Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

Side sticks seem pretty popular in powered aircraft. Personally like them.
In sailplanes they have the additional advantage of allowing either a smaller cockpit (less drag) or more room. Diana, HP18 and several older designs have them.

Yet, they seem highly unpopular. Why would a well-designed sidesticks not be liked, just because it's different, or are there reasons I'm missing?

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 7:14:48 AM UTC-5, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
> Side sticks seem pretty popular in powered aircraft. Personally like them.
> In sailplanes they have the additional advantage of allowing either a smaller cockpit (less drag) or more room. Diana, HP18 and several older designs have them.
>
> Yet, they seem highly unpopular. Why would a well-designed sidesticks not be liked, just because it's different, or are there reasons I'm missing?

Had a side stick for a decade. Center stick is just better. Having a fuselage big enough to pack a lunch and a sensible landout kit is a good thing, too.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:08:07 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:

> On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 7:14:48 AM UTC-5, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
>> Side sticks seem pretty popular in powered aircraft. Personally like
>> them.
>> In sailplanes they have the additional advantage of allowing either a
>> smaller cockpit (less drag) or more room. Diana, HP18 and several older
>> designs have them.
>>
>> Yet, they seem highly unpopular. Why would a well-designed sidesticks
>> not be liked, just because it's different, or are there reasons I'm
>> missing?
>
> Had a side stick for a decade. Center stick is just better.
>
Can you expand a bit, please?

I wondered if the short grip-pivot lever might raise stick forces in roll
and/or coarsen aileron control, but I've flown a DG-300, which has a
similarly short grip-pivot distance on the roll axis as well as the same
sliding pitch motion and don't recall that I found the control feel a lot
different from a centre stick.

The only thing I recall that's comment-worthy is that the DG-300's
'automatic trim' system has a more friction in it than the Libelle's
system, but that has nothing to do with side sticks.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dan Marotta]

I've never flown one but, if the pitch control is sliding rather than
pivoting, I don't think I'd like it. I learned to fly with my wrist,
not my arm. It just seems to me that it would be more work than
relaxation. Again, I've never flown one.


On 2/19/2017 5:14 AM, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
> Side sticks seem pretty popular in powered aircraft. Personally like them.
> In sailplanes they have the additional advantage of allowing either a smaller cockpit (less drag) or more room. Diana, HP18 and several older designs have them.
>
> Yet, they seem highly unpopular. Why would a well-designed sidesticks not be liked, just because it's different, or are there reasons I'm missing?

--
Dan, 5J

[Vaughn Simon[_2_]]

On 2/19/2017 7:14 AM, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
> Why would a well-designed sidesticks not be liked,

Like others here, I've never flown with a side stick. That said, in
gliders I've probably switched hands on the control stick countless
times for more reasons than I could possibly enumerate here. I'm
thinking that would be difficult or impossible with a side stick.

Most airplanes with side sticks have auto pilots to free up the pilot's
hands for other chores, gliders don't.

Vaughn

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 9:59:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:08:07 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:

> > Had a side stick for a decade. Center stick is just better.
> >
> Can you expand a bit, please?

Sure. I think the irreducible issue is simply one of leverage and limited motion options. There's only one way to grip the stick, there's only one way to interact with it.

All of the side stick designs I've seen for direct mechanical actuation of controls require a sliding fore/aft motion for elevator (elbow + shoulder) and a rolling motion of the wrist for aileron. Blending those motions with finesse is just more work (more fatigue) than a conventional gimballed stick. I landed out a couple of times in my side stick glider simply because I got tired and sloppy after 4+ hours and couldn't climb well. Coordination never became unconscious in that ship.

The other things that I don't like about side stick equipped gliders tend to be the *reasons* designers opted for side sticks, not the sticks themselves: supine seating position, lousy forward visibility, tiny instrument pods, cockpits with no extra space for anything.

That said, I have always had a desire to fly (but not own!) a Diana2, just because the thing was so radical.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 2/19/2017 5:14 AM, J. Nieuwenhuize wrote:
> Side sticks seem pretty popular in powered aircraft. Personally like them.
> In sailplanes they have the additional advantage of allowing either a
> smaller cockpit (less drag) or more room. Diana, HP18 and several older
> designs have them.
>
> Yet, they seem highly unpopular. Why would a well-designed sidesticks not
> be liked, just because it's different, or are there reasons I'm missing?
>
Occam suggests one should never overlook the power of "popular/inertial
thinking," but that noted, and based on >2000 hours in a side-stick-equipped
sailplane...

Unmitigated Pros:
- Unrestricted lap space (*I* like it!)

Double-edge swords:
- slider in pitch (not pivoting at base...quite noticeable on first flight;
strictly a conceptual difference thereafter. But given the light
elevator/all-flying-tail forces, part of me has never quit wondering how a
"pivoting implementation" in this ship woulda compared.)
- relatively high roll forces in my ship's implementation, compared to pitch
(and rudder) forces, so definitely "a different feel" from the vast majority
of sailplanes out there; not inherently dangerous, but..."quirky?"
- neutral aileron at "some angle" to the cockpit wall (i.e. not
vertical/"obvious"). After the "controls free?" part of my checklist, aileron
neutralization done by centering the stick between the limits of its lateral
throws, as distinct from centering it vertically as most pilots probably do
"without thinking." Dealing with T.O. crosswinds/gusts is as intuitively
obvious as any center stick implementation with which I'm familiar.

Kinda-sorta related, Dick Johnson noted this particular ship's "neutral stick
position" implementation had possibilities for uncommanded roll inputs under
high/low-G inputs (think rotor turbulence), but I've never found that an
issue. This may be somewhat a function of aileron forces, too...

As for pitch, normal in-flight pitch changes I find most smoothly met by how
much I curl my fingers. Though the stick has "quite a range" of pitch throw,
normal flight uses very little of it...mostly (in my experience) occasionally
on takeoff in very gusty conditions.

I've seen/helped-rig other side-stick-ships (Diamant HBV, HP-18), I don't know
whether they were "sliders" or "pivoters" in pitch, but I imagine any
side-sticker would have the beer-around-the-campfire "pitch/roll funkiness"
available for opinionating.

As a natural right-hander, I've often imagined adapting to a left-side stick
(think many powerplanes) would require far more "mental adaptation" on my part
than did adapting to my Zuni's right-side-stick. Maybe some Airbus-driving
glider pilots will chime in?

FWIW, I transitioned into my side-sticker with 400 total hours and zero
outside checkout advice, and quit thinking about it "being different" within
two or three flights. Over the years for that matter, it's never been much of
conversation starter in BS sessions...though I suppose that option is always
there depending upon one's personality. :)

Bob W.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 2/19/2017 9:02 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 9:59:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:08:07 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:
>
>>> Had a side stick for a decade. Center stick is just better.
>>>
>> Can you expand a bit, please?
>
> Sure...
(Snip...)

> All of the side stick designs I've seen for direct mechanical actuation of
> controls require a sliding fore/aft motion for elevator (elbow + shoulder)
> and a rolling motion of the wrist for aileron. Blending those motions with
> finesse is just more work (more fatigue) than a conventional gimballed
> stick. I landed out a couple of times in my side stick glider simply
> because I got tired and sloppy after 4+ hours and couldn't climb well.
> Coordination never became unconscious in that ship.

"Mercy!" he exclaims about having to landout. I never suffered that particular
fate as a result of my side stick (longest single-flight time >9 hours), but I
concur with the sentiment of that last sentence. Coordinating my Zuni is
another of those things that's "different" about the ship...as was
coordinating my (similarly high-in-roll w. light pitch forces) HP-14 before
it. Not dangerous or difficult, just "not unconscious," as in always on the
fringes of my awareness. But, from my perspective, simultaneously never a
problem, just "different."

FWIW - for readers unfamiliar with the HP-14, HP-18, Zuni designs - Evan's
HP-18 (side stick) and my HP-14 (center stick) are both fully supine designs,
while the (original side-stick-design) Zuni has a "standard semi-reclined"
seating position...with a normally-sized cockpit and instrument pod and view
outside.

I transitioned into my HP-14 with ~200 total hours and put ~200 hours on it
before transitioning into the Zuni. No "German quality" optics on either, the
HP-14 having more distortion thanks to looking though its flat-wrapped forward
canopy section at very shallow in-flight angles. I always found that more of a
"mental nuisance" than I did anything about the fully-reclined seating (*very*
comfortable IMO). Ditto its quite narrow - even for thin, small-framed me -
cockpit with limited sandwich space...though it had eNORmous space atop/after
the spars for water (sucked via tube), multiple O2 tanks, a tent (aerotowed to
a camp once), etc. Of course all visual complaints vanished upon use of
landing flaps (I always used 90-degrees in the HP). So its supine pilot
position may well have been somewhat problematic for old-style,
visually-acquired turnpoints, in contest flying when the HP-14 was designed...

Bob W.

[Tango Eight]

It's probably worth adding that there were a number of factors that made the HP-18 a lot of work to fly well, among them irreducible play in the stick aileron motion, no aileron differential(!!), small tail volume, no hands off stability at all. It wasn't really my intention to blame the wear out factor on the stick location, but it probably came out that way.

-Evan

[Michael Opitz]

>As a natural right-hander, I've often imagined adapting to a left-
side
>stick
>(think many powerplanes) would require far more "mental
adaptation" on my
>part
>than did adapting to my Zuni's right-side-stick. Maybe some
Airbus-driving glider pilots will chime in?
>
I have about 3500 hours in the left seat of the A-319/320. It
turned out to be no big deal with a the stick in my left hand. I also
have time in the F-16 with a right side stick. Both aircraft's sticks
are mounted vertically, so the neutral position is in the center. The
biggest issue I had was that both aircraft are "fly by wire", which
means that the stick inputs which you make go to a computer as
electrical signals, and then the computer ("HAL" in the F-16, and
"FIFI" in the A 320) gets to decide what you are trying to get the
aircraft to do, and then sends the signals on to the flight control
power units. Sometimes, things get interpreted as in a normal
aircraft, but there are occasions where one has to make somewhat
un-natural control inputs in order to get the computer to get the
aircraft to do what you want it to do....(a whole other off-topic
story)

I like flying with a side stick. It feels natural. On the Airbus, it
allows room to have a tray table for approach plates (if you don't yet
have an electronic cockpit) and meals, etc instead of having a yoke
in the way.

On the down-side, it is hard to reach across the cockpit to fly with
the other hand in case one needs to do so. Think taking a combat
hit to one arm, or other more mundane chores. A center stick
makes flying with either hand much easier.....

RO

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 08:02:38 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:

> On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 9:59:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:08:07 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:
>
>> > Had a side stick for a decade. Center stick is just better.
>> >
>> Can you expand a bit, please?
>
> Sure. I think the irreducible issue is simply one of leverage and
> limited motion options. There's only one way to grip the stick, there's
> only one way to interact with it.
>
> All of the side stick designs I've seen for direct mechanical actuation
> of controls require a sliding fore/aft motion for elevator (elbow +
> shoulder) and a rolling motion of the wrist for aileron. Blending those
> motions with finesse is just more work (more fatigue) than a
> conventional gimballed stick. I landed out a couple of times in my side
> stick glider simply because I got tired and sloppy after 4+ hours and
> couldn't climb well. Coordination never became unconscious in that
> ship.
>
> The other things that I don't like about side stick equipped gliders
> tend to be the *reasons* designers opted for side sticks, not the sticks
> themselves: supine seating position, lousy forward visibility, tiny
> instrument pods, cockpits with no extra space for anything.
>
> That said, I have always had a desire to fly (but not own!) a Diana2,
> just because the thing was so radical.
>
Thanks for the additional detail. Like you I'd like to check out a Diana
2 for comfort and forward visibility and wonder if cricked necks could be
a problem. I entirely understand your point about about panel space.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 09:46:35 -0700, Bob Whelan wrote:

> As a natural right-hander, I've often imagined adapting to a left-side
> stick (think many powerplanes) would require far more "mental
> adaptation" on my part than did adapting to my Zuni's right-side-stick.
> Maybe some Airbus-driving glider pilots will chime in?
>
As a natural left-hander, I do most things left-handed. Yes, I built Free
Flight models with the timer on the left but the start trigger on the
right and I start engines left-handed. However, I had no problem learning
to fly gliders right-handed: that was a non-issue. These days I normally
fly right-handed and use my left for fiddling with instruments. I only
swap hands in the Libelle to raise or lower the wheel.

The only other thing I'm exclusively right-handed for is using cameras,
which all seem to be designed by right-handers for right-handers.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Del Jensen]

How does a side stick compare to a parallelogram stick (e.g. Glasflugel)?

[Dan Marotta]

Again, I've never flown a side stick, though if you think about it, a
simple Cessna with a yoke is flown with the left hand, ala side stick.

The parallelogram stick in the Mosquito feels better than a floor
gimballed center stick. It's very smooth operating and the throw is
small enough that you can fly with wrist motion. Very nice.

On 2/19/2017 2:06 PM, Del Jensen wrote:
> How does a side stick compare to a parallelogram stick (e.g. Glasflugel)?
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 13:06:04 -0800, Del Jensen wrote:

> How does a side stick compare to a parallelogram stick (e.g.
> Glasflugel)?

DG-300 is also a parallelogram stick AFAIK. I've not flown a Glasflugel
Mosquito but I have sat in one I was considering buying and handled the
stick. The Mossy and the DG-300 sticks seemed pretty similar except that
the Mossy's trim worked a lot better. From what others have said, it
sounds as though the side stick is less 'natural' because centralised
ailerons mean the handle sticks out horizontally from the cockpit wall
but in the DG-300/Mossy its vertical like a conventional stick. Both side
and parallelogram sticks require you to rotate your wrist to operate the
ailerons, though with a parallelogram stick that would depend on just how
you hold the stick.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

Are the differences in jets documented? The Saab Gripen has a center stick for example, despite being newer than an F-16.
Russians also standardized center stick.

[Michael Opitz]

At 06:12 20 February 2017, wrote:
>Are the differences in jets documented? The Saab Gripen has a
center stick
>for example, despite being newer than an F-16.
>Russians also standardized center stick.
>
Sure, they are documented. You can Google it. Stick location comes
down to manufacturer, engineer, and pilot preferences. Like I said, if a
fighter pilot takes combat hits and has injuries, then a center stick is
more accessible by either hand. On the flip side, if you are flying close

formation and maneuvering, the inflating and deflating g-suit on your
legs can cause one to bobble the stick if one uses one's thigh as a
forearm brace. (allows one to make very small corrections using the
wrists and fingers alone without moving the entire arm) That's why
the Blue Angels don't use g-suits. The side stick in this case has a
retractable forearm brace that is attached to the side of the cockpit,
which provides a rock-solid platform for one's forearm... Lockheed
products (F-16, F-22, F-35) have side sticks. Boeing / MD products
favor center sticks. As far as I know, all of the fighter side sticks
are mounted vertically with a center-up neutral point. Most (if not all)
are "fly by wire" and thus have pressure sensors embedded to sense
forces applied. This translates to maybe only 1 cm of actual stick
movement compared to a glider with manual controls (thus big control
stick deflections to incorporate into the cockpit design) and a stick that

has a neutral point laying on it's side ~50-90° to it's left. In a glider

cockpit, one would lose all of the space saving benefits of a side stick if

one mounted it vertically.
RO

[Bob Kuykendall]

I finally got a few minutes to respond in the long form. Here are a bunch of points in no particular order:

* For a human factors class towards my psych minor, my semester project was comparing a sliding side stick with a pivoting center stick for a simple tracking task. The results suggested that tracking was improved when it involved angular displacement of the wrist. Tracking was also improved with greater linear and angular travel.

* Because of their size and general characteristics, sailplanes tend to have long control system paths and also a lot of roll and yaw inertia. Flying a sailplane is definitely work in the technical sense of a force applied over a distance (control stick travel). The shorter the travel, the greater the force required to do the necessary work of defecting a control surface. But when you crowd the control stick up against the cockpit rail, you tend to run out of travel.

* From a practical perspective, if you're going to have a side stick, you improve its chances of working well if you:
-Maximize control stick travel
-Reduce control system friction
-Reduce control system slop and lost motion
-Increase control system stiffness (reduce "springiness")
-Reduce control system and surface inertia

To this end, some of the side stick implementations we've seen in the soaring world have been disappointing. In the HP-18, you get 4.3" of horizontal travel between full nose up and nose down. In that travel, you move two relatively large ruddervators that are sized and counterweighted more for their effect as rudders than as elevators. To move them, you slide 24 feet (!) of 5/8" aluminum tubing through a dozen raw nylon guides. The ailerons aren't much better, again using simple plastic guides. In both dimensions there tends to be a lot of slop and friction that effectively masks what little stability the ship has.

In the Zuni, the side stick is connected to an all-flying tailplane, which regardless of its demand for fine touch has a lot of inertia of its own.

* I flew an HP-18 once with the side stick, and converted it to center stick before I flew it again.

* I anticipate that we might see a resurgence in side stick adoption once fly by wire becomes more common. I figure we'll see a hybrid approach in which the control stick has a limited direct mechanical connection, say to the outboard flaperons and half of the elevator. That will be supplemented by electronic connections to inboard flaperons, spanwise camber control, and the other elevator half. Such a system would offer advanced control features including auto flaps, auto speed-to-fly, and perhaps even auto thermal centering, but still have enough control for a safe landing if the electronic stuff fails.

Thanks, Bob Kuykendall
https://www.facebook.com/HP-24-Sailplane-Project-200931354951
www.hpaircraft.com

[[email protected]]

I transitioned to Diana SZD-56 (identical side-stick to Diana 2) with 1500 hours. Gimbaled stick: no slide. It’s all in the wrist. Everyone asks how long does it take to get used to it? Answer: No time: it’s completely natural. Nobody believes me. But the stick is where my hand is. Central stick would be perfect if one’s hand came out of his fly.
“I like flying with a side stick. It feels natural.“ -Mike Opitz Feb 19
Switching hands? I’m not ambidextrous, but I have no trouble twiddling knobs with my left hand (or operating gear, spoilers or flapperons). And without a central stick, the closer instrument panel is very handy, so to speak.
Left-handers? While sitting, rest your right hand on your right thigh, and left on left. Now pretend you’re flying with a gimbaled side-stick on your right. Ask your left hand to mimic the motions of your right. It’s as if your hands were connected by a parallelogram.
“…no big deal with the stick in my left hand. -Mike Opitz Feb 19
“…I'd like to check out a Diana 2 for comfort and forward visibility and wonder if cricked necks could be a problem.” -Martin Gregorie Feb 19
Diana’s seating is almost too comfortable! Isn’t there an FAR against napping at altitude? Diana’s transparent canopy goes nearly to the nose, so forward visibility is as good as it can be. I never had a cricked neck, but looking up was a bit awkward. So I spring-loaded the headrest pivot. Now when I look up at clouds (or the rare glider temporarily above me) the headrest swivels down and then pops back up for cruising. Perfect!
-Jack Wyman

[Soartech]

I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world.. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
> wrote:

>I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural.

Just a question:
How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say,
take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel?

Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand?

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
> > wrote:
>
>> I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight
>> sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a
>> sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were
>> clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in
>> our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more
>> natural.
>
> Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right
> hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel?
>
> Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand?
>

Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud
personal protestations of "bestness?" :)

Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a
center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside)
stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on
the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a
center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required*
switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel.

That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick -
to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to
operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with
still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make
it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider
cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can
operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress!

Bob W.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 8:23:23 PM UTC+3, Bob Whelan wrote:
> On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight
> >> sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a
> >> sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were
> >> clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in
> >> our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more
> >> natural.
> >
> > Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right
> > hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel?
> >
> > Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand?
> >
>
> Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud
> personal protestations of "bestness?" :)
>
> Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a
> center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside)
> stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on
> the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a
> center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required*
> switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel.
>
> That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick -
> to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to
> operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with
> still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make
> it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider
> cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can
> operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress!

Which channel?

Gliders seem to in general be fine hands-off for 30 seconds or so at a time. Usually the thing that makes me nudge the stick first is bank/heading, as it takes quite a lot longer for the phugoid to get out of control.

[Jonathon May]

At 17:56 23 February 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 8:23:23 PM UTC+3, Bob Whelan wrote:
>> On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium
>ultralight
>> >> sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a
>> >> sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were
>> >> clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad
rap
>in
>> >> our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more
>> >> natural.
>> >
>> > Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your
>right
>> > hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel?
>> >
>> > Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand?
>> >
>>
>> Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly
>loud
>> personal protestations of "bestness?" :)
>>
>> Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs
>from a
>> center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my
(rightside)
>
>> stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always
depended
>on
>> the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a
>> center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required*

>> switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel.
>>
>> That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center
>stick -
>> to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand
to
>
>> operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics
today
>with
>> still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind
-
>make
>> it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a
>glider
>> cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can

>> operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress!
>
>Which channel?
>
>Gliders seem to in general be fine hands-off for 30 seconds or so at a
>time. Usually the thing that makes me nudge the stick first is
>bank/heading, as it takes quite a lot longer for the phugoid to get out
of
>control.

Is it just me,
With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same time,I
never think about it.
Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left
Center stick has to be best.
>

[sisu1a]

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 9:23:23 AM UTC-8, Bob Whelan wrote:
> On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight
> >> sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a
> >> sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were
> >> clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in
> >> our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more
> >> natural.
> >
> > Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right
> > hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel?
> >
> > Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand?
> >
>
> Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud
> personal protestations of "bestness?" :)
>
> Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a
> center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside)
> stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on
> the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a
> center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required*
> switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel.
>
> That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick -
> to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to
> operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with
> still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make
> it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider
> cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can
> operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress!
>
> Bob W.

Ergonomics, human factors... something not touched on yet is that a center stick allows your body to become the 'armrest', which adds a whole lot more nerves to the biological servo feedback loop, plus your leg even gets involved in stabilizing inputs under certain conditions.

A center stick also allows a larger 'throw range', spreading the same inputs across a larger physical area translates into finer granular resolution.

Center stick can be flown with eitehr hand in case you need to do something with your right hand.

Center stick is a longer lever, thus allowing less muscle to hold it steady or affect inputs, which generally translates into increased precision, plus allows the use of 2 hands as Jonothon points out.

[Michael Opitz]

>Is it just me,
>With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same
time,I
>never think about it.
>Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left
>Center stick has to be best.


OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and
thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be
going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it
creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone,
and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very
small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a
stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings.
Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as
well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure
along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going
straight back.

So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With
a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick
straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to
make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all
while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with
either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am
thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so
I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots
prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I
also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever
they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a
competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be
less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were.

Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the
wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference
one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are
good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick.

RO

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I have heard from several very experienced pilots that it is easier to turn left than right, but in my thousands of hours of flying gliders, helicopters and various powered aircraft I have not found this to be true for me, a turn in either direction is the same other than if torque or LTE considerations. A glider has neither consideration. I do try to change thermal direction every other thermal. But I am confused as to why a pilot would think it is easier to turn in one direction.

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 2:45:04 PM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote:
> >Is it just me,
> >With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same
> time,I
> >never think about it.
> >Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left
> >Center stick has to be best.
>
>
> OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and
> thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be
> going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it
> creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone,
> and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very
> small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a
> stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings.
> Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as
> well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure
> along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going
> straight back.
>
> So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With
> a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick
> straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to
> make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all
> while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with
> either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am
> thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so
> I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots
> prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I
> also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever
> they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a
> competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be
> less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were.
>
> Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the
> wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference
> one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are
> good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick.
>
> RO

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

>> With the centre stick I fly with both hands, sometimes at
>> the same time, I never think about it. Gear, ballast vent on the right,
>> brakes, trim release on left. Center stick has to be best.
>
>
> OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and thus
> the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going
> marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates more
> lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep
> from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top
> aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and
> equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes
> faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to hold
> slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to have
> the yaw string going straight back.
>
> So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a
> center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick straight
> back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right
> turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using your
> right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that I use
> the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George Moffat and
> Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially
> explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always flying
> with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated right
> hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a
> thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors
> would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were.
>
> Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the wrist,
> and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn
> direction over another, but with a center stick there are good reasons to
> be able or want to switch hands on the stick.

Interestingly (to me, anyway) enough, early-on I found myself preferring
left-hand circles in a (center-sticked) 1-26, which bothered me
intellectually...but upon transitioning to a (center-sticked, 15-meter)
Concept 70 I could detect no turn direction bias. Eventually I concluded my
in-turn visibility was better in the 1-26 in a left turn than in a right turn,
almost certainly due to the (somewhat poor, for 5'9" me) straight-ahead viz in
the 1-26, and it was easier to bias my whole torso to the left for best
in-turn viz than it was to the right. Doing so to the right felt somehow
"forced," perhaps due to where my right elbow ended up, somewhat scrunched
into a corner of the cockpit. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me to
try a right hand turn using my left one on the stick.

With no apparent visibility bias in the ("normal/semi-reclined" pilot
position) C70, there was no turn-direction bias...which remained the case
until I transitioned into my (side-sticked, similar-to-C70-seating position)
Zuni, when (briefly) a left-turn bias reappeared. Once my right forearm
muscles adapted to/strengthened from the grunt required to lift/horse the
(heavy in roll) stick to the right, the bias again disappeared, and - as it
should be, IMO - whichever side on which I encountered the thermal lift
dictated initial bank direction.

Having essentially zero experience in earlier-generation, long-spanned, ships
(commonly flown by Moffat and Johnson), perhaps some aspect of muscle power
bias might be a factor for some in them? In any event, these sorts of
considerations seem to me to be pretty much toward the fringe of ship-handling
attributes...real enough, but far from deal-killers to (most?) potential
purchasers. Of course, if money were no object, then I might think about "ship
quirks" differently!

Bob W.

[Dan Marotta]

I've always felt it was easier to push the stick to the left while
pulling it back (pitch control) than it was to pull it right while
pulling. For me it has to do with the mechanics of the wrist and elbow
joints. The more stick throw required, the more apparent it is to me
sitting on my couch and pretending to fly. It's obvious to me that,
with a long throw, a center stick is preferable, with a short throw, not
so much. I really think it comes down to preference and I can get used
to anything. In the Stemme, I take off with my left hand so I can keep
my right on the throttle. I land with my right hand so I can keep my
left on the dive brake lever. After securing the engine, I switch off
hands now and then to fiddle with an instrument (the soaring stuff is in
the middle of the panel to my right), to eat an apple, or just for a
change of pace.


On 2/23/2017 7:21 PM, Bob Whelan wrote:
>>> With the centre stick I fly with both hands, sometimes at
>>> the same time, I never think about it. Gear, ballast vent on the right,
>>> brakes, trim release on left. Center stick has to be best.
>>
>>
>> OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and
>> thus
>> the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going
>> marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates
>> more
>> lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep
>> from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top
>> aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and
>> equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes
>> faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to
>> hold
>> slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to
>> have
>> the yaw string going straight back.
>>
>> So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a
>> center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick
>> straight
>> back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right
>> turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using
>> your
>> right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that
>> I use
>> the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George
>> Moffat and
>> Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially
>> explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always
>> flying
>> with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated
>> right
>> hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a
>> thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors
>> would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were.
>>
>> Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the
>> wrist,
>> and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn
>> direction over another, but with a center stick there are good
>> reasons to
>> be able or want to switch hands on the stick.
>
> Interestingly (to me, anyway) enough, early-on I found myself
> preferring left-hand circles in a (center-sticked) 1-26, which
> bothered me intellectually...but upon transitioning to a
> (center-sticked, 15-meter) Concept 70 I could detect no turn direction
> bias. Eventually I concluded my in-turn visibility was better in the
> 1-26 in a left turn than in a right turn, almost certainly due to the
> (somewhat poor, for 5'9" me) straight-ahead viz in the 1-26, and it
> was easier to bias my whole torso to the left for best in-turn viz
> than it was to the right. Doing so to the right felt somehow "forced,"
> perhaps due to where my right elbow ended up, somewhat scrunched into
> a corner of the cockpit. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me
> to try a right hand turn using my left one on the stick.
>
> With no apparent visibility bias in the ("normal/semi-reclined" pilot
> position) C70, there was no turn-direction bias...which remained the
> case until I transitioned into my (side-sticked,
> similar-to-C70-seating position) Zuni, when (briefly) a left-turn bias
> reappeared. Once my right forearm muscles adapted to/strengthened from
> the grunt required to lift/horse the (heavy in roll) stick to the
> right, the bias again disappeared, and - as it should be, IMO -
> whichever side on which I encountered the thermal lift dictated
> initial bank direction.
>
> Having essentially zero experience in earlier-generation,
> long-spanned, ships (commonly flown by Moffat and Johnson), perhaps
> some aspect of muscle power bias might be a factor for some in them?
> In any event, these sorts of considerations seem to me to be pretty
> much toward the fringe of ship-handling attributes...real enough, but
> far from deal-killers to (most?) potential purchasers. Of course, if
> money were no object, then I might think about "ship quirks" differently!
>
> Bob W.

--
Dan, 5J