View Full Version : looking for a set of ASW 19 ailerons
Kerry Kirby
February 24th 17, 02:13 PM
Our club has an ASW 19 and something has caused the ailerons distort to the point we have to replace them. In trying to trace salvage gliders I keep running into "privacy" issues. Anyone out there have any leads?
Thanks
Kerry Kirby (or should I have signed anonymous?)
Bob Kuykendall
February 24th 17, 10:14 PM
You're going to have a lot more success if you say where in the world you are.
It would also be nice to know what sort of distortion you're talking about. If they're twisted or unusually bent, that could be a problem. But if they've just got a lot of small dents wrinkles, or waves, that's just the way they tend to look after a few decades.
Except when they are brand new, flaps and ailerons for ASW 19 and the like will always be pretty gnarly looking. In order to give them enough bending flex so they can follow the wings as they bend, they have to be very lightly built. So they tend not to be very rugged, and they tend to get wavy as they age. It looks kind of sad, but I've never known one to be unflightworthy because of it.
When I tore apart an ASW20 flap section a while back, I found that the basic layup was two plies of +/-45-deg. 2oz Kevlar separated by ~1/8" (3mm) Rohacell foam. The leading edge area at the upper and lower pivot radii was two piece of solid spanwise balsa joined with a shmoo bar joint. Except for that leading edge, there just isn't much there there. For contrast, most wing skins from that era have about ~9oz fiberglass on the outside, ~1/4 (6mm) of PVC foam, and ~5oz of fiberglass on the inside of the foam.
Thanks, Bob K.
https://www.facebook.com/HP-24-Sailplane-Project-200931354951/
February 24th 17, 10:16 PM
I checked the Skycraft website and unfortunately they don't list any. They may be worth contacting for leads or in case the site isn't up to date I suppose.
http://www.sky-craft.co.uk/acatalog/Used_parts_for_Sailplanes.html
Kerry Kirby
February 24th 17, 11:00 PM
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 5:14:51 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> You're going to have a lot more success if you say where in the world you are.
>
> It would also be nice to know what sort of distortion you're talking about. If they're twisted or unusually bent, that could be a problem. But if they've just got a lot of small dents wrinkles, or waves, that's just the way they tend to look after a few decades.
>
> Except when they are brand new, flaps and ailerons for ASW 19 and the like will always be pretty gnarly looking. In order to give them enough bending flex so they can follow the wings as they bend, they have to be very lightly built. So they tend not to be very rugged, and they tend to get wavy as they age. It looks kind of sad, but I've never known one to be unflightworthy because of it.
>
> When I tore apart an ASW20 flap section a while back, I found that the basic layup was two plies of +/-45-deg. 2oz Kevlar separated by ~1/8" (3mm) Rohacell foam. The leading edge area at the upper and lower pivot radii was two piece of solid spanwise balsa joined with a shmoo bar joint. Except for that leading edge, there just isn't much there there. For contrast, most wing skins from that era have about ~9oz fiberglass on the outside, ~1/4 (6mm) of PVC foam, and ~5oz of fiberglass on the inside of the foam.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.
> https://www.facebook.com/HP-24-Sailplane-Project-200931354951/
How bad are they? Real bad. I am not in front of them now but from memory, leading edge to trailing edge they dip / sag more then a 1/4" and they are only what 7" front to back? each bay does the same and top and bottom do the same. One upon a time the gel coat was replaced with PU. We think it was filled with filler at that point. They were checked and found to be unbalanced and the filler was taken down. that was 10 years ago and they have gotten worse every year. no one knows the cause. From 100 feet away you say " what the hell" hope that gives you an idea of "bad" Glider is in Canada but we would be happy if we found a set in the Artic.
Any leads appreciated.
Thanks
Kerry
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
February 24th 17, 11:24 PM
On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 14:16:15 -0800, ifeelill wrote:
> I checked the Skycraft website and unfortunately they don't list any.
> They may be worth contacting for leads or in case the site isn't up to
> date I suppose.
>
> http://www.sky-craft.co.uk/acatalog/Used_parts_for_Sailplanes.html
You could also try Zulu Glasstek, www.zulu-glasstek.co.uk
They are the UK Schleicher agents. They also buy written-off gliders for
spares and repair parts.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
February 25th 17, 12:52 AM
Your first step is probably to quantify the condition yours are in. From your description they sound pretty bad, but you probably ought to do a rigorous survey of the dips and sags to find how deep the worst ones really are. That way you know what you really have.
Your next step may be to contact the factory and see if they have any leftovers, or perhaps damaged ones from a factory repair. Ailerons that have been broken cleanly are probably easier to fix than the ones you describe.
You should probably also call all the Usual Suspects to see what they have in the rafters:
Eds Hollestelle (Solaire Canada)
Eastern Sailplane
JJ Sinclair
Williams Soaring
Robert Mudd in Moriarty
Fidel in Moriarty
Mark Grubb in Tehachapi
If worst comes to worst, I can show you how to make them; that is allowed here in the US under 14CFR§21.9(a)5, and may be allowed under similar Canadian rules. Basically, we'd take your existing ailerons, profile and paint them so they are nice and pretty, then make a set of splash molds off of those. Then you'd make replacements in the molds. Ideally we'd get the factory lamination plan from Schleicher, otherwise you'd have to tear apart your existing parts to figure out what's on the inside.
Thanks, Bob K.
Bob Kuykendall
February 25th 17, 12:56 AM
Your first step is probably to quantify the condition yours are in. From your description they sound pretty bad, but you probably ought to do a rigorous survey of the dips and sags to find how deep the worst ones really are. That way you know what you really have.
Your next step may be to contact the factory and see if they have any leftovers, or perhaps damaged ones from a factory repair. Ailerons that have been broken cleanly are probably easier to fix than the ones you describe.
You should probably also call all the Usual Suspects to see what they have in the rafters:
Eds Hollestelle (Solaire Canada)
Eastern Sailplane
JJ Sinclair
Williams Soaring
Robert Mudd in Moriarty
Fidel in Moriarty
Mark Grubb in Tehachapi
If worst comes to worst, I can show you how to make them; that is allowed here in the US under 14CFR§21.9(a)5, and may be allowed under similar Canadian rules. Basically, we'd take your existing ailerons, profile and paint them so they are nice and pretty, then make a set of splash molds off of those. Then you'd make replacements in the molds. Ideally we'd get the factory lamination plan from Schleicher, otherwise you'd have to tear apart your existing parts to figure out what's on the inside.
Thanks, Bob K.
JS
February 25th 17, 01:00 AM
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> Your first step is probably to quantify the condition yours are in. From your description they sound pretty bad, but you probably ought to do a rigorous survey of the dips and sags to find how deep the worst ones really are.. That way you know what you really have.
>
> Your next step may be to contact the factory and see if they have any leftovers, or perhaps damaged ones from a factory repair. Ailerons that have been broken cleanly are probably easier to fix than the ones you describe.
>
> You should probably also call all the Usual Suspects to see what they have in the rafters:
>
> Eds Hollestelle (Solaire Canada)
> Eastern Sailplane
> JJ Sinclair
> Williams Soaring
> Robert Mudd in Moriarty
> Fidel in Moriarty
> Mark Grubb in Tehachapi
>
> If worst comes to worst, I can show you how to make them; that is allowed here in the US under 14CFR§21.9(a)5, and may be allowed under similar Canadian rules. Basically, we'd take your existing ailerons, profile and paint them so they are nice and pretty, then make a set of splash molds off of those. Then you'd make replacements in the molds. Ideally we'd get the factory lamination plan from Schleicher, otherwise you'd have to tear apart your existing parts to figure out what's on the inside.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.
Bob, you left out Uncle Hank...
Jim
Bob Kuykendall
February 25th 17, 01:04 AM
> Bob, you left out Uncle Hank...
> Jim
Darn, so I did! That would be Hank Nixon. He regularly posts here, so he'll probably pipe up if see this thread and has any leads.
Thanks again, Bob K.
AS
February 25th 17, 03:13 AM
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 8:00:04 PM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 4:56:06 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > Your first step is probably to quantify the condition yours are in. From your description they sound pretty bad, but you probably ought to do a rigorous survey of the dips and sags to find how deep the worst ones really are. That way you know what you really have.
> >
> > Your next step may be to contact the factory and see if they have any leftovers, or perhaps damaged ones from a factory repair. Ailerons that have been broken cleanly are probably easier to fix than the ones you describe.
> >
> > You should probably also call all the Usual Suspects to see what they have in the rafters:
> >
> > Eds Hollestelle (Solaire Canada)
> > Eastern Sailplane
> > JJ Sinclair
> > Williams Soaring
> > Robert Mudd in Moriarty
> > Fidel in Moriarty
> > Mark Grubb in Tehachapi
> >
> > If worst comes to worst, I can show you how to make them; that is allowed here in the US under 14CFR§21.9(a)5, and may be allowed under similar Canadian rules. Basically, we'd take your existing ailerons, profile and paint them so they are nice and pretty, then make a set of splash molds off of those. Then you'd make replacements in the molds. Ideally we'd get the factory lamination plan from Schleicher, otherwise you'd have to tear apart your existing parts to figure out what's on the inside.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Bob, you left out Uncle Hank...
> Jim
..... and the Gehrleins in Waterford, PA. They had a good collection in their barn.
Uli
February 25th 17, 03:45 AM
None in my barn, unfortunately.
The probable cause of the deformation is the hydroscopi nature of Kevlar. Does the -19 live a humid place?
Kerry Kirby
February 25th 17, 04:04 AM
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 10:45:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> None in my barn, unfortunately.
>
> The probable cause of the deformation is the hydroscopi nature of Kevlar. Does the -19 live a humid place?
About the same humidity as PA. and it lives in a well ventilated dry trailer with a solar vent. I am not sure where it lived when it may have first developed the deformations though.
Kerry
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
February 25th 17, 05:21 AM
I wonder what would happen if you treat it like a dent in a wing skin? Careful application of heat (from a heat gun) to the low spots.
May not do much since there is no foam layer.
If the aileron is considered scrap at this point, may be worth a shot.
February 25th 17, 01:11 PM
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 10:45:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> None in my barn, unfortunately.
>
> The probable cause of the deformation is the hydroscopi nature of Kevlar. Does the -19 live a humid place?
No Kevlar in '19 ailerons.
Might possibly have in storage but would have to look next time I'm there.
UH
Dan Marotta
February 25th 17, 03:16 PM
I just spoke with Fidel. He does not have any ailerons for a '19. He
said that, based upon your description, he could repair them but it
would be expensive, though not as expensive as building a new set. Of
course, he would have to see them before he could make a cost estimate.
Good luck in your endeavor - the '19 is a great flying ship.
On 2/24/2017 5:52 PM, wrote:
> Your first step is probably to quantify the condition yours are in. From your description they sound pretty bad, but you probably ought to do a rigorous survey of the dips and sags to find how deep the worst ones really are. That way you know what you really have.
>
> Your next step may be to contact the factory and see if they have any leftovers, or perhaps damaged ones from a factory repair. Ailerons that have been broken cleanly are probably easier to fix than the ones you describe.
>
> You should probably also call all the Usual Suspects to see what they have in the rafters:
>
> Eds Hollestelle (Solaire Canada)
> Eastern Sailplane
> JJ Sinclair
> Williams Soaring
> Robert Mudd in Moriarty
> Fidel in Moriarty
> Mark Grubb in Tehachapi
>
> If worst comes to worst, I can show you how to make them; that is allowed here in the US under 14CFR§21.9(a)5, and may be allowed under similar Canadian rules. Basically, we'd take your existing ailerons, profile and paint them so they are nice and pretty, then make a set of splash molds off of those. Then you'd make replacements in the molds. Ideally we'd get the factory lamination plan from Schleicher, otherwise you'd have to tear apart your existing parts to figure out what's on the inside.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.
--
Dan, 5J
Hey Kerry, "Glider is in Canada but we would be happy if we found a set in the Artic."
Sooooo, in Canada then?
Good luck getting a Canadian inspector to allow use of a component that doesn't have paperwork showing complete history including total hours. I had a repaired rudder for a G-102 that I yellow tagged.................not good enough, because I couldn't prove the total hours on the rudder.
BTW, I got the rudder from the Vancover Soaring Club.................buyers?..........the Vancover Soaring Club!
JJ
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 8:11:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 10:45:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > None in my barn, unfortunately.
> >
> > The probable cause of the deformation is the hydroscopi nature of Kevlar. Does the -19 live a humid place?
>
> No Kevlar in '19 ailerons.
> Might possibly have in storage but would have to look next time I'm there.
> UH
Checked the storage spot. No ailerons for '19
UH
On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 6:28:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Good luck getting a Canadian inspector to allow use of a component that doesn't have paperwork showing complete history including total hours. I had a repaired rudder for a G-102 that I yellow tagged.................not good enough, because I couldn't prove the total hours on the rudder.
> BTW, I got the rudder from the Vancover Soaring Club.................buyers?..........the Vancover Soaring Club!
> JJ
Yeah JJ - I'm still sorry for wasting your time on that one but the only AMO we had to work with at the time just wouldn't let it "fly" sadly. We ended up having to wait for (and pay for) a new one from Lindner in the end.
Yeah, we got some NAZI inspectors down here, too!
BTW, don't believe I mentioned it, but just because a ship is "totaled", by the insurance company, doesn't mean it is "destroyed". Someone in your club told Transport Canada that the G-102 was "destroyed" and they De-registered it. I had to write to Transport Canada ant tell them it the ship wasn't "destroyed", it was only flown through a fence and in fact it had been imported to the US. Requested they tell our FAA about all this. Needless to say, this all took some time, but everything was straightened out by the time I got it back together.
Cheers,
JJ
Have you contacted Rex at Williams Soaring? My 19's ailerons have are warped as well. Rex has a Schleicher maintenance shop and might have a tolerance spec for the deformation of the fiberglass.
On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 6:13:18 AM UTC-8, Kerry Kirby wrote:
> Our club has an ASW 19 and something has caused the ailerons distort to the point we have to replace them. In trying to trace salvage gliders I keep running into "privacy" issues. Anyone out there have any leads?
>
> Thanks
> Kerry Kirby (or should I have signed anonymous?)
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