Winch Way Is Up !!

[Craig Freeman]

It's intriguing how much attention any post about winch launching seems to
generate here on RAS. I must admit I, like most here in the USA, cried
"foul" or was it"fool" any time one would suggest that winching could be
a viable alternative to the much perferred aero tow. Shame on me. Perhaps
it's time to lift our head out of the herd and get a new view. The recent
thread on which type of launch is safest seemed to conclude that each
launch is equally dangerous if done improperly and each launch is safe
when done properly. Problem is we in the USA don't know what we are
doing and learning can be a painful experience. Painful perhaps, but
worth it.
Here is my story. Soaring in West Texas had been on the decline for
the past fifteen years. Only a handful of sailplanes left,(four to be
exact), and no tow plane in sight. Sounding familiar? Well that was two
years ago. We simply did not have the money to purchase a tow plane or
the activity to attract a commercial operation. Our salvation was a
GOOD WINCH. The story of building a good winch and learning to operate
it could take up most the rest of the winter. However the proof is in
pudding, or in this case the bank account. Our club has more than tripled
in membership and is growing. We are able to support our activities and
flying is on the rebound in West Texas. Aero tow will always have a
place but do not discount what a GOOD WINCH can do for soaring in your
club. The economics simply cannot be overlooked. Winches generate real
revenue and provide for more flights for the buck than any other method
of launch, and can do it just as safely as aero tow.

Cheers,

Craig

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
(Craig Freeman) wrote:

> It's intriguing how much attention any post about winch launching seems to
> generate here on RAS. I must admit I, like most here in the USA, cried
> "foul" or was it"fool" any time one would suggest that winching could be
> a viable alternative to the much perferred aero tow. Shame on me. Perhaps
> it's time to lift our head out of the herd and get a new view. The recent
> thread on which type of launch is safest seemed to conclude that each
> launch is equally dangerous if done improperly and each launch is safe
> when done properly. Problem is we in the USA don't know what we are
> doing and learning can be a painful experience. Painful perhaps, but
> worth it.
> Here is my story. Soaring in West Texas had been on the decline for
> the past fifteen years. Only a handful of sailplanes left,(four to be
> exact), and no tow plane in sight. Sounding familiar? Well that was two
> years ago. We simply did not have the money to purchase a tow plane or
> the activity to attract a commercial operation. Our salvation was a
> GOOD WINCH. The story of building a good winch and learning to operate
> it could take up most the rest of the winter. However the proof is in
> pudding, or in this case the bank account. Our club has more than tripled
> in membership and is growing. We are able to support our activities and
> flying is on the rebound in West Texas. Aero tow will always have a
> place but do not discount what a GOOD WINCH can do for soaring in your
> club. The economics simply cannot be overlooked. Winches generate real
> revenue and provide for more flights for the buck than any other method
> of launch, and can do it just as safely as aero tow.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Craig


Well said Craig,

The significance of your putting the phrase "GOOD WINCH" in all caps may
be lost on some who have not had the pleasure of launching from or
driving a well designed and well made winch. I believe that much of the
negative attitude about winches in the USA comes from our experience
with poorly designed and built winches. Just about anyone can cobble
together a winch that will launch a 1-26 once a day. It takes more
thought and good engineering to produce a machine that will efficiently
launch heavy two-seaters all day, day in and day out. Winches ain't
rocket science and there is no need to reinvent the wheel. The
characteristics of a good winch are well known. Just take a look at the
European winches. Or, in the USA, go visit the Memphis soaring club.
They now have the winch that once belonged to my club (we had to give it
up due to moving to an airport with crossing runways - no room for winch
cable). I miss the winch.

Actually, for small operations, auto tow using a pulley on the tow car
is just as good (or better than) a winch and a heck of a lot cheaper.
With 4000 ft of dacron rope you can routinely launch to 1600-2000 agl or
more depending on the glider and headwind. The beauty of the pulley
launch is the towcar only needs to go 25-30 miles/hour at most. Thus,
you don't have to have pavement and it is easier on the car. Use an
automatic transmission vehicle and just keep it in low gear. Nothing
simpler than that. Ground launch this way requires a wing runner, a
towcar driver, and a spotter minimum. The turnaround time is slower than
a winch. You will also need a fairly wide area too as you will have
little control over where the rope falls. Still, we have done as many as
30 launches in a day with the pulley auto launch.

[Bob Johnson]

Actually, Craig is being too modest. In a few months of spare time work this
spring, he single-handedly engineered and built a double drum machine that is
the smoothest, sweetest running winch I've ever driven. It's orders of
magnitude better than the barnyard bailing wire wonders that we sometimes have
to work with. And with 5000 ft of Plasma plastic rope spooled on, not only are
our winch worries at an end, we have also eliminated any remaining headaches
from the tow line part of the launch method.

Sure, he's still got a few bugs to be worked out over the winter, like will
the electrical system pull the air conditioner all day long, but I'm sure that
Craig will quickly solve this problem also.

No kidding, next spring there will be doors and an air conditioner on there.
Right, Craig?

Here's where you can gaze upon this wondrous machine:

Click "photos" (duh)

http://www.permiansoaring.us/

BJ

Craig Freeman wrote:

> It's intriguing how much attention any post about winch launching seems to
> generate here on RAS. I must admit I, like most here in the USA, cried
> "foul" or was it"fool" any time one would suggest that winching could be
> a viable alternative to the much perferred aero tow. Shame on me. Perhaps
> it's time to lift our head out of the herd and get a new view. The recent
> thread on which type of launch is safest seemed to conclude that each
> launch is equally dangerous if done improperly and each launch is safe
> when done properly. Problem is we in the USA don't know what we are
> doing and learning can be a painful experience. Painful perhaps, but
> worth it.
> Here is my story. Soaring in West Texas had been on the decline for
> the past fifteen years. Only a handful of sailplanes left,(four to be
> exact), and no tow plane in sight. Sounding familiar? Well that was two
> years ago. We simply did not have the money to purchase a tow plane or
> the activity to attract a commercial operation. Our salvation was a
> GOOD WINCH. The story of building a good winch and learning to operate
> it could take up most the rest of the winter. However the proof is in
> pudding, or in this case the bank account. Our club has more than tripled
> in membership and is growing. We are able to support our activities and
> flying is on the rebound in West Texas. Aero tow will always have a
> place but do not discount what a GOOD WINCH can do for soaring in your
> club. The economics simply cannot be overlooked. Winches generate real
> revenue and provide for more flights for the buck than any other method
> of launch, and can do it just as safely as aero tow.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Craig

[Gerritjan]

http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg

[Bill Daniels]

"Gerritjan" > wrote in message
...
> http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
>
More data please!

Bill Daniels

[Gerritjan]

> > http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
> >
> More data please!

This is a 6-drum "van Gelder" diesel winch as used by several european
clubs....

[Derek Ruddock]

It's a munster Van Gelder.
See http://www.proximedia.com/local/netherlands/m/machine-el/vario
us.htm


At 23:42 30 October 2003, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>'Gerritjan' wrote in message
...
>> http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
>>
>More data please!
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>

[Bob Johnson]

You know, just south of Totternhoe!

http://www.gliding.powernet.co.uk/core/club.htm

Gerritjan wrote:
>
> http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg

[David Sieber]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message et>...
> "Gerritjan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
> >
> More data please!
>
> Bill Daniels

Yes this very slick, I thought the one they had at Lasham was neat.
Although I doubt they need A/C. I am learning in CA and I typically
spend $100/day getting 3 tows admittedly in the beloved or hated 2-32!
More operations should have winches.

Maybe your example (and details) can make this happen!!

D.Sieber

[soarski]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message et>...
> "Gerritjan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
> >
> More data please!
>
> Bill Daniels




Here is an electric one! Bill.

http://www.beepworld.de/members28/onkelmaggus/

Dieter

[Chris Nicholas]

I have only just found the posting with the link to pictures of the
Permian Soaring winch [
http://www.permiansoaring.us/ ] and was a bit concerned that there is
apparently no guillotine, to be able to sever the cable in the event of
a hang-up at the glider end. Is there one and it is just not visible?
If not, what is the emergency procedure to ditich the cable?

There has been one fatality that I know of in the UK (maybe more) when
the release hook on the glider failed to operate and the glider flew in
an arc pivoting round the winch until it hit the ground. There have
been escapes where the cable wrapped round the axle or caught in some
other part of the glider (e.g. diving under the cable and getting it
over a wing, when there was a power failure or whatever) and the
guillotine saved it from being a disaster.

Did the operators pick up from experienced winch users how best to set
up the cable - hosepipe, weak links, swivels etc.?

Are swivels necessary and/or beneficial with the synthetic cable?

Is the winch earthed before use?

Not trying to teach grandmother to suck eggs, but anyone starting up use
of a winch needs to find a lot of know-how from others - or learn it the
hard way. My club started using winches again after a long gap, would
not pick up expertise from others, and had some hard lessons,
fortunately without major accidents but certainly with some near misses.
Like the guy who had a huge electric shock getting down from the cab one
day and then realised why there was an earthing (grounding) spike
provided.

Chris N.

[Eggert Ehmke]

Gerritjan wrote:

>> > http://terlet.org/fotosbig/p522.jpg
>> >
>> More data please!
>
> This is a 6-drum "van Gelder" diesel winch as used by several european
> clubs....

Several european clubs would *dream* of such a winch. Most have a double
drum tost or home build winch, some 20 or more years old, only kept running
by some experienced mechanics who know the vital parts in the dark night.
Eggert

[Bill Daniels]

"soarski" > wrote in message

> Here is an electric one! Bill.
>
> http://www.beepworld.de/members28/onkelmaggus/
>
> Dieter

I looked this one over carefully. It seems like a good idea using the
battery pack as a buffer to store up energy from the power source between
launches. It means that the primary source of electricity can be much
smaller than if the winch motor had to be directly powered from the mains
(Or a diesel generator set.) Modern digital power controls are very precise
but, it's a costly approach.

Then I thought about servicing the 570 Volt battery pack - yikes! One wrong
move and you get fried. I've heard harrowing stories told by old
submariners about servicing diesel boat battery packs - no thanks, not me.

Direct diesel power delivered through a Voith fluid coupling still seems the
best way to go. At least when you shut down a diesel. it's inert and safe.

Bill Daniels

[Craig Freeman]

Chris Nicholas > wrote in message >...
> I have only just found the posting with the link to pictures of the
> Permian Soaring winch [
> http://www.permiansoaring.us/ ] and was a bit concerned that there is
> apparently no guillotine, to be able to sever the cable in the event of
> a hang-up at the glider end. Is there one and it is just not visible?
> If not, what is the emergency procedure to ditich the cable?

I am looking for a dependable way to cut Plasma rope. A guillotine
will be installed as soon as this question is answered. Any ideas
would be appreciated.
>
> There has been one fatality that I know of in the UK (maybe more) when
> the release hook on the glider failed to operate and the glider flew in
> an arc pivoting round the winch until it hit the ground. There have
> been escapes where the cable wrapped round the axle or caught in some
> other part of the glider (e.g. diving under the cable and getting it
> over a wing, when there was a power failure or whatever) and the
> guillotine saved it from being a disaster.
>
> Did the operators pick up from experienced winch users how best to set
> up the cable - hosepipe, weak links, swivels etc.?

We used what information was available to us. Derek Piggot's book
on winch launching is a must read. Proper setups are very important.
Sadly, they are not widely understood or perhaps respected in the
USA. I had one very well respected sailplane supplier ask me.
" Why do you want to use color coded tost links, let me sell you
some certified rope" Been there done that rope no worky. At least
not as dependable as necessary. He did sell me what I wanted and
guess what no more weak link breaks.
The USA is just having a little trouble getting up to speed on
winch launching. Thankfully we do not have to invent this wheel
just learn from those who have gone before us.


>
> Are swivels necessary and/or beneficial with the synthetic cable?

No swivels needed with hollow braided ropes.
>
> Is the winch earthed before use?

Static? That's new to me. Thanks-
>
> Not trying to teach grandmother to suck eggs, but anyone starting up use
> of a winch needs to find a lot of know-how from others - or learn it the
> hard way. My club started using winches again after a long gap, would
> not pick up expertise from others, and had some hard lessons,
> fortunately without major accidents but certainly with some near misses.
> Like the guy who had a huge electric shock getting down from the cab one
> day and then realised why there was an earthing (grounding) spike
> provided.
>
Good advice my winch launching friend.

Craig-
> Chris N.

[Eggert Ehmke]

Craig Freeman wrote:

> I am looking for a dependable way to cut Plasma rope. A guillotine
> will be installed as soon as this question is answered. Any ideas
> would be appreciated.

You may want to have a look at
http://www.aec-landau.de/projekte/PE-Seil/vortrag.htm

They have modified their winch to cut their PE cable. You find the email
address of the author at the end of that page.
Eggert

[Bob Johnson]

Eggert --

You've been such a graet help to us I hate to ask one more favor, but
could you translate these pages for us poor old igorant cowboys?

Computer translations are hilarious.

Thanks,

Boob Johnson

Eggert Ehmke wrote:
>
> Craig Freeman wrote:
>
> > I am looking for a dependable way to cut Plasma rope. A guillotine
> > will be installed as soon as this question is answered. Any ideas
> > would be appreciated.
>
> You may want to have a look at
> http://www.aec-landau.de/projekte/PE-Seil/vortrag.htm
>
> They have modified their winch to cut their PE cable. You find the email
> address of the author at the end of that page.
> Eggert

[Tony Verhulst]

Bob Johnson wrote:
> Actually, Craig is being too modest. In a few months of spare time work this
> spring, he single-handedly engineered and built a double drum machine...

Whats the point of the second drum? Great pics, BTW).

Tony V. (aero tows ~1300, winch tows)

[Antti Glad]

There are some very nice advantages to a winch (wouldn't think twice
about getting a launch even if the weather does not look so great, we
had some great fun launching to landing circuit just for the heck of
it when it was raining last summer). We've got a package deal in our
club, unlimited launches for a reasonable price. It's just very
economical (make no mistake though, I do appreciate the convenience of
an aerotow as well). Still, a winch launch will teach you how to make
the best of the conditions as you don't have much time to find a
thermal.

We've got a "factory built" winch from Germany a few years back, top
of the notch with turbos and whatnot- if you're interested, have a
look at http://www.saunalahti.fi/kily/paasivu.htm. Click on "kalusto",
the fourth button on the left frame and then "vintturi" on the right
frame. Sorry, it's all in Finnish :-)

Kind regards,

Antti

[Bob Johnson]

Antti --

I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?

Thanks again,

BJ

Antti Glad wrote:
>
> There are some very nice advantages to a winch (wouldn't think twice
> about getting a launch even if the weather does not look so great, we
> had some great fun launching to landing circuit just for the heck of
> it when it was raining last summer). We've got a package deal in our
> club, unlimited launches for a reasonable price. It's just very
> economical (make no mistake though, I do appreciate the convenience of
> an aerotow as well). Still, a winch launch will teach you how to make
> the best of the conditions as you don't have much time to find a
> thermal.
>
> We've got a "factory built" winch from Germany a few years back, top
> of the notch with turbos and whatnot- if you're interested, have a
> look at http://www.saunalahti.fi/kily/paasivu.htm. Click on "kalusto",
> the fourth button on the left frame and then "vintturi" on the right
> frame. Sorry, it's all in Finnish :-)
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Antti

[Bob Johnson]

Tony --

Well that's a long story. Right now it balances the view! 8>)

BJ

Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
> Bob Johnson wrote:
> > Actually, Craig is being too modest. In a few months of spare time work this
> > spring, he single-handedly engineered and built a double drum machine...
>
> Whats the point of the second drum? Great pics, BTW).
>
> Tony V. (aero tows ~1300, winch tows)

[soarski]

Bob Johnson > wrote in message >...
> Eggert --
>
> You've been such a graet help to us I hate to ask one more favor, but
> could you translate these pages for us poor old igorant cowboys?
>
> Computer translations are hilarious.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Boob Johnson
>
> Eggert Ehmke wrote:
> >
> > Craig Freeman wrote:
> >
> > > I am looking for a dependable way to cut Plasma rope. A guillotine
> > > will be installed as soon as this question is answered. Any ideas
> > > would be appreciated.
> >
> > You may want to have a look at
> > http://www.aec-landau.de/projekte/PE-Seil/vortrag.htm
> >
> > They have modified their winch to cut their PE cable. You find the email
> > address of the author at the end of that page.
> > Eggert



I very quickly looked for the cutting method:

Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?

Dieter

[Eggert Ehmke]

soarski wrote:

> I very quickly looked for the cutting method:
>
> Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
> which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
> similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?

That's my understanding too. I can try to translate the complete article,
but this will take some time.

Eggert

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Johnson wrote:
> > Actually, Craig is being too modest. In a few months of spare time work
this
> > spring, he single-handedly engineered and built a double drum machine...
>
> Whats the point of the second drum? Great pics, BTW).
>
> Tony V. (aero tows ~1300, winch tows)
>
http://www.soarcsa.org/pdf/winch_proposal.pdf

Have a look at page 10. Look at the number of vertical feet a two drum
winch can achieve. No tow plane can match this. Here's a good example
http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk/ of 200 members using winch launch, but
with a tow plane for wave tows. There are also a substantial number of
private gliders in the club. Prior to using the winch, they using reverse
pulley auto tows.

Launch rate is important, given a large number of gliders. Dragging two or
more wires to the launch point is the only sensible way to do this.
Differential are not really the best solution as they do burn up fairly
quickly if one side is locked. Transfer cases and dog clutches are fairly
common solutions.

Frank Whiteley

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Eggert Ehmke" > wrote in message
...
> soarski wrote:
>
> > I very quickly looked for the cutting method:
> >
> > Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
> > which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
> > similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?
>
> That's my understanding too. I can try to translate the complete article,
> but this will take some time.
>
> Eggert

During rope break training, has the 'float' of spectra been an issue? In
our limited used of 1000ft of spectra on the end of the steel wire, it was
seen to float in a large arc after release. This hang time might be
problematic in the event of an actual break.

Frank Whiteley

[Stephen Haley]

Most European winches are hydraulic drives.

"Bob Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Antti --
>
> I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
> with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
> that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
> automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> BJ
>
> Antti Glad wrote:
> >
> > There are some very nice advantages to a winch (wouldn't think twice
> > about getting a launch even if the weather does not look so great, we
> > had some great fun launching to landing circuit just for the heck of
> > it when it was raining last summer). We've got a package deal in our
> > club, unlimited launches for a reasonable price. It's just very
> > economical (make no mistake though, I do appreciate the convenience of
> > an aerotow as well). Still, a winch launch will teach you how to make
> > the best of the conditions as you don't have much time to find a
> > thermal.
> >
> > We've got a "factory built" winch from Germany a few years back, top
> > of the notch with turbos and whatnot- if you're interested, have a
> > look at http://www.saunalahti.fi/kily/paasivu.htm. Click on "kalusto",
> > the fourth button on the left frame and then "vintturi" on the right
> > frame. Sorry, it's all in Finnish :-)
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Antti

[Martin Gregorie]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:10:15 -0600, Bob Johnson >
wrote:

>Antti --
>
>I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
>with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
>that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
>automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?
>
Supacats, anyway, have a massive purpose designed gearbox mounted
between the twin drums. It is driven via a fluid clutch and drives the
two outputs via dog clutches as well as the oscillating pay-on arms.
There are three separate brake systems (one on each drum, plus one on
the output side of the fluid clutch). The drum brakes have independent
hydraulic circuits connected to separate brake levers. The input brake
and the output dog clutches are mechanically interconnected on a
single lever - it moves sideways to select left, right or no drum and
back to apply the brake on the clutch output. In addition there are
payout brake levers that apply light pressure to the drum calipers
while the cable is being pulled out.

The separate throttle connects to the Deutz diesel via a profiled cam
that gives a more or less linear power response. By that I mean that
more or less equal movements give similar power increments over the
whole range. It makes smooth launches a lot easier.

Safety: pulling rather than pushing the throttle cuts the motor. Both
guillotines are operated simultaneously from an in-cab hydraulic
circuit or, if this fails, each can be fired mechanically from
outside. A flashing yellow light on top the cap operates when the
winch is running and in gear. Nobody touches either cable when its
flashing.

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

HTH

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Bob Johnson]

Martin --

A very good description, thanks for providing it!

As an experiment, we attempted to use the differential that came in the
same heavy duty pickup truck that furnished our 454 c.i. engine. This
unit was mounted as you would expect between the twin drums and one drum
was braked by its respective master cylinder brake lever, leaving the
power to be applied to the opposite drum. This arrangement went fine for
about an half-dozen launches, when the diff over-heated and eventually
gave up the ghost.

Thus we learned that the differential feature as we were using it would
have to be disabled and a couple of dog clutches would have to be
devised in order to turn our winch into a true double-drum unit.

BJ



Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:10:15 -0600, Bob Johnson >
> wrote:
>
> >Antti --
> >
> >I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
> >with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
> >that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
> >automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?
> >
> Supacats, anyway, have a massive purpose designed gearbox mounted
> between the twin drums. It is driven via a fluid clutch and drives the
> two outputs via dog clutches as well as the oscillating pay-on arms.
> There are three separate brake systems (one on each drum, plus one on
> the output side of the fluid clutch). The drum brakes have independent
> hydraulic circuits connected to separate brake levers. The input brake
> and the output dog clutches are mechanically interconnected on a
> single lever - it moves sideways to select left, right or no drum and
> back to apply the brake on the clutch output. In addition there are
> payout brake levers that apply light pressure to the drum calipers
> while the cable is being pulled out.
>
> The separate throttle connects to the Deutz diesel via a profiled cam
> that gives a more or less linear power response. By that I mean that
> more or less equal movements give similar power increments over the
> whole range. It makes smooth launches a lot easier.
>
> Safety: pulling rather than pushing the throttle cuts the motor. Both
> guillotines are operated simultaneously from an in-cab hydraulic
> circuit or, if this fails, each can be fired mechanically from
> outside. A flashing yellow light on top the cap operates when the
> winch is running and in gear. Nobody touches either cable when its
> flashing.
>
> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> sliding doors open in summer.
>
> HTH
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut. The
windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something
similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be protected
with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.

If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.

One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
driving the winch.

At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked his
car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe
distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands of
winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and flew
back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the
front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run into
him.

This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth taking.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> sliding doors open in summer.
>
> Martin Gregorie
>

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bill --

After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.

BJ

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote:
>
> A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
> launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut. The
> windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something
> similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be protected
> with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.
>
> If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
> winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.
>
> One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
> open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
> clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
> driving the winch.
>
> At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked his
> car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe
> distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands of
> winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and flew
> back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the
> front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run into
> him.
>
> This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
> surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth taking.
>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> >
> > "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> > sliding doors open in summer.
> >
> > Martin Gregorie
> >

[Dave Martin]

All the more reasons for getting funding for trails
in the UK!



At 05:54 05 November 2003, Bob Johnson wrote:
>Hi Bill --
>
>After my limited experience with it, I can't help but
>think that
>synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty
>to work with during
>breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled.
>It's light as a
>feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely
>no energy.
>
>BJ
>
>'W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).' wrote:
>>
>> A winch should never have any doors or windows open
>>while actually
>> launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors
>>and windows shut. The
>> windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with
>>Lexan or something
>> similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not
>>glazed must be protected
>> with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.
>>
>> If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will,
>>it can get inside the
>> winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.
>>
>> One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the
>>back window slightly
>> open. The cable broke, came in through the window
>>and attacked his
>> clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape,
>>and has given up
>> driving the winch.
>>
>> At another club one of the most experienced of all
>>winch drivers parked his
>> car directly behind the winch and facing it, what
>>he thought was a safe
>> distance away. This was at a busy club which has
>>done many thousands of
>> winch launches every year for a very long time.
>> The cable broke and flew
>> back, trashing the back of his car and round the car
>>to break one of the
>> front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and
>>asked who had run into
>> him.
>>
>> This sort of thing does not happen very often so it
>>takes people by
>> surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and
>>is just not worth taking.
>>
>> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>> Remove 'ic' to reply.
>>
>> >
>> > 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
>>>for winter and the
>> > sliding doors open in summer.
>> >
>> > Martin Gregorie
>> >
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Just a few points.

The sort of incidents I described are very rare, which is why people are
sometimes not ready for them and may be caught. It would take many years
of operation with synthetic before one could be sure that it could never
behave as wire occasionally does.

It is not just energy stored in the wire due to elasticity, it is also the
energy due to its weight and speed. Synthetic may have less weight, but it
still has some.

Will winches be designed only for synthetic cable, and never used with wire?
Even if the intention is to use synthetic, the winch should be designed so
that wire can be used, and winch drivers should be trained for this.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Bob Johnson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Hi Bill --
>
> After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
> synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
> breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
> feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.
>
> BJ
>
> >
> > "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote:
> >
> > A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
> > launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut.
> > The windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or
> > something similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must
> > be protected with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.
> >
> > If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
> > winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.
> >
> > One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
> > open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
> > clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
> > driving the winch.
> >
> > At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked
> > his car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a
> > safe distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many
> > thousands of winch launches every year for a very long time. The
> > cable broke and flew back, trashing the back of his car and round the
> > car to break one of the front door windows. I saw the car afterwards
> > and asked who had run into him.
> >
> > This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
> > surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth
> > taking.
> >
> > W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> > Remove "ic" to reply.
> >
> > >
> > > "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> > > sliding doors open in summer.
> > >
> > > Martin Gregorie
> > >
> >
>

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> wrote:

>A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
>launching.

......

>> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
>> sliding doors open in summer.
>>

Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
launches".

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:30:54 -0600, Bob Johnson >
wrote:

>Martin --
>
>A very good description, thanks for providing it!
>
...../....

>Thus we learned that the differential feature as we were using it would
>have to be disabled and a couple of dog clutches would have to be
>devised in order to turn our winch into a true double-drum unit.
>
The Supacat neutral and third brake is a useful design feature. With
the lever released and the engine running the gear-box is spun up, so
its oil is kept moving (good on a cold day) and the fluid clutch won't
overheat. The combined control makes it easy to rotate the dog a
little to help it engage.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

I am not an experienced winch driver, in fact I have not done it for years.
I was relating the lessons learned from others.

As to how far away from the winch you should stand or park when not in the
cab, I suggest you ask Bicester or Dick Stratton, he knows more than most
and is the depository of all knowledge relating to winching.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> > > wrote:
> >
> > A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
> > launching.
> >
> .....
> >>
> >> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> >> sliding doors open in summer.
> >>
>
> Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
> launches".
>
> I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
> parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
> take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
> experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
> winch? Is there an optimum place?
>
> Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
> UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
> large back seat would be fitted.
>
> Martin Gregorie
>

[Bert Willing]

I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Martin Gregorie" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> > wrote:
>
> >A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
> >launching.
>
> .....
>
> >> "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> >> sliding doors open in summer.
> >>
>
> Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
> launches".
>
> I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
> parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
> take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
> experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
> winch? Is there an optimum place?
>
> Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
> UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
> large back seat would be fitted.
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :
>

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> wrote:

>I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
>a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
>about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
>winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
>came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
>whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.
>
>If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
>you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
usual position is reasonable.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Ray Lovinggood]

Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches
and have been launched by winch about 100 times and
never realized how dangerous a cable break could be.
The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either
the pilot or the winch operator.

I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch
operator is at some site way off to the side (where
he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements
) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either
case, remote controls would be necessary.

I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had
protected the operator with only a screen fencing on
the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had
about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe
1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something
from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's
position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel.

While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did
like the winch!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d 'W8'


At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote:
>I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver
>(sitting in the car
>a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break.
>The cable broke
>about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely
>to the back of the
>winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the
>windshield & mirror,
>came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take
>a second for the
>whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see
>anything of it at all.
>
>If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever
>that cable may reach
>you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.
>
>--
>Bert Willing
>
>ASW20 'TW'
>
>
>'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de
...
>> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\)
>>Dean \(U.K.\).'
>> wrote:
>>
>> >A winch should never have any doors or windows open
>>>while actually
>> >launching.
>>
>> .....
>>
>> >> 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
>>>>for winter and the
>> >> sliding doors open in summer.
>> >>
>>
>> Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors
>>open between
>> launches'.
>>
>> I always stay in the cable truck during launches as
>>well, with it
>> parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the
>>side. Bill, I
>> take your point about broken cable strikes on other
>>vehicles. In your
>> experience is parking where I significantly better
>>than behind the
>> winch? Is there an optimum place?
>>
>> Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different
>>meaning in the
>> UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come
>>into the frame and a
>> large back seat would be fitted.
>>
>> --
>> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie : Harlow, UK
>> demon :
>> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
>> uk :
>>
>
>
>

[Bert Willing]

Well, I've been doing well above a thousand winch launches from each side,
and it is I very safe operation if the pilot knows what he does, and if the
winch driver is well protected. Cable breaks are dangerous for the winch
driver only if the cable breaks near the winch and the broken end homes in
before he stops the drum, or if it's the right distance to just whip back
and forth.
I used to drive winches with either a metal grid in front of me, or a
bullet-proof window. I once having the end of the cable slightly scratching
my leg after a break, but so far most of the winches I've come across didn't
have lateral protection and I don't know of anyone having seen the cable
coming to get the winch driver around the forward protection at full speed
..-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ray Lovinggood" > a écrit dans le message
de ...
> Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches
> and have been launched by winch about 100 times and
> never realized how dangerous a cable break could be.
> The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either
> the pilot or the winch operator.
>
> I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch
> operator is at some site way off to the side (where
> he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements
> ) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either
> case, remote controls would be necessary.
>
> I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had
> protected the operator with only a screen fencing on
> the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had
> about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe
> 1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something
> from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's
> position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel.
>
> While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did
> like the winch!
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
> LS-1d 'W8'
>
>
> At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote:
> >I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver
> >(sitting in the car
> >a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break.
> >The cable broke
> >about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely
> >to the back of the
> >winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the
> >windshield & mirror,
> >came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take
> >a second for the
> >whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see
> >anything of it at all.
> >
> >If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever
> >that cable may reach
> >you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.
> >
> >--
> >Bert Willing
> >
> >ASW20 'TW'
> >
> >
> >'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de
> ...
> >> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\)
> >>Dean \(U.K.\).'
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A winch should never have any doors or windows open
> >>>while actually
> >> >launching.
> >>
> >> .....
> >>
> >> >> 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
> >>>>for winter and the
> >> >> sliding doors open in summer.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors
> >>open between
> >> launches'.
> >>
> >> I always stay in the cable truck during launches as
> >>well, with it
> >> parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the
> >>side. Bill, I
> >> take your point about broken cable strikes on other
> >>vehicles. In your
> >> experience is parking where I significantly better
> >>than behind the
> >> winch? Is there an optimum place?
> >>
> >> Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different
> >>meaning in the
> >> UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come
> >>into the frame and a
> >> large back seat would be fitted.
> >>
> >> --
> >> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> >> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> >> demon :
> >> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> >> uk :
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> > wrote:
>
> >I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the
car
> >a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
> >about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of
the
> >winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
> >came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
> >whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.
> >
> >If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may
reach
> >you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.
>
> I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
> described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
> known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
> wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
> usual position is reasonable.
>
At Enstone several years ago, we were using re-engined ex-ATC winches. The
drums were beneath the driver and mesh plus lexan panels were in the floor
to allow the driver to see the dog-clutch engagements. These panels were
normally bolted down. During a wire break one day, some loops were thrown
on a drum. One of the panels, which for some reason was not bolted down
that day, was knocked up by the loops which then proceeded to shred the wire
and thrash the shins on the driver, who was wearing short pants that day.
It looked much worse than it actually turned out, but he carries some of the
embedded wire bits to this day.

I have had wire and/or tackle shoot past the winch a few times after a break
or if the chute tangled. Falling tackle after a downwind launch can land
about anywhere depending on the wind components.

Frank Whiteley

[Robert Ehrlich]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
> > wrote:
>
> >I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
> >a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
> >about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
> >winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
> >came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
> >whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.
> >
> >If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
> >you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.
>
> I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
> described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
> known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
> wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
> usual position is reasonable.
>

As winch driver I usually have my car near the winch, especially when
it is on the far end of the runway. I park the car at 90 degrees from the
runway direction at about 20 m from the winch on the upwind side. I
never saw or heard of a breaking cable reaching this place. I hope that
I am not going to do the first experience of it.

[Stephen Haley]

Ask arround the sailing community about how much one can be hurt by a
flailing synthetic rope - it might not be as bad as wire in some ways but
because it is infinately more flexible it can be just as bad.

"Bob Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Bill --
>
> After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
> synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
> breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
> feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.
>
> BJ
>
> "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote:
> >
> > A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
> > launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut.
The
> > windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something
> > similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be
protected
> > with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.
> >
> > If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
> > winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.
> >
> > One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
> > open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
> > clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
> > driving the winch.
> >
> > At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked
his
> > car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe
> > distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands
of
> > winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and
flew
> > back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the
> > front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run
into
> > him.
> >
> > This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
> > surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth
taking.
> >
> > W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> > Remove "ic" to reply.
> >
> > >
> > > "Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
> > > sliding doors open in summer.
> > >
> > > Martin Gregorie
> > >

[Bill Daniels]

Stephen is right - IF you get tangled in it while it is under tension,
Spectra cut right through you like any strong line. Since you need a strong
line, there's no getting away from that. The real danger from winch line is
ballistic impact and there steel is far more dangerous.

The commercial shipping and barge industries have almost completely switched
from wire rope to Spectra on the safety issue alone. Steel
stretches,storing energy like a spring - that energy is released in a
springback when it breaks. Steel cable used to result in a hundred or so
deck hand deaths a year. Spectra has eliminated those deaths. Spectra
creeps under load and creeps back a little when it breaks - no real danger
there.

Spectra does not eliminate the danger posed by line termination hardware
like carabiners and weak links. Those can hit the winch cab with the energy
of a pistol bullet. A good strong, armored cab is still a necessity. (A
heater and air conditioner would be nice too.)

Bob is right in that Spectra is sweet to work with. Bare hands are fine -
no gloves needed to protect your hands from "fish hooks" that are common
with stranded steel cable. It's not black and white, but steel is far more
dangerous than spectra and that alone makes it worth the switch.

Bill Daniels


"Stephen Haley" > wrote in message
...
> Ask arround the sailing community about how much one can be hurt by a
> flailing synthetic rope - it might not be as bad as wire in some ways but
> because it is infinately more flexible it can be just as bad.
>
> "Bob Johnson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi Bill --
> >
> > After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
> > synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
> > breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
> > feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.
> >
> > BJ

[E. A. Grens]

Martin -
>
> I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
> described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
> known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
> wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
> usual position is reasonable.
>
As Bert said, the cable may strike anything within its range. That means to
the side as well as straight back. Where the cable goes in a break depends
little upon the wind (it has a low drag profile), but primarily on the
failure mode of the cable. The rupture across a cable is not simultaneous
at all points. It proceeds (rapidly) from one side to the opposite, and in
doing so may impart a large lateral force on the cable. I have seen cable
breaks, not in sailplane launching, where the cable whipped its full length
to the side. The whole circle of radius equal to the length of the cable
out, must be avoided if unprotected.

Ed Grens

[F.L. Whiteley]

"E. A. Grens" > wrote in message
...
> Martin -
> >
> > I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
> > described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
> > known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
> > wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
> > usual position is reasonable.
> >
> As Bert said, the cable may strike anything within its range. That means
to
> the side as well as straight back. Where the cable goes in a break
depends
> little upon the wind (it has a low drag profile), but primarily on the
> failure mode of the cable. The rupture across a cable is not simultaneous
> at all points. It proceeds (rapidly) from one side to the opposite, and
in
> doing so may impart a large lateral force on the cable. I have seen cable
> breaks, not in sailplane launching, where the cable whipped its full
length
> to the side. The whole circle of radius equal to the length of the cable
> out, must be avoided if unprotected.
>
> Ed Grens
>
This was also briefed to me at Aston Down on the reverse pulley, that the
wire clearance zone was quite large in the event of a break it could flail
about a large radius around the pulley.

Frank Whiteley

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 03:12:58 GMT, "E. A. Grens" >
wrote:

>Martin -
>>
>> I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
>> described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
>> known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
>> wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
>> usual position is reasonable.
>>
>As Bert said, the cable may strike anything within its range. That means to
>the side as well as straight back. Where the cable goes in a break depends
>little upon the wind (it has a low drag profile), but primarily on the
>failure mode of the cable. The rupture across a cable is not simultaneous
>at all points. It proceeds (rapidly) from one side to the opposite, and in
>doing so may impart a large lateral force on the cable. I have seen cable
>breaks, not in sailplane launching, where the cable whipped its full length
>to the side. The whole circle of radius equal to the length of the cable
>out, must be avoided if unprotected.
>
>Ed Grens
>
Thanks, all.

Noted for future reference.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Robert Ehrlich]

Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> ... It's not black and white, but steel is far more
> dangerous than spectra and that alone makes it worth the switch.
> ...

A lot of other factors are to be considered when deciding to switch.
In our case, as we just spent a lot of money in 6 reels of > 1km of
new steel cables, which is already a questionable decision when you
consider the very low use of the winch, spending a much higher lot
of money in spectra is even more questionable.