REFINISHING

[Ventus B]

All,
I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
purchase price!
Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[Harold Ennulat]

I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of the states right now are
by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are usually booked for the
year by the end of the soaring season so you might not be able to get it
done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done and it looks perfect!!

Harold "HE"

"Ventus B" > wrote in message
om...
> All,
> I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> purchase price!
> Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[goneill]

In New Zealand the workshop at our field does refinish work at
$660-$700US per metre of wingspan (for the whole glider)and to ship
a container here and back costs approx $6500-$7000US so it
costs more for one glider but if you join together and send multiple
gliders it gets cheaper fast.They have been in business for 20 yrs and
are the NZ SH agent
If you want more info contact me
gary

"Ventus B" > wrote in message
om...
> All,
> I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> purchase price!
> Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[Mal]

There is also a place in Brisbane Australia

Come out and have a fly on Sunday we had 11 knot thermals streets stuff
thermaling 1.02 in the air 54 mins 100K

In the last 7 days I have 21 hours

[Nils Hoeimyr]

In Poland you can get a good refinish at a reasonable price.
Check out http://www.avionic.pl for details. (They did an excellent
job with our 55). But you have the problem of shipping the glider
across the Atlantic, which is probably of the order of 1-2k$ one way.

Nils


Ventus B wrote:
> All,
> I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> purchase price!
> Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[Richard Pfiffner]

I am a refinishing my ventus B wings. I have 150 hours into the project at
this time. I have removed the gel coat, Surfaced with Epoxy and Glass
Beads, surfaced with vinyl ester primer, and am ready to apply acrylic
urethane. I still have to surface the control surfaces and flaps and finish
paint them. I estimate the total time will be approximatley 200 to 250
hours.

Richard

"Ventus B" > wrote in message
om...
> All,
> I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> purchase price!
> Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[303pilot]

Refinishing may or may not include re-profiling. Be sure to ask what is
included in the fees.
No one's mentioned George Applebay, Applebay Aviation, in Moriarty, NM. He
did the wings and tail on my 303 and they're beautiful. I don't know what
he charged exactly as the work was done a couple years before my partner and
I bought the ship.

Brent

"Ventus B" > wrote in message
om...
> All,
> I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> purchase price!
> Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.

[Bob Mowry]

Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment of gliders to
Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping) is way better
than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked the guys at
Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std Cirrus: $25K,
which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price :)

You should contact him if you are interested (and can be without your
glider for that period of time).

-bob

[Aspley Nursery]

I 'm from Queensland in Australia and just had the fuse down on our Nimbus 2
C locally.

There are a few here in Australia with two at least locals who do great
work.

I know one did George Lees Nimbus 4 dm which he was very pleased with.

Call if you want details and again exchange rates make a difference.

Robert Percy


"Bob Mowry" > wrote in message
m...
> Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment of gliders to
> Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping) is way better
> than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked the guys at
> Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std Cirrus: $25K,
> which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price :)
>
> You should contact him if you are interested (and can be without your
> glider for that period of time).
>
> -bob

[John]

WoW!

First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none. These little
negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here in Atlanta. But of
course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best in the world, right? :)

Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out his highly customized
ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta in February! You
can see if you like the results.

Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for that matter, smoothed or
profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to 1200 and polished the
entire thing can tell you of the work involved. Doing it 'right' is the
big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart in a couple of
years. Waste of time!

Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
Time + Knowledge = $$$$$


John Bojack "J4"
LS-6c/18w







"Harold Ennulat" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of the states right now are
> by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are usually booked for the
> year by the end of the soaring season so you might not be able to get it
> done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done and it looks perfect!!
>
> Harold "HE"
>
> "Ventus B" > wrote in message
> om...
> > All,
> > I have been looking into having my glider refinished. Casual
> > conversations with other pilots revealed that most think a "normal"
> > refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking with Gaines in
> > Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines charges $60 per
> > hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours if they are done
> > correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's more than my
> > purchase price!
> > Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished (properly) in
> > the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it overseas may still be
> > a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates now.
>
>

[Miguel Lavalle]

I called Tom Knauff yesterday and this is the summary
of our conversation:

1) He got a lot of responses to his email but nobody
committed firmly to
send his / her glider to Slovakia. Firm commitment
means in his mind to have
the money ready and be willing to take the glider to
Tom's gliderport
2) He is doing this because he wants to refinish one
of his own gliders. He
needs that glider back by early spring though. Now
it is to late for him to
send it and get it back on time, so he is going to
wait until next fall
3) The cost to refinish a standard class glider is
$7000 to $8000
4) The ideal is to ship three gliders per container.
This drives the
shipping cost down to ~$1500 per glider. More gliders
per container would
require difficult packing
5) In this Slovakia shop they can refinish either with
gelcoat or
polyurethane. He got the reference from Shremp Hirth
and apparently they
make a great job

If someone is ready to commit send me an email and
we can go back to Tom. He
sounded like he would help

Best regards

Miguel


At 21:06 25 November 2003, Bob Mowry wrote:
>Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment
>of gliders to
>Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping)
>is way better
>than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked
>the guys at
>Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std
>Cirrus: $25K,
>which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price
>:)
>
>You should contact him if you are interested (and can
>be without your
>glider for that period of time).
>
>-bob
>

[tango4]

6 gliders will go into a 40' container.

Ian

"Miguel Lavalle" > wrote in message
...
> I called Tom Knauff yesterday and this is the summary
> of our conversation:
>
> 1) He got a lot of responses to his email but nobody
> committed firmly to
> send his / her glider to Slovakia. Firm commitment
> means in his mind to have
> the money ready and be willing to take the glider to
> Tom's gliderport
> 2) He is doing this because he wants to refinish one
> of his own gliders. He
> needs that glider back by early spring though. Now
> it is to late for him to
> send it and get it back on time, so he is going to
> wait until next fall
> 3) The cost to refinish a standard class glider is
> $7000 to $8000
> 4) The ideal is to ship three gliders per container.
> This drives the
> shipping cost down to ~$1500 per glider. More gliders
> per container would
> require difficult packing
> 5) In this Slovakia shop they can refinish either with
> gelcoat or
> polyurethane. He got the reference from Shremp Hirth
> and apparently they
> make a great job
>
> If someone is ready to commit send me an email and
> we can go back to Tom. He
> sounded like he would help
>
> Best regards
>
> Miguel
>
>
> At 21:06 25 November 2003, Bob Mowry wrote:
> >Tom Knauff sent out email about doing a bulk shipment
> >of gliders to
> >Europe for refinishing. The cost (including shipping)
> >is way better
> >than what you'll ever see here in the US. I asked
> >the guys at
> >Gehrlein's how much they'd charge to refinish my Std
> >Cirrus: $25K,
> >which is just ever so slighty above the purchase price
> >:)
> >
> >You should contact him if you are interested (and can
> >be without your
> >glider for that period of time).
> >
> >-bob
> >
>
>
>

[Nolaminar]

I have seen the work that is done by this company and it is very good.
The price is right and the detail work is fine.
What else do you need to know?
GA

[Paul Gaines]

Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!
:)

Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
>WoW!
>
>First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
> These little
>negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
>in Atlanta. But of
>course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
>in the world, right? :)
>
>Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
>his highly customized
>ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
>in February! You
>can see if you like the results.
>
>Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
>that matter, smoothed or
>profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
>1200 and polished the
>entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
> Doing it 'right' is the
>big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
>in a couple of
>years. Waste of time!
>
>Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
>Time + Knowledge = $$$$$
>
>
>John Bojack 'J4'
>LS-6c/18w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
link.net...
>> I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
>>the states right now are
>> by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
>>usually booked for the
>> year by the end of the soaring season so you might
>>not be able to get it
>> done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
>>and it looks perfect!!
>>
>> Harold 'HE'
>>
>> 'Ventus B' wrote in message
>> om...
>> > All,
>> > I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
>>> Casual
>> > conversations with other pilots revealed that most
>>>think a 'normal'
>> > refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
>>>with Gaines in
>> > Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
>>>charges $60 per
>> > hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
>>>if they are done
>> > correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
>>>more than my
>> > purchase price!
>> > Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
>>>(properly) in
>> > the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
>>>overseas may still be
>> > a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
>>>now.
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Richard Pfiffner]

Paul,

What are you using for fillers.

Richard

"Paul Gaines" > wrote in message
...
> Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
> of things.
>
> John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
> Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
> again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
> refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
> skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
> old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
> critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
> materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
> (this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
> fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
> above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
> lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
> charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
> of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
> is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
> court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
> By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
> ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
> gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
> during the process to see what your baby looks like
> naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
> first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
> come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
> probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
> we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
> and I said I would not do one for that price again.
> 20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
> huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
> eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
> I have recomended this to several customers, and
> you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
> the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
> polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
> of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
> to blend duiring repairs.
>
> I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
> 20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
> Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
> sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
> is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!
> :)
>
> Paul
>
>
> At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
> >WoW!
> >
> >First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
> > These little
> >negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
> >in Atlanta. But of
> >course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
> >in the world, right? :)
> >
> >Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
> >his highly customized
> >ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
> >in February! You
> >can see if you like the results.
> >
> >Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
> >that matter, smoothed or
> >profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
> >1200 and polished the
> >entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
> > Doing it 'right' is the
> >big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
> >in a couple of
> >years. Waste of time!
> >
> >Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
> >Time + Knowledge = $$$$$
> >
> >
> >John Bojack 'J4'
> >LS-6c/18w
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
> link.net...
> >> I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
> >>the states right now are
> >> by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
> >>usually booked for the
> >> year by the end of the soaring season so you might
> >>not be able to get it
> >> done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
> >>and it looks perfect!!
> >>
> >> Harold 'HE'
> >>
> >> 'Ventus B' wrote in message
> >> om...
> >> > All,
> >> > I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
> >>> Casual
> >> > conversations with other pilots revealed that most
> >>>think a 'normal'
> >> > refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
> >>>with Gaines in
> >> > Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
> >>>charges $60 per
> >> > hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
> >>>if they are done
> >> > correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
> >>>more than my
> >> > purchase price!
> >> > Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
> >>>(properly) in
> >> > the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
> >>>overseas may still be
> >> > a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
> >>>now.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Paul Gaines]

Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
of things.

John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
(this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
during the process to see what your baby looks like
naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
and I said I would not do one for that price again.
20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
I have recomended this to several customers, and
you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
to blend duiring repairs.

I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!
:)

Paul


At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
>WoW!
>
>First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
> These little
>negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
>in Atlanta. But of
>course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
>in the world, right? :)
>
>Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
>his highly customized
>ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
>in February! You
>can see if you like the results.
>
>Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
>that matter, smoothed or
>profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
>1200 and polished the
>entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
> Doing it 'right' is the
>big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell apart
>in a couple of
>years. Waste of time!
>
>Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
>Time + Knowledge = $$$$$
>
>
>John Bojack 'J4'
>LS-6c/18w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
link.net...
>> I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
>>the states right now are
>> by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
>>usually booked for the
>> year by the end of the soaring season so you might
>>not be able to get it
>> done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
>>and it looks perfect!!
>>
>> Harold 'HE'
>>
>> 'Ventus B' wrote in message
>> om...
>> > All,
>> > I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
>>> Casual
>> > conversations with other pilots revealed that most
>>>think a 'normal'
>> > refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
>>>with Gaines in
>> > Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
>>>charges $60 per
>> > hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
>>>if they are done
>> > correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider! That's
>>>more than my
>> > purchase price!
>> > Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
>>>(properly) in
>> > the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
>>>overseas may still be
>> > a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
>>>now.
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Paul Gaines]

For spray fillers (primer surfacer) we use Sikkens
Colorbuid. It is a 2 part polyurethane sytem that
you can have blended to whatever color you want. It
is high-build and sands relatively easily. I have
sections of this filler on raw fiberglass and gelcoat
that has been sitting outside full time for 3 years
with no visible degradation. For thicker filling we
use 3M polyester glazing putty.



At 16:00 28 November 2003, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>Paul,
>
>What are you using for fillers.
>
>Richard
>
>'Paul Gaines' wrote in message
...
>> Paul Gaines here. I would like to comment on a couple
>> of things.
>>
>> John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
>> Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
>> again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
>> refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
>> skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
>> old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
>> critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
>> materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
>> (this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
>> fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make
>>money
>> above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
>> lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor,
>>or
>> charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
>> of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
>> is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
>> court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
>> By the way, if you are paying big money for your
>>refinish,
>> ask for progress photos to verify that all of the
>>crazed
>> gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of
>>trips
>> during the process to see what your baby looks like
>> naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
>> first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
>> come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
>> probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
>> we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
>> and I said I would not do one for that price again.
>> 20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
>> huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
>> eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
>> I have recomended this to several customers, and
>> you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
>> the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
>> polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
>> of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
>> to blend duiring repairs.
>>
>> I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
>> 20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
>> Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
>> sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
>> is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!
>> :)
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> At 00:54 27 November 2003, John wrote:
>> >WoW!
>> >
>> >First off, Paul Gaines finishes are second to none.
>> > These little
>> >negative comments seem to be 'dis'-in our boy here
>> >in Atlanta. But of
>> >course, whoever did your ship *would* be the best
>> >in the world, right? :)
>> >
>> >Paul Gaines does great work. Be sure to check out
>> >his highly customized
>> >ASW-20 on the floor of the convention here in Atlanta
>> >in February! You
>> >can see if you like the results.
>> >
>> >Anyone that has refinished a sailplane..... or for
>> >that matter, smoothed or
>> >profiled one to perfection and then final sanded to
>> >1200 and polished the
>> >entire thing can tell you of the work involved.
>> > Doing it 'right' is the
>> >big caveat. I've seen refinish jobs that fell
>>>apart
>> >in a couple of
>> >years. Waste of time!
>> >
>> >Doin' it right = Spending the time + Knowledge.
>> >Time + Knowledge = $$$$$
>> >
>> >
>> >John Bojack 'J4'
>> >LS-6c/18w
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >'Harold Ennulat' wrote in message
>> link.net...
>> >> I think that the best refinish jobs coming out of
>> >>the states right now are
>> >> by M&H Soaring in Elmira. Problem is that they are
>> >>usually booked for the
>> >> year by the end of the soaring season so you might
>> >>not be able to get it
>> >> done by spring. I just had my ASW-24 fuselage done
>> >>and it looks perfect!!
>> >>
>> >> Harold 'HE'
>> >>
>> >> 'Ventus B' wrote in message
>> >> om...
>> >> > All,
>> >> > I have been looking into having my glider refinished.
>> >>> Casual
>> >> > conversations with other pilots revealed that most
>> >>>think a 'normal'
>> >> > refinishing job would cost about $10k. After speaking
>> >>>with Gaines in
>> >> > Georgia, I believe that is wildly optimistic. Gaines
>> >>>charges $60 per
>> >> > hour, and he says the wings alone take 300+ hours
>> >>>if they are done
>> >> > correctly; 500+ hours to do the entire glider!
>>>>>That's
>> >>>more than my
>> >> > purchase price!
>> >> > Does anyone know where I might get my glider refinished
>> >>>(properly) in
>> >> > the US? I'm beginning to think that shipping it
>> >>>overseas may still be
>> >> > a cheaper option despite the poor exchange rates
>> >>>now.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[James]

Do you have any experience with Concept 70 polyuerethane from PPG?
I've seen some gliders painted with it and they still look newly
finished 3-4 years later.

Paul Gaines > wrote in message >...
> For spray fillers (primer surfacer) we use Sikkens
> Colorbuid. It is a 2 part polyurethane sytem that
> you can have blended to whatever color you want. It
> is high-build and sands relatively easily. I have
> sections of this filler on raw fiberglass and gelcoat
> that has been sitting outside full time for 3 years
> with no visible degradation. For thicker filling we
> use 3M polyester glazing putty.
>
>

[JJ Sinclair]

James wrote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.>
>Do you have any experience with Concept 70 polyuerethane from PPG?
>I've seen some gliders painted with it and they still look newly
>finished 3-4 years later.

I used it (PPG, Concept 70) on my Genesis 2 and Williams Soaring's repair shop
has used it for years now. I like it a lot, not cheap, though. Two gallons of
Super white (Toyota 041)+ catalyst and thinner cost $600 bucks. That mixes up
to 3.75 gallons though and more than enough to refinish a 15 meter sailplane. I
sprayed on 3 medium to wet, coats and then wet sanded with 600 wet and 800 wet,
followad by buffing. Finatics will go to 1000 wet and even 1200 wet. I'm happy
at 800.

I no longer recommend Prestec (sprayable gel-coat) for ships that are left out
all the time (FBO's) after seeing a ship that was refinished with Prestec,
crack and checker after only 4 years of outside tie-down. The acrylic urethanes
like Concept 70, have held out well in the same outside environment. Williams
has an ASK-21, that was refinished with urethane, well over 10 years ago. It is
a bit worn, but still operational and she never sees inside storage.
Hope this helps,


JJ Sinclair

[Tom Seim]

This may be totally off the wall, but has anyone thought about
bringing the worker to the glider, rather than vice versa?

[tango4]

Tom!

Are you suggesting hiring labour overseas just so that you can pay them
below the regular rate? I'm sure your local labour market would just love
you to import some Eastern Europeans for 2 months to refinish your
capitalist, elitist toy at a quarter the price of a locally quoted job.

On that basis I'm sure there are several million people worldwide prepared
to pack their bags and leave for Ellis Island tomorrow. Hell, I might even
be one of them!

I can just see it now, factory workers all over the USA down tools and riot
in the streets just because of a bit of Gelcoat!

:-)

Ian

"Tom Seim" > wrote in message
om...
> This may be totally off the wall, but has anyone thought about
> bringing the worker to the glider, rather than vice versa?

[Eric Greenwell]

Paul, is it possible to reduce the costs by peeling off and replacing
the outer fiber layer instead of sanding down the gel coat? It's
mentioned in my Schleicher manual, but maybe it's not generally applicable?

Paul Gaines wrote:

> John is correct. Doing it right is the 'BIGGIE'.
> Some people think that 'right' is shiny and flying
> again. We do not do refinish work that way. At best,
> refinishing a composite ship is grueling, un-healthy,
> skilled busy work. Done properly means ALL of the
> old cracked/crazed gelcoat is removed CAREFULLY, re-contouring
> critical areas of the entire aircraft, and using high-quality
> materials. We spend about $2000 alone just in materials
> (this includes high qulity polyurethane paints and
> fillers, not gelcoat). The only way you can make money
> above break-even is by taking short cuts and doing
> lower quality work, utilizing cheap enough labor, or
> charge more than 99% of the customers would ever dream
> of paying. Usually a combination of the first 2 conditions
> is the case. I would rather watch Michael Jackson
> court proceedings than do break even refinish work.
> By the way, if you are paying big money for your refinish,
> ask for progress photos to verify that all of the crazed
> gelcoat is removed. Better yet, plan a couple of trips
> during the process to see what your baby looks like
> naked. If you do the math that was discussed in the
> first e-mail of this thread, 30k is the number you
> come up with on one of our refinishes. The number
> probably would not be that high. The last full refinish
> we did in the proper fashion outlined here was 15k,
> and I said I would not do one for that price again.
> 20 -25k would be the number. Not much of an alternative,
> huh? I think that sending your ship over to the former
> eastern block is a viable alternative for many people.
> I have recomended this to several customers, and
> you can make a mini vacation out of it by visiting
> the facility. And wherever you have this done, request
> polyurethane. It lasts much longer, and in the hands
> of someone that knows what they are doing, it is easier
> to blend duiring repairs.
>
> I estimate we will have 1000 hours in my modified/refinished
> 20C that will be in Atlanta '04, and she will be wearing
> Sikkins polyurethane. Crazy amount of labor for any
> sailplane, but it keeps me out of bars! And the ASW-20
> is the prettiest fiberglass/composite glider made!
>
--
-----
Replace "SPAM" with "charter" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Janusz Kesik]

U=BFytkownik Nils Hoeimyr > w wiadomooci do grup =
dyskusyjnych ...
> In Poland you can get a good refinish at a reasonable price.
> Check out http://www.avionic.pl for details. (They did an excellent
> job with our 55). But you have the problem of shipping the glider
> across the Atlantic, which is probably of the order of 1-2k$ one way.

Yes, I agree, not only Avionic, but also few other companies. Last year =
I have heard of few British clubs which brought gliders for refinishing =
here, plus every time I visited one of these repair shops I have always =
seen a lot of gliders wearing foreign registrations repaired or =
refinished there. This can be especially attractive, considering that =
the Euro / Polish Zloty exchange rate is at it's historic peak reaching =
4.70PLN / 1 Euro, as it used to be circa 3.60PLN / 1 Euro which makes =
our work some 30% cheaper. Mentioned above Avionic produces also great =
trailers, and this would be a perfect opportunity to get one using the =
benefits of strong Euro too.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[JJ Sinclair]

How to Refinish a sailplane for $8500 (US)

1. Hire high school kids (part time)
2. Pay them $10 per hour.
3. provide them with:
A. Walk-Man, CD player (large headset)
B. Dust mask.
C. Gloves.
D. Air-board or DA with ample 36 paper.
E. Give them 10 min break every hour.
F. Free lunch.
4. Supervise your employees.
5. Charge customer $20 per hour.
6. Average refinish should be around 350 hours:
A. 350 x $20 = $7000
B. Materials, sandpaper, fillers, paint, etc = $1500
7. Total (out the door) = $8500
8. Profit 350 x $10 = $3500
JJ Sinclair

[Pete Russell]

So that's how you made your million's ;-)

Pete

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> How to Refinish a sailplane for $8500 (US)
>
> 1. Hire high school kids (part time)
> 2. Pay them $10 per hour.
> 3. provide them with:
> A. Walk-Man, CD player (large headset)
> B. Dust mask.
> C. Gloves.
> D. Air-board or DA with ample 36 paper.
> E. Give them 10 min break every hour.
> F. Free lunch.
> 4. Supervise your employees.
> 5. Charge customer $20 per hour.
> 6. Average refinish should be around 350 hours:
> A. 350 x $20 = $7000
> B. Materials, sandpaper, fillers, paint, etc = $1500
> 7. Total (out the door) = $8500
> 8. Profit 350 x $10 = $3500
> JJ Sinclair

[Eric Greenwell]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
> How to Refinish a sailplane for $8500 (US)
>
> 1. Hire high school kids (part time)
> 2. Pay them $10 per hour.
> 3. provide them with:
> A. Walk-Man, CD player (large headset)
> B. Dust mask.
> C. Gloves.
> D. Air-board or DA with ample 36 paper.
> E. Give them 10 min break every hour.
> F. Free lunch.
> 4. Supervise your employees.
> 5. Charge customer $20 per hour.
> 6. Average refinish should be around 350 hours:
> A. 350 x $20 = $7000
> B. Materials, sandpaper, fillers, paint, etc = $1500
> 7. Total (out the door) = $8500
> 8. Profit 350 x $10 = $3500

Can you find kids that will do that for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week,
for the 8 weeks it'd take? How much training does it take to get them to
do it right, and is that included in the 350 hours?

Regardless of who does the work, is there "best time" to have the
refinish done? It seems it would be lot cheaper to do it at the first
sign of crazing, when not so much sanding has to be done. So, do it as
soon as crazing appears, wait until the it starts to flake off, or when?

--
-----
Replace "SPAM" with "charter" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[tango4]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Regardless of who does the work, is there "best time" to have the
> refinish done? It seems it would be lot cheaper to do it at the first
> sign of crazing, when not so much sanding has to be done. So, do it as
> soon as crazing appears, wait until the it starts to flake off, or when?

The only way to do the job properly is to remove all of the Gel. Surface
sanding cracked Gelcoat and refinishing over that is bound to get a job that
lasts less than 5 years.

Ian

[JJ Sinclair]

Eric wrote>>>>>>>>>>>>.>
>Can you find kids that will do that for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week,
>for the 8 weeks it'd take?

A couple of hours in the afternoon and weekends, these kids are still in
school. 10 bucks an hour is good money to them.

>How much training does it take to get them to
>do it right, and is that included in the 350 hours?

On-the-job training. Removing gelcoat is hard, boring and monotonous work. The
supervisor (JJ) must be constantly looking over the shoulder.

>
>Regardless of who does the work, is there "best time" to have the
>refinish done?

It's cost less to refinish before the cracks go all the way down to the glass.
My point in posting is there are literally hundreds of 20 year old ships out
there that are in need of refinishing. Some of their owners would pop for a
refinish that cost less than 10K. I would think some enterprising repair shop
would go after this market. I have done refinish jobs for under 10K, when JJ
Glider Repair was in business, but my workers (2 sons) graduated from high
school and pursued more lucrative careers.

Three, part-time high school kids or one good *undocumented* worker would keep
a refinish job in the shop all the time. The owner would have to do the more
technical things, like mixing, spraying and inspecting. After that, it's just a
*gel-coat removing party*, followed by a *contouring party*, followed by a *wet
sanding party*, and then finish up with a *Buffing party*.


JJ Sinclair

[bumper]

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> Three, part-time high school kids or one good *undocumented* worker would
keep
> a refinish job in the shop all the time. The owner would have to do the
more
> technical things, like mixing, spraying and inspecting. After that, it's
just a
> *gel-coat removing party*, followed by a *contouring party*, followed by a
*wet
> sanding party*, and then finish up with a *Buffing party*.
>
>
> JJ Sinclair



Remind me to ignore any *party* invitations coming from JJ!

Liability is a problem when hiring high school kids. This keeps many
established businesses from providing the summer jobs that were available in
my youth. My company would happily provide summer jobs if there were some
reasonable way to do so. One has to either do it right with payroll taxes,
workers comp, etc or run an unacceptable financial risk in our sue-happy
society.

--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

[Tom Seim]

"tango4" > wrote in message >...
> Tom!
>
> Are you suggesting hiring labour overseas just so that you can pay them
> below the regular rate? I'm sure your local labour market would just love
> you to import some Eastern Europeans for 2 months to refinish your
> capitalist, elitist toy at a quarter the price of a locally quoted job.
>
> On that basis I'm sure there are several million people worldwide prepared
> to pack their bags and leave for Ellis Island tomorrow. Hell, I might even
> be one of them!
>
> I can just see it now, factory workers all over the USA down tools and riot
> in the streets just because of a bit of Gelcoat!

The U.S. has a long history of bringing in foreign "guest" workers, a
good number of them undocumented (i.e. illegal). The documentation
headaches to do this is probably not worth the resultant savings.

Does anybody know what they charge for refinishing in Canada, or if
there is anyone doing it?

Tom

[Nolaminar]

Once there was talk of a floating shop that would do refinishing. Take the
barge to the county had the least expensive labor force.
That would be like a long range cruise ship Exotic destinatios. Hula dancers.

[Udo Rumpf]

Tom,
Canada's Standard of living is high and we have similar
market conditions. No third world Country here.
XU Aviation which advertise every month in soaring
http://www.xu-aviation.com/
Also Ed Hollestelle Jr. may do refinishing, I am not 100% sure on that,
but I know he does fibreglass repair
Udo


It is possibal to safe about 10% -15% outright if everything is said and
done
"Tom Seim" > wrote in message
om...
> "tango4" > wrote in message
>...
> > Tom!
> >
> > Are you suggesting hiring labour overseas just so that you can pay them
> > below the regular rate? I'm sure your local labour market would just
love
> > you to import some Eastern Europeans for 2 months to refinish your
> > capitalist, elitist toy at a quarter the price of a locally quoted job.
> >
> > On that basis I'm sure there are several million people worldwide
prepared
> > to pack their bags and leave for Ellis Island tomorrow. Hell, I might
even
> > be one of them!
> >
> > I can just see it now, factory workers all over the USA down tools and
riot
> > in the streets just because of a bit of Gelcoat!
>
> The U.S. has a long history of bringing in foreign "guest" workers, a
> good number of them undocumented (i.e. illegal). The documentation
> headaches to do this is probably not worth the resultant savings.
>
> Does anybody know what they charge for refinishing in Canada, or if
> there is anyone doing it?
>
> Tom

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, JJ Sinclair
> writes
>How to Refinish a sailplane for $8500 (US)
>
>1. Hire high school kids (part time)
>2. Pay them $10 per hour.
>3. provide them with:
> A. Walk-Man, CD player (large headset)
> B. Dust mask.
> C. Gloves.
> D. Air-board or DA with ample 36 paper.
> E. Give them 10 min break every hour.
> F. Free lunch.
>4. Supervise your employees.
>5. Charge customer $20 per hour.
>6. Average refinish should be around 350 hours:
> A. 350 x $20 = $7000
> B. Materials, sandpaper, fillers, paint, etc = $1500
>7. Total (out the door) = $8500
>8. Profit 350 x $10 = $3500
>JJ Sinclair

The words 'Peanuts' and 'Monkeys' come to mind.
--
Mike Lindsay