ELT's are a joke

[Buck Wild]

I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on
it,
There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your
exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try
to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the
transmitter is operating continuosly draining those questionable D
cells that have been in the unit for...how long? Hokey Smokes! let's
get caught up with the '90's. It's crazy, flying along and having
center call you to ask if you hear an elt signal while you're at FL310
over the LA basin. Yeah, we hear it, so now what? If it were a gps
signal, center would know right away it's just a helicopter sitting in
the hanger an hour after a firm landing. A millisecond burst would
require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type &
"N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once,
and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot
could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy.
Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it
should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less.
Why don't we all have these?
-Dan

[Larry Pardue]

I believe the part about not doing a search.

You pretty accurately describe the new 406 Mhz personal locator beacons.

http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/185236-1.html

http://www.provantage.com/buy-22081414-mcmurdo-pains-wessex-electronics-fast
find-plus-406-epirb-personal-location-beacon-plb-gps-shopping.htm

Larry Pardue 2I
n5lp.net



> I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on
> it,
> There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your
> exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try
> to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the
> transmitter is operating continuosly draining those questionable D
> cells that have been in the unit for...how long? Hokey Smokes! let's
> get caught up with the '90's. It's crazy, flying along and having
> center call you to ask if you hear an elt signal while you're at FL310
> over the LA basin. Yeah, we hear it, so now what? If it were a gps
> signal, center would know right away it's just a helicopter sitting in
> the hanger an hour after a firm landing. A millisecond burst would
> require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type &
> "N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once,
> and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot
> could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy.
> Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it
> should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less.
> Why don't we all have these?
> -Dan

[Tony Verhulst]

> ......A millisecond burst would
> require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type &
> "N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once,
> and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot
> could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy.
> Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it
> should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less.
> Why don't we all have these?

The 1.6 GHz EPIRBs are already available:


The 1.6GHz EPIRB uses the INMARSAT satellites in geostationary orbit.
These satellites do not fly around the planet and appear to remain in
one fixed spot over the earths surface, (the stationary part of
geostationary).


They are equipped with a GPS receiver so that when they are activated
the alert signal, beacon ID and beacon position are transmitted.


See http://www.navtec.de/english/epirb2.htm

Tony V.

[Marc Ramsey]

At 20:00 14 November 2003, Buck Wild wrote:
>I've said it before, though I haven't done an
>extensive web search on it, There's gotta be
>an elt available that sends one short burst
>with your exact GPS location to a satalite

What you are looking for is a 406 MHz ELT. They transmit
a message burst every 50 seconds, rather than emitting
a continuous signal. The reason a priodic message
is required is that the primary emergency receivers
are on polar orbiting satellites, and there may not
be one overhead at any given moment. The aircraft
versions also supports broadcasting position info using
an external GPS connected via an ARINC 429 bus.

>Why don't we all have these?

Most because a TSO'd 121.5 MHz ELT costs around $200,
whereas a TSO'd 406 Mhz ELT costs $5000+ (a GPS with
a 429 bus will cost you a few thousand more). You
can get a marine 406 MHz ELT for under $1000, but they
don't have a G-switch...

Marc

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Buck Wild wrote:

> ...There's gotta be an elt available that
> sends one short burst with your exact
> GPS location to a satalite...

Sorta off-topic, but sorta not:

Last year, me and a couple of friends sitting around
the table at Air Sailing had a big ol' discussion about
that. One of the controversial ideas that came out
of that was that perhaps the best predictor of accident
survival was how long it took emergency crews to reach
the accident site. What we figured is that glider pilots
need something like the OnStar system that they put
in Cadillacs and such.

What we hashed out was a GPS-enabled system capable
of sensing a crash impact, and further capable of determining
the proximity to civilization and the nature of the
surrounding terrain. With that information at hand,
the box would assess the impact energy and location,
and place a satellite call for a MediFlight helicopter
or ambulance as appropriate.

Just some into-the-box thinking.

Bob K.

[Tony Verhulst]

Larry Pardue wrote:
> I believe the part about not doing a search.
>
> You pretty accurately describe the new 406 Mhz personal locator beacons.

Though much better thatn the 121.5 MHz units, I don't believe that the
406's transmit GPS coordinates like the 1.6 GHz units do - they use
doppler shift instead. My understanding is that the 406 MHz units
provide a 1KM resolution. Much better than the 121.5's but if you go
down into a forest.... not good enough, IMHO. See
http://www.navtec.de/english/elts.htm

Tony V.

[Tony Verhulst]

> Sorta off-topic, but sorta not:

Also a bit off topic but this summer (July), a club member made an
"off-field landing" in a forest in an LS4-b. He was slightly injured and
was trapped in the aircraft. He radiod his GPS cooordinates to a club
tow plane, 20 miles away. The plane landed at the gliderport, loaded an
oberver with a portable GPS and set off. Even though they had the exact
position, it took several minutes to spot him though the forest canopy.
They circled over the crash site and guided rescuers until help arrived.

The police later credited the tow plane crew for significantly reducing
the rescue time.

Tony V.

[Marc Ramsey]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
> Though much better thatn the 121.5 MHz units, I don't believe that the
> 406's transmit GPS coordinates like the 1.6 GHz units do - they use
> doppler shift instead. My understanding is that the 406 MHz units
> provide a 1KM resolution. Much better than the 121.5's but if you go
> down into a forest.... not good enough, IMHO. See
> http://www.navtec.de/english/elts.htm

A 406 MHz ELT can transmit GPS position. I believe EPIRB was designed
primarily for marine applications. The primary receivers are on
geostationary satellites, which may not be very helpful if you happen to
be in a canyon, or on the wrong side of a mountain...

Marc

[Lennie the Lurker]

(Buck Wild) wrote in message >...


> the price of a 'chute or less.
> Why don't we all have these?
> -Dan

A single tone modulated am transmitter can consist of very few parts.
You're thinking something that can be activated after the crash has
already occurred, highly unlikely all that circuitry would function
after a crash.

However, let us know how your development comes along. Just remember
the market is too small to pay more than $50 per year to the
developer.

Sorry, dud, but digital encoding may be relatively simple and now
small, but making complex and accurate is going to blow the hell out
of development costs.

[ISoar]

Is a APRS (Automatic Postition Reporting System) enabled ham radio a
reasonable substitute?

Intro: http://nwaprs.org/downloads/WhatIsAPRS.pdf

Way more info: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html




On 14 Nov 2003 11:49:19 -0800, (Buck Wild) wrote:

>I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on
>it,
>There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your
>exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try
>to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the

[Bill Daniels]

"ISoar" > wrote in message
...
> Is a APRS (Automatic Postition Reporting System) enabled ham radio a
> reasonable substitute?
>
> Intro: http://nwaprs.org/downloads/WhatIsAPRS.pdf
>
> Way more info: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html
>
Probably not for SAR since PLT's work fine BUT what a great idea for team
flying.

I note that Winpilot can plot team members position on the moving map
display. Link members of the team with APRS and feed the data to Winpilot
and each could see the position of the others.

Bill Daniels

[JJ Sinclair]

Hi Gang, me again.
Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation has
got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT
antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the crash. At
best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24 hours.

So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think it's our
aircraft radio. Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who
answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the
evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30 in
the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio, as a
back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the
antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-58) as I could
and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your new
antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could have
done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line and
the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start calling,
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't
forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best time to
brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces will
be listening at these times.

I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but what
if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket
knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a knife and
matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance.

Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't require
any of the above.
JJ Sinclair

[Al]

http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-view.asp?threadid=885&posts=1

Al



"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Gang, me again.
> Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation
has
> got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT
> antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the
crash. At
> best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24
hours.
>
> So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think
it's our
> aircraft radio. Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who
> answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the
> evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30
in
> the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio,
as a
> back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the
> antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-58) as I
could
> and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your
new
> antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could
have
> done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line
and
> the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start
calling,
> MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't
> forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best
time to
> brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces
will
> be listening at these times.
>
> I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but
what
> if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket
> knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a
knife and
> matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance.
>
> Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't
require
> any of the above.
> JJ Sinclair

[Eric Greenwell]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Hi Gang, me again.
> Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation has
> got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT
> antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the crash. At
> best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24 hours.

At best, how about less than an hour? Happened to a friend of mine when
he crashed his glider. It wasn't a search plane, but an officer on the
ground sent to check on the ELT signal. It can be much longer, of course.

> So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think it's our
> aircraft radio.

If the glider is upside down, or the crash was so severe the ELT was
damaged, it seems this is unlikely to be successful, because the radio,
batteries, wiring, and antenna will be probably be damaged. An ELT is
much more rugged than the normal VHF radio system. An ELT would've still
functioned in the crash near Hemet, while the glider radio didn't. Had
the crash disabled the pilot, it wouldn't matter if the VHF radio still
worked, while the ELT would've activated.

These considerations, plus the ability to fly my motorglider when no
other glider pilots are flying, and the ability to fly out of range of
my crew radio, led me to install an ELT. An ELT is not perfect, but it's
not expensive over it's lifetime of, say, 15 years: $15-$30/year for the
unit including battery changes.

JJ's comments for coping with the situation (no ELT, no cell phone
contact, no portable VHF) make good sense, however. I would add a signal
mirror to his parachute pack.

> Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who
> answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the
> evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30 in
> the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio, as a
> back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the
> antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-58) as I could
> and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your new
> antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could have
> done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line and
> the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start calling,
> MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't
> forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best time to
> brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces will
> be listening at these times.
>
> I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but what
> if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket
> knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a knife and
> matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance.
>
> Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't require
> any of the above.
> JJ Sinclair

[Ray Payne]

try doing it in the frence alpes you plonker

[JJ Sinclair]

Eric wrote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ability to fly my motorglider when no
other glider pilots are flying,

Eric,
Wasn't that the subject of a recent rules change proposal?
:>)

JJ Sinclair

[Duane Eisenbeiss]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
>
> ........... These considerations, plus the ability to fly my motorglider
when no
> other glider pilots are flying, ............> >
> >

Hey Eric, in a previous thread with JJ, I thought that you said that you
did not do that!
(Just couldn't resist)
Duane

[Eric Greenwell]

Duane Eisenbeiss wrote:

> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>........... These considerations, plus the ability to fly my motorglider
>
> when no
>
>>other glider pilots are flying, ............> >
>>
>
> Hey Eric, in a previous thread with JJ, I thought that you said that you
> did not do that!
> (Just couldn't resist)

Never said that! I often fly during the week, which means most pilots
aren't even around, except for the few other retired motorglider pilots.
So, this often means I'm the only glider pilot flying.

Note that I didn't say "I often fly when it's unsoarable". It's 2.5
times more likely to be soarable during the week....
--
-----
Replace "SPAM" with "charter" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Robert Ehrlich]

ISoar wrote:
>
> Is a APRS (Automatic Postition Reporting System) enabled ham radio a
> reasonable substitute?
>
> Intro: http://nwaprs.org/downloads/WhatIsAPRS.pdf
>
> Way more info: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html
>

An experimentation was done in my club with a such system, not as
an emergency locator, but as a continuous position reporting
system, and the experimentation was susccesful. It could be better
than an emergency locator, since this last system, unless very resilient
and so expensive, may be destroyed in a crash, while a permanent
reporting system gives a last known position before the crash.
However the reason for which we didn't adopt this system for all
gliders in the club was the lack of available frequency. The both
way we tried it were both illegal, one of them was using the
radio of the glider on the airfield frequency, the other one was
using a couple of talkie-walkies, allowed only for ground to ground
transmission. See http://bipspevv.free.fr (sorry only in French).

[Eric Greenwell]

Buck Wild wrote:
> I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on
> it,
> There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your
> exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try
> to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna,

Does ATC radar log the radar positions of VFR traffic squawking 1200? I
know they do it for codes assigned to airliners. If they did, it might
provide a way to locate crashed glider that was using a transponder.

--
-----
Replace "SPAM" with "charter" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Ged McKnight]

Joining this thread pretty late, but has anyone considered
buying the Breitling Emergency wrist watch??
It has its own built in emergency transmitter on 121.5

www.breitling.com professional emergency

will give full details

Ged

At 19:12 17 November 2003, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Buck Wild wrote:
>> I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive
>>web search on
>> it,
>> There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short
>>burst with your
>> exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having
>>the boy scouts try
>> to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna,
>>
>
>Does ATC radar log the radar positions of VFR traffic
>squawking 1200? I
>know they do it for codes assigned to airliners. If
>they did, it might
>provide a way to locate crashed glider that was using
>a transponder.
>
> --
>-----
>Replace 'SPAM' with 'charter' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>
>

[RamyYanetz]

Why not using HAM radios instead (under license of course)? I used the Kenwood
unit with hang gliders over 5 years ago, but at the time it wasn't completly
reliable. If anyone experimented with it and can recommend a complete setup
from GPS to web site where flights can be tracked real time, I will love to
hear about it.

Ramy

[Bert Willing]

I guess this is just a marketing gadget. No automatic triggering, very
limited range, small batteries...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ged McKnight" > a écrit dans le
message de ...
> Joining this thread pretty late, but has anyone considered
> buying the Breitling Emergency wrist watch??
> It has its own built in emergency transmitter on 121.5
>
> www.breitling.com professional emergency
>
> will give full details
>
> Ged
>
> At 19:12 17 November 2003, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >Buck Wild wrote:
> >> I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive
> >>web search on
> >> it,
> >> There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short
> >>burst with your
> >> exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having
> >>the boy scouts try
> >> to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna,
> >>
> >
> >Does ATC radar log the radar positions of VFR traffic
> >squawking 1200? I
> >know they do it for codes assigned to airliners. If
> >they did, it might
> >provide a way to locate crashed glider that was using
> >a transponder.
> >
> > --
> >-----
> >Replace 'SPAM' with 'charter' to email me directly
> >
> >Eric Greenwell
> >Washington State
> >USA
> >
> >
>
>
>