ADS-B why [Archive] - AviationBanter

Darryl Ramm

January 6th 17, 11:47 PM

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
>
> If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

You have what exact transponder in a experimental or certified glider?

As we've covered in two threads here recently, If you already have a Trig Transponder in an experimental glider then adding a Trig TN72 GPS is a relatively low cost way of getting 1090ES Out. That will make you visible to GA aircraft with ADS-B In (but you are already visible to them via TIS-B if you have a transponder, but you'll get a bit better ADS-B coverage and accuracy with ADS-B Out), make you visible over longer range to other PowerFLARM equipped gliders--potentially interesting to folks buddy flying. The fast/heavy jets with TCAS and ATC with SSR see you already via the transponder. ADS-B Out provides some improved tracking compared to SSR so in the case of an accident or landout may provide better position data to SAR organizations, but not great in the mountainous areas... and not a replacement for an InReach or Spot tracker.

ADS-B Out (including with a TN72 GPS on a Trig transponder) will trigger ground services to provide ADS-R and TIS-B service for your glider... which with PowerFLARM (which does 1090ES In only and is not compatible with ADS-R or TIS-B) that does you no good at all--but if you did want to play with a different ADS-B In receiver that might be intersting--but in reality is likely of no interesest to most glider pilots.

[email protected]

January 7th 17, 01:28 AM

Darryl,

If the glider is experimental...

Could you supply the ADSB Out capable transponder with NMEA GPS data from a GPS source such as a CNv or Powerflarm, etc.? I agree that the TN72 is affordable, but if experimental, is it necessary?

Separately, someone posted a comment which came from Trig which says the lower power Trig is acceptable for experimental gliders. Do you agree with that comment?

Darryl Ramm

January 7th 17, 02:04 AM

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Darryl,
>
> If the glider is experimental...
>
> Could you supply the ADSB Out capable transponder with NMEA GPS data from a GPS source such as a CNv or Powerflarm, etc.? I agree that the TN72 is affordable, but if experimental, is it necessary?
>
>
> Separately, someone posted a comment which came from Trig which says the lower power Trig is acceptable for experimental gliders. Do you agree with that comment?

The TN72 gets you more than any random consumer/NMEA GPS source will. Like display of your aircraft on the ADS-B In traffic displays in certified aircraft. So yes as a part of the whole ADS-B thing being a overly complex mess, you want to be as compliant as possible and this TABS stuff is better than random consumer stuff.

The Trig TT-21 (what I assume you mean by lower-power here) is fine for this "TABS" use in experimental aircraft. You can't use a TT-21 to meet any 2020 ADS-B Out compliance needs, but you are not doing that here, you are just using it to transmit (lower-power) 1090ES Out. That it happens to be TSO-C199/TABS complaint is irrelevant now in a regulations sense since there are no install or use regulations that affects.... and that's the issue with certified gliders today is there are is no TABS install regulations and (if needed) STCs that let you do that install. I hope the FAA addresses.

If you have a Trig transponder in an experimental glider I'd reach out to Trig and do exactly what they said to with the TN72. They know what they are doing, worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 etc.

MNLou

January 7th 17, 02:10 AM

Darryl -

If you have a Trig 22 transponder and a PowerFlarm installed in an experimental glider, would you still recommend installation of the TN72?

Thanks!

Lou

Jonathan St. Cloud

January 7th 17, 03:47 AM

Sorry very poorly worded original question. Trig transponder, experimental glider and assume gliders will be exempt from ADS-B out.

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 3:47:09 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> >
> > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
>
> You have what exact transponder in a experimental or certified glider?
>
> As we've covered in two threads here recently, If you already have a Trig Transponder in an experimental glider then adding a Trig TN72 GPS is a relatively low cost way of getting 1090ES Out. That will make you visible to GA aircraft with ADS-B In (but you are already visible to them via TIS-B if you have a transponder, but you'll get a bit better ADS-B coverage and accuracy with ADS-B Out), make you visible over longer range to other PowerFLARM equipped gliders--potentially interesting to folks buddy flying. The fast/heavy jets with TCAS and ATC with SSR see you already via the transponder. ADS-B Out provides some improved tracking compared to SSR so in the case of an accident or landout may provide better position data to SAR organizations, but not great in the mountainous areas... and not a replacement for an InReach or Spot tracker.
>
> ADS-B Out (including with a TN72 GPS on a Trig transponder) will trigger ground services to provide ADS-R and TIS-B service for your glider... which with PowerFLARM (which does 1090ES In only and is not compatible with ADS-R or TIS-B) that does you no good at all--but if you did want to play with a different ADS-B In receiver that might be intersting--but in reality is likely of no interesest to most glider pilots.

Darryl Ramm

January 7th 17, 04:13 AM

On 1/6/17 6:10 PM, MNLou wrote:
> Darryl -
>
> If you have a Trig 22 transponder and a PowerFlarm installed in an experimental glider, would you still recommend installation of the TN72?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Lou
>

Sure, if you wanted those benefits I mentioned.

If you want/need any actual 2020 Compliance things (like IFR flight into
Class A then that may not be enough)... and with a TT-22 you at least
have the option to do a full 2020 compliant ADS-B Out install.

Again talk to Trig, if the TN72 (in addition to actually being
TSO-C199/TABS) is also a "meets performance requirements of TSO-C145c"
GPS source then you can also use it to do a complaint install in an
experimental aircraft with a TT-22 (but not a TT-21) that does meet the
2020 ADS-B Out requirements.

I have an email into Trig to check on the "meets performance
requirements" question.

[email protected]

January 7th 17, 02:37 PM

If someone has a Trig or other Mode S transponder which does NOT have an ADSB source connected to it, but the owner HAS entered the correct FAA issued ID, does the Trig broadcast that ID so that other PowerFlarm equipped gliders can exclude (in theory) the Mode C, PCAS alert from the PowerFlarm?

Dan Marotta

January 7th 17, 03:22 PM

Yes.

I have a TT-22 and PowerFLARM portable and it works as you asked. I've
identified another glider by his contest call sign whereas he's only
been able to see my ICAO address since he's not yet downloaded the
latest flarmnet database.

On 1/7/2017 7:37 AM, wrote:
> If someone has a Trig or other Mode S transponder which does NOT have an ADSB source connected to it, but the owner HAS entered the correct FAA issued ID, does the Trig broadcast that ID so that other PowerFlarm equipped gliders can exclude (in theory) the Mode C, PCAS alert from the PowerFlarm?

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

January 7th 17, 03:38 PM

Dan,

But did he see your ID because it was coming from your PowerFlarm or did he see it because it was coming from the transponder??? That is the question.

What you saw in this case is not a factor.

Mark

Dan Marotta

January 7th 17, 03:53 PM

Forgot that part. I do not see myself because the PF is set up with my
ICAO address therefore it suppresses my own transponder.

On 1/7/2017 8:38 AM, wrote:
> Dan,
>
> But did he see your ID because it was coming from your PowerFlarm or did he see it because it was coming from the transponder??? That is the question.
>
> What you saw in this case is not a factor.
>
> Mark

--
Dan, 5J

Darryl Ramm

January 7th 17, 04:29 PM

Yes.

Dave Springford

January 7th 17, 10:32 PM

On Sunday, 8 January 2017 03:29:48 UTC+11, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Yes.

It depends on whether your TT-22 was pinged by Mode S or Mode C station. If pinged by a Mode S station it will reply Mode S with all the information. If pinged by a Mode C station it will reply Mode C without that information and even though properly configured with your ICAO address in both the flarm and Trig, it will still set of transponder warnings in nearby powerflarm units.

How often it is pinged by a mode C system is the question.

Dave Springford

January 8th 17, 02:00 AM

On Sunday, 8 January 2017 03:29:48 UTC+11, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Yes.

It depends on whether your TT-22 was pinged by Mode S or Mode C station. If pinged by a Mode S station it will reply Mode S with all the information. If pinged by a Mode C station it will reply Mode C without that information and even though properly configured with your ICAO address in both the flarm and Trig, it will still set off transponder warnings in nearby powerflarm units.

How often it is pinged by a mode C system is the question.

jfitch

January 8th 17, 05:44 PM

Tony[_5_]

January 8th 17, 06:15 PM

ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

Dan Marotta

January 8th 17, 06:26 PM

Yaaas... They do like to think they're in control. After all,
"controller" is in their job title.

On 1/8/2017 11:15 AM, Tony wrote:
> ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

--
Dan, 5J

jfitch

January 8th 17, 08:50 PM

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:15:40 AM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

Funny then, that they don't talk like that about other, not-in-contact, GA aircraft transiting the area.

I assumed that was because the GA aircraft was traveling faster, in a more or less straight line, leaving a nice streak on their screen. This is also what NorCal have said in talks with local clubs.

Whether a glider with ADSB out would change things I don't know - there are none in our area so far as I am aware.

WaltWX[_2_]

January 9th 17, 12:49 AM

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> >
> > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
>
> Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar.. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

jfitch

January 9th 17, 03:31 AM

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > >
> > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> >
> > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
>
> Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
>
> Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Darryl Ramm

January 9th 17, 04:05 AM

In the Truckee/Reno area, as far as controllers and airliners matter, I expect the thing that ATC will really want is folks with transponder and folks following PASCO procedures to communicate with Norcal (wether or not they have transponders). I'm wiling to bet those controllers would much rather have glider plots have transponders and talking to them than equipped with ADS-B Out.

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 7:31:56 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > >
> > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > >
> > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> >
> > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> >
> > Walt Rogers WX
>
> Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Mike Schumann[_2_]

January 9th 17, 01:30 PM

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > >
> > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > >
> > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> >
> > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> >
> > Walt Rogers WX
>
> Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

Jonathan St. Cloud

January 9th 17, 04:11 PM

I already see that 737 and they see me as I have PowerFlarm and Mode-S transponder.

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
>
> Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

jfitch

January 9th 17, 04:52 PM

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 8:05:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> In the Truckee/Reno area, as far as controllers and airliners matter, I expect the thing that ATC will really want is folks with transponder and folks following PASCO procedures to communicate with Norcal (wether or not they have transponders). I'm wiling to bet those controllers would much rather have glider plots have transponders and talking to them than equipped with ADS-B Out.
>
>
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 7:31:56 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > > >
> > > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > > >
> > > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> > >
> > > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> > >
> > > Walt Rogers WX
> >
> > Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

I haven't been that close since I put in a transponder, so it's doing its job. But good point about them wanting to talk rather than watch.

Darryl Ramm

January 10th 17, 04:51 AM

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > > >
> > > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > > >
> > > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> > >
> > > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> > >
> > > Walt Rogers WX
> >
> > Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.
>
> Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

Oh bull****. Pilots flying in the Reno area likely do not need any of your crackpot pro-ADS-B hype.

This is an area where transponder use is highly encouraged and PASCO has worked with the FAA to encourage communications/procedures with ATC and where clubs and FBOs tend to be extremely safety/traffic conscious. Following the Hawker 800 midair collision It's the frigging NTSB-poster-child of why gliders is similar areas should be *transponder* equipped.

If you run down that list of things then maybe you can add 1090ES ADS-B Out/In but it won't buy you a lot. ADS-B likely won't let you outmaneuver an airliner, it will help point out where the heavy traffic routes are, but glider pilots flying in the area already likely know those routes. It's ATC keeping that traffic away from gliders (with the use of transponders and radio) and in the worse case TCAS as a backup that is critically important in the area.

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

January 10th 17, 01:06 PM

I agree, ATC and local glider ops know jet routes. Where I fly (Middletown, NY) is right under a jet route into Newark airport in NJ. Jets usually come through at 6000'MSL south bound.
Many years ago we had a great soaring season with students getting to 10,000'MSL on thermals, thus above jet traffic. Boston center called our airport and "complained" about glider traffic. Reply back was that we had "right of way" in that airspace.
Now ATC brings jets through above cloudbase on weekends for separation. We teach to look towards the NNE now and then when getting towards cloudbase to look for traffic that wander below clouds.

Our other two concerns is a VOR on the ridge NNW of our site (about 20 miles out) and C5A traffic from Stewart airport east of us (about 20 miles out as well). On weekends, the C5's stay east of a local highway, we tend to stay west unless we're high since they are shooting instrument approaches using the VOR as a steer to final approach.

Similar for HHSC and Corning regional airport.

Bells and whistles are great, but looking outside plus knowing where big fast traffic will likely be is a great start.

My two concerns regarding midairs are someone doing something unexpected in a thermal (bells and whistles are likely too late then) I'm in or flying in the wispies at the bottom of a cloud where the low light and grayness totally hide a glider visually.

Mike Schumann[_2_]

January 10th 17, 01:19 PM

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 11:51:53 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > > > >
> > > > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3.. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> > > >
> > > > Walt Rogers WX
> > >
> > > Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.
> >
> > Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.
>
> Oh bull****. Pilots flying in the Reno area likely do not need any of your crackpot pro-ADS-B hype.
>
> This is an area where transponder use is highly encouraged and PASCO has worked with the FAA to encourage communications/procedures with ATC and where clubs and FBOs tend to be extremely safety/traffic conscious. Following the Hawker 800 midair collision It's the frigging NTSB-poster-child of why gliders is similar areas should be *transponder* equipped.
>
> If you run down that list of things then maybe you can add 1090ES ADS-B Out/In but it won't buy you a lot. ADS-B likely won't let you outmaneuver an airliner, it will help point out where the heavy traffic routes are, but glider pilots flying in the area already likely know those routes. It's ATC keeping that traffic away from gliders (with the use of transponders and radio) and in the worse case TCAS as a backup that is critically important in the area.

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B? Have you listened to ATC giving traffic advisories to jets flying around gliders? In many areas, you get a warning that there is a glider dead ahead at your altitude, but no minor vectors to deviate to avoid the traffic. Everyone is suppose to look outside and see the traffic when you have a closing speed of 250+ knots.

Just look at what happened with the military midairs with transponder equipped GA planes during the last year. That shows you exactly how effective today's ATC procedures can be.

Finally, your assertion that a glider can't out maneuver a 737 is total BS. What's the turning radius of a 737? It doesn't take much maneuvering to get out of the way of a jet. All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way. Kind of hard to do, when he's coming up from behind you and you don't have a clue he's there.

Bruce Hoult

January 10th 17, 01:55 PM

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 4:19:31 PM UTC+3, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 11:51:53 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > > > > I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123..3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt Rogers WX
> > > >
> > > > Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.
> > >
> > > Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you.. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.
> >
> > Oh bull****. Pilots flying in the Reno area likely do not need any of your crackpot pro-ADS-B hype.
> >
> > This is an area where transponder use is highly encouraged and PASCO has worked with the FAA to encourage communications/procedures with ATC and where clubs and FBOs tend to be extremely safety/traffic conscious. Following the Hawker 800 midair collision It's the frigging NTSB-poster-child of why gliders is similar areas should be *transponder* equipped.
> >
> > If you run down that list of things then maybe you can add 1090ES ADS-B Out/In but it won't buy you a lot. ADS-B likely won't let you outmaneuver an airliner, it will help point out where the heavy traffic routes are, but glider pilots flying in the area already likely know those routes. It's ATC keeping that traffic away from gliders (with the use of transponders and radio) and in the worse case TCAS as a backup that is critically important in the area.
>
> Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B? Have you listened to ATC giving traffic advisories to jets flying around gliders? In many areas, you get a warning that there is a glider dead ahead at your altitude, but no minor vectors to deviate to avoid the traffic. Everyone is suppose to look outside and see the traffic when you have a closing speed of 250+ knots.
>
> Just look at what happened with the military midairs with transponder equipped GA planes during the last year. That shows you exactly how effective today's ATC procedures can be.
>
> Finally, your assertion that a glider can't out maneuver a 737 is total BS. What's the turning radius of a 737? It doesn't take much maneuvering to get out of the way of a jet. All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way. Kind of hard to do, when he's coming up from behind you and you don't have a clue he's there.

When they're doing a mile every 6 or 7 seconds? If they're that close when you take action then it's much faster to adjust your altitude up to 500 ft up or down (depending on your initial speed).

You know the jet's altitude much more accurately than it's position or track anyway.

January 11th 17, 04:53 AM

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
>
> Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

Tom BravoMike

January 11th 17, 04:58 PM

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> >
> > Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?
>
> No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
> Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
> There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
> Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
> Jim

Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?

Tom BravoMike

January 11th 17, 05:55 PM

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 8:58:34 AM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?
> >
> > No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
> > Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
> > There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
> > Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
> > Jim
>
> Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?
>
> Tom BravoMike

Sorry for using a readily available example.
Many good XC weekends at the home field will have gliders sharing a thermal even if a gaggle of two. The gaggles might have elite wood, fabric and steel tubing aircraft.
Would like to know how a modern collision avoidance / traffic awareness system that is designed for typical power traffic separation works in this situation.
Jim

Tom BravoMike

January 11th 17, 07:07 PM

I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike

MNLou

January 11th 17, 10:43 PM

One thing I have found Flarm very useful for -

If I am in a crowded gaggle, I've got my head on a swivel. Flarm does a pretty decent job of warning me about gliders away from the thermal who are flying straight looking to join the thermal. It tends to reduce the shock when someone suddenly appears off your 3 o'clock outside the thermal.

Lou

Dan Marotta

January 12th 17, 01:59 AM

In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.
>
> Tom BravoMike
>

--
Dan, 5J

January 24th 17, 07:54 AM

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
> great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
> overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
> vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
> the Mk-I eyeball.
>
> I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
> being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
> Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
> it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
> meaningless information.
>
> On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.
> >
> > Tom BravoMike
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom

[email protected]

January 24th 17, 08:58 PM

> All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.

Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.

January 25th 17, 03:54 AM

> Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.
>
> Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.
>
> Tom

Radio exchange with the local approach controller: 'Are you monitoring 1202?' 'Ah - gliders - no, got them filtered out - there are just too many of them!' <insert the sound the little birdie makes, when it comes out of the door of a cuckoo clock here>

jfitch

January 25th 17, 05:58 AM

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:54:18 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
> > great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
> > overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
> > vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
> > the Mk-I eyeball.
> >
> > I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
> > being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
> > Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
> > it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
> > meaningless information.
> >
> > On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.
> > >
> > > Tom BravoMike
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.
>
> Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.
>
> Tom

Well I've been that close (before I installed a Mode S transponder) and I didn't like it all that much. I didn't have much choice in the matter as I was doing 60 knots and they were doing 250. Prior to the transponder, monitoring ATC it was clear they could (often) see me and attempted to route traffic around me, but some frustration could be inferred from the conversation.. With Mode S their job is much easier, and I wonder if it would be easier still with ADSB. With ADSB in, At least I can see them coming.

Dan Marotta

January 25th 17, 03:25 PM

I understand about filtering slow-moving targets, like geese, and
filtering out a particular transponder code (1202) but, since I
installed my Mode S transponder 4 or 5 years ago, I have not seen an
airliner or business jet up close. Even though ATC might have filtered
me out, the TCAS equipped aircraft see me directly. I don't know about
the ADS-B In equipped aircraft...

I do recall, from 30 years ago, a student solo flight in a 1-26, when I
heard the rising sound of an engine and propeller coming towards me. I
never saw him... I didn't like that very much and I hope to never
experience it again. Damage was limited to minor seat cushion deformity.

On 1/24/2017 10:58 PM, jfitch wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:54:18 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
>>> great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
>>> overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
>>> vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
>>> the Mk-I eyeball.
>>>
>>> I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
>>> being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
>>> Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
>>> it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
>>> meaningless information.
>>>
>>> On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>>>> I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.
>>>>
>>>> Tom BravoMike
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan, 5J
>> Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.
>>
>> Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.
>>
>> Tom
> Well I've been that close (before I installed a Mode S transponder) and I didn't like it all that much. I didn't have much choice in the matter as I was doing 60 knots and they were doing 250. Prior to the transponder, monitoring ATC it was clear they could (often) see me and attempted to route traffic around me, but some frustration could be inferred from the conversation. With Mode S their job is much easier, and I wonder if it would be easier still with ADSB. With ADSB in, At least I can see them coming.

--
Dan, 5J

Bruce Hoult

January 25th 17, 03:49 PM

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 11:58:40 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.
>
> Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.

If you fly straight and level for a few seconds and he's not changing position in the canopy -- and ESPECIALLY if he's on your horizon and that's not changing -- then it's time to do something different.

You can probably lose 500 ft faster than you can do anything else. And if it still looks dodgy that will also give you speed and energy to try something else -- climb again, turn to one side etc.

Darryl Ramm

January 26th 17, 06:24 AM

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 7:49:16 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 11:58:40 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > > All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.
> >
> > Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.
>
> If you fly straight and level for a few seconds and he's not changing position in the canopy -- and ESPECIALLY if he's on your horizon and that's not changing -- then it's time to do something different.
>
> You can probably lose 500 ft faster than you can do anything else. And if it still looks dodgy that will also give you speed and energy to try something else -- climb again, turn to one side etc.

I can't tell if you seriously believe this is likely to be effective, if you are advocating not equipping with transponders or you are talking about a last ditch effort should transponders/SSR/TCAS fail.

A fast jet closing on you at 300+ knots, possibly climbing or descending (very likely in areas like Reno), you can't guess wether it's going to go below or above you or what and you can't tell what action the jet will take if the crew sees you or it gets a TCAS RA (if you do have a transponder). Your best bet in these circumstances is install and use a transponder and communicate with ATC, and when all that fails you hopefully get to fall back and rely on TCAS II doing its thing and hopefully the flight crew quickly following the RA.

If you don't have a transponder you should not be flying in these very busy terminal areas.

And sure if all that fails for some reason you'll try to do whatever you can however ineffective it may be. Even a TCAS II RA is going to divert a fast jet well above or below you before I expect most glider pilots will want to try to take emergency action.

If the though is you don't need a transponder in these sorts of extremely busy areas and having ADS-B In lets you see jet traffic and maybe you can just avoid that, that is absolutely crazy thinking. If people really think that way then I regret the FAA not removing the glider transponder exemption. My experience with glider pilots in the Reno area is that many of them are very responsible and understand the need to use transponders, to work with ATC, etc. PASCO, clubs, FBOs in the area deserve a lot of credit for helping encourage responsible transponder use and cooperation with the ATC.

Bruce Hoult

January 26th 17, 11:07 AM

On Thursday, January 26, 2017 at 9:24:15 AM UTC+3, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 7:49:16 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 11:58:40 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > > > All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.
> > >
> > > Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.
> >
> > If you fly straight and level for a few seconds and he's not changing position in the canopy -- and ESPECIALLY if he's on your horizon and that's not changing -- then it's time to do something different.
> >
> > You can probably lose 500 ft faster than you can do anything else. And if it still looks dodgy that will also give you speed and energy to try something else -- climb again, turn to one side etc.
>
> I can't tell if you seriously believe this is likely to be effective, if you are advocating not equipping with transponders or you are talking about a last ditch effort should transponders/SSR/TCAS fail.
>
> A fast jet closing on you at 300+ knots, possibly climbing or descending (very likely in areas like Reno), you can't guess wether it's going to go below or above you or what and you can't tell what action the jet will take if the crew sees you or it gets a TCAS RA (if you do have a transponder). Your best bet in these circumstances is install and use a transponder and communicate with ATC, and when all that fails you hopefully get to fall back and rely on TCAS II doing its thing and hopefully the flight crew quickly following the RA.
>
> If you don't have a transponder you should not be flying in these very busy terminal areas.
>
> And sure if all that fails for some reason you'll try to do whatever you can however ineffective it may be. Even a TCAS II RA is going to divert a fast jet well above or below you before I expect most glider pilots will want to try to take emergency action.
>
> If the though is you don't need a transponder in these sorts of extremely busy areas and having ADS-B In lets you see jet traffic and maybe you can just avoid that, that is absolutely crazy thinking. If people really think that way then I regret the FAA not removing the glider transponder exemption. My experience with glider pilots in the Reno area is that many of them are very responsible and understand the need to use transponders, to work with ATC, etc. PASCO, clubs, FBOs in the area deserve a lot of credit for helping encourage responsible transponder use and cooperation with the ATC.

I don't know what you're on, as I've said nothing about flying without appropriate electronics.

However, when it comes down to it, a 737 is flying through a path about 12m high and 35m wide. Your aim is to not be in that path. Watching the angle is the way to know if you have a problem or not. If the angle is not changing then you have a problem. You can make an adjustment vertically far faster than you can make an adjustment horizontally (that's what wings *do*), and in the worst hopefully never happens case of a very near miss you have to adjust by less in the vertical direction as well. It's the obvious choice. Science.