Clarification - RE: Does everyone teach this way?

[Dancebert]

I looked at my original post and saw ample room for misinterpretation
because of what I left out and how poorly I explained that which I did
include. I'd like to clarify two points.

The first is that I wasn't criticizing any of the instructors. I was
expressing frustation at what I assumed to be a U.S. national standard
syllabus or teaching method.

When I described what I called the "I'll tell you what to do but I'm
not going to tell you how to do it" method, I failed to explain that
most of the instruction I've received DID NOT happen that way.
Usually the instructor explains the skill, I shadow the controls while
he does it then I get a shot at it. Sorry for the confusion.

[Jim Skydell]

Now I am completely confused. The things you originally mentioned that you felt were causing
problems in your training, you now say happened rarely. Please clarify further exactly what
has been so frustrating, so people can offer some help.

When learning to fly gliders, some things go smoothly and easily, other things seem impossible
at first. Most people usually get over all the hurdles, look back, and wonder why certain
things seemed so hard.

In general, changing instructors 4 times probably creates a needless hurdle, in and of itself.
It will certainly help any instructor if you make it clear how you best learn. There really is
no "standard teaching method," each instructor is different. And as far as syllabus, the FAA
has a list of things that an examiner chooses for you to perform during your oral and flight
test (called the PTS). Unfortunately, some instructors may not teach certain things (even if
they are in the PTS). BTW, the new Soaring manual published by the FAA is a large improvement
from anything previously available, in terms of a written "syllabus."

Not trying to sound critical, just sorry to hear about your frustration.

Jim Skydell

[J Goode]

Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
search will clue anyone in on it..........
Yeah, I know you'll be ****ed but if you pull your pants down in public, you
have got to expect someone commenting on the pimples on your ass........




"Dancebert" > wrote in message
...
> I looked at my original post and saw ample room for misinterpretation
> because of what I left out and how poorly I explained that which I did
> include. I'd like to clarify two points.
>
> The first is that I wasn't criticizing any of the instructors. I was
> expressing frustation at what I assumed to be a U.S. national standard
> syllabus or teaching method.
>
> When I described what I called the "I'll tell you what to do but I'm
> not going to tell you how to do it" method, I failed to explain that
> most of the instruction I've received DID NOT happen that way.
> Usually the instructor explains the skill, I shadow the controls while
> he does it then I get a shot at it. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dancebert]

I should know better than posting something serious on USENET while
still hot under the collar. I should also know that I if I'm not
exact enough that people are going to read between the lines and come
to incorrect conclusions.

I never said I changed instructors 4 times, I said I've had 4
different instructors. The first school choose to teach me with two
different instructors. I choose to stop training there because it was
too hot. I had no problems with the school, in fact I've recommened
it to a couple of fellow hang glider pilots. So at the first school I
had 2 or 3 flights with two instructors. At the current school I've
had about 20 flights, 19 with the same instructor.

I never said I had any problems with the instructors, or that I was
looking for a new instructor, but that I was frustrated with what I
thought was a standard teaching method as they all used it. I've been
around the net long enough to know to rarely mention someone by name,
for fear of either not communicating clearly or being misinterpreted.
I know one of the instructors I've had reads this group, I hope you
haven't taken offense at anything I posted.

I consider my problem solved. Buck Wild pointed out to me that it's
by design. In computer programmer speak, 'that's not a bug, it's a
feature'.

On 20 Oct 2003 15:39:23 -0700, (Buck Wild) wrote:
.....
>I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students
safely
>while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job. ...
>You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
>what somebody tells you. ...

I'll take a new attitude into the sky this weekend, and see what
happens. Thanks for all the feedback.

[Jack Glendening]

Dancebert wrote:
> I'll take a new attitude into the sky this weekend, and see what
> happens. Thanks for all the feedback.

I have not read every single posting to this thread, but in what I did
read no one mentioned the idea of continually saying, out loud, what you
are thinking (as least much as you can, whatever seems most important at
the time - normally you are thinking about more things than can be fully
verbailized). Often the instructor only sees what you are doing and
must try to fill in the blanks, so I have found it useful to fill in
those blanks as much as possible and have gotten much valuable feedback
that way - and if there is an error in my thinking it is much more apt
to be pointed out. [In my experience, though, this is not something
that an instructor will suggest on their own.]

[Dancebert]

"J Goode" > wrote in message >...
> Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
> web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
> search will clue anyone in on it..........

Wouldn't it have been more persuasive to point to specific posts where
boob qualities were demonstrated? Here is a Google query to get ya'll
started: (I would have provided a Deja search, but Google purchased
them last Feb.)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=dancebert&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=0&sa=N

Or, if you'd rather seach the web:
http://www.google.com/search?q=dancebert&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

[Jack Glendening]

J Goode wrote:
> Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
> web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
> search will clue anyone in on it..........

But on RAS the maturity level is a bit higher so we try to help others
who need it, not jump on them.

[Lennie the Lurker]

Jack Glendening > wrote in message >...
> J Goode wrote:
> > Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
> > web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
> > search will clue anyone in on it..........
>
> But on RAS the maturity level is a bit higher so we try to help others
> who need it, not jump on them.

ROFLMAO

[Jack Glendening]

Lennie the Lurker wrote:
> Jack Glendening > wrote in message >...
>
>>J Goode wrote:
>>
>>>Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
>>>web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
>>>search will clue anyone in on it..........
>>
>>But on RAS the maturity level is a bit higher so we try to help others
>>who need it, not jump on them.
>
>
> ROFLMAO

Of course, that's not to say that there are _no_ juviniles on RAS.

[John Morgan]

"Jack Glendening" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Lennie the Lurker wrote:
> > Jack Glendening > wrote in message
>...
> >
> >>J Goode wrote:
> >>
> >>>Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on
the
> >>>web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
> >>>search will clue anyone in on it..........
> >>
> >>But on RAS the maturity level is a bit higher so we try to help others
> >>who need it, not jump on them.
> >
> >
> > ROFLMAO
>
> Of course, that's not to say that there are _no_ juviniles on RAS.
>

ROFLMAO (but in agreement - - - good one, Jack!)

--
bumper - ZZ >
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
to reply, the last half is right to left


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[Mark James Boyd]

I suggest two things:

Take the Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) and the Advanced Ground
Instructor (AGI) written tests. Then take them to the
Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and get a ground
instructor license. This may help you understand the basics
of flight instructing and help you with some self-awareness
as a student (and what you want from your instructors).

If you meet the requirements for time, train for and
get a commercial instead of a private glider license.
I especially recommend this for transition pilots that
can just take ten extra tows to meet the minimums.
The US PTS standards are so close (+- 5 kts
instead of +- 10 kts, +- 5 deg instead of +- 10 deg of bank) that
it's negligible.

Winter is the best time for training. Less competition for
tows, gliders, instructors, traffic, runways. And none of
that icky bumpy air to make you sick on your first few
flights. Enjoy it!

[Ron Best]

Oh this is rich. One idiot advising another......to become an instructor no
less........
roflmao


"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:3f9827c4$1@darkstar...
> I suggest two things:
>
> Take the Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) and the Advanced Ground
> Instructor (AGI) written tests. Then take them to the
> Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and get a ground
> instructor license. This may help you understand the basics
> of flight instructing and help you with some self-awareness
> as a student (and what you want from your instructors).
>
> If you meet the requirements for time, train for and
> get a commercial instead of a private glider license.
> I especially recommend this for transition pilots that
> can just take ten extra tows to meet the minimums.
> The US PTS standards are so close (+- 5 kts
> instead of +- 10 kts, +- 5 deg instead of +- 10 deg of bank) that
> it's negligible.
>
> Winter is the best time for training. Less competition for
> tows, gliders, instructors, traffic, runways. And none of
> that icky bumpy air to make you sick on your first few
> flights. Enjoy it!

[Mark James Boyd]

Knowledge of the fundamentals of instructing is a common
requirement for all flight instructors. The FAA has produced
FAA-H-8083-9, "Aviation Instructor's Handbook" to provide
information about this subject.

For US FAA instructors, the standard for teaching is
outlined in

www.fergworld.com/cfi/pdf/FOI_Quick_Reference.pdf

The Gleim FOI prep book is excellent and cheap ($9 or so).

From reading some of the posts, it seems some students do
not get enough explanation or demonstration before being
asked to do the manuever (and then doing it wrong).
It is much better to do it right the first time (the
Law of Primacy).

I like and use the technique of programmed instruction,
and do my best to get students to do things right the
first time. Key to this has been having the students
tell me what to do while I fly the plane, or sometimes
dividing duties (they do flaps and I do stick) so
they aren't overwhelmed.

Teaching is rich with techniques, principles, and
diversity. When you find an instructor that
fits your best way of learning, you'll feel comfortable.

[Shoulbe]

Section 61.123(h) requires commercial applicants to have already obtained a
private ticket (unspecified) unless they qualify under 61.73 as military pilots
- but then only for the category and class in which those military pilots are
already qualified. So, a student pilot can not proceed immediately to the
commercial level.

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Shoulbe > wrote:
>Section 61.123(h) requires commercial applicants to have already obtained a
>private ticket (unspecified) unless they qualify under 61.73 as military pilots
>- but then only for the category and class in which those military pilots are
>already qualified. So, a student pilot can not proceed immediately to the
>commercial level.

Transition pilots can do this (transition from a private ASEL,
for example). And as you mention military. Don't know about foriegn
pilots.

But yes,

(h) Hold at least a private pilot certificate issued under this part or
meet the requirements of Sec. |61.73|

does seem to apply to those who have never held any previous pilot
certificate...

Thanks for the clarification...

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Ron Best > wrote:
>Oh this is rich. One idiot advising another......to become an instructor no
>less........
>roflmao
>
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:3f9827c4$1@darkstar...
>> I suggest two things:
>>
>> Take the Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) and the Advanced Ground
>> Instructor (AGI) written tests. Then take them to the
>> Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and get a ground
>> instructor license. This may help you understand the basics
>> of flight instructing and help you with some self-awareness
>> as a student (and what you want from your instructors).
>>
>> If you meet the requirements for time, train for and
>> get a commercial instead of a private glider license.
>> I especially recommend this for transition pilots that
>> can just take ten extra tows to meet the minimums.
>> The US PTS standards are so close (+- 5 kts
>> instead of +- 10 kts, +- 5 deg instead of +- 10 deg of bank) that
>> it's negligible.
>>
>> Winter is the best time for training. Less competition for
>> tows, gliders, instructors, traffic, runways. And none of
>> that icky bumpy air to make you sick on your first few
>> flights. Enjoy it!
>
>

[Mark James Boyd]

Actually, I recommend this to high school students and community
college students who have an interest as well. And to FBO
owners who are not otherwise instructors. I think it helps them
understanding the process of teaching and learning, even if they don't
act as instructors themselves.

I think it's also an excellent way to practice for the actual
written tests for the private or commercial license, since the questions
are so similar.

> Take the Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) and the Advanced Ground
> Instructor (AGI) written tests. Then take them to the
> Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and get a ground
> instructor license. This may help you understand the basics
> of flight instructing and help you with some self-awareness
> as a student (and what you want from your instructors).

[Lennie the Lurker]

Jack Glendening > wrote in message t>...
> Lennie the Lurker wrote:
> > Jack Glendening > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>J Goode wrote:
> >>
> >>>Oh come on. Anyone that has been around the hang gliding community (on the
> >>>web anyway) already knows what a boob "Dancebert" can be. A short Deja
> >>>search will clue anyone in on it..........
> >>
> >>But on RAS the maturity level is a bit higher so we try to help others
> >>who need it, not jump on them.
> >
> >
> > ROFLMAO
>
> Of course, that's not to say that there are _no_ juviniles on RAS.

"juviniles" eh? I would hope that even a juvenile could do better
than that.

However, you might have to put up with me until the half truths here
quit being the norm. Surrrrre, you try to help others, as long as
their ideas of what they might like aren't different than those
dictated by the mentality of the group. But, that's the nice part of
a hobby, I don't have to do it.

[Dancebert]

I've been doing this since about day three. By telling the instructor
why I'm doing what I'm doing I figure he'll be able to give better
feedback - everything from 'atta boy' to 'you just did the right thing
for the wrong reason' (though that hasn't happened yet). Thanks for
the tip.

Dancebert

p.s. BLIPMAPS rock! Thanks for all your effort.



On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:28:10 GMT, Jack Glendening
> wrote:
...
> no one mentioned the idea of continually saying, out loud, what you
>are thinking (as least much as you can, whatever seems most important at
>the time - normally you are thinking about more things than can be fully
>verbailized).
...

[HL Falbaum]

I'm surprised it has not been mentioned here yet. Excellent books exist on
"what, why, how and when" to do the things needed to fly a glider,
step-by-step. Read the "lesson for the day", discuss it, then go fly it with
an Instructor, then ask for explanations about what actually happened. Being
proactive requires knowlege.

"Gliding" by Piggott, "Flying Sailplanes" by Reichmann, and "Glider Basics"
by Knauff are such books.
Buy them all if you can.

Cheer up-there is a "learning plateau" period from time to time, which
usually occurs just before the "breakthrough".

--
Hartley Falbaum, CFIG


"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:3f982d4f$1@darkstar...
> Knowledge of the fundamentals of instructing is a common
> requirement for all flight instructors. The FAA has produced
> FAA-H-8083-9, "Aviation Instructor's Handbook" to provide
> information about this subject.
>
> For US FAA instructors, the standard for teaching is
> outlined in
>
> www.fergworld.com/cfi/pdf/FOI_Quick_Reference.pdf
>
> The Gleim FOI prep book is excellent and cheap ($9 or so).
>
> From reading some of the posts, it seems some students do
> not get enough explanation or demonstration before being
> asked to do the manuever (and then doing it wrong).
> It is much better to do it right the first time (the
> Law of Primacy).
>
> I like and use the technique of programmed instruction,
> and do my best to get students to do things right the
> first time. Key to this has been having the students
> tell me what to do while I fly the plane, or sometimes
> dividing duties (they do flaps and I do stick) so
> they aren't overwhelmed.
>
> Teaching is rich with techniques, principles, and
> diversity. When you find an instructor that
> fits your best way of learning, you'll feel comfortable.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:43:12 GMT, "HL Falbaum" >
wrote:

>I'm surprised it has not been mentioned here yet. Excellent books exist on
>"what, why, how and when" to do the things needed to fly a glider,
>step-by-step. Read the "lesson for the day", discuss it, then go fly it with
>an Instructor, then ask for explanations about what actually happened. Being
>proactive requires knowlege.
>
>"Gliding" by Piggott, "Flying Sailplanes" by Reichmann, and "Glider Basics"
>by Knauff are such books.
>Buy them all if you can.
>
>Cheer up-there is a "learning plateau" period from time to time, which
>usually occurs just before the "breakthrough".

Best to read 'Beginning Gliding' by Derek Piggott before tackling
'Gliding'. The latter is more use as you approach solo standard.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :