ASK21 vs G103

[solo89]

In a few weeks I'll take my check ride in an ASK21. All of my training
to date has been in a G103.

The examiner told me the ASK is a lot like the Grob just better.

any advice?

I'm a little concerned about taking my check ride in a glider I've
never seen, but not overly concerned. The performance looks pretty
similar and they're both fixed gear ships. So I'm thinkin' "no big
deal".

Doug

[Eggert Ehmke]

solo89 wrote:

> In a few weeks I'll take my check ride in an ASK21. All of my training
> to date has been in a G103.
>
> The examiner told me the ASK is a lot like the Grob just better.
>
> any advice?

we use both for basic training, and they are comparable. The ASK21 is even
better in rudder/aileron harmony. When it comes to performance, the Grob
may have one or two points, but this is not relevant for the check flight.
Did you train on a a Twin I (Twin Astir) or a Twin III ? The Twin I is a
taildragger, the Twin II/III has a nose wheel, as the ASK21, so the landing
characteristic is the same. You will have no problems.
Eggert

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:58:58 +0200, Eggert Ehmke
> wrote:

>solo89 wrote:
>
>> In a few weeks I'll take my check ride in an ASK21. All of my training
>> to date has been in a G103.
>>
>> The examiner told me the ASK is a lot like the Grob just better.
>>
>> any advice?
>
>we use both for basic training, and they are comparable. The ASK21 is even
>better in rudder/aileron harmony. When it comes to performance, the Grob
>may have one or two points, but this is not relevant for the check flight.
>Did you train on a a Twin I (Twin Astir) or a Twin III ? The Twin I is a
>taildragger, the Twin II/III has a nose wheel, as the ASK21, so the landing
>characteristic is the same. You will have no problems.

Agreed. The ASK-21 is more responsive and has a more powerful rudder.
You may find the trim a little disconcerting at first but that will
soon pass. Its by the side of the stick and has nothing comparable to
the Grob's trim housing to act as a reference for the pre take-off
setting.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Eggert Ehmke]

Robert Ehrlich wrote:

> Having recently (August 2003) flown in the same day a Twin I and an ASK21,
> I found the Twin much heavier on the controls. Flying the ASK21 after the
> Twin, I had the feeling of flying a single seater after a two seater. As
> far as I remember from flights in a Twin III (February and September), the
> feeling is much more like the ASK21.
True. There is some difference between TwinI and III, also the airfoil is
different. That's why I asked the OP which one he has trained on. But:
transition Twin I --> ASK no problem, only that the ASK handles better;
transition Twin III --> ASK no problem, almost the same.

To OP again: if you trained on a Twin I, you are used to two-point or
tail-first landings (dont know how they are called correctly in english,
but you will guess). You should do the same with ASK21, but even if you do
a wheel-first landing the plane will react very friendly and sit down on
the front wheel. If you know the Twin III, again it is similar to the ASK.
Eggert

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:55:10 +0100, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:

>You may find the trim a little disconcerting at first but that will
>soon pass. Its by the side of the stick and has nothing comparable to
>the Grob's trim housing to act as a reference for the pre take-off
>setting.

The 21 has a trim setting display on the right side of the cockpit.

Bye
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:12:27 +0200, Andreas Maurer
> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:55:10 +0100, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>>You may find the trim a little disconcerting at first but that will
>>soon pass. Its by the side of the stick and has nothing comparable to
>>the Grob's trim housing to act as a reference for the pre take-off
>>setting.
>
>The 21 has a trim setting display on the right side of the cockpit.
>
Ours doesn't, but then it is pretty old.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:14 +0100, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:


>>The 21 has a trim setting display on the right side of the cockpit.
>>
>Ours doesn't, but then it is pretty old.

What serial no. is it?

Bye
Andreas

[Robert John]

We (London Gliding Club) have a half dozen K21s of
various vintages up to brand new. I think only the
newest have the trim indicator. In my view, one of
the most useless pieces of equipment imaginable.
Feeling the position of the trim lever is easier and
safer.
Rob
At 16:00 17 October 2003, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:14 +0100, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>
>>>The 21 has a trim setting display on the right side
>>>of the cockpit.
>>>
>>Ours doesn't, but then it is pretty old.
>
>What serial no. is it?
>
>Bye
>Andreas
>

[solo89]

Thanks to all for the input.

I've been flying the G103 Twin II Acro. (I guess the Acro is a wasted
distinction these days.) It does indeed sound very similar to the
ASK21.

I'm glad to hear the rudder and ailerons are better balanced. I do
sometimes have trouble with my coordination in the 103.

Just a few more flights and lots of book time between me and the test.

Doug

[Guy Byars]

> We (London Gliding Club) have a half dozen K21s of
> various vintages up to brand new. I think only the
> newest have the trim indicator. In my view, one of
> the most useless pieces of equipment imaginable.
> Feeling the position of the trim lever is easier and
> safer.
> Rob

But it is useful to have that so you can set the trim correctly before
takeoff.

[Andy Durbin]

(solo89) wrote in message >...
> In a few weeks I'll take my check ride in an ASK21. All of my training
> to date has been in a G103.
>
> The examiner told me the ASK is a lot like the Grob just better.
>
> any advice?
>
> I'm a little concerned about taking my check ride in a glider I've
> never seen, but not overly concerned. The performance looks pretty
> similar and they're both fixed gear ships. So I'm thinkin' "no big
> deal".
>
> Doug

Other posters have told you there isn't much difference and it won't
be a problem. They are probably all experienced pilots with many
types flown. I expect that you are not.

Don't take a check ride in a glider you have never flown. Get at least
3 takeoffs and landings in it to give yourself a fair chance on the
checkride.


Andy

[Stefan]

Guy Byars wrote:
>
> But it is useful to have that so you can set the trim correctly before
> takeoff.

Not really. We operate two ASK 21, and frankly, I don't even know
whether they have that indicator or not, although I've learnt to fly in
them! If you know the ASK, then you know the correct position of the
trim lever. If you don't know the ASK, then move the lever full forward
and full backward, and then you know where the middle position is. This
is good enough for takeoff, and once you're airborne, you'll have to
retrim anyway.

Stefan

[BTIZ]

chances are.. if you know the DE or he knows you..

the DE will not be concerned about the differences.. but may evaluate
(though it is not part of the PTS) how quickly you adapt to the ASK-21... if
you learned in a Grob.. then the ASK will be easier..

the DE will be concentrating on your general flying.. procedures and
decision making..

BT

"solo89" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks to all for the input.
>
> I've been flying the G103 Twin II Acro. (I guess the Acro is a wasted
> distinction these days.) It does indeed sound very similar to the
> ASK21.
>
> I'm glad to hear the rudder and ailerons are better balanced. I do
> sometimes have trouble with my coordination in the 103.
>
> Just a few more flights and lots of book time between me and the test.
>
> Doug

[Mark James Boyd]

>> In a few weeks I'll take my check ride in an ASK21. All of my training
>> to date has been in a G103.
>>
>> any advice?
>>
>Other posters have told you there isn't much difference and it won't
>be a problem. They are probably all experienced pilots with many
>types flown. I expect that you are not.
>
>Don't take a check ride in a glider you have never flown. Get at least
>3 takeoffs and landings in it to give yourself a fair chance on the
>checkride.

Checkrides have very little to do with gliders, and everything
to do with the pilot. If flying a different glider makes you even
the slightest bit nervous, yeah, show up an hour early and get a
pattern tow at least.

Heck, I've personally never flown ANY two place aircraft
without flying it at least once with someone who has flown THAT
EXACT aircraft before. And I've hired test pilots three times to
demonstrate and fly single seaters before I flew them (I've flown
exactly three single-seat aircraft).

It only takes one pull of the wrong knob to end up surprised, still on
tow, but without a canopy...

How about asking the DPE? There is no law against his flying with
you for an hour of dual before the checkride. He's not the
one who signed you off, so there'd be no conflict. $75 for an hour
with a super experienced instructor right before your checkride?
Sounds like a good deal to me! If I were an examiner, I'd
be impressed by a cautious and methodical applicant...