". hopefully
there's
a chance to directly compare them in the future.


Be interesting to see how the much cheaper and smaller JS1C will
stack up against the EB29R.

The JS1C has flown 2 worlds finishing behind the EB29 both times. The EB29R with both more wing span and wing loading along with the lower span loading should, if it was only down to the glider, finish ahead of the JS1C and the other gliders.

It will however be down to the pilots and I for one will be fascinated to see how this contest of pilots and equipment plays out.

Roll on January 2017!

:-) Colin

[krasw]

Binder and Sommer on EBs, very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiI--frRIg4

And not surprisingly, but 29Rs dominated first weak (?) flying day of WGC.

[Pete Smith[_5_]]

At 08:42 10 January 2017, krasw wrote:
>Binder and Sommer on EBs, very interesting:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiI--frRIg4
>
>And not surprisingly, but 29Rs dominated first weak (?) flying day of
WGC.
>

32 points ahead of Andy in the JS1, one heck of a spanking

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 4:45:12 AM UTC-5, Pete Smith wrote:
> At 08:42 10 January 2017, krasw wrote:
> >Binder and Sommer on EBs, very interesting:
> >
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiI--frRIg4
> >
> >And not surprisingly, but 29Rs dominated first weak (?) flying day of
> WGC.
> >
>
> 32 points ahead of Andy in the JS1, one heck of a spanking

Day one was about not doing anything stupid. Scores are essentially a wash for the top few.
Not surprising that 29R with many time world champion is at or near the top, given the conditions.

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 10 January 2017 17:03:57 UTC+2, wrote:
>
> Day one was about not doing anything stupid. Scores are essentially a wash for the top few.
> Not surprising that 29R with many time world champion is at or near the top, given the conditions.

Watching todays competition flights with seeyou shows that 29R's advantage is absolutely brutal in low speed range. We are talking systematical 10-20% better glide ratio and 0,1-0,2 m/s better climb rate in almost every glide and thermal where other gliders (well, JS1c) are available for comparison.

[Tony[_5_]]

Strange then that so many JS-1s are so close to the EB's speed then on Day 2, with one faster.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> Strange then that so many JS-1s are so close to the EB's speed then on Day 2, with one faster.

Or maybe not so strange. Blue day, I hear. Most impressed by the 15 meter crowd. All but three started in a 4 minute window! 18 meter was almost as good. Open looks to have been two packs.

As Hank said about Day One, "Day Two was about not doing anything stupid." Why lead out and not have markers? From the data on the scoresheet, Riccardo did it right. Started just far enough behind the first group that he was able to catch them. Micheal and Tassilo were first out in the second pack and stayed there. Caught some of the first pack.

Just my observation.

Steve Leonard

[[email protected]]

It might not be that much of a contradiction - especially if we interpret a gliding competition in essence as an opportunity-risk balancing game. If we assume for a moment that krsaw's observation regarding an advantage of the EB29R is directionally correct, it could well be that comrades Sommer & Bode are using a potential performace edge in their gliders to achieve consistent good scoring results while keeping their risk limited (that is also the implication of the most recent youtube interview with Michael Sommer where he argues that a key benefit of team flying for him is to avoid mistakes), instead of trying to use a potential glider performace advantage to always outpace anybody else. If one follows that perspective, it should be no surprise that other top pilots in the numerous and still excellent JS1cs on any given day are achieving similiar or even better speeds than the two EB29R - but potentially at a slightly higher individual risk and a higher volatility in individual results.

Just a hypothesis and maybe not worth the used bits/bytes

Marc, S2