Cheapest Club (was Best Gliding Club Website)

[Clint]

There are lots of excellent gliding club websites and most of them
give an indication of the rates for flying. It struck me that the
Goldfields Gliding Club must have the cheapest rates currently
anywhere in the world. Entry fee is about $14, annual membership is
around $60, a winch launch costs less than $3 and an minute is $0.14
(including K7, K13, ASK 21, ASK 23, ASW 19 and ASW 20). Instruction is
by an instructors panel which includes national team members and world
record holders and is provided free of charge. The club owns its own
airfield with hangerage available for private gliders for $12/month
(thank goodness I don't have to rig my LAK every time I want to fly).
The club has no dept and we try to keep the rates as affordable for as
many people as possible.

Couple these rates to some of the best thermal conditions around with
masses of large, flat fields and it feels as if I fly at the best club
in the world.

Clinton
LAK 12

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Nov 2003 00:42:29 -0800, (Clint) wrote:

>There are lots of excellent gliding club websites and most of them
>give an indication of the rates for flying. It struck me that the
>Goldfields Gliding Club must have the cheapest rates currently
>anywhere in the world. Entry fee is about $14, annual membership is
>around $60, a winch launch costs less than $3 and an minute is $0.14
>(including K7, K13, ASK 21, ASK 23, ASW 19 and ASW 20). Instruction is
>by an instructors panel which includes national team members and world
>record holders and is provided free of charge. The club owns its own
>airfield with hangerage available for private gliders for $12/month
>(thank goodness I don't have to rig my LAK every time I want to fly).
>The club has no dept and we try to keep the rates as affordable for as
>many people as possible.

$0.14 per minute... makes $8.40 per hour.
This translates into $420 per year for 50 hours. Add $60 for the
annual fee and, say, $175 for about 70 winch launches, you end up at
$655 per year.

Which is about twice the sum you'd have to pay at my club. ;)

In my club any winch launch is free, as well as flying time. All you
have to pay is the anual fee of 128 EUR (64 EUR for students) and a
fee of 255 EUR (for 50 hours) that covers all winch launches and all
flying time.

We have ASK-21, DG-505, Ka-8b, 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, Super Dimona,
Robin Remorqueur). We also own our airfield as well as three hangars.
Yes, we can also offer national team members as instructors, and
instruction is for free.... :)

I don't think that my club is an exception for a German gliding club.

Unfortunately our weather can't match yours (half the cloud base -
half the prize... lol). :)
But you are correct - the examples illustrate welll how a healthy club
can offer a lot for little money.



Bye
Andreas

[Ray Lovinggood]

Andreas didn't tell all of the story: The cheap flying
at his club isn't the only thing included in the price.
The dues also includes a bunch of friendly people
and great food! The folks who work in the club house
kitchen preparing Saturday evening and Sunday noon-day
meals did a terrific job when I was there, and I bet
that tradition has been kept over the years. And,
of course since the club is in Germany, the beer selection
on hand was, and continues to be, first rate! Man,
do I have great memories from my membership in that
club!

At 16:24 12 November 2003, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On 12 Nov 2003 00:42:29 -0800, (Clint)
>wrote:
>
>>There are lots of excellent gliding club websites and
>>most of them
>>give an indication of the rates for flying. It struck
>>me that the
>>Goldfields Gliding Club must have the cheapest rates
>>currently
>>anywhere in the world. Entry fee is about $14, annual
>>membership is
>>around $60, a winch launch costs less than $3 and an
>>minute is $0.14
>>(including K7, K13, ASK 21, ASK 23, ASW 19 and ASW
>>20). Instruction is
>>by an instructors panel which includes national team
>>members and world
>>record holders and is provided free of charge. The
>>club owns its own
>>airfield with hangerage available for private gliders
>>for $12/month
>>(thank goodness I don't have to rig my LAK every time
>>I want to fly).
>>The club has no dept and we try to keep the rates as
>>affordable for as
>>many people as possible.
>
>$0.14 per minute... makes $8.40 per hour.
>This translates into $420 per year for 50 hours. Add
>$60 for the
>annual fee and, say, $175 for about 70 winch launches,
>you end up at
>$655 per year.
>
>Which is about twice the sum you'd have to pay at my
>club. ;)
>
>In my club any winch launch is free, as well as flying
>time. All you
>have to pay is the anual fee of 128 EUR (64 EUR for
>students) and a
>fee of 255 EUR (for 50 hours) that covers all winch
>launches and all
>flying time.
>
>We have ASK-21, DG-505, Ka-8b, 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27,
>Super Dimona,
>Robin Remorqueur). We also own our airfield as well
>as three hangars.
>Yes, we can also offer national team members as instructors,
>and
>instruction is for free.... :)
>
>I don't think that my club is an exception for a German
>gliding club.
>
>Unfortunately our weather can't match yours (half the
>cloud base -
>half the prize... lol). :)
>But you are correct - the examples illustrate welll
>how a healthy club
>can offer a lot for little money.
>
>
>
>Bye
>Andreas
>

[Janusz Kesik]

I did take a look at the rates, and it's affordable, but maybe not the =
cheapest.
Just to compare the rates, here are these from my club in Poland (in US =
Dollars):

Entry fee: None.
Annual membership: 84$
Winch launch: n/a (in most clubs it's below 2$
Tow (400/600m): 6.5$ / 7.5$
Glider time: Free of charge.
Parachute, Barograph: Free of charge.

So, considering a person who flies a lot in club gliders (some 15 =
gliders) it's even cheaper. But, don't be distracted by this. I would =
say the affordability of flying should be measured considering the =
salaries in the region. Then, the South Africans may be in better =
situation.
I would like only to add, that the most clubs in Poland have lower rates =
(for clubs' mebers of course).

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl


U=BFytkownik Clint > w wiadomooci do grup =
dyskusyjnych =
gle.com...
> There are lots of excellent gliding club websites and most of them
> give an indication of the rates for flying. It struck me that the
> Goldfields Gliding Club must have the cheapest rates currently
> anywhere in the world. Entry fee is about $14, annual membership is
> around $60, a winch launch costs less than $3 and an minute is $0.14
> (including K7, K13, ASK 21, ASK 23, ASW 19 and ASW 20). Instruction is
> by an instructors panel which includes national team members and world
> record holders and is provided free of charge. The club owns its own
> airfield with hangerage available for private gliders for $12/month
> (thank goodness I don't have to rig my LAK every time I want to fly).
> The club has no dept and we try to keep the rates as affordable for as
> many people as possible.
>=20
> Couple these rates to some of the best thermal conditions around with
> masses of large, flat fields and it feels as if I fly at the best club
> in the world.
>=20
> Clinton
> LAK 12

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Nov 2003 16:48:02 GMT, Ray Lovinggood
> wrote:

>Andreas didn't tell all of the story: The cheap flying
>at his club isn't the only thing included in the price.
> The dues also includes a bunch of friendly people
>and great food! The folks who work in the club house
>kitchen preparing Saturday evening and Sunday noon-day
>meals did a terrific job when I was there, and I bet
>that tradition has been kept over the years.

Indeed... and I have to admit that I forgot to mention that these
friendly people are active pilots (this is the nasty side of my
club... lol): Anyone has his kitchen duty weekends once or twice per
year (tendency is towards one weekend these days since the club has
grown a lot since you left, Ray. 85 active members compared to 55).

>And,
>of course since the club is in Germany, the beer selection
>on hand was, and continues to be, first rate! Man,
>do I have great memories from my membership in that
>club!

:)))))


.... did I already mention that we have more female (and really
pretty!) young pilots than males at the moment?



Bye
Andreas

[Craig Freeman]

"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message >...
> I did take a look at the rates, and it's affordable, but maybe not the
> cheapest.
> Just to compare the rates, here are these from my club in Poland (in US
> Dollars):
>
> Entry fee: None.
> Annual membership: 84$
> Winch launch: n/a (in most clubs it's below 2$
> Tow (400/600m): 6.5$ / 7.5$
> Glider time: Free of charge.
> Parachute, Barograph: Free of charge.
>
> So, considering a person who flies a lot in club gliders (some 15
> gliders) it's even cheaper. But, don't be distracted by this. I would
> say the affordability of flying should be measured considering the
> salaries in the region. Then, the South Africans may be in better
> situation.
> I would like only to add, that the most clubs in Poland have lower rates
> (for clubs' mebers of course).
>
> Regards,
>
>
> --
> Janusz Kesik
>
> visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl
>

OK Andreas and Janusz I just gotta know where does the scratch, dough,
frogskins, moolah, change, MONEY come from to purchase all this really,
really nice soaring equipment? Somehow clubs in the Good Ole US of A
don't seem so well stocked with soaring inventory even though by your
standards the dues are outrageously high. Are we comparing apples to
apples here?

Craig-

[Bob Lepp]

Wow! Janusz, what other income does the club have? Anything from
government or commercial sources? How can you offer free flying with
tow fees that likely don't cover the fuel costs alone?

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Andreas Maurer" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Nov 2003 16:48:02 GMT, Ray Lovinggood
> > wrote:
>
> >Andreas didn't tell all of the story: The cheap flying
> >at his club isn't the only thing included in the price.
> > The dues also includes a bunch of friendly people
> >and great food! The folks who work in the club house
> >kitchen preparing Saturday evening and Sunday noon-day
> >meals did a terrific job when I was there, and I bet
> >that tradition has been kept over the years.
>
> Indeed... and I have to admit that I forgot to mention that these
> friendly people are active pilots (this is the nasty side of my
> club... lol): Anyone has his kitchen duty weekends once or twice per
> year (tendency is towards one weekend these days since the club has
> grown a lot since you left, Ray. 85 active members compared to 55).
>
> >And,
> >of course since the club is in Germany, the beer selection
> >on hand was, and continues to be, first rate! Man,
> >do I have great memories from my membership in that
> >club!
>
> :)))))
>
>
> ... did I already mention that we have more female (and really
> pretty!) young pilots than males at the moment?
>
>
Hmmmm, emigration beckons.

Frank

[Janusz Kesik]

U=BFytkownik Bob Lepp > w wiadomooci do grup =
dyskusyjnych =
gle.com...
> Wow! Janusz, what other income does the club have? Anything from
> government or commercial sources? How can you offer free flying with
> tow fees that likely don't cover the fuel costs alone?

Well, it's true that the club gets a good amount of funds every year =
from the mayor of Czestochowa, but the most of it's property has been =
inherited after the communism era (probably the only bright side of this =
dark system). In these days all the clubs in Poland were funded and =
backed by government. In return they were the kindergarten for the =
military pilots... One of it's symptoms was that the medical =
requirements for glider pilots were almost the same as for the MiG =
pilots. I remember that even after the communism fell, in 1994 when I =
was been trained for the first solo, for my ab-initio course, including =
theory and board (who wanted could sleep in the guesthouse at the afld) =
I had to pay the equivalent of 100US$. :) Now the course (including =
theory) which consists of some 50 flights costs some 900US$.

All the club gliders except for one PW-5 were bought by govt and then =
handed to the club. Now, we only operate them, and there are no =
prospects for new gliders coming to the club's hangar unless they are =
privately owned. The worst thing is that the wooden SZD gliders in =
Poland have to be inspected every 200h / 3 years which expires the =
first. Every inspection costs around 1000$ and there are at least 6-7 =
gliders which must be inspected every year.

Also, as You noted, the cost of fuel may be not covered by the fees. If =
the Wilga burns some 55l / h and the fuel price per litre is almost the =
same like the price for gallon in the US... In my opinion it's just =
eating away club's capital. :-/ I continuously appeal to look for a =
winch, which should dramatically lower the costs, but it seems there's =
noone listening. I feel it will end in a few years, and we'll be forced =
to take the western model with the privately owned gliders, maybe with =
one doubleseater owned by the club for training purposes and a winch, =
because using the towplane consumes heaps of dollars.

That's how it looks here... As long as the government / municipality =
helps, it works better or worse. When it ends, it will be the end of the =
club too.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[Janusz Kesik]

In 99% of Polish clubs (some 50 clubs) the equipment has been handed by =
the goverment bodies during the communism era (It's the only nice =
thought I have got on it). There are very few gliders bought after =
1989yr and most of them were funded by municipalities or other goverment =
supported bodies. Just to give the example, the PW-5 in my club was =
bought with the help of the mayor of Czestochowa, or the two PW-6s used =
at Rzeszow were bought by Rzeszow Polytechnic University, which has an =
aviation department. Add to this few modern competition gliders bought =
by the Polish Aeroclub to provide equipment for the National Team (most =
of them fly at Leszno).

Now, the most new registrations of gliders in Poland are privately owned =
gliders, mostly Jantars which are reexported back to Poland from Russia =
or CIS countries in general. They have a good prices and in my club =
there are three Jantars Std. 3 which came back to their home country and =
a LAK-12.

So... You may be right, the apples may differ at least...


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

> OK Andreas and Janusz I just gotta know where does the scratch, dough,
> frogskins, moolah, change, MONEY come from to purchase all this =
really,
> really nice soaring equipment? Somehow clubs in the Good Ole US of A
> don't seem so well stocked with soaring inventory even though by your
> standards the dues are outrageously high. Are we comparing apples to=20
> apples here?
>=20
> Craig-

[Craig Freeman]

>
> Well, it's true that the club gets a good amount of funds every year
> from the mayor of Czestochowa... snip
>
> That's how it looks here... As long as the government / municipality
> helps, it works better or worse. When it ends, it will be the end of the
> club too.
>
> Regards,


You have displayed great wisdom and insight in your assessment of the
future of soaring in your country. The only problem with being free and
independent is you are free and independant. That's a problem I will
greatfully accept. The lesson here is that we in the US think that
cheap equals best and that if clubs were cheaper we could draw more
members. Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
thats most likely what it is worth. In order to maintain our clubs,
increase membership, and preserve soaring, clubs need to take a close
look at the income stream produced by the club activities and make
adjustments as needed to insure thier own future. Amen, pass the plate,
go eat lunch.

Craig-

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Nov 2003 16:40:39 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

>OK Andreas and Janusz I just gotta know where does the scratch, dough,
>frogskins, moolah, change, MONEY come from to purchase all this really,
>really nice soaring equipment? Somehow clubs in the Good Ole US of A
>don't seem so well stocked with soaring inventory even though by your
>standards the dues are outrageously high. Are we comparing apples to
>apples here?

Good question, Craig. :)

First of all, we have no professional staff - anything is done on
voluntary basis. Each active member has a schedule of several weekend
duties per year (winch driver, kitchen, instructor, tow pilot, and so
on) and in the winter the active members do ALL the maintenance of
aircraft, club hous and airfield. This is the main advantage of a club
- it saves a lot of money each year. It helps that we have relatively
many active pilots (85 at the moment including student pilots) -
usually between 20 and 30 pilots are there on a given day.

The advantage of this system is clear I guess - on the other hand, you
cannot schedule a flight for a certain time. An active pilot needs to
stay on the airfield for a major part of the day (at least), and
usually has to share a glider with two to three comrades per day.

Plenty of flying is done during the week where you have a glider for
yourself. This is usually cross-country flying, instructing is only
done by scheduled instructors on the weekend (of course, if you find a
willing instructor, you can have an appointment with him anytime).

Very important was the fact that we've been flying on a military
(French Army) training terrain for which we had to pay nearly no rent.


Since 40 years my club has always tried to buy as modern gliders as
possible (the idea was/is to have at least one top-performance glider
for our competition pilots). If you buy a new glider in Germany, you
get significant tax abatements (in the range of 20 percent iirc), and
we usually kept the glider for about 10-14 years. So far we were
always able to sell the glider for more money than we had to pay for
it when it was new (In case of your G-103 Twin 2, we even earned
18.000 DM more when we sold it for 60.000 DM after 13 years in 1995
-we bought it for 42.000 DM, unfortunately the DG-505 to replace it
cost 130.000), and the purchase of the next (new) glider) cost us only
an additional charge minus tax abatement. This system has been working
very well in the past, but the latest generation of gliders (e.g.
ASW-27) is that much more expensive than its predecessor generation
(ASW-20) that this system is probably not going to work anymore in the
future.

At the moment we have an order for a Duo Discus that is going to
complement our fleet (we need more seats since the club has grown a
lot in the recent 15 years - from 55 to 85 active pilots), but we are
not sure yet if we will be able to pay it (we are still paying back
150.000 EUR for our part of the airfield that we bought in 1999). We
could get the AS-22-2 (ASH-25 prototype) for less than half the price
of the new Duo, but so far we are not sure yet what to do.


On the other hand - these days gliders don't wear out anymore. If
necessary, a re-finishing (we are doing this by ourselves) is cheap
(but lots of work) and then the glider is as new again, so it's likely
that gliders will be kept for a longer time (15-17 years at least) in
the future.

Until now if you needed a glider for a competition/training
course/vacation, you did not have to pay for it - all you needed was
to ask the executive board and show some above-average dedication.


The gliders were usually financed by members' loans (members loan the
money, get a little more interest than they'd get on their check
account, yet this interest is a lot lower than the usual bank's
interest for a credit). On the long run this system has proved to be a
lot more effective than saving the money till it's enough to buy a
glider.

Other incomes of the club are rare - few contributions, a little
excess of competitions we hold. Winch, tow plane and club house are
calculated that they pay their own costs, we don't earn money with
them).

Intersting note:
Until perhaps five, six years ago privately owned gliders were
forbidden in my club. We had the fear that members with a private
glider would dedicate their time rather on their own means than
working for the club. These days we have half a dozen of privately
owned gliders, and most of their owners still work very well for the
club, so I expect that we are going to see more privately owned
gliders in the future.


One important factor is the payment: We have a flat rate for (winch
launched) flying. This flat rate of about 255 EUR covers all the costs
for winch launching and flying time. The benefit is simple: It does
not matter if you are doing one launch or ten, if you fly ten minutes
or 5 hours. Fly as often as you like (as the others let you... lol).

This leads to the fact that there's alwas plenty of activity on the
airfield, even if the weather is not exhilarating. And in the
beginning of the year it's already clear how much money is going to be
earned over the year - bad weather (with little flying) will not
result in a loss of income for the club. A safe base for calculations.

Our primary launch system, the winch, is very cheap to operate and
very reliable, so it doesn't matter if our tow plane, the Robin
Remorqeur, is grounded for a week because of maintenance (we do this
by ourselves - takes longer, but costs nearly nothing).

All our gliders have a full physical damage insurance.



These are some basics.
I guess it's clear that the basis of a successful club is one thing -
companionship.
To us this is so important that we express this in the club's name:

DJK-SegelflugGEMEINSCHAFT Landau.
http://www.djk-landau.de





Bye
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On 13 Nov 2003 08:52:31 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

>Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
>have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
>thats most likely what it is worth.

Maybe it's like that in the US, but here in Europe it's definitely the
"bang for the bucks" ratio that counts.

Apart from that, in Germany usually (I'd estimate 95 percent of the
cases) the choice of the glider club to join is based on the people,
not on the equipment.



Bye
Andreas

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> On the other hand - these days gliders don't wear out anymore. If
> necessary, a re-finishing (we are doing this by ourselves) is cheap
> (but lots of work) and then the glider is as new again, so it's likely
> that gliders will be kept for a longer time (15-17 years at least) in
> the future.

You sound positively rich.

Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
years.

In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
mention.

-- Bruce

[Craig Freeman]

Andreas Maurer > wrote in message >...
> On 13 Nov 2003 08:52:31 -0800, (Craig
> Freeman) wrote:
>
> >Look around, the most active clubs with the best equipment
> >have higher than average dues and flight fees. If it does not cost much
> >thats most likely what it is worth.
>
> Maybe it's like that in the US, but here in Europe it's definitely the
> "bang for the bucks" ratio that counts.

Value is always important. Unfortunatly the tendency in too many cases
is to try to operate so cheaply that a club does not have enough money to
make a pop, much less a bang. I am afraid that is commiting suicide for
the club.
>
> Apart from that, in Germany usually (I'd estimate 95 percent of the
> cases) the choice of the glider club to join is based on the people,
> not on the equipment.

Here clubs are so spread out it is not a choice of which club as there
is usually just one to pick from. However I think that good equipment
and friendly people are equally important. Not to slight the importance
of either but to emphisize both as nessesary qualities of a good club.
>
> Craig-

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:22:21 +1300, Bruce Hoult >
wrote:

>Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
>(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
>else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
>old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
>years.

Hmm... how does your club work (number of members, fees, et cetera)?
maybe we are comparing apples with oranges here....

>In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
>outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
>mention.

Indeed - used old gliders offer a lot of little money, but in my
opinion it's not necessarily the best thing for a club to have old
equipment only.

Bye
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On 14 Nov 2003 07:55:35 -0800, (Craig
Freeman) wrote:

> Value is always important. Unfortunatly the tendency in too many cases
> is to try to operate so cheaply that a club does not have enough money to
> make a pop, much less a bang. I am afraid that is commiting suicide for
> the club.

Well... it is certainly possible to operate cheaply and to make enough
money to keep a club alive and healthy, but probably an important role
is the sheer number of members - and this is where Europe, especially
German or England with its dense population has a huge advantage over,
say, the US.
I'm often amazed about the extremely high costs and the comparably
very poor value that is being offered by clubs in the US - maybe this
is a vicious circle.


> Here clubs are so spread out it is not a choice of which club as there
> is usually just one to pick from. However I think that good equipment
> and friendly people are equally important. Not to slight the importance
> of either but to emphisize both as nessesary qualities of a good club.

From what I've seen most people here join the first club they visit,
without ever comparing it to other clubs. It's extremely rare that
someone leaves a club (and joins onother one) because he doesn't like
it (which points out how important community is on this side of the
pond).


Bye
Andreas

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:22:21 +1300, Bruce Hoult >
> wrote:
>
> >Our club owns six gliders: three two seaters, and three single seaters
> >(all glass). The two PW-5's are only eight years old, but everything
> >else (2 x Twin Astir, 1 x Janus, 1 x Std Libelle) is 25 or more years
> >old, though all but the Libelle have been purchased in the last ten
> >years.
>
> Hmm... how does your club work (number of members, fees, et cetera)?
> maybe we are comparing apples with oranges here....

Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
for the year.


> >In fact the vast majority of the privately owned gliders (which far
> >outnumber the club ones) are also more than the 15-17 years old you
> >mention.
>
> Indeed - used old gliders offer a lot of little money, but in my
> opinion it's not necessarily the best thing for a club to have old
> equipment only.

Hey, we only just got rid of the last of the Blaniks!

I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
better utilization.

-- Bruce

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:29:50 +1300, Bruce Hoult >
wrote:

>Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
Are these active pilots?

>Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
>chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
>$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
>min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
>gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
>semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
>for the year.

Hmm.. looks pretty expensive to me I have to admit, but I guess it's
normal niveau for the US. How many hours do the club's gliders fly per
year? What special expenses does your club have to pay (tow plane
maintenance, instructor fees, aifield maintenance, insurances, etc.)?
Many owners of private aircraft wo seldom fly the club's aircraft?
How many student pilots?

I know.. a lot of questions.. ;)

>I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
>money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
>I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
>order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
>money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
>better utilization.

Well... to be honest, the difference between our "old" G-103 and the
"new" DG-505 was not that great. The cause why we usually buy new
gliders was and is simply that with our medium-term financing a new
glider is as expensive as a used one. It's more important to have a
sufficient number of seats than to have a glider with 7 points better
L/D.


Bye
Andreas

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Andreas Maurer > wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:29:50 +1300, Bruce Hoult >
> wrote:
>
> >Membership varies between maybe 80 - 100 depending on the economy.
> Are these active pilots?

Some of course are not that active.

So far this spring the most gliders I've seen in the air at once is 13,
with the tow plane sitting doing nothing once they were all lanched.


> >Annual fees are I think something like US$150 - $200, including a good
> >chunk that goes to the national organization. Landing charges are about
> >$7/month/flying member (flat rate). Tows are about $3/min (typically 6
> >min to 2000 ft for 2 seaters, less for singles). Casual hire of club
> >gliders is about US$30/hour, less if you pay an extra annual (or
> >semi-annual) fee, including this year $0/hour if you pay an extra US$500
> >for the year.
>
> Hmm.. looks pretty expensive to me I have to admit, but I guess it's
> normal niveau for the US.

This is in New Zealand. I haven't flown many places in the US, but they
have generally been much more expensive (except, possibly, for tows),
and have usually had worse equipment (e.g. 2-33s). The Chicago Gliding
Club is I think the only exception I've seen, but I'm pretty sure it's
unusual for the US.


> >I'm sure we'd love to have a fleet of new equipment, but that would cost
> >money that we don't have, or require reducing the size of the fleet.
> >I've heard talk recently of selling the Janus and one of the Grobs in
> >order to put the money towards a new DG 1000. It wouldn't be enough
> >money, of course, and would leave us with less capacity, though perhaps
> >better utilization.
>
> Well... to be honest, the difference between our "old" G-103 and the
> "new" DG-505 was not that great. The cause why we usually buy new
> gliders was and is simply that with our medium-term financing a new
> glider is as expensive as a used one. It's more important to have a
> sufficient number of seats than to have a glider with 7 points better
> L/D.

I agree and I would not support the above proposal. While it might be
nice to replace the Janus with a DG1000 (or Duo Discus), as far as I can
tell there is almost zero performance difference, with only the
"handling" being better. I think the Janus is just fine, but perhaps it
would be more useful as a trainer with some small modifications, such as
a nose hook. Reducing the number of available seats would be I think
silly.

-- Bruce

[Lennie the Lurker]

Andreas Maurer > wrote in message >...
>
>(which points out how important community is on this side of the
> pond).
>

No, it doesn't. Read your own statement, and if you don't see
snobbery, it's because you're blind to it.

Our sense of community extends far beyond some wisp like activity,
usually extending to the REAL community we just happen to live in.