Avionic trailer.

[[email protected]]

Thinking about new trailer and would like to know pros and cons from Avionic owners.
Since Avionic is about 40% cheaper than Cobra right now it looks like good deal....
Also if anyone owned Cobra and Avionic and can compare both models. Thank you Pavel

[MNLou]

Hi Pavel -

I have owned both. I had an Avionic trailer for my PW-5 and have a Cobra trailer with my LAK17at. Both had fiberglass tops. Both were well outfitted with jigs, etc. Both were about 2002 vintage.

I really liked the fluted floor of the Avionic trailer. The Avionic trailer had more running lights around the exterior and on the tire fender.

The Avionic was higher than the Cobra. They both trailered quite well. I'd have to give a slight edge to the lower Cobra in high cross winds. I can tow at a little faster speed than the Avionic before I'm concerned about sway.

I hope this helps.

Lou

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Thinking about new trailer and would like to know pros and cons from Avionic owners.
> Since Avionic is about 40% cheaper than Cobra right now it looks like good deal....
> Also if anyone owned Cobra and Avionic and can compare both models. Thank you Pavel

- I owned Cobra and had two Avionics parked right next to mine. Avionic trailers come in different height/size, so the one hosting Pw-5 is in fact taller, but one parked next to me was home to SZD-55 and it was about the same size as my Cobra. Both are great and if you considering purchasing new go for Avionic. I don’t think it is 40 percent lesser value than Cobra. Also, bare in mind Cobra spare parts come at a premium price.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 10:15:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Thinking about new trailer and would like to know pros and cons from Avionic owners.
> > Since Avionic is about 40% cheaper than Cobra right now it looks like good deal....
> > Also if anyone owned Cobra and Avionic and can compare both models. Thank you Pavel
>
> - I owned Cobra and had two Avionics parked right next to mine. Avionic trailers come in different height/size, so the one hosting Pw-5 is in fact taller, but one parked next to me was home to SZD-55 and it was about the same size as my Cobra. Both are great and if you considering purchasing new go for Avionic. I don’t think it is 40 percent lesser value than Cobra. Also, bare in mind Cobra spare parts come at a premium price.

I have a 2008 Avionic AVG-15 for my SZD-55. I'm very happy with it. It is very stable; I normally drive speed limit so 65 mph/105 kph for mileage. It's easy in/out and I like the over centre lock that raises the fuselage instead of the hydraulic or screw versions. I would have bought the third rail if I had to do it again. The wing dollies/fuselage dolly/tail storage all were correct for my glider (shipped from Europe in it). I recently had to replace the clamshell gas struts - inexpensive and quick from the factory. I have the glass top but probably would get the aluminum top the next time - just less maintenance.

I'd buy another Avionic, should I marry money or win the lottery and upgrade to an 18m glider.
Dan

Others have Cobras - I've crewed for XG's 29 and Joerg's LS-8/18, both with Cobras, and they are nice, though a bit more 'spendy'.

[cuflyer]

I've owned 2 Avionics and have been quite happy.
They pull well and hold up well. I've had my current one for 15 years.
Support from Jerzy (North America) has also been good.
Definitely a good value if you don't want to pay Cobra prices.

Cheers,
Tim

[[email protected]]

The difference is in the details. Many people will never know or care about what I notice.
I have had a Minden Fab trailer, an Avionics trailer, a trailer made by a trailer manufacturer that I never heard of, and now two Cobra trailers.
The Avionics seems to be an attempted knock-off of a
Cobra. It looks very similar. The construction, dollies, keepers, track system, and running gear look very close.
My experience says that Cobra pays GREAT attention to details. Especially nuts and bolts that do no protrude into the spaces that your hands will occupy when you begin to move things around in the trailer. I do all one man rigging so I am very intimate with my trailers.
Bottom line, I spent significant money to replace an Avionics trailer with a Cobra when the dollar was weak. The bolts that extended 1/4 to 1/2 inch beyond the nuts and would "catch" your hand or fingers got to be too much.
Avionics are well built but not refined.

[[email protected]]

I have owned both and towed both with the same tow cars. No difference in towing. Both were stable at speeds up to 85-90 mph. (Note, my comments are based on the trailers I have owned, mid 1990's vintage Cobra and Avionic.)

Avionic
pro: slightly lighter, less expensive, good service from Windpath
con: possible for the wing root dolly to disengage from the tracks,
the ramp does not remain engaged to a track when it is deployed,
the front of the trailer is not as well set up for storage of
rigging gear.

pro: more attention to detail in construction and design making it
more "user friendly"
con: more expensive, the tongue wheel can slip down while towing

Advice:
Given comparable trailers (vintage, condition, options) for the same price, get the Cobra.

If money is a factor, get the Avionic.

P9

[Ludovic[_2_]]

Hi

I bought a new Avionic trailer in 2016 for my DG-808B
I haven't only done 1 rigging / derigging with it, but have done countless similar operations with Cobras or Schroeder trailers.

There are indeed differences with Cobra trailers:
1)
The first one is the door at the back which is not (and shouldn't be) used as a rest point to stabilise the trailer. You have to deploy the "crutch" and make sure the door doesn't support any weight as it's not designed to do so (2 smaller hinges compared to door wide hinge on the Cobra).
You also have to make sure the door is far enough from the ground not to damage the wing supports located on the inside of the door. They're longer than the door and can easily be damaged.

2)The central rail on the ramp does not fold sideways. There are two additional central ramps that are store on the side of the trailer that you have to put in place before use.(main, and last ramp that guides the tail to the ground.

3)The wing dolly can disengage from the ramp if you're not careful or too quick in the manoeuvre.

4) I ordered a "luxury" version with aluminium floor and aluminium top. Not sure Cobra has an option for aluminium floor ?

Again, this might not be true for all types of gliders (wing supports on the door for instance...), this is only reflecting my experience with an AVG18 and DG-808 with wing parting.
My advice would be to double check with the factory that they have already the exact dimensions for your glider and accessories before the manufacture is started. If not, send them the info.

I'm sure the factory will take these differences and inconveniences into account and try to improve their product.

All in all I'm quite happy with it. I don't think the higher price of the Cobra is worth the difference, unless maybe you have to rig at every flight.

In conclusion: I would definitely recommend an Avionic trailer.

[[email protected]]

There are a few Avionic (and Cobra and Komet) trailers at my club. Mine was the first. I bought it new in late 2004 to replace the disintegrating wooden trailer my ASW-15 came with. Two years later another club member bought one to replace his old trailer. More recently a LAK-17B-FES and an Apis were purchased by two of our pilots and they came with Avionic trailers. There have been some changes to the details over the years but the basic trailers are very similar. We all rig our gliders from the trailers for every flight so we've got a lot of collective experience with the trailers. Fittings have been very good. The "over center" lifting mechanism for the ramp is an improvement on the double scissors jack that mine has as it's a lot quicker to use. Ours are all fiberglass top models and the nicest thing about them compared to the Cobras and Komets is the amount of room inside. I think they made the mold for the top rather large to be sure the trailer could hold older ships with thicker and/or broader chord wings. It makes it really easy to store all the assorted glider accessories up front. They are very good trailers really and I don't think you can go wrong with one. I've never had a problem with the wing root dollies coming out unintentionally or a problem with protruding hardware on mine or the others.

It's probably worth looking around for a used Cobra or Komet if buying a new trailer isn't an urgent necessity as it was in my case. You would probably have to do some refurbishing and adjusting or replacing of fittings but it might be worth your time and money to do so if you can find a good used trailer.

[2G]

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 7:52:22 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> There are a few Avionic (and Cobra and Komet) trailers at my club. Mine was the first. I bought it new in late 2004 to replace the disintegrating wooden trailer my ASW-15 came with. Two years later another club member bought one to replace his old trailer. More recently a LAK-17B-FES and an Apis were purchased by two of our pilots and they came with Avionic trailers. There have been some changes to the details over the years but the basic trailers are very similar. We all rig our gliders from the trailers for every flight so we've got a lot of collective experience with the trailers. Fittings have been very good. The "over center" lifting mechanism for the ramp is an improvement on the double scissors jack that mine has as it's a lot quicker to use. Ours are all fiberglass top models and the nicest thing about them compared to the Cobras and Komets is the amount of room inside. I think they made the mold for the top rather large to be sure the trailer could hold older ships with thicker and/or broader chord wings. It makes it really easy to store all the assorted glider accessories up front. They are very good trailers really and I don't think you can go wrong with one. I've never had a problem with the wing root dollies coming out unintentionally or a problem with protruding hardware on mine or the others.
>
> It's probably worth looking around for a used Cobra or Komet if buying a new trailer isn't an urgent necessity as it was in my case. You would probably have to do some refurbishing and adjusting or replacing of fittings but it might be worth your time and money to do so if you can find a good used trailer.

The lack of a fuse jack makes one man rigging more complicated. I use the jack on my Cobra trailer to fine tune the dihedral angle of the wings to the fuse. Also, the angle needs to be changed somewhat during derigging to unload the main pins, all done with the jack. Without a jack I would be making multiple trips to the wing dolly and, worse, the opposite wing stand. There is no way I would buy such a trailer.

Also the ramp tracks are much less robust than the Cobra, and I see no extension for the tail wheel (believe me, you don't want to carry the tail of a Schleicher motorglider any distance, not even a foot - if my back goes out so does my flying).

Tom

[krasw]

perjantai 20. tammikuuta 2017 2.27.24 UTC+2 kirjoitti:
> Thinking about new trailer and would like to know pros and cons from Avionic owners.
> Since Avionic is about 40% cheaper than Cobra right now it looks like good deal....
> Also if anyone owned Cobra and Avionic and can compare both models. Thank you Pavel

I believe you get what you pay for. I would also consider used Cobra over new Avionic. My club have had Avionic trailer for 10+ years and several Komets, Cobras, Swan, DIY etc. It is by far the worst trailer we have judging by the ease of use and quality. Maybe the new ones are better, who knows.

[Ludovic[_2_]]

> The lack of a fuse jack makes one man rigging more complicated.
> I see no extension for the tail wheel

I have a fuselage hydraulic jack on the ramp as well as a ramp extension for the tail wheel on mine. They come as optional, but are available.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 2:19:32 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 7:52:22 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > There are a few Avionic (and Cobra and Komet) trailers at my club. Mine was the first. I bought it new in late 2004 to replace the disintegrating wooden trailer my ASW-15 came with. Two years later another club member bought one to replace his old trailer. More recently a LAK-17B-FES and an Apis were purchased by two of our pilots and they came with Avionic trailers. There have been some changes to the details over the years but the basic trailers are very similar. We all rig our gliders from the trailers for every flight so we've got a lot of collective experience with the trailers. Fittings have been very good. The "over center" lifting mechanism for the ramp is an improvement on the double scissors jack that mine has as it's a lot quicker to use. Ours are all fiberglass top models and the nicest thing about them compared to the Cobras and Komets is the amount of room inside. I think they made the mold for the top rather large to be sure the trailer could hold older ships with thicker and/or broader chord wings. It makes it really easy to store all the assorted glider accessories up front. They are very good trailers really and I don't think you can go wrong with one. I've never had a problem with the wing root dollies coming out unintentionally or a problem with protruding hardware on mine or the others.
> >
> > It's probably worth looking around for a used Cobra or Komet if buying a new trailer isn't an urgent necessity as it was in my case. You would probably have to do some refurbishing and adjusting or replacing of fittings but it might be worth your time and money to do so if you can find a good used trailer.
>
> The lack of a fuse jack makes one man rigging more complicated. I use the jack on my Cobra trailer to fine tune the dihedral angle of the wings to the fuse. Also, the angle needs to be changed somewhat during derigging to unload the main pins, all done with the jack. Without a jack I would be making multiple trips to the wing dolly and, worse, the opposite wing stand. There is no way I would buy such a trailer.
>
> Also the ramp tracks are much less robust than the Cobra, and I see no extension for the tail wheel (believe me, you don't want to carry the tail of a Schleicher motorglider any distance, not even a foot - if my back goes out so does my flying).
>
> Tom

You can buy the jack optionally or add one yourself.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:19:32 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 7:52:22 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > There are a few Avionic (and Cobra and Komet) trailers at my club. Mine was the first. I bought it new in late 2004 to replace the disintegrating wooden trailer my ASW-15 came with. Two years later another club member bought one to replace his old trailer. More recently a LAK-17B-FES and an Apis were purchased by two of our pilots and they came with Avionic trailers. There have been some changes to the details over the years but the basic trailers are very similar. We all rig our gliders from the trailers for every flight so we've got a lot of collective experience with the trailers. Fittings have been very good. The "over center" lifting mechanism for the ramp is an improvement on the double scissors jack that mine has as it's a lot quicker to use. Ours are all fiberglass top models and the nicest thing about them compared to the Cobras and Komets is the amount of room inside. I think they made the mold for the top rather large to be sure the trailer could hold older ships with thicker and/or broader chord wings. It makes it really easy to store all the assorted glider accessories up front. They are very good trailers really and I don't think you can go wrong with one. I've never had a problem with the wing root dollies coming out unintentionally or a problem with protruding hardware on mine or the others.
> >
> > It's probably worth looking around for a used Cobra or Komet if buying a new trailer isn't an urgent necessity as it was in my case. You would probably have to do some refurbishing and adjusting or replacing of fittings but it might be worth your time and money to do so if you can find a good used trailer.
>
> The lack of a fuse jack makes one man rigging more complicated. I use the jack on my Cobra trailer to fine tune the dihedral angle of the wings to the fuse. Also, the angle needs to be changed somewhat during derigging to unload the main pins, all done with the jack. Without a jack I would be making multiple trips to the wing dolly and, worse, the opposite wing stand. There is no way I would buy such a trailer.
>
> Also the ramp tracks are much less robust than the Cobra, and I see no extension for the tail wheel (believe me, you don't want to carry the tail of a Schleicher motorglider any distance, not even a foot - if my back goes out so does my flying).
>
> Tom

Well, I've assembled my ASW-15 with an Udo Rumpf one man rigger over 400 times out of my 2004 Avionic trailer and have never once used the fuselage ramp double scissors jack to fine tune the fuselage height. I just set the wingstand height correctly, set the rigger height correctly and everything goes smoothly. I haven't ever needed to go to the wingstand to adjust it after the initial setting when I transfer the first wing from the rigger to the stand and have only occasionally (once in every 25 riggings or so) had to adjust the rigger height once after the initial setting. That's why in my case I think the over-center jack would be fine - I only use the ramp jack to get the gear up and down. Scissors and hydraulic jacks are available as an option as are tailwheel ramps if your glider has a heavy tail. I've yet to have any problem with a lack of "robustness" of the ramp rails too. Since buying the trailer new in 2004 I've had to replace the tires and the plastic vent louvers on the front side and tail housing. A few light bulbs have burnt out and I've had to adjust the brakes once. That's the sum total of all the work I've had to do to the trailer to date. The gel-coat still looks pretty good too.

I wouldn't be surprised if the glass top Avionic is considerably heavier than an aluminium top Cobras or the older Komets though. The thick glass top is probably better for the temperate coastal rain forest climate I live in as early or late in the year I have a lot fewer problems with condensation than the guys with aluminium top trailers even though I don't have a powered vent.

Cobra does have fantastic customer service when you need parts. The fuselage ramp jack on our DG-505's trailer failed and when we needed new hitch and surge brake damper parts for our DG-300 trailer (both aluminium top Cobras) they got them to us fast and the price was pretty good too. This also would make it pretty painless to change the fittings on a used Cobra trailer if you have a different glider to the one that it was built for. If you go the used Cobra route be sure to measure the trailer dimensions though. We have a couple of 80's aluminium top Cobras that are only a few serial numbers apart but one has significantly more room inside than the other and the Libelle owner who bought it used to replace his wretched old home built trailer had to be a little creative to fit his ship into it.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> A few light bulbs have burnt out and I've had to adjust the brakes once. That's the sum total of all the work I've had to do to the trailer to date. The gel-coat still looks pretty good too.
>

I forgot; I replaced the side running lights with LEDs and left the others incandescent to reduce the load while keeping the 'bulb out' feature on my Jetta happy.

[[email protected]]

My new Avionic trailer is in production now and I can upgrade to 14`` wheels.Is there any real advantage of bigger wheels? I have light 15M pure sailplane. Thank you.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 3:03:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> My new Avionic trailer is in production now and I can upgrade to 14`` wheels.Is there any real advantage of bigger wheels? I have light 15M pure sailplane. Thank you.

I specified 14" 175R14C's (came with Savas) for my AVG 15 when I bought my glider in 2009. You get a bit more clearance, at the expense of more drag, and if you open the top in a garage, you have less clearance on top. Getting replacement tires in North America is a challenge in that size. I have an SZD-55. The trailer pulls very well at interstate speeds with both tires (others in the club have 13" tires on theirs). My mileage drops from 43 mpg US to 31 at 65 mph (Jetta TDI) and I expect it'd be a bit better with 13's.

If I had to do it again, I'd get the 13" tires; easier to replace, 13's work well, have no flaws, the spare would take up a bit less space, and there are dozens/hundreds of satisfied owners.

[BobW]

On 9/2/2017 1:03 AM, wrote:
> My new Avionic trailer is in production now and I can upgrade to 14`` wheels.Is there any real advantage of bigger wheels? I have light 15M pure sailplane. Thank you.

Prolly less of an issue on a trailer than a powered vehicle, but - having
owned for decades one vehicle w. 14" wheels and one w. 13" wheels, driving
both on lots of unpaved, often muddy, roads - the 14-inchers were definitely
easier to keep in balance before needing to resort to a hose (spinning ~7%
slower at a given speed).

Other than (especially these days, still owning the 13-incher) people in shops
looking at me funny when asked about 13" SR tire choices, in the U.S. I've
never had any problem obtaining tires for either vehicle (or the various
14"-tired glider trailers I've owned).

YMMV,
Bob W.

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