Importing a DG 505 Elan Orion

[[email protected]]

I am buying a DG505 Orion from South Africa - I need to figure out the best way to get the paperwork in order. It will ship in the next month, but right now I have options of getting it here and doing things to make the registration go better - ANY IDEAS, or Thoughts are appreciated.

WH
Bill Hanson

[[email protected]]

I can't speak to this page still being 100% accurate, but it's probably a good start.

http://mitsa.aerobaticsweb.org/glider_import.html

[Dan Marotta]

Here's another for you: http://www.insuredaircraft.com/

I used them to get all of my paperwork through the FAA very quickly and
at a very reasonable cost.

On 2/16/2017 8:54 AM, wrote:
> I can't speak to this page still being 100% accurate, but it's probably a good start.
>
> http://mitsa.aerobaticsweb.org/glider_import.html

--
Dan, 5J

[Michael Opitz]

At 15:49 16 February 2017, wrote:
>I am buying a DG505 Orion from South Africa - I need to figure
out the
>best=
> way to get the paperwork in order. It will ship in the next month,
but
>ri=
>ght now I have options of getting it here and doing things to make
the
>regi=
>stration go better - ANY IDEAS, or Thoughts are appreciated.
>
>WH
>Bill Hanson
>
Bill,

Make sure that the bill of sale reflects the EXACT wording of how
the glider is registered in S.A. Then, use the IDENTICAL
description (make and model number) when you submit your
application for USA registration. The manufacturer's name and the
model number of the aircraft have to match (letter for letter
including caps, lower case, hyphens, etc)
EXACTLY all the way through the paperwork chain from S.A.
registration to S.A. bill of sale to you, to your own application for
USA registration, otherwise the USA FAA will reject your application
for registration. Also, when you fill out the registration application,
be VERY careful to read it closely and fill out exactly as required. If
you make the slightest error, they will bounce it, and will continue
to do so until it is exactly correct. That could delay you for many
months if not attended to properly.

Also, for your sales tax purposes, you might request separate bills
of sale for the glider, instruments and trailer to be provided for the
tax authorities when they ask for a specific bill of sale to determine
your tax liability.

Good luck.

RO

[George Haeh]

I was looking at a glider that had been imported from South Africa. There's
a
fee for deregistration, as well as significant time for paper shuffling.

[Duster]

Bill,
Mssrs Optiz and Marotta's experience will guide you well. Don't underestimate the guidance the local FSDO might provide to you if you contact the FAA first, instead of using them only to troubleshoot. They're not supposed to be obstructionists. That 505 looks like a great ship; good luck with it.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/import_aircraft/

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/business-justification/importing-and-exporting-aircraft#importing

[Michael Opitz]

At 01:39 17 February 2017, Duster wrote:
>Bill,
> Mssrs Optiz and Marotta's experience will guide you well. Don't
>underestim=
>ate the guidance the local FSDO might provide to you if you
contact the
>FAA=
> first, instead of using them only to troubleshoot. They're not
supposed
>to=
> be obstructionists. That 505 looks like a great ship; good luck
with it.
>
>https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/air
craft_r=
>egistry/import_aircraft/
>
>https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-
ownership/bus=
>iness-justification/importing-and-exporting-aircraft#importing
>

There is a critical item missing from the AOPA web site. They refer
to a bi-lateral airworthiness agreement between the USA and the
other country, and list a bunch of countries, where South Africa is
included. The problem is that those agreements are only for
aircraft manufactured in either of the two signing countries. (USA
and S.A. in this case) In the DG-505 case, the glider was not
manufactured in S.A., so what you are really looking for is a 3rd
country manufacture bi-lateral agreement which does NOT exist
between the USA and S.A. That means that the USA FAA will NOT
recognize an Export C of A for a glider imported from S.A. but
manufactured somewhere else.

Also, if you search the FAA TCDS listings, there is no TCDS for the
DG 505 Orion ELAN (only for the DG-500). So, without a 3rd
country bi-lateral agreement and a USA TCDS, the glider will have to
be registered in the Experimental category once you get it here. If
there were a valid TCDS (which I somehow missed), and lacking a
3rd country import bi-lateral agreement, you could then still get a
USA Standard airworthiness by going Dan's route in hiring a DAR
and going through a very expensive conformity inspection.

See the table in appendix 4 on page 63 of the pdf file. Look at the
fourth column from the right for 3rd country manufacture bi-lateral
agreements with the USA FAA:

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac21
-23b.pdf

Here is a note which I found in the Import Requirements section of
the FAA DG-500 TCDS:

"Gliders manufactured in Slovenia under jurisdiction of the
Slovenian Directorate of Civil Aviation are not within the scope of the
current agreement or past agreements and therefore are not eligible
for a U.S. standard airworthiness certificate."

RO

[Dan Marotta]

Just a comment on Mike O.'s information: Though the Mexican Export C of
A for my Stemme was not acceptable for a US Standard Airworthiness
Certificate, there does exist a German Export C of A for that ship and I
made that available to the DAR. I believe that was the basis for my US
Standard Certification and the DAR's inspection was to verify that the
ship conformed to /_that_/ C of A. Of course, I've misunderstood things
before...

On 2/16/2017 8:25 PM, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 01:39 17 February 2017, Duster wrote:
>> Bill,
>> Mssrs Optiz and Marotta's experience will guide you well. Don't
>> underestim=
>> ate the guidance the local FSDO might provide to you if you
> contact the
>> FAA=
>> first, instead of using them only to troubleshoot. They're not
> supposed
>> to=
>> be obstructionists. That 505 looks like a great ship; good luck
> with it.
>> https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/air
> craft_r=
>> egistry/import_aircraft/
>>
>> https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-
> ownership/bus=
>> iness-justification/importing-and-exporting-aircraft#importing
>>
> There is a critical item missing from the AOPA web site. They refer
> to a bi-lateral airworthiness agreement between the USA and the
> other country, and list a bunch of countries, where South Africa is
> included. The problem is that those agreements are only for
> aircraft manufactured in either of the two signing countries. (USA
> and S.A. in this case) In the DG-505 case, the glider was not
> manufactured in S.A., so what you are really looking for is a 3rd
> country manufacture bi-lateral agreement which does NOT exist
> between the USA and S.A. That means that the USA FAA will NOT
> recognize an Export C of A for a glider imported from S.A. but
> manufactured somewhere else.
>
> Also, if you search the FAA TCDS listings, there is no TCDS for the
> DG 505 Orion ELAN (only for the DG-500). So, without a 3rd
> country bi-lateral agreement and a USA TCDS, the glider will have to
> be registered in the Experimental category once you get it here. If
> there were a valid TCDS (which I somehow missed), and lacking a
> 3rd country import bi-lateral agreement, you could then still get a
> USA Standard airworthiness by going Dan's route in hiring a DAR
> and going through a very expensive conformity inspection.
>
> See the table in appendix 4 on page 63 of the pdf file. Look at the
> fourth column from the right for 3rd country manufacture bi-lateral
> agreements with the USA FAA:
>
> https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac21
> -23b.pdf
>
> Here is a note which I found in the Import Requirements section of
> the FAA DG-500 TCDS:
>
> "Gliders manufactured in Slovenia under jurisdiction of the
> Slovenian Directorate of Civil Aviation are not within the scope of the
> current agreement or past agreements and therefore are not eligible
> for a U.S. standard airworthiness certificate."
>
> RO
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Thank you for all the extremely useful info! and guidance.

the effort is very much appreciated!

Bill, WH

[Michael Opitz]

At 15:25 17 February 2017, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Just a comment on Mike O.'s information: Though the Mexican
Export C of
>A for my Stemme was not acceptable for a US Standard
Airworthiness
>Certificate, there does exist a German Export C of A for that ship
and I
>made that available to the DAR. I believe that was the basis for
my US
>Standard Certification and the DAR's inspection was to verify
that the
>ship conformed to /_that_/ C of A. Of course, I've
misunderstood things
>before...
>
>On 2/16/2017 8:25 PM, Michael Opitz wrote:
>> At 01:39 17 February 2017, Duster wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>> Mssrs Optiz and Marotta's experience will guide you well.
Don't
>>> underestim=
>>> ate the guidance the local FSDO might provide to you if you
>> contact the
>>> FAA=
>>> first, instead of using them only to troubleshoot. They're not
>> supposed
>>> to=
>>> be obstructionists. That 505 looks like a great ship; good
luck
>> with it.
>>>
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/a
ir
>> craft_r=
>>> egistry/import_aircraft/
>>>
>>> https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-
archive/aircraft-
>> ownership/bus=
>>> iness-justification/importing-and-exporting-
aircraft#importing
>>>
>> There is a critical item missing from the AOPA web site. They
refer
>> to a bi-lateral airworthiness agreement between the USA and
the
>> other country, and list a bunch of countries, where South
Africa is
>> included. The problem is that those agreements are only for
>> aircraft manufactured in either of the two signing countries.
(USA
>> and S.A. in this case) In the DG-505 case, the glider was not
>> manufactured in S.A., so what you are really looking for is a
3rd
>> country manufacture bi-lateral agreement which does NOT
exist
>> between the USA and S.A. That means that the USA FAA will
NOT
>> recognize an Export C of A for a glider imported from S.A. but
>> manufactured somewhere else.
>>
>> Also, if you search the FAA TCDS listings, there is no TCDS for
the
>> DG 505 Orion ELAN (only for the DG-500). So, without a 3rd
>> country bi-lateral agreement and a USA TCDS, the glider will
have to
>> be registered in the Experimental category once you get it
here. If
>> there were a valid TCDS (which I somehow missed), and
lacking a
>> 3rd country import bi-lateral agreement, you could then still
get a
>> USA Standard airworthiness by going Dan's route in hiring a
DAR
>> and going through a very expensive conformity inspection.
>>
>> See the table in appendix 4 on page 63 of the pdf file. Look at
the
>> fourth column from the right for 3rd country manufacture bi-
lateral
>> agreements with the USA FAA:
>>
>>
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/a
c21
>> -23b.pdf
>>
>> Here is a note which I found in the Import Requirements
section of
>> the FAA DG-500 TCDS:
>>
>> "Gliders manufactured in Slovenia under jurisdiction of the
>> Slovenian Directorate of Civil Aviation are not within the scope
of the
>> current agreement or past agreements and therefore are not
eligible
>> for a U.S. standard airworthiness certificate."
>>
>> RO
>>
>
>--
>Dan, 5J
>

The FAA and thus the DAR are only concerned with the existence
of a TCDS, and should one exist, confirming that the aircraft
conforms with the specifications stipulated by it. A foreign
Export C of A is useless unless there is a bilateral TCDS to go by.
RO

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 15:25 17 February 2017, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >Just a comment on Mike O.'s information: Though the Mexican
> Export C of
> >A for my Stemme was not acceptable for a US Standard
> Airworthiness
> >Certificate, there does exist a German Export C of A for that ship
> and I
> >made that available to the DAR. I believe that was the basis for
> my US
> >Standard Certification and the DAR's inspection was to verify
> that the
> >ship conformed to /_that_/ C of A. Of course, I've
> misunderstood things
> >before...
> >
> >On 2/16/2017 8:25 PM, Michael Opitz wrote:
> >> At 01:39 17 February 2017, Duster wrote:
> >>> Bill,
> >>> Mssrs Optiz and Marotta's experience will guide you well.
> Don't
> >>> underestim=
> >>> ate the guidance the local FSDO might provide to you if you
> >> contact the
> >>> FAA=
> >>> first, instead of using them only to troubleshoot. They're not
> >> supposed
> >>> to=
> >>> be obstructionists. That 505 looks like a great ship; good
> luck
> >> with it.
> >>>
> https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/a
> ir
> >> craft_r=
> >>> egistry/import_aircraft/
> >>>
> >>> https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-
> archive/aircraft-
> >> ownership/bus=
> >>> iness-justification/importing-and-exporting-
> aircraft#importing
> >>>
> >> There is a critical item missing from the AOPA web site. They
> refer
> >> to a bi-lateral airworthiness agreement between the USA and
> the
> >> other country, and list a bunch of countries, where South
> Africa is
> >> included. The problem is that those agreements are only for
> >> aircraft manufactured in either of the two signing countries.
> (USA
> >> and S.A. in this case) In the DG-505 case, the glider was not
> >> manufactured in S.A., so what you are really looking for is a
> 3rd
> >> country manufacture bi-lateral agreement which does NOT
> exist
> >> between the USA and S.A. That means that the USA FAA will
> NOT
> >> recognize an Export C of A for a glider imported from S.A. but
> >> manufactured somewhere else.
> >>
> >> Also, if you search the FAA TCDS listings, there is no TCDS for
> the
> >> DG 505 Orion ELAN (only for the DG-500). So, without a 3rd
> >> country bi-lateral agreement and a USA TCDS, the glider will
> have to
> >> be registered in the Experimental category once you get it
> here. If
> >> there were a valid TCDS (which I somehow missed), and
> lacking a
> >> 3rd country import bi-lateral agreement, you could then still
> get a
> >> USA Standard airworthiness by going Dan's route in hiring a
> DAR
> >> and going through a very expensive conformity inspection.
> >>
> >> See the table in appendix 4 on page 63 of the pdf file. Look at
> the
> >> fourth column from the right for 3rd country manufacture bi-
> lateral
> >> agreements with the USA FAA:
> >>
> >>
> https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/a
> c21
> >> -23b.pdf
> >>
> >> Here is a note which I found in the Import Requirements
> section of
> >> the FAA DG-500 TCDS:
> >>
> >> "Gliders manufactured in Slovenia under jurisdiction of the
> >> Slovenian Directorate of Civil Aviation are not within the scope
> of the
> >> current agreement or past agreements and therefore are not
> eligible
> >> for a U.S. standard airworthiness certificate."
> >>
> >> RO
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Dan, 5J
> >
>
> The FAA and thus the DAR are only concerned with the existence
> of a TCDS, and should one exist, confirming that the aircraft
> conforms with the specifications stipulated by it. A foreign
> Export C of A is useless unless there is a bilateral TCDS to go by.
> RO

The DG500/505 production and TCDS is all a bit messy in my opinion. TCDS G08OE shows the seven DG500/505's built by Elan and AMS who were erroneously issued standard type certificates. There are some changes on the bilateral agreements under EASA since this glider was built, but it's been outside of EASA oversight, so confirming EASA compliance will be tricky and/or expensive and the Slovenian export CofA won't be conforming., so this import will most assuredly be as experimental. An SA export CofA might not be worth much apart from filling a square, nor will the original export CofA from Slovenia. Clearance letter from South Africa registry will be required. Separate bills of sale for glider and trailer.

So, reserve an N-number now.
Clear customs with glider and trailer (must have DOT compliance plate, see DOT HS-7 form). Trailer issues can keep you in port for days to weeks and you pay the storage.
Get a condition inspection.
Get a DAR with initial glider AW authorization (not your regular DAR) to do the initial airworthiness and operating limitations IAW FAA Order 8103.2H Section 10 and other paragraghs (searh air racing). File your program letter with your local FSDO. Fly off Phase 1 and 2 and log results.

Maybe ask SZ, he's done a lot of imports.