Thoughts on panel upgrade? [Archive]

Paul[_10_]

January 30th 17, 05:17 AM

I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to offer some perspective regarding my panel (pic here: https://s29.postimg.org/qvb54ydzb/Panel_2.jpg), it's equipped with:
* Cambridge L-NAV computer with vario display, audio vario & gear warning
* Cambridge GPS-NAV flight recorder & LCD navigation display
* Sage mechanical vario

Not pictured:
* Kobo XCSoar tablet (sunlight readable black & white flight computer)
* Android tablet, running Avare, connected to Stratux for traffic & weather

I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze badge. I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross country. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I imagine it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo XCSoar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also runs XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.

I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?

Thanks,
Paul

Peter F[_2_]

January 30th 17, 08:17 AM

Other than the aesthetics no advantage at all.

If the LNAV is working spend the money on aerotows.
If you don't have Flarm get one
Then go do loads & loads of flying especially on the iffy days.

PF

At 05:17 30 January 2017, Paul wrote:
>I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze
badge.
>=
> I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross
>cou=
>ntry. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I
>imagin=
>e it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo
>XCS=
>oar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also
>ru=
>ns XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.
>
>I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious
>aes=
>thetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with
something
>=
>like an LXNAV S100?
>
>Thanks,
>Paul
>

waremark

January 30th 17, 09:38 AM

You will want an IGC logger for badge claims, starting with silver. The Cambridge kit should be good for this, but you need to check you can obtain suitable files from it.

If not, the cheapest solution acceptable at silver is likely to be a flight recorder such as ? FR100. And if you get a Flarm unit that may include an approved logger depending on version.

Is the Kobo connected to the LNAV to obtain airspeed and vario data? Flight computers calculate wind more accurately, and the final glide information is therefore more accurate, if they have airspeed data.

XCSOAR on Kobo is a superb in flight information system. But do work hard on the ground to understand it as well as possible

Gianni Isotope

January 30th 17, 01:55 PM

I replaced the Cambridge L-Nav, GPS-Nav, electric vario and LCD navigation display with an LxNav S80 and Nano (the S100 wasn't available at the time). I believe the biggest advantage is that it simplified my instrument panel -- three instruments on my panel (and the GPS recorder behind the seat) were all replaced with one 80mm instrument. I have flown with the S80 for two years now and am very happy with its performance. If/when I add Flarm, the S80 will display that information as well.

The S80/S100 also have a nice moving map display for navigation, so you can ditch both of your tablets. Less things to look at inside = more time to scan outside for thermals and traffic.

[email protected]

January 30th 17, 02:16 PM

krasw

January 30th 17, 02:33 PM

maanantai 30. tammikuuta 2017 7.17.59 UTC+2 Paul kirjoitti:
>
> I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Add flarm if you fly with other gliders, otherwise you are set-up for serious cross-country. L-Nav is average vario, unfortunately most of the new varios are not better. L-Nav/GPS-Nav is pretty intuitive to use.

For much improved aesthetics you could refinish the panel with nextel paint and new labels.

glidergreg

January 30th 17, 03:13 PM

On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 11:17:59 PM UTC-6, Paul wrote:
> I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to offer some perspective regarding my panel (pic here: https://s29.postimg.org/qvb54ydzb/Panel_2.jpg), it's equipped with:
> * Cambridge L-NAV computer with vario display, audio vario & gear warning
> * Cambridge GPS-NAV flight recorder & LCD navigation display
> * Sage mechanical vario
>
> Not pictured:
> * Kobo XCSoar tablet (sunlight readable black & white flight computer)
> * Android tablet, running Avare, connected to Stratux for traffic & weather
>
> I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze badge.. I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross country. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I imagine it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo XCSoar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also runs XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.
>
> I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Go for a LxNav S100 and an Oudie, nice combination. Pretty state of the art too. May want to also check out the new Nano 4 when they are available, I have a Nano 3 and use it as my primary IGC flight recorder. Downloads IGC traces to my phone then it's a snap to distribute to OLC or where ever.

Kevin Brooker

January 30th 17, 06:41 PM

I agree with all of the advice given so far especially about saving cash to fly more. The only real downside of keeping the CAI stuff is repair and availability of p[arts. I use the CAI stuff and buy it up as it becomes available so I have parts to keep it going. By now I could have had a fully modern system with the total $$$ spent but it was laid out over years so didn't hurt too much.

January 30th 17, 07:52 PM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:17:59 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to offer some perspective regarding my panel (pic here: https://s29.postimg.org/qvb54ydzb/Panel_2.jpg), it's equipped with:
> * Cambridge L-NAV computer with vario display, audio vario & gear warning
> * Cambridge GPS-NAV flight recorder & LCD navigation display
> * Sage mechanical vario
>
> Not pictured:
> * Kobo XCSoar tablet (sunlight readable black & white flight computer)
> * Android tablet, running Avare, connected to Stratux for traffic & weather
>
> I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze badge.. I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross country. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I imagine it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo XCSoar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also runs XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.
>
> I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

the SN10, and CAI303 are both excellent instruments. if you like xcsoar stick with it. as far as a panel upgrade is concerned, you may simply have this one reconfigured and made more pretty.

if you do have it spruced up, think about functionality and what you most actively need. i like to put instruments with buttons on the left side of the panel, so you can use your free hand to manipulate them without having to trade hands on the stick. switches and fuses are also good to have on the left because you can easily access them with your free hand.

also it makes good sense to put more important/pertinent informaion near the top of the panel. specifically, the vario and the airspeed indicator. the altimeter is not needed quite as often. plus, most soaring programs (xc soar, oudie, lx and c-nav) all have altitude readouts on them, and are prominantly displayed.

your currently layout is not bad! i would put the radio into a 57mm hole off center, and move the temperature gauge down to the bottom of the panel. i'd also get rid of that vertical vario thingy (whatever it is) to the right of the altimeter.

That speaker takes up valuable panel space too. it doesn't need to be mounted on the face of the panel, it could be wired to the support bracket behind the panel, or even moved back behind your head. that frees up some space, de-clutters the panel.

those are my thoughts on "panel theory" X-D

hopefully that helps if you decide to have it re-done.

Andy

Bruce Hoult

January 30th 17, 08:13 PM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 10:52:13 PM UTC+3, ND wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:17:59 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> > I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to offer some perspective regarding my panel (pic here: https://s29.postimg.org/qvb54ydzb/Panel_2.jpg), it's equipped with:
> > * Cambridge L-NAV computer with vario display, audio vario & gear warning
> > * Cambridge GPS-NAV flight recorder & LCD navigation display
> > * Sage mechanical vario
> >
> > Not pictured:
> > * Kobo XCSoar tablet (sunlight readable black & white flight computer)
> > * Android tablet, running Avare, connected to Stratux for traffic & weather
> >
> > I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze badge. I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross country. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I imagine it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo XCSoar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also runs XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.
> >
> > I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Paul
>
> the SN10, and CAI303 are both excellent instruments. if you like xcsoar stick with it. as far as a panel upgrade is concerned, you may simply have this one reconfigured and made more pretty.
>
> if you do have it spruced up, think about functionality and what you most actively need. i like to put instruments with buttons on the left side of the panel, so you can use your free hand to manipulate them without having to trade hands on the stick. switches and fuses are also good to have on the left because you can easily access them with your free hand.
>
> also it makes good sense to put more important/pertinent informaion near the top of the panel. specifically, the vario and the airspeed indicator. the altimeter is not needed quite as often. plus, most soaring programs (xc soar, oudie, lx and c-nav) all have altitude readouts on them, and are prominantly displayed.
>
> your currently layout is not bad! i would put the radio into a 57mm hole off center, and move the temperature gauge down to the bottom of the panel. i'd also get rid of that vertical vario thingy (whatever it is) to the right of the altimeter.
>
> That speaker takes up valuable panel space too. it doesn't need to be mounted on the face of the panel, it could be wired to the support bracket behind the panel, or even moved back behind your head. that frees up some space, de-clutters the panel.
>
> those are my thoughts on "panel theory" X-D
>
> hopefully that helps if you decide to have it re-done.
>
> Andy

"Vertical vario thing"

I assumed that's a G meter?

Paul[_10_]

January 30th 17, 08:59 PM

Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).

My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available.. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!

Ben Coleman

January 30th 17, 09:13 PM

On Tuesday, 31 January 2017 07:59:46 UTC+11, Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
>
> My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!

I changed out my lnav/gps-nav for a S100 last season. I was tired of making cables to integrate the Lnav with my XCSoar tablet and never quite getting it to work - though that doesn't impact soaring performance. I have been very happy with the S100 and the clean integration using bluetooth. The beep generator (vario) seems to work well. I am using electronic TE compensation as I found I had a TE leak which was probably impacting my Lnav performance as they are generally held in high regard yet mine never seemed quite right.

Cheers Ben

January 30th 17, 09:25 PM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:59:46 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
>
> My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!

For your second soaring season, these guys are putting you on the right track: Clean up the existing panel and connect the Kobo to the Cambridge stuff.. There are adapters/cables to connect your GPS-NAV (the box the L-NAV and square Cambridge display connect to) to Oudie, I assume Kobo is essentially the same as Oudie.
Try to move the radio up so you can easily see what you're adjusting, less workload if you're landing out. Where the speaker is/was?
Jim

Dan Marotta

January 30th 17, 10:05 PM

I was able to interface an Android to a Cambridge 302 using a K6BT
serial to Bluetooth converter. It's one of the more expensive
converters on the market and you can certainly find something less
expensive.

When I upgraded to a ClearNav system and added a PowerFlarm, I retained
the K6BT and added another one so that my wife's Android could still
enjoy receiving all of the information via Bluetooth while my ClearNav
system worked via serial cables. We fly a two-seater. I used simple
RJ-45 splitters to implement the wiring.

To get your silver badge and beyond you'll need a calibrated and sealed
recorder. You'll probably need to send the Cambridge unit to Gary at
ClearNav or Paul at Cumulus Soaring or Rex at Williams or Richard at
Craggy or... All of us old timers got all of our badges and diamonds
with a camera and barograph (which we had to send in for
calibration/sealing). The logger is much easier to get everything in
order. You'll still need to do the flying yourself!

Good Luck!

On 1/30/2017 1:59 PM, Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
>
> My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

January 30th 17, 10:07 PM

Oh, yes - the speaker. Get it out of the panel! Especially since it's
not in use. That magnet can wreck havoc on your compass (don't ask me
how I know).

On 1/30/2017 2:25 PM, JS wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:59:46 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:
>> Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
>>
>> My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!
> For your second soaring season, these guys are putting you on the right track: Clean up the existing panel and connect the Kobo to the Cambridge stuff. There are adapters/cables to connect your GPS-NAV (the box the L-NAV and square Cambridge display connect to) to Oudie, I assume Kobo is essentially the same as Oudie.
> Try to move the radio up so you can easily see what you're adjusting, less workload if you're landing out. Where the speaker is/was?
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

January 30th 17, 11:18 PM

Agreed.

To the OP, unless you fly at sea level, please get used to setting the altimeter to field elevation, all aero maps use altitude above sea level. It is also good to get used to it now before getting much further.
If need be, use a small piece of white tape in the middle of the altimeter with field elevation written on it as a reminder. I do that when flying at a contest site. As an example, HHSC/Elmira is on a hill next to a valley, quite a difference between the two elevations. It would also be a hassle doing a final glide over ridges to a valley airport and trying to figure out if you will clear terrain.

You may also want to inquire about getting your airspeed calibrated/serviced, yours is quite a bit off "0" unless it was really windy when you took the picture. ;-)

NOTE: I'm an ex-CFIG, contest and badge pilot in regards to altimeter setting.

waremark

January 31st 17, 02:24 AM

Not familiar with what you have got on your Android tablet - does it give you audible warnings before airspace infringement?

George Haeh

January 31st 17, 02:47 AM

There's a number of new varios that display a bunch of navigation data on
an
itty-bitty display. A flight computer works better for that.

There's a lot of integration available to link vario, Flarm and computer;
so for
new vario I'd be looking for one that supports integration, but before
getting a
new vario, get a Flarm.

Paul[_10_]

January 31st 17, 03:30 AM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 8:24:56 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> Not familiar with what you have got on your Android tablet - does it give you audible warnings before airspace infringement?

I'll probably use my phone, which of course has a speaker, but I don't know whether Avare (the software) has that feature - you can download it at Google Play for free, if you want to check it out.

January 31st 17, 04:39 AM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 7:31:00 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 8:24:56 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> > Not familiar with what you have got on your Android tablet - does it give you audible warnings before airspace infringement?
>
> I'll probably use my phone, which of course has a speaker, but I don't know whether Avare (the software) has that feature - you can download it at Google Play for free, if you want to check it out.

For those unfamiliar, Avare is a power flying app. It's great for current sectionals and detailed airport info including approach and departure plates, and will connect to other services. You can set the glide ratio of your aircraft for those pesky power-off approaches.
Well worth hitting the "Donate" button on.
Jim

January 31st 17, 01:19 PM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 3:13:42 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 10:52:13 PM UTC+3, ND wrote:
> > On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 12:17:59 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> > > I'm hoping some of you might be kind enough to offer some perspective regarding my panel (pic here: https://s29.postimg.org/qvb54ydzb/Panel_2.jpg), it's equipped with:
> > > * Cambridge L-NAV computer with vario display, audio vario & gear warning
> > > * Cambridge GPS-NAV flight recorder & LCD navigation display
> > > * Sage mechanical vario
> > >
> > > Not pictured:
> > > * Kobo XCSoar tablet (sunlight readable black & white flight computer)
> > > * Android tablet, running Avare, connected to Stratux for traffic & weather
> > >
> > > I've been flying gliders one season, and managed to earn the bronze badge. I plan to start on the silver badge this spring, and hope to fly cross country. I've only used the Cambridge as a vario, and it works fine; I imagine it's navigation interface is clunky compared to my tablets. The Kobo XCSoar tablet gives lots of glider flight data, and the Android tablet also runs XCSoar, in case of a Kobo failure.
> > >
> > > I imagine some of you have been down this road. Other than the obvious aesthetics, what's the benefit of replacing the Cambridge gear with something like an LXNAV S100?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Paul
> >
> > the SN10, and CAI303 are both excellent instruments. if you like xcsoar stick with it. as far as a panel upgrade is concerned, you may simply have this one reconfigured and made more pretty.
> >
> > if you do have it spruced up, think about functionality and what you most actively need. i like to put instruments with buttons on the left side of the panel, so you can use your free hand to manipulate them without having to trade hands on the stick. switches and fuses are also good to have on the left because you can easily access them with your free hand.
> >
> > also it makes good sense to put more important/pertinent informaion near the top of the panel. specifically, the vario and the airspeed indicator. the altimeter is not needed quite as often. plus, most soaring programs (xc soar, oudie, lx and c-nav) all have altitude readouts on them, and are prominantly displayed.
> >
> > your currently layout is not bad! i would put the radio into a 57mm hole off center, and move the temperature gauge down to the bottom of the panel. i'd also get rid of that vertical vario thingy (whatever it is) to the right of the altimeter.
> >
> > That speaker takes up valuable panel space too. it doesn't need to be mounted on the face of the panel, it could be wired to the support bracket behind the panel, or even moved back behind your head. that frees up some space, de-clutters the panel.
> >
> > those are my thoughts on "panel theory" X-D
> >
> > hopefully that helps if you decide to have it re-done.
> >
> > Andy
>
> "Vertical vario thing"
>
> I assumed that's a G meter?

good call. couldn't think of what it might be last night.

January 31st 17, 01:25 PM

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 3:59:46 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
>
> My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!

yeah man! get a label maker from staples, and get rid of unnecessary stuff. you can even fill in the holes with some glass and cut new holes in that same panel if you wanna go the low cost route.

January 31st 17, 01:29 PM

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:25:44 AM UTC-5, ND wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 3:59:46 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> > Thanks for all the input! I'm really glad to hear my vario should still be able to function OK (not hobbled by old pressure transducers or slow CPU).
> >
> > My Kobo isn't tied to the vario, but I'm going to look into doing that, as waremark mentioned. The odd vertical thing is a G meter, by the way. The dash speaker is inop, there's a speaker in back, so that space is available. I think I'll just paint, label and maybe rearrange (thx for the suggestions, ND) the panel, and leave well enough alone... for now!
>
> yeah man! get a label maker from staples, and get rid of unnecessary stuff. you can even fill in the holes with some glass and cut new holes in that same panel if you wanna go the low cost route.

do you use a suction cup mount to the canopy for your phone/navagation app? you may consider getting a ram mount for your phone, attach it to the panel. again, consider putting that on the far left.

Dan Marotta

January 31st 17, 03:29 PM

Depending upon configuration XCSoar gives very good audible and visual
airspace warnings.

On 1/30/2017 7:24 PM, waremark wrote:
> Not familiar with what you have got on your Android tablet - does it give you audible warnings before airspace infringement?

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta

January 31st 17, 03:34 PM

Phones generally are not very readable in direct sunlight. Look into a
Dell Streak 5 and load it with XCSoar (free). A quick look on eBay
finds a Streak 5
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Streak-5-M01M-GSM-5-Android-Tablet-Smartphone-Black-16GB-Unlocked-/391688090085?hash=item5b326df1e5:g:NeAAAOSwo4pYimD L>
(NOT a 7) currently bid at $17.50 and fully functional. I have three of
them, one in use and two spares. They are that good!

On 1/30/2017 8:30 PM, Paul wrote:
> On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 8:24:56 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
>> Not familiar with what you have got on your Android tablet - does it give you audible warnings before airspace infringement?
> I'll probably use my phone, which of course has a speaker, but I don't know whether Avare (the software) has that feature - you can download it at Google Play for free, if you want to check it out.

--
Dan, 5J

OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net

January 31st 17, 03:42 PM

All of the information above, centered on which instruments to get, is great. A couple of points about the behind the scenes part of your panel. Before doing any work you should make a schematic of what goes to where, both electrically and airlines. This may be tedious but will be important during the rebuild. Seriously consider rewiring everything behind the panel. I imagine it is a hodge-podge of wires from years to additions and subtractions. Scary? Maybe but rewiring, and making a schematic, pays dividends when you are getting everything working and later mods. Guess what I am doing this winter on my "new" ship? See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations for some helpful hints. Best of luck. - John

waremark

January 31st 17, 11:14 PM

He has a Kobo. This is a monochrome eink reader a bit like a Kindle. It runs XCSOAR well and is superbly sunlight readable. Drawbacks are that it has no audio, and as it comes new it does not have a GPS source. People add GPS and vario chips, such as the combined Bluefly device. With the Bluefly the internal battery lasts about 5 hours.

Paul[_10_]

February 1st 17, 05:28 AM

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:03 AM UTC-6, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> All of the information above, centered on which instruments to get, is great. A couple of points about the behind the scenes part of your panel. Before doing any work you should make a schematic of what goes to where, both electrically and airlines. This may be tedious but will be important during the rebuild. Seriously consider rewiring everything behind the panel. I imagine it is a hodge-podge of wires from years to additions and subtractions. Scary? Maybe but rewiring, and making a schematic, pays dividends when you are getting everything working and later mods. Guess what I am doing this winter on my "new" ship? See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations for some helpful hints. Best of luck. - John

Thank you for the link, John, it's very timely. I removed my panel yesterday, sanded and primed it today; tomorrow I'll finish paint and reinstall it.. The wiring isn't too bad (not like the "rats nest" in your photo), but there are a few things I'm tending to, and I'll be doing it with a bit more of an appreciation for best-practices, thanks to your presentation.

John Bojack J4

February 1st 17, 02:49 PM

I think thats a great panel.....most important instruments large and front and center (airspeed and varios)

Is your airspeed needle on 20??

February 1st 17, 02:53 PM

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 12:28:54 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:03 AM UTC-6, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > All of the information above, centered on which instruments to get, is great. A couple of points about the behind the scenes part of your panel. Before doing any work you should make a schematic of what goes to where, both electrically and airlines. This may be tedious but will be important during the rebuild. Seriously consider rewiring everything behind the panel. I imagine it is a hodge-podge of wires from years to additions and subtractions. Scary? Maybe but rewiring, and making a schematic, pays dividends when you are getting everything working and later mods. Guess what I am doing this winter on my "new" ship? See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations for some helpful hints. Best of luck. - John
>
> Thank you for the link, John, it's very timely. I removed my panel yesterday, sanded and primed it today; tomorrow I'll finish paint and reinstall it. The wiring isn't too bad (not like the "rats nest" in your photo), but there are a few things I'm tending to, and I'll be doing it with a bit more of an appreciation for best-practices, thanks to your presentation.

mix up some resin with flock and plug those speaker holes + other unneccessary ones. then re-prime and paint. you'll be glad you did. definitely use a label maker for a clean appearance if you're going through all the trouble already.

Finally, send us a link to a pic when you're done. i'd love to see the transformation.

OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net

February 1st 17, 07:52 PM

definitely use a label maker for a clean appearance if you're going through all the trouble already.

==============

As to label making, I have used these guys to make engraved placards for my panel work. Their stuff is 1) inexpensive, 2) very professional looking, 3) they stay stuck! I make up my simple designs/requirements in PowerPoint with notes on size, color, etc. Be sure to order a few with your tail number for the panel - you will find other uses for them.

Matthew Yoczik
Aircraft Engravers
(860) 653-2780 ph
(860) 653-7324 fax
http://www.engravers.net/placards-std.html

- John

OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net

February 1st 17, 07:56 PM

Airlines - Replace them while you are working on the panel and use color coding. Makes it much easier to figure out what is going where, and is sexy to boot. Available at http://wingsandwheels.com.

Pitot - Red
TE - Green
Static - Blue
Capacity - Yellow

Richard[_9_]

February 2nd 17, 02:04 AM

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 6:53:58 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 12:28:54 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:03 AM UTC-6, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > All of the information above, centered on which instruments to get, is great. A couple of points about the behind the scenes part of your panel.. Before doing any work you should make a schematic of what goes to where, both electrically and airlines. This may be tedious but will be important during the rebuild. Seriously consider rewiring everything behind the panel. I imagine it is a hodge-podge of wires from years to additions and subtractions. Scary? Maybe but rewiring, and making a schematic, pays dividends when you are getting everything working and later mods. Guess what I am doing this winter on my "new" ship? See http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations for some helpful hints. Best of luck. - John
> >
> > Thank you for the link, John, it's very timely. I removed my panel yesterday, sanded and primed it today; tomorrow I'll finish paint and reinstall it. The wiring isn't too bad (not like the "rats nest" in your photo), but there are a few things I'm tending to, and I'll be doing it with a bit more of an appreciation for best-practices, thanks to your presentation.
>
> mix up some resin with flock and plug those speaker holes + other unneccessary ones. then re-prime and paint. you'll be glad you did. definitely use a label maker for a clean appearance if you're going through all the trouble already.
>
> Finally, send us a link to a pic when you're done. i'd love to see the transformation.

More stuff on panels

http://www.craggyaero.com/Panel%20Mfg/Fiberglass%20panel%20instructions.pdf
http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/Instrument%20Hole%20Templates.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Surge

February 2nd 17, 03:48 AM

Slight thread jack:
There are some good tips are some really good tips on this newsgroup when it comes to panel upgrades and electrical systems.

I redid a panel upgrade last year and it went from this:
https://s27.postimg.org/ojdfgpfmb/Nimbus2_panel_before_20170201_190105.jpg
to this:
https://s28.postimg.org/j14qyy8rh/20160924_164751_640.jpg
Just need to fix the shroud which the previous owner messed up.

I used a Brother label printer for the labels, the two master battery switch setup with common bus behind the panel (master fuses at batteries), individual switches and fuses to each instrument (automotive blade fuse block behind panel) and XT60 RC connectors to the instruments so that they can be removed with ease (I couldn't source Anderson Powerpole connectors where I live and it was too expensive to ship).
Thick walled silicone hose is cheap (sourced from China via eBay), comes in various colours and works extremely well. Removing instruments is easy and it reseals perfectly every time.
I see a lot of guys using those huge (ugly) master switches but there are smaller more elegant switches available which can switch 10A to 20A DC if you're willing to browse a few spec sheets.
One can do a first class job without having to break the bank.
Thanks for all the tips guys - keep them coming.

John Wells

February 2nd 17, 06:34 PM

Hi Paul,

Is that a Mini Nimbus? (Or maybe a Standard Cirrus?). Either way, I've just redone my panel on my 1978 Mini Nimbus, and decided to DIY an openvario (www.openvario.org). It runs XCSOAR and integrates nicely with my existing lxnav S7 and FLARM.

Before and after pic here:

http://i.imgur.com/LIAgqt2.jpg

I also took the opportunity to clean up all the rats nest of wiring and pneumatics, and made each individual piece of equipment switchable between battery A & B in-flight (without interruption) using a MOSFET switching circuit.

All DIY, other than the pre-fabricated panel blank (not strictly necessary, but the old one was aluminium and I wanted to make it safer)... oh and I bought a FlarmView.

None of this is necessary of course, but you can achieve a lot with a limited budget and some perseverance.

Paul[_10_]

February 3rd 17, 03:10 AM

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 12:34:18 PM UTC-6, John Wells wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Is that a Mini Nimbus? (Or maybe a Standard Cirrus?). Either way, I've just redone my panel on my 1978 Mini Nimbus, and decided to DIY an openvario (www.openvario.org). It runs XCSOAR and integrates nicely with my existing lxnav S7 and FLARM.
>
> Before and after pic here:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/LIAgqt2.jpg
>
>
> I also took the opportunity to clean up all the rats nest of wiring and pneumatics, and made each individual piece of equipment switchable between battery A & B in-flight (without interruption) using a MOSFET switching circuit.
>
> All DIY, other than the pre-fabricated panel blank (not strictly necessary, but the old one was aluminium and I wanted to make it safer)... oh and I bought a FlarmView.
>
> None of this is necessary of course, but you can achieve a lot with a limited budget and some perseverance.

Nice panel, John! I've spoken with a few people about openvario, and gave it a lot of thought. Stefan (stefly.aero) sells a very reasonably priced openvario kit, of which I'm sure you're aware, but others might not be. He has a very nice stick controller for openvario... it'd go real well with your setup!

My glider is a Discus, BTW. I'm going to get the panel painted, put it back together, and fly the **** out of it this summer. I'm pretty new to this stuff, and I'm sure I'll be able to make a more educated decision about panel upgrades next winter. There's so much to consider, with transponders, Flarm, varios, etc. There's also this Kraco 8-track player that I'd like to install, but I'm not sure if I can get it to work with my bluetooth subwoofer! ;-)

February 3rd 17, 04:26 AM

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 7:10:02 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:
> On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 12:34:18 PM UTC-6, John Wells wrote:
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Is that a Mini Nimbus? (Or maybe a Standard Cirrus?). Either way, I've just redone my panel on my 1978 Mini Nimbus, and decided to DIY an openvario (www.openvario.org). It runs XCSOAR and integrates nicely with my existing lxnav S7 and FLARM.
> >
> > Before and after pic here:
> >
> > http://i.imgur.com/LIAgqt2.jpg
> >
> >
> > I also took the opportunity to clean up all the rats nest of wiring and pneumatics, and made each individual piece of equipment switchable between battery A & B in-flight (without interruption) using a MOSFET switching circuit.
> >
> > All DIY, other than the pre-fabricated panel blank (not strictly necessary, but the old one was aluminium and I wanted to make it safer)... oh and I bought a FlarmView.
> >
> > None of this is necessary of course, but you can achieve a lot with a limited budget and some perseverance.
>
> Nice panel, John! I've spoken with a few people about openvario, and gave it a lot of thought. Stefan (stefly.aero) sells a very reasonably priced openvario kit, of which I'm sure you're aware, but others might not be. He has a very nice stick controller for openvario... it'd go real well with your setup!
>
> My glider is a Discus, BTW. I'm going to get the panel painted, put it back together, and fly the **** out of it this summer. I'm pretty new to this stuff, and I'm sure I'll be able to make a more educated decision about panel upgrades next winter. There's so much to consider, with transponders, Flarm, varios, etc. There's also this Kraco 8-track player that I'd like to install, but I'm not sure if I can get it to work with my bluetooth subwoofer! ;-)

Kraco 8-tracks are a bit of a pain, you might look into the Panasonics.
Weight and balance can be a problem, plus the tapes don't easily fit out the vent window where you will feel they need to go.
A friend had overheating problems with his Open Vario. Look into that before starting the project (next year).
Jim

Surge

February 3rd 17, 05:34 AM

On Friday, 3 February 2017 06:26:33 UTC+2, JS wrote:
> A friend had overheating problems with his Open Vario. Look into that before starting the project (next year).
> Jim

I built my own XCSoar glide computer (Raspberry Pi 2B) and I added a 40mm DC fan underneath the case running at reduced speed (couple of diodes in series) for ventilation.
The biggest source of heat in my case is the 7 inch, 1000 nit touch screen.
I'm sure an Open Vario case could be modified in a similar way to sort out heat issues. I didn't run into any RFI issues with the fan but YMMV.

Paul[_10_]

February 3rd 17, 05:57 AM

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:34:25 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> On Friday, 3 February 2017 06:26:33 UTC+2, JS wrote:
> > A friend had overheating problems with his Open Vario. Look into that before starting the project (next year).
> > Jim
>
> I built my own XCSoar glide computer (Raspberry Pi 2B) and I added a 40mm DC fan underneath the case running at reduced speed (couple of diodes in series) for ventilation.
> The biggest source of heat in my case is the 7 inch, 1000 nit touch screen.
> I'm sure an Open Vario case could be modified in a similar way to sort out heat issues. I didn't run into any RFI issues with the fan but YMMV.

That sounds pretty cool! Does it work well? Do you have any details/photos?

Surge

February 4th 17, 05:37 AM

On Friday, 3 February 2017 07:57:40 UTC+2, Paul wrote:
> That sounds pretty cool! Does it work well? Do you have any details/photos?

Some photos
https://s29.postimg.org/700iji3ev/pisoar1.jpg
https://s29.postimg.org/j35u72eh3/pisoar2.jpg
https://s29.postimg.org/f82g4hvbb/pisoar3.jpg
https://s29.postimg.org/wmr9qihtz/pisoar4.jpg
https://s29.postimg.org/pktc4be87/pisoar5.jpg
https://s29.postimg.org/76it0c1xj/pisoar6.jpg

I used single side, copper clad, FR4 PC board soldered together to make the case. Don't do this unless you like to itch and make all your tools blunt! In hindsight an aluminium case may cost more and be a bit more difficult to manufacture but it would be better than working with FR4 board and look more professional to boot.
I made an oversized case because I have plenty of space behind the panel and to leave space for additional circuity later.
The screen is a 1000 nit, 7" Xenarc resistive touch screen (works with gloves) with HDMI connection to the Pi. GPS source is from a FlarmMouse via an S80 vario into RS232 to USB cable (using RS232 levels - not TTL). I'm not a fan of wireless technologies such as Bluetooth since they both introduce RFI and are themselves prone to external interference so I stuck with shielded, wired connections.
The 40mm DC fan is at the bottom and a covered vent at the top rear.

The Raspberry Pi 2B runs XCSoar on framebuffer so there are no overheads from a window manager. I can still launch an LXDE window manager to use a web browser once I've quit XCSoar.

The main reasons why I built it is because XCSoar rocks, I like tinkering and I didn't want to spend $2000+ on a commercial solution that I can't customise later or find out X years down the line that the device is no longer supported (please upgrade).
The OpenVario project looks like a nice solution without requiring R&D. If I had to do it again I'd probably go that route than build my own solution.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

February 4th 17, 12:48 PM

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 21:37:46 -0800, Surge wrote:

> I used single side, copper clad, FR4 PC board soldered together to make
> the case. Don't do this unless you like to itch and make all your tools
> blunt! In hindsight an aluminium case may cost more and be a bit more
> difficult to manufacture but it would be better than working with FR4
> board and look more professional to boot.
>
That sounds good to me. I've made up a number of bits for my Libelle
this way, though I use epoxy (24 hour Araldite) rather than solder to
join the boards. Here's a description and photos of a replacement battery
box lid that also serves as a logger mounting:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/battery_lid.html

The main platform is a sandwich of 1.6mm epoxy board top and bottom with
3mm balsa in the middle so its a sort-of mix&match with my Libelle, which
has balsa wing skins.

I've also used epoxyboard to build the adapters you need to attach a PNA's
mounting clip to a RAM flexi-mount and to make a latching mechanism to
clip a Glassfaser 'bum bag' onto the Libelle's wing assembly lever
attachment points.

If you don't want copper-clad epoxy-board, plain epoxyboard is readily
available as model building material in a variety of thicknesses from
0.2mm to 6mm (1/128" to 1/4"). Copper clad PCB is typically 1.6mm or
0.8mm. I think no workshop is complete without some of this in the supply
cupboard. I normally use 0.4, 0.8 and 1.6mm sheet.

In the UK I get epoxyboard from HobbyPlastic,
http://www.hobbyplastic.co.uk/ but in the USA I'd use Aerospace Composite
Products, http://www.acp-composites.com/ if the local model shop doesn't
stock it.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Paul[_10_]

February 5th 17, 05:01 AM

On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 11:37:47 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
> On Friday, 3 February 2017 07:57:40 UTC+2, Paul wrote:
> > That sounds pretty cool! Does it work well? Do you have any details/photos?
>
> Some photos
> https://s29.postimg.org/700iji3ev/pisoar1.jpg
> https://s29.postimg.org/j35u72eh3/pisoar2.jpg
> https://s29.postimg.org/f82g4hvbb/pisoar3.jpg
> https://s29.postimg.org/wmr9qihtz/pisoar4.jpg
> https://s29.postimg.org/pktc4be87/pisoar5.jpg
> https://s29.postimg.org/76it0c1xj/pisoar6.jpg
>
> I used single side, copper clad, FR4 PC board soldered together to make the case. Don't do this unless you like to itch and make all your tools blunt! In hindsight an aluminium case may cost more and be a bit more difficult to manufacture but it would be better than working with FR4 board and look more professional to boot.
> I made an oversized case because I have plenty of space behind the panel and to leave space for additional circuity later.
> The screen is a 1000 nit, 7" Xenarc resistive touch screen (works with gloves) with HDMI connection to the Pi. GPS source is from a FlarmMouse via an S80 vario into RS232 to USB cable (using RS232 levels - not TTL). I'm not a fan of wireless technologies such as Bluetooth since they both introduce RFI and are themselves prone to external interference so I stuck with shielded, wired connections.
> The 40mm DC fan is at the bottom and a covered vent at the top rear.
>
> The Raspberry Pi 2B runs XCSoar on framebuffer so there are no overheads from a window manager. I can still launch an LXDE window manager to use a web browser once I've quit XCSoar.
>
> The main reasons why I built it is because XCSoar rocks, I like tinkering and I didn't want to spend $2000+ on a commercial solution that I can't customise later or find out X years down the line that the device is no longer supported (please upgrade).
> The OpenVario project looks like a nice solution without requiring R&D. If I had to do it again I'd probably go that route than build my own solution.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

February 5th 17, 12:47 PM

On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 22:11:59 -0800, Surge wrote:

> On Saturday, 4 February 2017 14:50:44 UTC+2, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> If you don't want copper-clad epoxy-board, plain epoxyboard is readily
>> available as model building material in a variety of thicknesses from
>> 0.2mm to 6mm (1/128" to 1/4").
>
> I used the copper clad board primarily to help keep RFI from the Pi and
> 12V to 5V buck converter inside the case. I used to think only ferrous
> metals could be used for shielding but evidently non-ferrous metals also
> work.

Yes, I understood that - an excellent idea.

My background for this stuff comes from model building, so I naturally
think 'epoxy' for joining any type of epoxyboard. If I was making some
thing similar I'd probably assemble it with epoxy and then solder wire
links on to connect all the copper areas electrically.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |