Student-Instructor question (USA)

[Nolaminar]

Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA

[Vaughn]

"Nolaminar" > wrote in message
...
> Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
> Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
> GA
There is no FAA requirement that I know of, If there were, how would
students manage cross-country practice? A club, commercial operation, or
insurance company may have more stringent requirements and an instructor may
put any limitation in a student's logbook (61.89 (a) (8). Below is the
operative section of part 61 concerning solo student flight:

61.87
L) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A
student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student
pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot
certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training
within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

(m) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight at
night. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight at night
unless that student pilot has received:

(1) Flight training at night on night flying procedures that includes
takeoffs, approaches, landings, and go-arounds at night at the airport where
the solo flight will be conducted;

(2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the
solo flight will be conducted; and

(3) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown for night solo flight by an authorized instructor who
gave the training within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight.

(n) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. (1) No
instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless
that instructor has --

(i) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a
similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

(ii) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and
procedures prescribed in this section;

(iii) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of
aircraft to be flown;

(iv) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an
instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and
model aircraft to be flown; and

(v) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight
privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook
every 90 days thereafter.

(2) The flight training required by this section must be given by an
instructor authorized to provide flight training who is appropriately rated
and current.

Also see 61.89, .93 and .95

[Judy Ruprecht]

At 02:18 22 November 2003, Vaughn wrote:
(in response to a question about whether the CFI must
be on the ground while his/her student is flying solo)
>There is no FAA requirement that I know of... (but
>a CFI >can) put any limitation in a student's logbook
>(61.89 (a) (8).

Vaughn is correct - there is not an FAR *requiring*
the endorsing CFI to be present on the ground, in-state
or anywhere in particular when his/her student is flying
solo.

Consistent with 61.89(a)(8) and 61.195(d)(1)(ii), however,
a CFI can elect to supplement any solo endorsement
with a limitation requiring the student to review weather
& flight planning with an instructor before solo flight.
At the CFI's discretion, such a limitation could be
worded to apply to the entire 90 days solo privileges
are granted, or to some magic number of flights, or
when specified winds/weather are forecast or observed.


If any such limitation is intended to apply indefinitely,
it should be included in each 90-day endorsement.

Judy

[BTIZ]

we've had some instructors try to "supervise" student solos.. while flying
with another student.. while towing... does not always work out..

"new" solo student is one thing.. experienced solo.. and about ready to take
his check ride is another.. not readily available if the weather changes..
or to "monitor the approach and landing", or watching if they are getting to
low on the ridge before heading back to the traffic pattern. There has been
a few times that the "pattern was crowded", but the student needed to be
told to "turn base now", because he appeared to be extending to far.. or was
to low to fly the "normal" ground track.

Hard to do that from the air.

Also, our insurance states that there will be an instructor "on the field",
with solo students, but does that mean, feet on ground?

As far as x-c practice.. Students are limited to the valley, not crossing
the ridge line to the other side. Students can "practice" cross country
going down the valley to the next town and return, it's 14nm one way, but
there is a dry lake under them for 1/2 that distance. Or they can "cross the
valley", about 7nm to the far ridge and soar there, always being able to
return to the airport or the lake bed.

Never leave the safety of the lake bed below a set altitude, which will
provide final glide with ample safety margin for return. And the prevailing
wind is normally from the lake bed area to the airport.

BT


"Nolaminar" > wrote in message
...
> Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
> Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
> GA

[Ray Lovinggood]

Bob,

We've asked the same question and our answer came through
Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.

Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
to help if something goes awry.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

>'Nolaminar' wrote in message
...
>> Does instructor have to on the ground when a student
>>is flying?
>> Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
>> GA
>
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

Ray, we got the same answer. The logic behind this
can be explained that the instructor could evaluate
the surface wind at the launch site, view the ground
and pattern traffic and any other pitfalls evident
at the moment. These things could not be assessed
from the air. Specious? Maybe. Maybe some day the
instructors will be hired by the insurance companies.

At 11:54 22 November 2003, Ray Lovinggood wrote:
>Bob,
>
>We've asked the same question and our answer came through
>Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
>'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
>be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
>the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.
>
>Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
>instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
>towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
>to help if something goes awry.
>
>Ray Lovinggood
>Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>>'Nolaminar' wrote in message
...
>>> Does instructor have to on the ground when a student
>>>is flying?
>>> Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
>>> GA
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Mark James Boyd]

>We've asked the same question and our answer came through
>Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
>'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
>be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
>the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.
>

At our club, the gliders have no radios, so the CFI
is really there for the launch and maybe tow (he can
still talk to the tow pilot on the radio).
This seems consistent with Costello and what our
insurance requires. Having the CFI ensure a preflight is
done, trim is set right for T/O, spoilers are
locked for T/O, tow rope isn't tangled, etc. can be done
on the ground right before tow.

Requiring a CFI for landing makes little sense to me
(other than for comic relief).

[BTIZ]

or maybe the landing debrief..

BT

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:3fbfd650$1@darkstar...
> >We've asked the same question and our answer came through
> >Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
> >'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
> >be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
> >the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.
> >
>
> At our club, the gliders have no radios, so the CFI
> is really there for the launch and maybe tow (he can
> still talk to the tow pilot on the radio).
> This seems consistent with Costello and what our
> insurance requires. Having the CFI ensure a preflight is
> done, trim is set right for T/O, spoilers are
> locked for T/O, tow rope isn't tangled, etc. can be done
> on the ground right before tow.
>
> Requiring a CFI for landing makes little sense to me
> (other than for comic relief).
>

[Michael]

Ray Lovinggood > wrote
> Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
> instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
> towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
> to help if something goes awry.

Exactly.

It's a dumb requirement, and it shows a total lack of understanding of
(or disregard for) the purpose of solo flight. Why does the private
ticket require solo time? What can the student possibly practice solo
that he can't practice with me in the back?

The purpose of solo flight is to impress upon the student the
life-and-death nature of his decisions. It is a chance for him to
make his own mistakes, and deal with them. It is an essential process
not in the development of skill, which can be developed just as well
(actually better) in dual instruction, but of judgment.

When you tell a student that he can't fly unless there is an
instructor on the field, you are sending a clear and unmistakable
message. You're telling the student that his decision to launch is
subject to review and may be overruled by that instructor. You are
therefore encouraging him to launch even if he's not sure it's a good
idea - because he knows (correctly or otherwise) that if it's a bad
idea, the instructor will overrule him. You can tell him otherwise
until you're blue in the face, but actions speak louder than words.

Michael

[Ivan Kahn]

To my knowledge, there is no regulation to support the requirement for an
instructor to be present. I think this is just a requirement of the
insurance underwriter - which if in writing is binding.

Ivan

[BTIZ]

that is the rule.. for the insurance company..

and I don't know of any "smart" instructor that would allow any student to
fly solo on any given day without the instructor knowing it and reviewing
that the student is prepared, has a plan, and has reviewed the weather and
forecast changes for the next few hours.

the student is flying on the instructors ticket.. (power or glider)

JMVHO
BT

"Ivan Kahn" > wrote in message
news:M8vwb.296102$Fm2.312218@attbi_s04...
> To my knowledge, there is no regulation to support the requirement for an
> instructor to be present. I think this is just a requirement of the
> insurance underwriter - which if in writing is binding.
>
> Ivan
>
>

[Bruce Hoult]

In article <eCzwb.6342$ML6.2557@fed1read01>,
"BTIZ" > wrote:

> that is the rule.. for the insurance company..
>
> and I don't know of any "smart" instructor that would allow any student to
> fly solo on any given day without the instructor knowing it and reviewing
> that the student is prepared, has a plan, and has reviewed the weather and
> forecast changes for the next few hours.
>
> the student is flying on the instructors ticket.. (power or glider)

Here in New Zealand, being able to fly without an instructor on the
field is a relatively advanced rating. Traditionally, quite a large
number of things have been independently signed off in your logbook --
ratings for particular aircraft, front seat passenger rating, back seat
passenger rating, cross country rating, aerobatics rating, independent
operations rating, etc.

A few years ago the powers here rolled a number of these into a single
"Qualified glider pilot" endorsement but I notice that my logbook is now
endorsed:

Qualified Glider Pilot approved for independent operations.
Approved for independent cross-country operations (list of types).

I don't know for sure, but this leads me to believe that it might be
possible to have the "Qualified Glider Pilot", but still fly only when
an instructor is present on the field.

In any case, "present" means something like: was there in the morning,
discussed your plans (which might simply be "local soaring"), talked
about anything unusual about the day's weather (and for newbies, check
if they've flown in similar weather, and perhaps give a quick check
flight), and the weather hasn't changed too much since then.

It's perfectly OK for the instructor to be off-field at lunch, or in
another glider, or in the tow plane or the workshop (i.e. they might not
be "on duty" as an instructor, but simply qualified as an instructor).

-- Bruce

[Duane Eisenbeiss]

"Ivan Kahn" > wrote in message
news:M8vwb.296102$Fm2.312218@attbi_s04...
> To my knowledge, there is no regulation to support the requirement for an
> instructor to be present. I think this is just a requirement of the
> insurance underwriter - which if in writing is binding.
>
> Ivan
>

It may not even be a requirement of the insurance underwriter. It may just
be a requirement of Costello (SSA insurance). When Costello sells
insurance through the SSA plan there is always a requirement for a "cockpit
check-out" by a CFI. I have insurance underwritten by AIG, the same
insurance underwriter as for the SSA plan, and there is no such requirement.
Perhaps Costello makes a few extra requirements of his own.

Duane

[Michael]

"BTIZ" > wrote
> and I don't know of any "smart" instructor that would allow any student to
> fly solo on any given day without the instructor knowing it and reviewing
> that the student is prepared, has a plan, and has reviewed the weather and
> forecast changes for the next few hours.

Then both I and the instructor who soloed me must not be "smart."
When I was soloed, it was three trips around the patch while the
instructor watched (and NOT with a radio) and then you're on your own.
When I solo a student, it's the same way. If I didn't trust the
student's judgment in making the go/no-go decision, I wouldn't have
soloed him. If I knew that due to lack of experience with certain
conditions his judgment in some specific area was still not
sufficiently developed, I would enter an appropriate restriction in
his logbook.

"Needs prior permission for each individual flight" is not an
appropriate restriction. The only justification for such a
restriction is that the student's judgment is not sufficiently
developed to make a go/no-go decision at all. That means he's not
ready to solo, regardless of how well he can wiggle the stick.

Michael

[Shirley]

"BTIZ" wrote:
>>and I don't know of any "smart" instructor
>>that would allow any student to fly solo on
>>any given day without the instructor knowing
>>it and reviewing that the student is prepared,
>>has a plan, and has reviewed the weather
>>and forecast changes for the next few hours.

wrote:
>Then both I and the instructor who soloed me
>must not be "smart." When I was soloed, it was
>three trips around the patch while the instructor
>watched (and NOT with a radio) and then you're
>on your own.

Same here, Michael. CFIG was on the ground and watched my first two solos (also
no radios where I fly), and then I was encouraged to solo as often as I could.
I usually scheduled flights when he was there, in case I had questions (still
prefer it that way), but there is always at least one CFIG at the site. As for
discussing *every* flight with regard to a plan, weather, etc., that is done
many times prior to solo, so decision-making is already addressed and observed.
Even post license, everyone shares info about weather, locations of known or
potential lift, or anything else that is useful prior to flying. Everyone
watches out for others, and obviously no one there would tow anyone--solo
student or seasoned pilot--up in weather they shouldn't be in.

--Shirley

[Tony Verhulst]

> Also, our insurance states that there will be an instructor "on the field",
> with solo students, but does that mean, feet on ground?

My club http://www.soargbsc.org is insured by Costello and has the same
statement. We asked for a clarification and were informed that the
instructor has to be on the field to approve the flight. The instructor
is then free to perform other tasks - including flying his own glider
for fun (what a concept :-).

Tony V

[Shirley]

Tony Verhulst tony.verhulst wrote:

>My club http://www.soargbsc.org is insured by
>Costello and has the same statement. We asked
>for a clarification and were informed that the
>instructor has to be on the field to approve the
>flight. The instructor is then free to perform
>other tasks - including flying his own glider for
>fun (what a concept :-).

Does the insurance say whether the instructor approving the flight has to be
the same instructor who signed the student off to solo?

[JJ Sinclair]

Tony wrote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.>The instructor
>is then free to perform other tasks - including flying his own glider
>for fun (what a concept :-).

I watched a first time solo, student deploy the spoilers and then disappear
below the cliff on the approach end to 19 at Truckee. His instructor was in the
can, taking a dump. All that was necessary to prevent this accident was for the
instructor to be watching with a hand held radio. A simple,"Close your
spoilers" would have been all it took. I think any instructor has a moral
responsibility to observe his students, especially during their first 3 solo's.
JJ Sinclair

[Tony Verhulst]

> Does the insurance say whether the instructor approving the flight has to be
> the same instructor who signed the student off to solo?

They said that it doesn't matter.

Tony V.