Ilec SN 10 or LX 7000

[Dave Kuchenbecker]

Anyone have experience with both systems that can give me some feed
back on features, ease of installation and ease of use in flight.

Thanks

Dave

[Marcel Duenner]

(Dave Kuchenbecker) wrote in message >...
> Anyone have experience with both systems that can give me some feed
> back on features, ease of installation and ease of use in flight.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave

Have not flown with an LX7000 yet, flew for about 50 hours with a
LX5000 and own a LX20. Have a few 100 hours on SN10.

Advantages of the LX over Ilec:
- available as FAI certified logger, with Ilec it's always an add-on
solution.
- The multi-functional round display is excellent. (Dave N.: when will
Ilec have one available?) It means you can move around on different
pages and still have a lot of vario related info available.
- main nav infos (ground speed, bearing, track, distance) on the
moving map page (Ilec has no numbers on moving map page)
- easier to learn and get used to in the beginning due to less and
better organised pages.

Advantages of Ilec SN10 over LX:
- probably better/faster vario
- best and fastest wind estimation of any instrument I know (judged on
in-flight comparison over radio)
- new display of the SN10B ist excellent
- by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks. You
simlpy add the next TPs you want to the list and go for it and the
Instrument will tell you your Expected Time to Finish at the current
MC-setting as opposed to LX where you have to 1) write down all the
TPs you visited and 2) guess (=input) your average speed till finish
to get the time around max. 1 TP. Can someone please correct me on
this point since it might have changed from the LX5000/LX20 to the
LX7000.
- easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks

Dunno about prices, depends on where you live and what setup you want
(FAI or no)

Regards
Marcel

[Marcel Duenner]

(Marcel Duenner) wrote in message >...
> (Dave Kuchenbecker) wrote in message >...
> > Anyone have experience with both systems that can give me some feed
> > back on features, ease of installation and ease of use in flight.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave
>
> Have not flown with an LX7000 yet, flew for about 50 hours with a
> LX5000 and own a LX20. Have a few 100 hours on SN10.
>
> Advantages of the LX over Ilec:
> - available as FAI certified logger, with Ilec it's always an add-on
> solution.
> - The multi-functional round display is excellent. (Dave N.: when will
> Ilec have one available?) It means you can move around on different
> pages and still have a lot of vario related info available.
> - main nav infos (ground speed, bearing, track, distance) on the
> moving map page (Ilec has no numbers on moving map page)
> - easier to learn and get used to in the beginning due to less and
> better organised pages.
>
> Advantages of Ilec SN10 over LX:
> - probably better/faster vario
> - best and fastest wind estimation of any instrument I know (judged on
> in-flight comparison over radio)
> - new display of the SN10B ist excellent
> - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks. You
> simlpy add the next TPs you want to the list and go for it and the
> Instrument will tell you your Expected Time to Finish at the current
> MC-setting as opposed to LX where you have to 1) write down all the
> TPs you visited and 2) guess (=input) your average speed till finish
> to get the time around max. 1 TP. Can someone please correct me on
> this point since it might have changed from the LX5000/LX20 to the
> LX7000.
> - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
>
> Dunno about prices, depends on where you live and what setup you want
> (FAI or no)
>
> Regards
> Marcel


Just remembered a thread on gliderforum.com on "Best Flight Computer"
where I wrote:

Main disadvantages of the LX5000 are: you need a portable computer to
download flights and after sales service by Filser is generally crap.
Depends on your local dealer, though.

Main disadvantage of the SN10 is a flaw in the concept regarding
database management. If you always fly in the same area you probably
won't even notice. But it is a bit annoying for flying comps in
different areas. The problem is that the waypoints are in the same
file as the airspace and airports. So you have to fiddle around in a
text editor and add the airspace before you can upload your comp
waypoints to the instrument. I don'l like messing around in databases.

[Andrej Kolar]

Hi Marcel,

I'll disagree with you on these points:
> - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks.
> - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks

LX 7000 has everything you need for the Area tasks. Flew against you in
Leszno without a Pocket PC in cockpit, just LX 7000. It's all there:
.. Waypoints can be moved free inside areas
.. When moving, there is a figure telling you the remaining distance and
speed you need to fly until finish
.. Statistics for the "moved" task and each leg
There's more but these are the main points. All this is new to LX 7000 and
not available in 5000.

Haven't flown Area tasks with SN10, but have about 80 hours cross-country
with one and It's a very good vario/computer as well. I'll agree with you on
what's left in the pro/cons of both computers.

Regards,
Andrej Kolar

"Marcel Duenner" > wrote in message
om...
> (Dave Kuchenbecker) wrote in message
>...
> > Anyone have experience with both systems that can give me some feed
> > back on features, ease of installation and ease of use in flight.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave
>
> Have not flown with an LX7000 yet, flew for about 50 hours with a
> LX5000 and own a LX20. Have a few 100 hours on SN10.
>
> Advantages of the LX over Ilec:
> - available as FAI certified logger, with Ilec it's always an add-on
> solution.
> - The multi-functional round display is excellent. (Dave N.: when will
> Ilec have one available?) It means you can move around on different
> pages and still have a lot of vario related info available.
> - main nav infos (ground speed, bearing, track, distance) on the
> moving map page (Ilec has no numbers on moving map page)
> - easier to learn and get used to in the beginning due to less and
> better organised pages.
>
> Advantages of Ilec SN10 over LX:
> - probably better/faster vario
> - best and fastest wind estimation of any instrument I know (judged on
> in-flight comparison over radio)
> - new display of the SN10B ist excellent
> - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks. You
> simlpy add the next TPs you want to the list and go for it and the
> Instrument will tell you your Expected Time to Finish at the current
> MC-setting as opposed to LX where you have to 1) write down all the
> TPs you visited and 2) guess (=input) your average speed till finish
> to get the time around max. 1 TP. Can someone please correct me on
> this point since it might have changed from the LX5000/LX20 to the
> LX7000.
> - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
>
> Dunno about prices, depends on where you live and what setup you want
> (FAI or no)
>
> Regards
> Marcel

[Marcel Duenner]

"Andrej Kolar" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Marcel,
>
> I'll disagree with you on these points:
> > - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks.
> > - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
>
> LX 7000 has everything you need for the Area tasks. Flew against you in
> Leszno without a Pocket PC in cockpit, just LX 7000.


Oh, and I thought I was the only one left without a PDA... :-)

As I mentioned, I don't know the details of improvement the LX7000 has over 5000.

Regards
Marcel

[Adnan H. Mirza]

Hi guys,

Can either of you elaborate on how the SN 10 estimates wind speed?
I've heard that it's pretty good and fast for this. Does it have a
built in mag compass?

Thanks



"Andrej Kolar" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Marcel,
>
> I'll disagree with you on these points:
> > - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks.
> > - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
>
> LX 7000 has everything you need for the Area tasks. Flew against you in
> Leszno without a Pocket PC in cockpit, just LX 7000. It's all there:
> . Waypoints can be moved free inside areas
> . When moving, there is a figure telling you the remaining distance and
> speed you need to fly until finish
> . Statistics for the "moved" task and each leg
> There's more but these are the main points. All this is new to LX 7000 and
> not available in 5000.
>
> Haven't flown Area tasks with SN10, but have about 80 hours cross-country
> with one and It's a very good vario/computer as well. I'll agree with you on
> what's left in the pro/cons of both computers.
>
> Regards,
> Andrej Kolar
>
> "Marcel Duenner" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Dave Kuchenbecker) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Anyone have experience with both systems that can give me some feed
> > > back on features, ease of installation and ease of use in flight.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > Have not flown with an LX7000 yet, flew for about 50 hours with a
> > LX5000 and own a LX20. Have a few 100 hours on SN10.
> >
> > Advantages of the LX over Ilec:
> > - available as FAI certified logger, with Ilec it's always an add-on
> > solution.
> > - The multi-functional round display is excellent. (Dave N.: when will
> > Ilec have one available?) It means you can move around on different
> > pages and still have a lot of vario related info available.
> > - main nav infos (ground speed, bearing, track, distance) on the
> > moving map page (Ilec has no numbers on moving map page)
> > - easier to learn and get used to in the beginning due to less and
> > better organised pages.
> >
> > Advantages of Ilec SN10 over LX:
> > - probably better/faster vario
> > - best and fastest wind estimation of any instrument I know (judged on
> > in-flight comparison over radio)
> > - new display of the SN10B ist excellent
> > - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks. You
> > simlpy add the next TPs you want to the list and go for it and the
> > Instrument will tell you your Expected Time to Finish at the current
> > MC-setting as opposed to LX where you have to 1) write down all the
> > TPs you visited and 2) guess (=input) your average speed till finish
> > to get the time around max. 1 TP. Can someone please correct me on
> > this point since it might have changed from the LX5000/LX20 to the
> > LX7000.
> > - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
> >
> > Dunno about prices, depends on where you live and what setup you want
> > (FAI or no)
> >
> > Regards
> > Marcel

[Andrej Kolar]

I thought I was the only one :)

Here's more about the 7000: http://www.lxnavigation.si/lx7000proigc.htm

Andrej

"Marcel Duenner" > wrote in message
om...
> "Andrej Kolar" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hi Marcel,
> >
> > I'll disagree with you on these points:
> > > - by far superior for cats cradle type tasks and area tasks.
> > > - easier/faster in-flight manipulation of turnpoints for area tasks
> >
> > LX 7000 has everything you need for the Area tasks. Flew against you in
> > Leszno without a Pocket PC in cockpit, just LX 7000.
>
>
> Oh, and I thought I was the only one left without a PDA... :-)
>
> As I mentioned, I don't know the details of improvement the LX7000 has
over 5000.
>
> Regards
> Marcel

[Kirk Stant]

(Adnan H. Mirza) wrote in message >...
> Hi guys,
>
> Can either of you elaborate on how the SN 10 estimates wind speed?
> I've heard that it's pretty good and fast for this. Does it have a
> built in mag compass?
>
> Thanks

I also use an SN10 without a PDA. Instead, I use a Garmin 3 Pilot to
provide the GPS input, and use it's moving map as a navigation backup
(and thermal trace display). It's interesting to compare the visible
drift during thermalling on the Garmin map to the wind arrow on the
SN10 display - they are always in agreement. The Garmin also provides
a fully redundant navigation and rudimentary final glide computer
(even around turnpoints) in case there is a problem with the SN10.

Haven't flown an LX (previous computer was a Westerboer VW921 - good
vario but really complicated to use as a glide computer). Really like
the SN10, especially the custom page.

The trick to using these systems is a bit of database management and
preparation - which is actually pretty easy to do with tools like the
SN10 site manager, SeeYou, and G7toWin. Gives me something to do on
my notebook during business trips!

Kirk
LS6b "66"

[Mike Borgelt]

On 20 Oct 2003 22:53:12 -0700, (Adnan H. Mirza)
wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>Can either of you elaborate on how the SN 10 estimates wind speed?
>I've heard that it's pretty good and fast for this. Does it have a
>built in mag compass?
>
>Thanks
You don't need a magnetic compass to get wind speed and direction.
You have GPS ground track and speed and TASat any given point. If you
do another GPS ground track/speed and TAS at a nearby point but on a
different ground track and make the assumption that the wind has not
changed you have enough information to solve the two wind triangles.
In practice you need set some traps for the odd bad result and do a
little averaging to get a sensible result but 10 seconds or so if the
GPS is coming in at 1 Hz is acceptable. This works even if you aren't
circling but are figure eighting or zig zagging which is why we call
it the zig zag wind in the B2000. You get a good wind estimate in half
a circle or so when thermalling.

You can always get a wind component in the direction you are going by
doing a difference between the TAS and Groundspeed. This is
essentially in real time.

You can see the B2000 manual at our website
www.borgeltinstruments.com

Mike Borgelt

[Bill Daniels]

"Mike Borgelt" > wrote in message
...
> On 20 Oct 2003 22:53:12 -0700, (Adnan H. Mirza)
> wrote:
>
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >Can either of you elaborate on how the SN 10 estimates wind speed?
> >I've heard that it's pretty good and fast for this. Does it have a
> >built in mag compass?
> >
> >Thanks
> You don't need a magnetic compass to get wind speed and direction.
> You have GPS ground track and speed and TASat any given point. If you
> do another GPS ground track/speed and TAS at a nearby point but on a
> different ground track and make the assumption that the wind has not
> changed you have enough information to solve the two wind triangles.
> In practice you need set some traps for the odd bad result and do a
> little averaging to get a sensible result but 10 seconds or so if the
> GPS is coming in at 1 Hz is acceptable. This works even if you aren't
> circling but are figure eighting or zig zagging which is why we call
> it the zig zag wind in the B2000. You get a good wind estimate in half
> a circle or so when thermalling.
>
> You can always get a wind component in the direction you are going by
> doing a difference between the TAS and Groundspeed. This is
> essentially in real time.
>
> You can see the B2000 manual at our website
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>
> Mike Borgelt

Mike, when wave or even ridge flying an accurate winds aloft readout would
be very helpful. Under these conditions I find that long periods may go by
with little change in heading. There are certainly times that I wouldn't
want to zig zag just to get a wind estimate even though wind information
would be very interesting.

Just how hard would it be to get accurate heading information? Are there
heading sensors available that would do a reasonable job?

BTW, I do read your web site and find it very interesting. (Changing the
font on the articles to Ariel would make them more readable on computer
screens, however.)

Bill Daniels

[Robert Ehrlich]

Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> "Mike Borgelt" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> BTW, I do read your web site and find it very interesting. (Changing the
> font on the articles to Ariel would make them more readable on computer
> screens, however.)
> ...

No, please don't do that. Arial is not available on most non Microsoft
sytems.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:01:48 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> wrote:

>Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>> "Mike Borgelt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> ...
>> BTW, I do read your web site and find it very interesting. (Changing the
>> font on the articles to Ariel would make them more readable on computer
>> screens, however.)
>> ...
>
>No, please don't do that. Arial is not available on most non Microsoft
>sytems.

That's easy: set the font to a list, say

<font face="Arial, Futura, Franklin Gothic, Times Roman">

will let the page display in the first font installed on the system,
searching from left to right. however, please note:

- Arial *is* available to Opera running under RedHat Linux 7.2
- IMO its rude to specify *any* typeface or size on a web page [1].

HTH

[1] Many users have changed the default font in their browser (mine
all use Arial by default). The user may have a good reason, e.g. being
partially sighted and setting their browser to use a large, blocky,
bold typeface so that can read web pages more easily. Respect your
visitors choice and don't force them to use some font just because you
think its cute.
--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Jack Glendening]

My two cents: the issue is primarily one of serif vs non-serif fonts -
while serif fonts have a reputation for being easier to read for typeset
material (and hence used in books, newspapers, etc), for the coarser
resolution available on computer screens most people find non-serif
fonts more more readible. Setting FACE="non-serif" selects a _family_
of fonts rather than a specific font and lets the browser choose from
those installed locally, MS or non-MS. (In CSS this would be "body {
font-family: sans-serif; }". That being said, I think that many browser
make appropriate adjustments, e.g. I notice that if "Arial" is specified
for a page my Mozilla browser displays a non-serif font but I don't
think it's Arial..


Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:01:48 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> > wrote:
>>Bill Daniels wrote:
>>>"Mike Borgelt" > wrote in message
...
>>>BTW, I do read your web site and find it very interesting. (Changing the
>>>font on the articles to Ariel would make them more readable on computer
>>>screens, however.)
>>No, please don't do that. Arial is not available on most non Microsoft
>>sytems.
>
> That's easy: set the font to a list, say
> <font face="Arial, Futura, Franklin Gothic, Times Roman">
> will let the page display in the first font installed on the system,
> searching from left to right. however, please note:
> - Arial *is* available to Opera running under RedHat Linux 7.2
> - IMO its rude to specify *any* typeface or size on a web page [1].