Wave Off on Early Tow Question

[Michael Pitoniak]

Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

thanks,

mp

[Scott]

If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
correctly. and that's still cutting it close. besides, if a tug has troubles
at 200 feet, he most likely isn't going to have time to wave you off, you'll
have to see the trouble and pop yourself off or go down with him.

Power pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.
"Michael Pitoniak" > wrote in message
om...
> Folks,
>
> Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
> in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
> turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
> truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
> thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
> have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
> 200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
> even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
> tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.
>
> thanks,
>
> mp


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[slomo]

I've done this - twice. The signal to the glider is the end of the rope
being dropped by the towplane. At low altitudes, if I have a problem
requiring a wave off, I don't have time to wait for the sailplane pilot
to recognize any signal, let alone the problem of sufficient motion
on my part to be recognizable by the sailplane. The same goes
with radio communication. I don't have time to request permission
and get a "huh" response. Anything less than pattern altitude or
anything requiring sudden change of direction for my best survival
and the glider will be suddenly on his own. That glider has far more
chance of surviving unattached than it does attached. My survival
absolutely depends on the glider being unattached.

Likewise, I am not going to worry about which way the glider turns.
It is highly unlikely that the glider is going to descend faster than
the towplane.

In article >,
(Michael Pitoniak) wrote:
>Folks,
>
> Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
>in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
>turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
>truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
>thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
>have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
>200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
>even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
>tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.
>
>thanks,
>
>mp

[Vaughn]

"Michael Pitoniak" > wrote in message
om...
> Folks,
>
> Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
> in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
> turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
> truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
> thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
> have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
> 200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
> even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
> tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

First of all, Scott correctly observed that the tow plane will not be
executing a 180 and returning to the runway from a complete power loss at
200 feet. That said, a waveoff should always be considered to be the
TOWPLANE'S emergency. We must realize that a glider without power is in far
better shape than a towplane without power. When releasing from a waveoff
we should expect that the towplane will probably want to turn directly
towards the runway, whatever direction that is. Your normal release turn
may not be appropriate if it could possibly interfere with the towplane's
return. Assuming you are significantly above 200 feet, It may be best to
continue straight ahead for a few seconds and slow down while manuvering
just enough to keep the tow plane in view. Unless the purpose of the
waveoff was a true complete power failure, the towplane may not lose
altitude as fast as you think. Keep your options open as long as possible,
because you may well be presented with a blocked runway.

Vaughn


>
> thanks,
>
> mp

[Liam Finley]

The policy is, you both do what you gotta do, and try not to hit each
other in the process.

[BTIZ]

if tuggy got problems at 200ft.. your first clue might be 1) smoke out the
stack 2) he's descending 3) you're left holding the rope.

had that happen to a friend once.. Stearman tow popped a jug.. glider pilot
saw the puff of smoke and the rope released at the same time.. luckily they
were about 500ft.. he was trailing 200ft of rope off the glider nose.. and
not enough drag to cause a back release on a Schweitzer hook. he was in a
2-32

BT

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
> airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
> correctly. and that's still cutting it close. besides, if a tug has
troubles
> at 200 feet, he most likely isn't going to have time to wave you off,
you'll
> have to see the trouble and pop yourself off or go down with him.
>
> Power pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.
> "Michael Pitoniak" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Folks,
> >
> > Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
> > in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
> > turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
> > truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
> > thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
> > have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
> > 200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
> > even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
> > tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > mp
>
>
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[BTIZ]

its always nice to have two runways.. parallel.. or an open infield ... just
land the glider where the tug is not..

most likely if the tug gets turned around.. he'll land at the near end and
the glider can over fly and land long..

could be.. with the drag of the glider gone.. the tug may have enough power
to sustain altitude to get back..

BT

"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Pitoniak" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Folks,
> >
> > Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
> > in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
> > turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
> > truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
> > thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
> > have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
> > 200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
> > even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
> > tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.
>
> First of all, Scott correctly observed that the tow plane will not be
> executing a 180 and returning to the runway from a complete power loss at
> 200 feet. That said, a waveoff should always be considered to be the
> TOWPLANE'S emergency. We must realize that a glider without power is in
far
> better shape than a towplane without power. When releasing from a waveoff
> we should expect that the towplane will probably want to turn directly
> towards the runway, whatever direction that is. Your normal release turn
> may not be appropriate if it could possibly interfere with the towplane's
> return. Assuming you are significantly above 200 feet, It may be best to
> continue straight ahead for a few seconds and slow down while manuvering
> just enough to keep the tow plane in view. Unless the purpose of the
> waveoff was a true complete power failure, the towplane may not lose
> altitude as fast as you think. Keep your options open as long as
possible,
> because you may well be presented with a blocked runway.
>
> Vaughn
>
>
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > mp
>
>

[Jack]

in article , Scott at
wrote on 2003/11/04 16:43:

> If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
> airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
> correctly. and that's still cutting it close.

Read

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/possible.html

and

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/aiaa1col.pdf

to get up to date on the question of ASEL turnback performance.

800 feet is probably far too conservative.



Jack

[Buck Wild]

Jack > wrote in message >...
> in article , Scott at
> wrote on 2003/11/04 16:43:
>
> > If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
> > airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
> > correctly. and that's still cutting it close.
>
> Read
>
> http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/possible.html
>
> and
>
> http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/aiaa1col.pdf
>
> to get up to date on the question of ASEL turnback performance.
>
> 800 feet is probably far too conservative.

I figure a thousand ft minimum for a pawnee if you hold your mouth
just right.(5000msl+density where I fly) Of course Im already overhead
by then. I only simulated it once at altitude a long time ago just out
of curiosity, so your results may vary. They glide OK straght ahead,
but not when you're turning. Even flown right, it still comes down
like a beveled refridgerator. I'll do 200' in gliders all day long,
but with power, I hope the Blessed Lady of Internal Combustion gets me
within gliding range of a soft spot.
-Dan
>

>
> Jack

[Tlewis95]

anyone know how short a pawnee can land? Might be in consideration when landing
on the same runway.

[Eric Coleson]

(Michael Pitoniak) wrote in message >...
> Folks,
>
(snip)
>I imagine
(snip)
>it is worth considering all possible senarios.
>

And you have the right idea! There are just too many variables to
settle on a standard, universal solution. From the glider end, it's
"generally" better to turn upwind after a low PT3 but there are places
where terrain or obstructions may render that a poor choice, and days
or moments of the day in which traffic or other considerations can
render the upwind turn or even turning around at all the worst
possible thing to do. Considering all possible scenarios equips you
with a mental emergency procedures flip-chart. As variables influence
the departure from the beginning of the takeoff to the point at which
you or the towplane have reason to part company, you're much more
likely to find yourself on the right page for the moment than the
pilot who has never imagined in detail what might ensue.

There are a number of good reasons for the towplane to go pretty
nearly straight ahead after a low altitude power failure, but it isn't
always going to happen that way. We airplane drivers were all trained
never to turn back, but there's ample evidence (largely in the form of
accident statistics) that the training wasn't universally effective.
There are also a number excellent mitigating circumstances that might
make it attractive for the towplane to turn back; e.g., he's already
started a turn below 200'AGL and doesn't need to completely reverse
course to get there (and the good reasons for that turn could fill
another thread).

Towplane power failures aren't the only valid reason for parting
company at critically low altitude, either. I've signalled wave-offs
and/or pickled the front end of the rope from a perfectly functioning
towplane because 1) the combination wasn't outclimbing otherwise
unavoidable terrain or obstructions for reason other than power
failure; 2)the towplane and glider were better able to avoid a midair
collision with other aircraft by maneuevering independently; and 3), I
didn't think I could tow and deal with undesireable and previously
undiscovered critters in the cockpit all at the same time.

The towpilot may wave you off... will more likely just pickle the
rope; and may not get around to doing either one. (I've seen it all
three ways from both ends of the rope, under circumstances both
appropriate and otherwise).

FAR 91.-umpty-ump requres an agreement between the towplane and glider
pilots as to signals and courses of action blah-blah, which is
commonly satisfied by field check discussions or printed handouts on
standard operating procedures peculiar to the flying site. We often
get more specific with pre-takeoff requests for a particular speed or
direction of tow, but operational considerations or variables may
obviate complete agreement on every contingency before every tow. As
to the specifics of what a given towpilot's gonna do at a given flying
site on a given day when the powerplant sucks in a valve, get there
before or stick around after the busy core of his (or her) flying day
and ask. The towpilot is almost certain to be delighted that you give
a rip.

Cheers,
Eric
"Plan ahead, stay alert, and never carry a package by the string"

[Bill Daniels]

"Eric Coleson" > wrote in message


> And you have the right idea! There are just too many variables to
> settle on a standard, universal solution. From the glider end, it's
> "generally" better to turn upwind after a low PT3 but there are places
> where terrain or obstructions may render that a poor choice, and days
> or moments of the day in which traffic or other considerations can
> render the upwind turn or even turning around at all the worst
> possible thing to do. Considering all possible scenarios equips you
> with a mental emergency procedures flip-chart. As variables influence
> the departure from the beginning of the takeoff to the point at which
> you or the towplane have reason to part company, you're much more
> likely to find yourself on the right page for the moment than the
> pilot who has never imagined in detail what might ensue.
>
> There are a number of good reasons for the towplane to go pretty
> nearly straight ahead after a low altitude power failure, but it isn't
> always going to happen that way. We airplane drivers were all trained
> never to turn back, but there's ample evidence (largely in the form of
> accident statistics) that the training wasn't universally effective.
> There are also a number excellent mitigating circumstances that might
> make it attractive for the towplane to turn back; e.g., he's already
> started a turn below 200'AGL and doesn't need to completely reverse
> course to get there (and the good reasons for that turn could fill
> another thread).
>
> Towplane power failures aren't the only valid reason for parting
> company at critically low altitude, either. I've signalled wave-offs
> and/or pickled the front end of the rope from a perfectly functioning
> towplane because 1) the combination wasn't outclimbing otherwise
> unavoidable terrain or obstructions for reason other than power
> failure; 2)the towplane and glider were better able to avoid a midair
> collision with other aircraft by maneuevering independently; and 3), I
> didn't think I could tow and deal with undesireable and previously
> undiscovered critters in the cockpit all at the same time.
>
> The towpilot may wave you off... will more likely just pickle the
> rope; and may not get around to doing either one. (I've seen it all
> three ways from both ends of the rope, under circumstances both
> appropriate and otherwise).
>
> FAR 91.-umpty-ump requres an agreement between the towplane and glider
> pilots as to signals and courses of action blah-blah, which is
> commonly satisfied by field check discussions or printed handouts on
> standard operating procedures peculiar to the flying site. We often
> get more specific with pre-takeoff requests for a particular speed or
> direction of tow, but operational considerations or variables may
> obviate complete agreement on every contingency before every tow. As
> to the specifics of what a given towpilot's gonna do at a given flying
> site on a given day when the powerplant sucks in a valve, get there
> before or stick around after the busy core of his (or her) flying day
> and ask. The towpilot is almost certain to be delighted that you give
> a rip.
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
> "Plan ahead, stay alert, and never carry a package by the string"

Good analysis and good post, Eric.

Premature termination of an airtow at a critically low altitude is a deadly
serious business for both the glider and tug. Add a big heavy glider with
water ballast that must be dumped before landing and the options get even
narrower.

As I have often said, a critical examination of all the risks makes air tow
look less safe and winch launch look better and better.

Bill Daniels