Lilium: the world's first 250mph, 300 mile range, electric vertical take off and landing jet

[Larry Dighera]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZbWsgAIc_c
Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet

Published on May 8, 2016

The egg-shaped plane, called Lilium, has been heralded as high up as the
European Space Agency (ESA)
The plane, designed by four German engineers, takes off and lands vertically,
meaning it can use helipads
Lilium has a top speed of 250mph, a range of 300 miles and only requires 50
feet by 50 feet of space


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3579328

Flying in the city? The first electric vertical take-off and landing jet. BMW
Welcomes

Is this the future of private jets? The world's first electric vertical
take-off and landing plane that you can fly out of your back garden

The egg-shaped plane, called Lilium, has been heralded as high up as the
European Space Agency (ESA)
The plane, designed by four German engineers, takes off and lands
vertically, meaning it can use helipads
Lilium has a top speed of 250mph, a range of 300 miles and only requires 50
feet by 50 feet of space

By John Hutchinson for MailOnline

Published: 05:49 EST, 8 May 2016 | Updated: 07:45 EST, 8 May 2016

Private jet flying could change forever as the world's first electric vertical
takeoff and landing aircraft is about to hit the market.

The egg-shaped plane, called Lilium, has been heralded as high up as the
European Space Agency (ESA), who highlight its environmental benefits as well
as not needing to land at an airport.

The plane takes off and lands vertically, meaning it can use helipads. The
aircraft, designed in Germany, has a top speed of 250mph and a range of 300
miles.

Private jet flying could change forever as the world's first electric vertical
takeoff and landing aircraft is about to hit the market

The plane is designed to be able to be flown in good weather conditions in
uncongested airspace in the daylight

The egg-shaped plane, called Lilium, has been heralded as high up as the
European Space Agency (ESA)

In a release sent out from the ESA, Lilium co-owner Daniel Wiegand said: 'Our
goal is to develop an aircraft for use in everyday life.

'We are going for a plane that can take off and land vertically and does not
need the complex and expensive infrastructure of an airport.

'To reduce noise and pollution, we are using electric engines so it can also be
used close to urban areas.'
RELATED ARTICLES

The electric jet is set to be available to buy in 2018, although at the time of
writing, there is no indication of how much the futuristic plane will cost.

The plane has been designed with environmental targets in mind. As well as
being electric meaning there are less emissions, the plane will be a lot
quieter than the traditional private jet as it uses ducted fan engines.

The environmental benefits of Lilium have been heralded, as well as the fact
that it does not need to land at an airport

The plane takes off and lands vertically, meaning it can use helipads. The
aircraft has a top speed of 250mph and a range of 300 miles
THE VITAL STATISTICS

Take-off and landing - Vertically

Steering -Easy to fly (Fully computer-assisted control system)

Number of passengers -2

Max. take-off weight - 600 kg

Cruising velocity - 180 mph

Max. velocity 250 mph

Range - 300 mi

Power - 435 hp

The ESA state that although the aircraft will primarily be using airfields for
landing and take-off, 'the goal is for it to take off vertically from almost
anywhere – even from back gardens.'

A pilot's licence stipulating at least 20 hours of training is needing to guide
the two-seater plane, that fits into the Light Sports Aircraft category.

A point to note is that the aircraft is designed for flying in daylight, where
the weather conditions are 'good.'

A description of the private jet on the designers's website reads: 'Elegance,
speed, comfort and sustainability – fusing to a new form of traveling, defining
a completely new form of freedom.'

Due to its smaller size, it will not have to fit into airport scheduling to
land and take off.

The project, run by four Munich University graduates, began in 2015 with
several prototypes based on a similar model.

This, however is the group's first vertical take-off and landing aircraft.

Popular Science says that 'the whole plane should fit comfortably in an area 50
feet by 50 feet, or roughly the same area as a modest helipad.'

Lilium has been designed by German engineers Daniel Wiegand, Patrick Nathen,
Sebastian Born and Matthias Meiner.

It is even believed the plane will be able to fly out of the owner's back
garden such is the small amount of space it needs to take off
Read more:

Personal aircraft aiming to take off from your home / TTP2 / Space
Engineering & Technology / Our Activities / ESA
<http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Engineering_Technology/TTP2/Personal_aircraft_aiming_to_take_off_from_your_hom e>

http://www.popsci.com/lillium-wants-to-be-private-plane-quieter-future

Lillium: The Private VTOL Plane Of A Quieter Future

The Jetsons? No, they're our loud neighbors. We're the Ducted Fandersens.
By Kelsey D. Atherton May 6, 2016
Lillium Concept Plane

European Space Agency

Lillium Concept Plane

Vertical takeoff and landing, too

The European Space Agency is incubating a new kind of aircraft. Revealed today,
the glossy, white, egg-like form of the craft resembles nothing so much as an
airplane designed by Apple. The planned two-seater will be all-electric, built
for personal use, and, thanks to pivoting engines, it can take off from
helipads instead of runways.

Dubbed Lillium, the craft when built is expected to travel at around 250 mph,
faster than most helicopters but well below the speeds of private jets. The
whole plane should fit comfortably in an area 50 feet by 50 feet, or roughly
the same area as a modest helipad. It will also take part in a modern, quieter
revolution in aircraft design: planes designed with noise reduction in mind.

From the European Space Agency:

Entirely electric, the plane is much quieter during takeoff than
helicopters thanks to its ducted fan engines. Its batteries, engines and
controllers are redundant, making it a much safer design than conventional
helicopters. The plane is classed as a Light Sport Aircraft for two occupants,
with the pilot’s licence requiring 20 hours’ minimum training – almost like
taking a driving licence.
It is intended for recreational flying during daylight, in good weather
conditions and in uncongested airspace up to 3 km altitude.

Watch a short clip of the concept below:
[Click for video]
Tags:

airplanes vtol ducted fans ESA European Space Agency concepts gifs Video
lillium Aviation

Editors' Picks

[Vaughn Simon[_2_]]

On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet

Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
flown. (No evidence of that in the links)

As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
definitely not both.

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

> A pilot's licence stipulating at least 20 hours of training is needing to guide
> the two-seater plane, that fits into the Light Sports Aircraft category.

Not with a cruise speed of 180 mph.


--
Jim Pennino

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:

>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>
>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>
>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>definitely not both.


Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
mendacity of Trump. :-)

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>
>>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>>
>>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>>
>>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>>definitely not both.
>
>
> Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
> mendacity of Trump. :-)

My take was it was written by someone that does not know much about aviation.

--
Jim Pennino

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:11:04 -0000, wrote:

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>>>
>>>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>>>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>>>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>>>
>>>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>>>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>>>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>>>definitely not both.
>>
>>
>> Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
>> mendacity of Trump. :-)
>
>My take was it was written by someone that does not know much about aviation.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:11:04 -0000, wrote:

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>>>
>>>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>>>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>>>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>>>
>>>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>>>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>>>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>>>definitely not both.
>>
>>
>> Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
>> mendacity of Trump. :-)
>
>My take was it was written by someone that does not know much about aviation.

"Lilium has been designed by German engineers Daniel Wiegand, Patrick Nathen,
Sebastian Born and Matthias Meiner."

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:11:04 -0000, wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>>>>
>>>>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>>>>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>>>>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>>>>
>>>>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>>>>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>>>>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>>>>definitely not both.
>>>
>>>
>>> Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
>>> mendacity of Trump. :-)
>>
>>My take was it was written by someone that does not know much about aviation.
>
> "Lilium has been designed by German engineers Daniel Wiegand, Patrick Nathen,
> Sebastian Born and Matthias Meiner."

Are you saying the silly press release was written by the design engineers?



--
Jim Pennino

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 16:35:14 -0000, wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:11:04 -0000, wrote:
>>>
>>>>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:40:30 -0500, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 12/9/2016 5:27 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>>>>> Lilium: the world's first electric vertical take off and landing jet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Even if it were the world's first VTOL electric "jet" (which is isn't)
>>>>>>you can't make that claim until the plane has actually been built and
>>>>>>flown. (No evidence of that in the links)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As for the 250 MPH speed and 300 mile range claims, given today's
>>>>>>technology I call "bull****". At best, you MIGHT be able to build a
>>>>>>plane that would be sufficiently optimized to give you one of the above,
>>>>>>definitely not both.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the GOPesque puffery, the Lilium's marketing is consistent with the
>>>>> mendacity of Trump. :-)
>>>>
>>>>My take was it was written by someone that does not know much about aviation.
>>>
>>> "Lilium has been designed by German engineers Daniel Wiegand, Patrick Nathen,
>>> Sebastian Born and Matthias Meiner."
>>
>>Are you saying the silly press release was written by the design engineers?
>>
>
> It would appear that the European Space Agency is touting the same
> specifications:

Again, are you saying the silly press release was written by the design
engineers?

<snip crap?

> ?We are going for a plane that can take off and land vertically and does not
> need the complex and expensive infrastructure of an airport.

The "complex and expensive infrastructure" for general aviation aircraft
is a few thousand feet of fairly level dirt with pavement optional.

> ?To reduce noise and pollution, we are using electric engines so it can also be
> used close to urban areas.?

Conventional aircraft are used close to urban areas.

> Today, general public aviation offers fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.
> Conventional aircraft are efficient, fast and available in many sizes but
> require airports often 20?50 km from city centres because of their space-hungry
> runways and the high noise levels.

Arm waving nonsense.

> Airports are expensive bottlenecks for transportation. This is especially so
> for short-haul flights, where travel time to and from airports can easily
> double the duration of a trip. This is not a problem for helicopters, which can
> take off almost anywhere and are therefore often used for short shuttle flights
> and special applications.

Maybe in some parts of anti-aviation Europe, but all of Europe isn't that
big to begin with.

> However, helicopters are very noisy and difficult to fly ? which requires
> expensive licences. They also have no backup in case of rotor failure, making
> them expensive to build and maintain.

Ever heard of autorotation?

Yeah, I guess for some people helicopeters would be difficult to fly.

> The Lilium vehicle combines the benefits of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft
> while avoiding their drawbacks. While initially restricted to airfields, the
> goal is for it to take off vertically from almost anywhere ? even from back
> gardens ? it needs only an open flat area of about 15x15 m.

Which would be a huge yard in most European cities.

<snip>

> Entirely electric, the plane is much quieter during takeoff than helicopters
> thanks to its ducted fan engines. Its batteries, engines and controllers are
> redundant, making it a much safer design than conventional helicopters.

The sound of air driven by 435 hp in VTOL operations is NOT going to
be a whisper.

> The plane is classed as a Light Sport Aircraft for two occupants, with the
> pilot?s licence requiring 20 hours? minimum training ? almost like taking a
> driving licence.

Where does a 435 hp, 190 mph restractable aircraft fit into the Light
Sport catagory in any country?

<snip>

> Using computer control for vertical takeoff and landing is essential for a
> vehicle targeted at the consumer market for personal transportation.

Using computer control for vertical takeoff and landing is essential for
any practical aircraft like this.

> Highly efficient in its cruising mode, the vehicle will have a range of 500 km.

How much range does VTOL operations eat up?

> It features a touchscreen and fly-by-wire joystick controls, retractable
> landing gear, wing doors, large storage, panoramic windows, and a battery that
> can be recharged from any wall plug.
> Ducted fans on wings

Not many wall plugs available at any airport I've been to for transient
aircraft. How long to recharge?

> Satnav is crucial to the high degree of automation and wind compensation during
> takeoff and landing.

Meaning it is unstable as hell without the computer as one would expect.

<snip>

> The retail cost will be far less than similar-sized aircraft of today and with
> much lower running costs.

Sure it will; ever heard of the Skycacther?

I'm betting well over $200k as a certified aircraft.

> ?With the concept of taking off and landing almost everywhere, we could see
> that one day our plane will be used for quick and daily transportation almost
> like a car today.?

Utter fantasy; the NIMBY's of the world would never allow it.

<snip>

> Perhaps the it's the efficiency of the ducted fan engines of the Lilium
> aircraft that enable the performance? Voodoo?

Or pixie dust.

<snip>

> photo-lilium-jet-prototype_web

No matter how many times they call it a jet, it is not a jet.

> Investment positions Lilium to lead the sustainable transport revolution.

The magic word "sustainable" always comes up in snake oil sales pitches.

> The investment will help bring to market the Lilium Jet,

It is still not a jet.

a lightweight commuter
> aircraft capable of carrying passengers into the heart of towns and cities
> without the extensive airport infrastructure required by traditional planes or
> the noise associated with helicopters.

Just a huge investment in helipads on top of buildings.

> It also brings one step closer the possibility of environmentally-sustainable
> air travel transforming existing urban congestion and enabling people to move
> around more safely and efficiently.

How heart warming.

> Flight testing of the first full size Lilium Jet

It is still not a jet.

<snip>

> to design the best possible means of transportation for the 21st century. With
> our technology we can triple the radius of people?s lives

Nonsense.

People don't go farther than they have to.

<snip repetitive arm waving and dreaming>


--
Jim Pennino

[george152]

The bit that I don't get is the jet claim.
And helicopters difficult to fly ?????
Really....
And the claimed airspeed --- in a helicopter ?????
Reminds me of the 'plane in every garage' 30's mantra...
And look how successful that wasn't

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:50:25 -0000, wrote:

>Again, are you saying the silly press release was written by the design
>engineers?

Here's the performance statement from the engineers:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://lilium-aviation.com/about.html

Lilium Aviation
about the vision

What if the way you thought about distances radically changed?
Imagine, you could have breakfast in Munich, go shopping in Milano and enjoy
dinner in Marseille.

Imagine being able to bypass lines, jams, cancellations, and distances easily
and fast.

Imagine environmental pollution no longer being a concern because all
transportation is electric.

Imagine being safer than you’ve ever been in a vehicle.
Imagine the freedom, the elegance, and the fun.

In the future there will be a completely new way of commuting. People will move
to rural areas while working in big cities, because long distances can be
covered in a fraction of the traditional time. The aggressive rise of rent in
city centers will be halted. Federal states will become metropolises.

Concrete-covered landscapes will become green again; the costly maintenance of
our current infrastructure will become obsolete. Commuters will use VTOL
aircrafts to land directly on landing pads extending from their balconies, on
rooftops and assigned landing areas. No need to wait for the bus, no need to
conform with plane and train schedules. Go wherever you want, whenever you want
- take the Lilium Jet! We are building it.

about the product
Take-off and landing: Vertically
Number of passengers: 2
Number of electric fan engines: 36
Max. take-off weight: 600 kg
Payload: 200 kg
Estimated cruising velocity: 250 - 300 km/h / 160 - 190 mph
Estimated range: 300 km / 190 mi
Power: 320 kW / 435 hp

About the team

Founded in February 2015 by four visionary aerospace engineers and product
designers from the Technical University of Munich, Lilium is now a thriving
start up driven by the passion to revolutionize personal transportation.

Financially secure thanks to reputable investors and supported by the European
Space Agency (ESA), Lilium has flourished into a team of more than 35
world-class engineers, designers and pioneers. At Lilium, we are active
pioneers of tomorrow´s technology. We excel at innovation and strive for
perfection. And we want to be the first and the best in electric VTOL aviation.

Funding and supporting partners
BIC
Climate-KIC
U-TUM
Contact Lilium

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
================================================== ===========================

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:22:51 +1300, george152 > wrote:

>The bit that I don't get is the jet claim.
>And helicopters difficult to fly ?????
>Really....
>And the claimed airspeed --- in a helicopter ?????
>Reminds me of the 'plane in every garage' 30's mantra...
>And look how successful that wasn't


It reminds me of the Moller Skycar M400: http://www.moller.com/
Video: https://youtu.be/FY85eExk7Zo
https://youtu.be/gOR_SzLW2Ns

Six air-cars: https://youtu.be/WygPLO_-8-8

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:50:25 -0000, wrote:
>
>>Again, are you saying the silly press release was written by the design
>>engineers?
>
> Here's the performance statement from the engineers:

That is wonderful but misses the point and ignores what I said.

It is the language of the press release that is silly.

It is full of arm waving, speculation, innuendo, half truths, and flat
out lies.

<snip silly prose now repeated several times>

> - take the Lilium Jet! We are building it.

It is NOT a jet.

> about the product
> Take-off and landing: Vertically
> Number of passengers: 2
> Number of electric fan engines: 36
> Max. take-off weight: 600 kg
> Payload: 200 kg
> Estimated cruising velocity: 250 - 300 km/h / 160 - 190 mph
> Estimated range: 300 km / 190 mi
> Power: 320 kW / 435 hp

Whoopee!!

<snip more silly prose now repeated several times>

--
Jim Pennino

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar > wrote:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
>
>Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
>runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
>group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
>and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
>requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

Here's another innovator discussing a VTOL supersonic electric "jet":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjdYiwoYAo

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar > wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
>>> Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
>>
>>Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
>>runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
>>group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
>>and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
>>requirements. Looks like a second attempt.
>
> Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
> of the videos on their web site.
>
> Their latest )Dec 2016) video is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
> use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
> designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.
>
> Here's another innovator discussing a VTOL supersonic electric "jet":
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjdYiwoYAo

Who would like to fly in an airplane designed by someone ignorant of
basic aviation terminology?


--
Jim Pennino

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar > wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
>>> Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
>>
>>Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
>>runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
>>group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
>>and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
>>requirements. Looks like a second attempt.
>
> Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
> of the videos on their web site.
>
> Their latest )Dec 2016) video is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
> use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
> designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
that make it a cow?

The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
infrastructure.

As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.

As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
would be new infrastructure.


--
Jim Pennino

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:39:55 -0000, wrote:

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar > wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
>>>
>>>Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
>>>runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
>>>group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
>>>and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
>>>requirements. Looks like a second attempt.
>>
>> Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
>> of the videos on their web site.
>>
>> Their latest )Dec 2016) video is here:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
>> use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
>> designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.
>
>There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
>that make it a cow?
>

What is your definition of a jet?

Was the Nazi V1 powered by a jet engine?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jet?s=t
jet
noun
1.
a stream of a liquid, gas, or small solid particles forcefully shooting
forth from a nozzle, orifice, etc.
2.
something that issues in such a stream, as water or gas.
3.
a spout or nozzle for emitting liquid or gas:
a gas jet.
-------------

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jet-engine
jet engine
noun
1.
an engine, as an aircraft engine, that produces forward motion by the
rearward exhaust of a jet of fluid or heated air and gases.
-------------

There's a clue here:
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=2712
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011181947/http://ewh.ieee.org/tc/csc/europe/newsforum/pdf/LuongoC_2AP01.pdf

Of course, there's always the possible issue of language (mis)translation...

>
>The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
>infrastructure.
>
>As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.
>

Granted the elimination of automobiles is a fanciful notion in Los Angeles, but
in Europe, perhaps not so much.

>
>As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
>would be new infrastructure.
>

It's difficult to argue against your opinion. However, a flat spot need not
have lighting, radio aids to navigation, paving, structures, etc, so it could
be very minimal infrastructure compared to an FAA certified airport or
heliport.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the Lilium marketing puffery, and am
indeed skeptical of the performance claims. Given the information below, the
most difficult claim for me to swallow, is a 435 HP FAA certified Light Sport
Aircraft. Perhaps there is a European class to which the Lilium may reasonably
be expected to conform, or such a revolutionary design may warrant creation of
an entirely class. After all, regulations shouldn't stifle innovation, but
provide safe and orderly rules so it may flourish.

At any rate, the Lilium project has generated significant venture capital, but
until a full-sized aircraft flies, and empirically substantiates the claimed
performance figures, the Lilium just another Molleresque vaporware dream,
IMNSHO. But where would technology be without its dreamers who's visionary
pursuits have led to radical improvements in the human condition?



================================================== ===========================
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/light-sport-aircraft/getting-started-in-light-sport-aircraft-flying/become-a-sport-pilot-and-fly-light-sport-aircraft/faa-sport-pilot-rule
FAA SPORT PILOT RULE
This is a synopsis of the definition of a light sport aircraft category, the
requirements to obtain a sport pilot certificate, and requirements to obtain a
repairman certificate with a maintenance or inspection rating. View the
complete FAA regulation

The Light Sport Aircraft Rule:
The FAA defines a light sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter
or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet
the following:

Max. Gross Takeoff Weight: 1,320 lbs (1,430 lbs for seaplanes)

Max. Stall Speed: 51 mph / 45 knots CAS

Max. Speed in Level Flight (VH): 138 mph / 120 knots CAS

Seats: Two (max.)

Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)

Propeller: Fixed-pitch or ground adjustable

Cabin: Unpressurized

Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)

In addition, light sport aircraft:

Can be manufactured and sold ready-to-fly under a new Special Light Sport
Aircraft certification category. Aircraft must meet industry consensus
standards. Aircraft under this certification may be used for sport and
recreation, flight training, and aircraft rental.

Can be licensed Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) if kit- or
plans-built. Aircraft under this certification may be used only for sport and
recreation and flight instruction for the owner of the aircraft.

Can be licensed Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) if the aircraft has
previously been operated as an ultralight but does not meet the FAR Part 103
definition of an ultralight vehicle. These aircraft must have been transitioned
to E-LSA category no later than January 31, 2008.

Will have a standard FAA registration - N-number.
Category and class includes: Airplane (Land/Sea), Gyroplane, Airship, Balloon,
Weight-Shift-Control ("Trike", Land/Sea), Glider, and Powered Parachute.

U.S. or foreign manufacture of light sport aircraft is authorized.
Aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate that meet above
specifications may be flown by sport pilots. However, the aircraft must remain
in standard category and cannot be changed to light sport aircraft category.
May be operated at night if the aircraft is equipped per FAR 91.205, if such
operations are allowed by the aircraft's operating limitations and the pilot
holds at least a Private Pilot certificate and a minimum of a third-class
medical.
================================================== ==============

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:39:55 -0000, wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
>>>>
>>>>Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
>>>>runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
>>>>group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
>>>>and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
>>>>requirements. Looks like a second attempt.
>>>
>>> Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
>>> of the videos on their web site.
>>>
>>> Their latest )Dec 2016) video is here:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
>>> use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
>>> designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.
>>
>>There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
>>that make it a cow?
>>
>
> What is your definition of a jet?

An internal combustion airbreathing engine that produces thrust via
exhaust gases, like most people.

> Was the Nazi V1 powered by a jet engine?

A ramjet, a subset of jet engines.

<snip>

> Of course, there's always the possible issue of language (mis)translation...

When the speaker is speaking English?

>
>>
>>The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
>>infrastructure.
>>
>>As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.
>>
>
> Granted the elimination of automobiles is a fanciful notion in Los Angeles, but
> in Europe, perhaps not so much.

More so in Europe.

Land is at a premium in most of Europe and this thing takes about 3 times
the area of a car to park plus a much wider taxi way to get from the
heliport to the parking area.

>>
>>As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
>>would be new infrastructure.
>>
>
> It's difficult to argue against your opinion. However, a flat spot need not
> have lighting, radio aids to navigation, paving, structures, etc, so it could
> be very minimal infrastructure compared to an FAA certified airport or
> heliport.

First, do you really think the FAA or any other aviation governing
agency in the world is going to allow these things to land and take off
just anywhere?

Look around you as you drive around; how many places would have the land
required to provide a heliport, taxi ways, and parking areas for these
things even it were just dirt?

> Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the Lilium marketing puffery, and am
> indeed skeptical of the performance claims. Given the information below, the
> most difficult claim for me to swallow, is a 435 HP FAA certified Light Sport
> Aircraft. Perhaps there is a European class to which the Lilium may reasonably
> be expected to conform, or such a revolutionary design may warrant creation of
> an entirely class. After all, regulations shouldn't stifle innovation, but
> provide safe and orderly rules so it may flourish.

There is already a class of aircraft that covers the Lilium; it is the
same class as the Osprey.

You are overlooking the fact that it is a retractable and supposedly
goes 190 mph and both take it out of the Light Sport class.

> At any rate, the Lilium project has generated significant venture capital, but
> until a full-sized aircraft flies, and empirically substantiates the claimed
> performance figures, the Lilium just another Molleresque vaporware dream,
> IMNSHO. But where would technology be without its dreamers who's visionary
> pursuits have led to radical improvements in the human condition?

I would feel better that the thing had a snowball's chance in Hell of
success if the press releases weren't full of outright falsehoods, arm
waving, and wild ass speculation.

<snip>

> FAA SPORT PILOT RULE

<snip>

> Max. Speed in Level Flight (VH): 138 mph / 120 knots CAS

Fails here.

> Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)

Fails here.

<snip>

> Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)

Fails here.

<snip remainder of irrelevant stuff>


--
Jim Pennino