Do you crab or forward slip in X wind landings

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
> Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
> be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
> > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
> > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
>
> Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
> different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
> approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
> point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
> the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
> sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
> two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
> and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
> also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
> well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
> despite any cross-wind.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

-Evan

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

One comment on the crab method, you must transition to forward slip before touchdown. What if when you if you go to kick out the crab, just above runway and you find out that the x-wind is too strong for a forward slip to maintain track.

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:29:42 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
> > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
> > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
>
> Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
> different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
> approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
> point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
> the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
> sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
> two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
> and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
> also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
> well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
> despite any cross-wind.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:01:00 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> One comment on the crab method, you must transition to forward slip
> before touchdown. What if when you if you go to kick out the crab,
> just above runway and you find out that the x-wind is too strong for a
> forward slip to maintain track.
>
If I do the crab+held-off landing properly, I should be under 3 ft up (at
the very most: half that is better) and already sinking when I kick the
glider straight. If you're too early straightening up, of course you're
being blown sideways when you land.

AFAIK the upwind wing low technique you guys call 'forward slip' isn't
taught to UK glider pilots. I was never taught it and can't recall seeing
anybody using it on our field.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:00:50 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:

> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>
>> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
>> > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
>> > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
>> > crab.
>> > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
>> > might
>> > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
>>
>> Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
>> different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
>> approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
>> point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
>> the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
>> sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
>> the two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed
>> bleeds off and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it
>> settles. If you also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself
>> brownie points as well as knowing that this will help to keep the
>> glider running straight despite any cross-wind.
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
>
> What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?
>
In my club, all of our trainers. We have a couple of ASK-21s, a Puchacz
and a G103 Twin Acro 2.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:04:02 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Wouldn't that be a "side slip" since the glider's fuselage is aligned with the runway (hopefully) while the windward wing is a little low?

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:04:02 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

I have found over the years that students have a much easier time dealing with cross wind using the slip method.
The aiming point does not change. They look right over the nose as usual.
They do not have to try to kick out a crab and move to a wing low attitude while trying to time the round out to a low energy landing.
Obviously they nee to be aware of their bank angle near the ground but the reduced drift down low seems to take care of that.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

I always use the slip method. Since the Stemme has conventional gear, I
land on the upwind main and the tail wheel simultaneously (if I did it
right) and, as speed bleeds off, the downwind wheel comes down. The
fuselage remains aligned with the runway the whole time.

On 2/25/2017 5:13 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:04:02 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
> I have found over the years that students have a much easier time dealing with cross wind using the slip method.
> The aiming point does not change. They look right over the nose as usual.
> They do not have to try to kick out a crab and move to a wing low attitude while trying to time the round out to a low energy landing.
> Obviously they nee to be aware of their bank angle near the ground but the reduced drift down low seems to take care of that.
> UH

--
Dan, 5J

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:04:02 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

slip will bleed off more energy than a crab. If you are low, a crab would be better. I tend to use slip as you can keep lined up on the approach and it is easy to adjust the slip for wind shear.

[Citrus Soaring]

Side slip is the easiest and most powerful form of crosswind correction. Simply use the rudder to keep the nose of the glider parallel to runway center line and lower the upwind wing enough to counter the wind. To much bank and you drift upwind of centerline. Side slip can be maintained all the way to the end of the roll out just by keeping the upwind wing low. If the cross wind is to strong for this method you shouldn't be flying or you should select a different runway.

Crab Requires a transition to a side slip just above the ground and almost guarantees a side loaded landing either from kicking to late or to soon and not getting into the side slip quick enough.

Forward slips are not really for crosswind correction they are more for glide path control.

[[email protected][_1_]]

Side slip for all the above reasons, especially for instruction. Translating from crab to slip in the flair or just at touchdown is unnecessarily complex. Establish the forward slip on final and hold that attitude until stopped.

However, I commonly "cheat" whilst flying the tug, crabbing until short final and then establishing the slip. Less pressure on the rudder foot/knee if doing lots of landing in the Pawnee.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 18:30:11 -0800 (PST), Citrus Soaring
> wrote:

>Side slip is the easiest and most powerful form of crosswind correction. Simply use the rudder to keep the nose of the glider parallel to runway center line and lower the upwind wing enough to counter the wind. To much bank and you drift upwind of centerline. Side slip can be maintained all the way to the end of the roll out just by keeping the upwind wing low. If the cross wind is to strong for this method you shouldn't be flying or you should select a different runway.
>
>Crab Requires a transition to a side slip just above the ground and almost guarantees a side loaded landing either from kicking to late or to soon and not getting into the side slip quick enough.
>
>Forward slips are not really for crosswind correction they are more for glide path control.




I wonder about the different methods that are taught - in Europe the
only acceptable method is crab, aligning with rhe runway heading
during the flare, and immediately touching down. Priority is to keep
the wings level all the time to reduce the chances of a ground loop in
case of an outlanding.

Is it grass strips vs. paved runways which we don't have in Europe?


Just a question (since I fly a glider where side slip would always
drag the wingtip on the ground before the main wheel touch down):

How do you cope with one wingtip lower than the other in case of an
outlanding on a field with higher crops? To me the side slip method is
a recipe for disaster in this case...
Do you teach both methods?




Cheers
Andreas

[Duster]

If you have altitude to burn you can do the the entire pattern using turning slips, and this can be a safer maneuver than the standard coordinated turns. Nevertheless, I prefer to crab when taking off and landing in a crosswind, even though you're performing a dreaded skid at the last moment.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 6:37:23 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> Side slip for all the above reasons, especially for instruction. Translating from crab to slip in the flair or just at touchdown is unnecessarily complex. Establish the forward slip on final and hold that attitude until stopped.

I don't know anyone who "transitions from crab to slip in the flair [sic]". You simply straighten up with wings level, and accept whatever minor sideways component the crosswind gives you in the two seconds before you touch down. Either you touch down going very slightly sideways, or you yaw a little past the runway heading to align with the direction the glider is actually going. Or, I guess, you could fly your final with a track slightly upwind of runway heading so that your track gets aligned by the crosswind during the flare.

It doesn't really matter on the wide lush grass runways we fly gliders from.. Maybe it's different if you're landing on a strip of concrete only a couple of meters wide.

Maintaining a slip all the way to the ground isn't a good idea in the long span low wing gliders we train in, especially if the grass is lush and/or uneven. Wings level!!! Again, it may be different in a 2-33.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:00:51 AM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >
> > > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> > > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> > > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
> > > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
> > > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
> >
> > Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
> > different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
> > approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
> > point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
> > the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
> > sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
> > two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
> > and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
> > also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
> > well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
> > despite any cross-wind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org |
>
> What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

I doubt people are doing *fully* held off landings i.e. with the glider actually stalling on. More likely it's "held off until the glider is in the same attitude it will have on the ground .. or a tiny bit more" and then allowed to settle in that attitude. As it slows, lift at that AoA becomes insufficient to support the glider, but there is never aerodynamic stall. Maximum AoA / CL is not reached. Once you touch the ground AoA can not be increased, so lift can't be, so you can't start flying again (absent a massive headwind gust) and the *objectives* of a "fully held off" landing are acheived..

Even nose-draggers like the ASK21 have a tail wheel and are landed main-and-tail or slightly tail first.

The only exception I know is the PW5. I've never seen anyone land a PW5 tail first. We had an informal challenge to do it when we first got ours. No one managed it.

[Jonathon May]

At 04:25 26 February 2017, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 18:30:11 -0800 (PST), Citrus Soaring
> wrote:
>
>>Side slip is the easiest and most powerful form of crosswind correction.
>Simply use the rudder to keep the nose of the glider parallel to runway
>center line and lower the upwind wing enough to counter the wind. To much
>bank and you drift upwind of centerline. Side slip can be maintained all
>the way to the end of the roll out just by keeping the upwind wing low.
If
>the cross wind is to strong for this method you shouldn't be flying or
you
>should select a different runway.
>>
>>Crab Requires a transition to a side slip just above the ground and
almost
>guarantees a side loaded landing either from kicking to late or to soon
and
>not getting into the side slip quick enough.
>>
>>Forward slips are not really for crosswind correction they are more for
>glide path control.
>
>
>
>
>I wonder about the different methods that are taught - in Europe the
>only acceptable method is crab, aligning with rhe runway heading
>during the flare, and immediately touching down. Priority is to keep
>the wings level all the time to reduce the chances of a ground loop in
>case of an outlanding.
>
>Is it grass strips vs. paved runways which we don't have in Europe?
>
>
>Just a question (since I fly a glider where side slip would always
>drag the wingtip on the ground before the main wheel touch down):
>
>How do you cope with one wingtip lower than the other in case of an
>outlanding on a field with higher crops? To me the side slip method is
>a recipe for disaster in this case...
>Do you teach both methods?
>
>
>
>
>Cheers
>Andreas
>
>

I think it depends on what you are flying and the surface you are landing
on
The modern ships like Ventus 3 and arcus seem to have high wing tips as did

the early American stuff so slip makes sense
The kestrel,nimbus generation ships had low tip clearance and a crab was
the
only way.
I was once told the are only 2 types of Kestrel owners ,those who have
ground looped and those who are going to
Nice soft grass is much more forgiving of a little sideways slide than high

friction paving

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:19:45 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:00:51 AM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> >
>> > > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
>> > > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
>> > > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
>> > > crab.
>> > > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
>> > > might
>> > > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.
>> >
>> > Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
>> > different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
>> > approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
>> > point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless
>> > of the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the
>> > only sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I
>> > think the two are related because this keeps the wings level while
>> > speed bleeds off and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as
>> > it settles. If you also manage a neat two-pointer you can award
>> > yourself brownie points as well as knowing that this will help to
>> > keep the glider running straight despite any cross-wind.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
>>
>> What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?
>
> I doubt people are doing *fully* held off landings i.e. with the glider
> actually stalling on. More likely it's "held off until the glider is in
> the same attitude it will have on the ground .. or a tiny bit more" and
> then allowed to settle in that attitude. As it slows, lift at that AoA
> becomes insufficient to support the glider, but there is never
> aerodynamic stall. Maximum AoA / CL is not reached. Once you touch the
> ground AoA can not be increased, so lift can't be, so you can't start
> flying again (absent a massive headwind gust) and the *objectives* of a
> "fully held off" landing are acheived.
>
> Even nose-draggers like the ASK21 have a tail wheel and are landed
> main-and-tail or slightly tail first.
>
> The only exception I know is the PW5. I've never seen anyone land a PW5
> tail first. We had an informal challenge to do it when we first got
> ours. No one managed it.

Good description. I've never flown a PW6, but I have flown a PW5 and
suppose its also near impossible to fully hold off. Of course fully held
off landings work a treat for ASK-13s and T-21s: both have a nose skid.

In my experience my Std Libelle is the hardest glider to hold off for a
nice two-point landing, primarily because the weak airbrakes mean that if
you start raising the nose even slightly early it will balloon, but its
always a nice end to a flight when both wheels touch the floor together.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jim Kellett]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:04:02 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? . .

I teach both (a requirement of the FAA Pilot Test Standard), but recommend and almost always use a slip (in the US, that'd be the oxymoronically labelled "side slip", not a "forward slip") in moderate crosswinds. If the xwind is too strong, I switch to as much of a slip as is comfortable to avoid wingtips dinging the runway, then crab.

These procedures are more important on paved runways than grass, because the side loads on the gear with even a slightly botched crabbed landing on pavement can cause significant damage.

As to "why", it's because the properly executed "side slip" permits a stabilized approach that continues right down into the flare (easier to teach as well), and reduces the risk of side loads on the landing gear.

Finally, when the issue of ground loops, grass vs. pavement, or off-airport landings is raised, then the answer changes to "it depends", and the pilot should be skilled in using whatever procedure fits the circumstances.

[Tango Eight]

This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).

It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.

see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> This thread is more interesting than I would have guessed. I thought
> standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a
> student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for
> managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).

I no longer remember if I was taught both. Learning in a (slab-sided) 2-33, I
was *certainly* taught slips as a means to increase sink, and I remember them
being useful/great-fun in early-model, top-only-spoilered, 1-26's. Upon
transitioning into flaps-only single-seaters, I found slipping approaches
unnecessary/not-realistically-worth-practicing due to (in the case of the
wimpily-ruddered) HP-14, full flaps resulting in something less than a 4/1
L/D, and, in the case of the (less-powerfully-flapped) Zuni, slips with full
flaps actually *reducing* the sink rate.

As for the actual touchdowns, I always sought to 2-point-on the HP-14 (easy to
do), while simultaneously (if possible) angling into any "significant
crosswind" by way of minimizing drift at touchdown; I can't recall ever
landing the HP on pavement in a crosswind. OTOH, in the Zuni (especially on
pavement) I routinely wheeled-on the ship with partial flaps in significant
crosswinds, just because it was easier to do gracefully than attempt an
easily-ballooned flare-to-a-2-point attempt. (The HP also wheeled on nicely,
but I thought it counterproductive - in a "useful most often" skills sense -
to routinely do so.)

Does it go without saying all flaps-only skills were self-taught (i.e.
reading, thinking, doing)? Definitely a good idea (and challenging fun if
approached with the right mindset) to continually attempt to increase the
variety/competency of skills in one's collection...

Bob W.

[Phil Plane]

Crab for grass, slip for paved.

I never understood why you would slip until I started using a paved runway. It is surprising how much crosswind you can handle without the low wing dragging, but on a narrow runway it might be necessary to land offset from centerline so the low wing is over the runway and the high wing is over the obstacles beside the runway.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).
>
> It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.
>
> see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.
>
> best,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

I teach both but find most end up preferring slip. I do insist on slip when teaching in the Cub. My airplane- my rules.
UH

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 11:00:40 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).
> >
> > It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.
> >
> > see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.
> >
> > best,
> > Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> I teach both but find most end up preferring slip. I do insist on slip when teaching in the Cub. My airplane- my rules.
> UH

If you're in danger of touching a wingtip in the cub then you should think about landing across the runway instead of along it!

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 3:00:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).
> >
> > It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.
> >
> > see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.
> >
> > best,
> > Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> I teach both but find most end up preferring slip. I do insist on slip when teaching in the Cub. My airplane- my rules.
> UH

In high wing tail dragger powered airplanes, I think we all slip. And if we can't manage with a slip, it's time to find another runway! Schiff's advocacy for crabbing was mostly for low wing tri geared things (up to / including 777, lol).

-Evan

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

True, I've been taught slips and crabs, both have their uses depending on aircraft, surface and wind. Good to know both.

Here's one for all you.....

Whats the definition of "excessive cross wind?"




"When you run out of rudder"

LOL.....

[[email protected]]

> Whats the definition of "excessive cross wind?"

In the Cessna I used to have, I suppose the time I almost touched the runway with the wingtip was a bit excessive.

OTOH in the HP-14 I used to have, I avoided days with any significant crosswind, due to the wings being long and low.

[Dan Marotta]

I used to slip the B-727 all the way to touchdown...

On 2/26/2017 1:48 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 3:00:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
>>> This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).
>>>
>>> It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.
>>>
>>> see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.
>>>
>>> best,
>>> Evan Ludeman / T8
>> I teach both but find most end up preferring slip. I do insist on slip when teaching in the Cub. My airplane- my rules.
>> UH
> In high wing tail dragger powered airplanes, I think we all slip. And if we can't manage with a slip, it's time to find another runway! Schiff's advocacy for crabbing was mostly for low wing tri geared things (up to / including 777, lol).
>
> -Evan

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

At 3;23 of this video is a great shot of a DG 1001 (?) in a slip. Great video too.

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 4:13:50 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I used to slip the B-727 all the way to touchdown...
>
> On 2/26/2017 1:48 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 3:00:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> >>> This thread is more interesting that I would have guessed. I thought standard practice was to teach both. That's what we did when I was a student pilot. Crabbing was emphasized as the better technique for managing larger cross winds (and we students figured it out, just fine).
> >>>
> >>> It's obvious to any pilot proficient with both slips and crabbing approaches that the cross wind limits of the crabbing approach are vastly higher than what you can manage with slipping alone. About 50%, I'd reckon.
> >>>
> >>> see also: Peter Schiff, The Proficient Pilot.
> >>>
> >>> best,
> >>> Evan Ludeman / T8
> >> I teach both but find most end up preferring slip. I do insist on slip when teaching in the Cub. My airplane- my rules.
> >> UH
> > In high wing tail dragger powered airplanes, I think we all slip. And if we can't manage with a slip, it's time to find another runway! Schiff's advocacy for crabbing was mostly for low wing tri geared things (up to / including 777, lol).
> >
> > -Evan
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 16:37:51 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> At 3;23 of this video is a great shot of a DG 1001 (?) in a slip. Great
> video too.
>
URL please.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

At 3;23 of this video is a great shot of a DG 1001 (?) in a slip. Â*Great video too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhXRBsIXrg


On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 5:13:46 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 16:37:51 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
> > At 3;23 of this video is a great shot of a DG 1001 (?) in a slip. Great
> > video too.
> >
> URL please.
>
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |



On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 5:13:46 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 16:37:51 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
> > At 3;23 of this video is a great shot of a DG 1001 (?) in a slip. Great
> > video too.
> >
> URL please.
>
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[POPS]

Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the lack of any coordination in these situations?

After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land, on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and altitude winding down.

Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts, turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip, windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70 degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm, pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap, no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with my big rudder.
I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this landing.
Sorry for the long post.





;939235']On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 10:43:08 AM UTC+3, POPS wrote:
> Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
> a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
> the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
> lack of any coordination in these situations?
>
> After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
> final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
> on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
> lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
> moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
> altitude winding down.
>
> Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
> turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
> windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
> drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
> degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
> pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
> no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
> level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
> now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
> went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
> tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
> into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
> left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
> on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
> my big rudder.
> I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
> landing.
> Sorry for the long post.
>
>
>
>
>
> 'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
> > ;939235']On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > -
> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
> > crab.
> > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
> > might
> > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.-
> >
> > Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
> > different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
> > approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
> > point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
> >
> > the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
> >
> > sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
> > the
> > two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds
> > off
> > and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
> > also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
> >
> > well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
> >
> > despite any cross-wind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org |
>
>
>
>
> --
> POPS

Why would your yaw string be 30 - 40 degrees to one side in a crab? It should be dead straight.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 11:43:08 PM UTC-8, POPS wrote:
> Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
> a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
> the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
> lack of any coordination in these situations?
>
> After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
> final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
> on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
> lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
> moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
> altitude winding down.
>
> Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
> turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
> windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
> drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
> degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
> pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
> no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
> level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
> now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
> went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
> tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
> into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
> left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
> on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
> my big rudder.
> I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
> landing.
> Sorry for the long post.
>
>
>
>
>
> 'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
> > ;939235']On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > -
> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
> > taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
> > transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
> > crab.
> > Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
> > might
> > be a useful discussion for newer pilots.-
> >
> > Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
> > different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
> > approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
> > point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
> >
> > the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
> >
> > sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
> > the
> > two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds
> > off
> > and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
> > also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
> >
> > well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
> >
> > despite any cross-wind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org |
>
>
>
>
> --
> POPS

if your yaw string was out 30-40 degrees, you were either turning uncoordinated with rudder only, or if you were not turning, you had some opposite aileron in, which would mean you were still slipping.

other than that, sounds about right. perhaps after you touched down, using your big rudder you could have maintained your heading and held your upwind wing down a bit to prevent the ground loop?

[Dan Marotta]

Sounds like you did a good job!

Don't be so concerned about uncoordinated flight so long as you keep
your airspeed up sufficiently that any gust won't cause a stall and,
should it happen, always be prepared to dump the nose (reduce angle of
attack significantly). And there's no reason not to land perpendicular
to the furrows in a plowed field. Sure, it'll be rough, but plowed dirt
is soft and you'll slow quickly. You'll also have a very low ground
speed given the wind.

Dan

On 2/26/2017 11:47 PM, POPS wrote:
> Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
> a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
> the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
> lack of any coordination in these situations?
>
> After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
> final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
> on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
> lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
> moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
> altitude winding down.
>
> Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
> turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
> windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
> drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
> degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
> pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
> no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
> level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
> now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
> went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
> tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
> into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
> left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
> on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
> my big rudder.
> I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
> landing.
> Sorry for the long post.
>
>
>
>
>
> 'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
>> ;939235']On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> -
>> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
>> taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
>> transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
>> crab.
>> Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
>> might
>> be a useful discussion for newer pilots.-
>>
>> Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
>> different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
>> approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
>> point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
>>
>> the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
>>
>> sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
>> the
>> two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds
>> off
>> and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
>> also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
>>
>> well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
>>
>> despite any cross-wind.
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> org |
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 2:43:08 AM UTC-5, POPS wrote:
> Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
> a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
> the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
> lack of any coordination in these situations?
>
> After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
> final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
> on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
> lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
> moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
> altitude winding down.
>
> Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
> turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
> windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
> drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
> degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
> pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
> no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
> level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
> now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
> went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
> tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
> into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
> left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
> on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
> my big rudder.
> I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
> landing.
> Sorry for the long post.

> --
> POPS

"Released rudder and flared" doesn't make sense.

The crab maneuver should be coordinated as previously mentioned. Rudder neutral, string centered.

The flare and landing is what isn't coordinated. Downwind rudder. Aileron into the wind as required to keep that upwind wing as low as you can.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Michael Opitz]

And there's no reason not to land perpendicular
>to the furrows in a plowed field. Sure, it'll be rough, but plowed
dirt
>is soft and you'll slow quickly. You'll also have a very low ground
>speed given the wind.
>
>Dan

That is unless you happen to be flying out of Rieti in Italy.. They
use D-8 bulldozers to pull the plows through hardened clay, leaving
plowed up solid chunks about 1 foot across. The plowed fields
there were an absolute nightmare during the 1985 WGC. Loads of
off-field landing damages..

You have to know the nature of the countryside which you are flying
over.. If it's a fresh-plowed field in an area where there is some
moisture in the ground, then maybe it might work. If the area is
more arid, or if it isn't fresh plowed and has been left to sit and
harden, you will likely rip the gear off your glider - at the least....

Better to look at the edges of the field if it's large enough. There
may be furrows oriented into the wind there where the tractors
have had to change direction. Good examples are the crop circles
in the USA. They uses a circular irrigation rig, but the corners of
those fields are generally plowed straight, and are long enough for
a glider to land on.
You can also select the corner which provides the best landing
direction related to the wind...

It's always best to not be forced into only one land-out option where
you don't have a choice with crosswinds, etc. You have to make
those decisions earlier in the courses you select and the altitude
minimums which you decide that you can live with....

RO

[POPS]

You're right, 'released rudder' doesn't make sense, I meant released the extreme crab angle returning to straight ahead alignment just before flairing. The yaw string never was straight during my 300 yard crabbing final approach. It was extremely windy with the wind 90 degrees across final approach. I was flying straight, not turning, wings level. I did get into full right rudder after touch down too, after being prompted 2 quick times by some mystery quest over the radio!

Dan M said not to worry about coordination in this configuration as long as you keep plenty of air speed, which was my though during this 60 second thrill ride as well.

Thanks for the input. Any additional comments concerning lack of coordination while on final due to big cross wind landing are welcomed.




On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 2:43:08 AM UTC-5, POPS wrote:
Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
lack of any coordination in these situations?

After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
altitude winding down.

Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
my big rudder.
I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
landing.
Sorry for the long post.

--
POPS

"Released rudder and flared" doesn't make sense.

The crab maneuver should be coordinated as previously mentioned. Rudder neutral, string centered.

The flare and landing is what isn't coordinated. Downwind rudder. Aileron into the wind as required to keep that upwind wing as low as you can.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dan Marotta]

Well, since you asked... Consider landing diagonally or even
perpendicular (in the extreme) to the runway. Let field and weather
conditions help with the decision. Just don't be hobbled by what you
learned in training since that was conducted during favorable weather.
If you're going to fly in weather that wouldn't be allowed for a solo
student, be prepared to do whatever it takes to land safely.

And have fun!

Dan

On 2/27/2017 9:11 PM, POPS wrote:
> You're right, 'released rudder' doesn't make sense, I meant released the
> extreme crab angle returning to straight ahead alignment just before
> flairing. The yaw string never was straight during my 300 yard crabbing
> final approach. It was extremely windy with the wind 90 degrees across
> final approach. I was flying straight, not turning, wings level. I did
> get into full right rudder after touch down too, after being prompted 2
> quick times by some mystery quest over the radio!
>
> Dan M said not to worry about coordination in this configuration as long
> as you keep plenty of air speed, which was my though during this 60
> second thrill ride as well.
>
> Thanks for the input. Any additional comments concerning lack of
> coordination while on final due to big cross wind landing are welcomed.
>
>
>
>
> Tango Eight;939442 Wrote:
>> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 2:43:08 AM UTC-5, POPS wrote:-
>> Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question,
>> with
>> a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
>> the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
>> lack of any coordination in these situations?
>>
>> After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
>> final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
>> on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28.
>> I
>> lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
>> moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere
>> and
>> altitude winding down.
>>
>> Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
>>
>> turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
>> windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
>> drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly
>> 70
>> degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
>> pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge
>> crap,
>> no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
>> level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
>> now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so.
>> I
>> went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
>> tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
>> into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under
>> my
>> left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
>> on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight
>> with
>> my big rudder.
>> I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
>> landing.
>> Sorry for the long post.-
>> -
>> --
>> POPS-
>>
>> "Released rudder and flared" doesn't make sense.
>>
>> The crab maneuver should be coordinated as previously mentioned. Rudder
>> neutral, string centered.
>>
>> The flare and landing is what isn't coordinated. Downwind rudder.
>> Aileron into the wind as required to keep that upwind wing as low as you
>> can.
>>
>> best,
>> Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

After a really tough pattern and landing on a very windy day, the pilot stated, "this is a really short field!", the co-pilot then stated, "yep, it is, but it's 5000' wide!"

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:04:02 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why?

Like Mr. Kellett (yeeaay buddy), I teach both, and teach selection of technique based on machine and landing surface. What "works" in the component for one ship might not be best for another. I teach - the pilot must choose what tool they use, and you better be able to describe and use either.

What I don't see discussed here, and would be valuable for newer pilots and many more-senior CFIs would be the ability to teach the students about using their best ballbearing at C-4 vertebrae, and be able to LOOK ( peek intermittently) at their wingtips to see if they are level, or low to the wind, or HOW close to earth the tip is.

You can do this any time by "windjamming", flying ailerons of the glider on the ground in a good breeze. Making them place the wingtip at your palm, while you do deep knee bends at the wingtip or show them loss of aileron control when that tip makes 1 degree too-high in the cross component. When they understand the concept of "what would you do walking around today wearing a sombrero and wanting to keep the hat on your head" you are ready to have them use a wind-tip-low technique on takeoff and landings.

Really. You or they can keep the glider on centerline and look at a tip. It's just a peek. Getting the pilot to de-link the hands and the chin is a valuable skill. Looking around more is also a valuable practice. When they do it a bit, their confidence grows.

And worse case? I have slalomed the tips over alternating obstacles on outlanding. But that wasn't a huge crosswind event, thankfully. You could simulate something like that on a calm day with tethered helium balloons....
for those who need an event to increase skills. Just think about runway lights and repair bills for a fair motivation.

Best wishes,

Cindy B

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 10:19:07 PM UTC+3, CindyB wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:04:02 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why?
>
> Like Mr. Kellett (yeeaay buddy), I teach both, and teach selection of technique based on machine and landing surface. What "works" in the component for one ship might not be best for another. I teach - the pilot must choose what tool they use, and you better be able to describe and use either.
>
> What I don't see discussed here, and would be valuable for newer pilots and many more-senior CFIs would be the ability to teach the students about using their best ballbearing at C-4 vertebrae, and be able to LOOK ( peek intermittently) at their wingtips to see if they are level, or low to the wind, or HOW close to earth the tip is.
>
> You can do this any time by "windjamming", flying ailerons of the glider on the ground in a good breeze. Making them place the wingtip at your palm, while you do deep knee bends at the wingtip or show them loss of aileron control when that tip makes 1 degree too-high in the cross component. When they understand the concept of "what would you do walking around today wearing a sombrero and wanting to keep the hat on your head" you are ready to have them use a wind-tip-low technique on takeoff and landings.
>
> Really. You or they can keep the glider on centerline and look at a tip. It's just a peek. Getting the pilot to de-link the hands and the chin is a valuable skill. Looking around more is also a valuable practice. When they do it a bit, their confidence grows.
>
> And worse case? I have slalomed the tips over alternating obstacles on outlanding. But that wasn't a huge crosswind event, thankfully. You could simulate something like that on a calm day with tethered helium balloons.....
> for those who need an event to increase skills. Just think about runway lights and repair bills for a fair motivation.

I remember when I started, instructors telling me my wings weren't level, and I couldn't tell if they were or not in flight without looking at both tips. (I recall Lucy Wills commenting on this too in the video of her lessons)

After a while you don't need to look at the wingtips any more.

I agree that keeping the wings level in a wind on the ground, and gently finding the limits, is an excellent exercise. And again, after you've done that for a while you don't *need* to actually look.

Incidentally, in instructing, I don't think I've ever told a student that their wings aren't level. I ask them if they can tell that they're slowly turning to the left (or right).

[[email protected]]

Thanks Cindy B for the instructing ideas there.

Way back getting instruction in a Cessna I once got scolded by an instructor for looking out to the side during the flare in order to better gauge my height above the runway. The instructor thought that moving my head would have my hands follow. Maybe that is the case for some students, but it certainly wasn't in my case. After all, I've been riding bicycles for years, keeping the handlebar steady while looking all around for traffic.

Regarding knowing when the wings are level, it is hard for a student to tell by looking at one wing tip due to dihedral. It looks like the wing is sloped up, because it is. Thus the need to look at the other wingtip and compare. It gets easier when you (1) get used to the specific ship, (2) learn to notice the relationship of the horizon in front of you and the seat below you, and (3) learn to notice even a slow drift in heading.