To Walter Eisele and Comrades

[John]

Give it up, Walter!

Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and you
will only succeed in 2 things:

1. Causing the extinction of some exquisitely beautiful sailplanes.

2. Having you and your 'secret investor' go bankrupt.


Leave LS in DG's capable German hands!

[Janusz Kesik]

> Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, =
and you
> will only succeed in 2 things:

HAHAHAHAAHAAAA... Eastern Block manufactured crap! ROFLMAO!!! :)))
Have You ever heard that Stemme S-10 is manufactured in Poland and the =
German just put the engine inside and stick the brand name?
It's hard to understand but true.

--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[Clint]

"John" > wrote in message .net>...
> Give it up, Walter!
>
> Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and you
> will only succeed in 2 things:
>
> 1. Causing the extinction of some exquisitely beautiful sailplanes.
>
> 2. Having you and your 'secret investor' go bankrupt.
>
>
> Leave LS in DG's capable German hands!

How much of the current DG's are manufactured in Slovenia (AMS)? What
content % of SH gliders are currently being manufactured in the old
Eastern Block? I think that all German manufactures are feeling the
pinch of a high value euro and expensive labour and are looking for
ways to make glider manufacturing more cost effective. These saving
will hopefully be passed on to us - the glider pilots who fly these
beautiful machines.

The LAK's currently being manufactured are very well built and appear
to be finished as well as their German counterparts. If the LS 4 can
be bought back into production at an affordable price - with a finish
equal to the original gliders - why should people not buy it? It
appears that the HpH 304 C and CZ's, which were also originally German
gliders - now being manufactured by a Czech company, are selling well.

Maybe I am a little biased as the LAK which I bought for a price far
cheaper than any comparable German glider is an absolute joy to fly. I
also have the pleasure of owning my own glider with all the pride that
goes with it every time that people admire my beautiful ship.

Clinton
LAK 12

[James]

The wing tips on Blaniks are an example of beautiful hand crafted
workmanship that came from the Eastern block.



"John" > wrote in message .net>...
> Give it up, Walter!
>
> Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and you
> will only succeed in 2 things:
>
> 1. Causing the extinction of some exquisitely beautiful sailplanes.
>
> 2. Having you and your 'secret investor' go bankrupt.
>
>
> Leave LS in DG's capable German hands!

[bumper]

I own a Stemme, most of the composite work done in Poland. And also a
Schleicher 26e, German to the bone.

Inside the Stemme, in places most won't see without a borescope, there's
dust and fiberglass bits that could/should have been removed before
assembly. Some Stemmes more of this, some less. If I were building it and
taking pride in my work, all those out of sight places would be spotless.

In those hidden away places inside my 26e, it's absolutely flawless. Seems
Schleicher cares just as much about the "hidden quality" as the pretty
outsides.

btw, I still love the Stemme!

Fact remains that quality sometimes suffers when using sub-contractors. Bits
of fiberglass are way more acceptable than spar caps that come apart.


--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."


"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message
...
> Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and
you
> will only succeed in 2 things:

HAHAHAHAAHAAAA... Eastern Block manufactured crap! ROFLMAO!!! :)))
Have You ever heard that Stemme S-10 is manufactured in Poland and the
German just put the engine inside and stick the brand name?
It's hard to understand but true.

--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[John]

Clint,

Can you tell us about parts availability and service experiences with LAK?

J4
"Clint" > wrote in message
om...
> "John" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > Give it up, Walter!
> >
> > Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and
you
> > will only succeed in 2 things:
> >
> > 1. Causing the extinction of some exquisitely beautiful sailplanes.
> >
> > 2. Having you and your 'secret investor' go bankrupt.
> >
> >
> > Leave LS in DG's capable German hands!
>
> How much of the current DG's are manufactured in Slovenia (AMS)? What
> content % of SH gliders are currently being manufactured in the old
> Eastern Block? I think that all German manufactures are feeling the
> pinch of a high value euro and expensive labour and are looking for
> ways to make glider manufacturing more cost effective. These saving
> will hopefully be passed on to us - the glider pilots who fly these
> beautiful machines.
>
> The LAK's currently being manufactured are very well built and appear
> to be finished as well as their German counterparts. If the LS 4 can
> be bought back into production at an affordable price - with a finish
> equal to the original gliders - why should people not buy it? It
> appears that the HpH 304 C and CZ's, which were also originally German
> gliders - now being manufactured by a Czech company, are selling well.
>
> Maybe I am a little biased as the LAK which I bought for a price far
> cheaper than any comparable German glider is an absolute joy to fly. I
> also have the pleasure of owning my own glider with all the pride that
> goes with it every time that people admire my beautiful ship.
>
> Clinton
> LAK 12

[Tanel]

Think a little bit. Do you call Lak-17/19 and Genesis2, HPH produced
Glasfluegel 304CZ and ELAN/AMS gliders DG-505/1000 eastern-block
manufactured crap? Lak-17 showed its perfomance at Lezsno last summer
and it wasn't bad at all.

Tanel (flown Blaniks Jantars and Laks- all so called eastern-block
manufactured crap)

John wrote:
> Give it up, Walter!
>
> Nobody will buy your Eastern block manufactured "pseudo-LS" crap, and you
> will only succeed in 2 things:
>
> 1. Causing the extinction of some exquisitely beautiful sailplanes.
>
> 2. Having you and your 'secret investor' go bankrupt.
>
>
> Leave LS in DG's capable German hands!
>
>
>
>

[Janusz Kesik]

> Think a little bit. Do you call Lak-17/19 and Genesis2, HPH produced=20
> Glasfluegel 304CZ and ELAN/AMS gliders DG-505/1000 eastern-block=20
> manufactured crap?=20

Add to this list SZD-55, SZD-51 Junior for beginners, and SZD-50 Puchacz =
for complete newbies.
All of them are in production again.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[John]

I call all those ships you mentioned 'second rate' performers.

Who is going to develop anything new for LS out of the Eastern Block?

How can you hope to compete with the German University trained whiz-kid
designers?

The best that can be done is the provision of cheap labor to build something
designed elsewhere...... and with the advent of the Discus CS and Duo-Discus
spar problems, I doubt even that.

Should LS go out of Germany, I hope you prove us all wrong.

John


"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message
...
> Think a little bit. Do you call Lak-17/19 and Genesis2, HPH produced
> Glasfluegel 304CZ and ELAN/AMS gliders DG-505/1000 eastern-block
> manufactured crap?

Add to this list SZD-55, SZD-51 Junior for beginners, and SZD-50 Puchacz for
complete newbies.
All of them are in production again.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[cernauta]

"John" > wrote:


>How can you hope to compete with the German University trained whiz-kid
>designers?
....
>Should LS go out of Germany, I hope you prove us all wrong.

As I understand, maybe I'm wrong, LS has been bought by German
investors lead by Walter Eisele. Production, only, will be
sub-contracted to LAK for the obvious reason of low costs and good
quality history.
So, development of new models would be in the hands (heads) of the
german owners...
As a DG fan I'm not happy, their service has always been excellent; as
a glider pilot, I wait and see what happens next. Maybe the court?

Aldo Cernezzi

[Janusz Kesik]

> How can you hope to compete with the German University trained =
whiz-kid
> designers?

Huh... I'll have a great mood for today! Laugh is good in the morning. =
:)
Stereotypes again...

Have a nice day,

Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[Janusz Kesik]

> Wait for the new HPH 304(5)S and the 'new' SZD-56 (
> read the daily bullitens from Leszno WGC for new developments
> planned

The '56' is in the production already. You can always contact the =
designer at:
www.bpberes.com.pl
I might give a wrong address, just typing from the memory. If it's =
wrong, I'll send the good one later.

This thread is just about some (umfortunately many) people whose minds =
can't accept that the Germany, US, UK and few other nations hasn't =
monopoly for a high quality production or service and the East Europe =
which can intercept much of the production as we can do it at least =
equally good and at the lower price.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[Guy Byars]

> intercept much of the production as we can do it at least equally good and
at the lower price.

Equally good in Eastern Europe? Like, Duo-Discus spars for example?

[Nils Hoeimyr]

Guy Byars wrote:
>>intercept much of the production as we can do it at least equally good and
>
> at the lower price.
>
> Equally good in Eastern Europe? Like, Duo-Discus spars for example?
>
Well, I would not judge all producers in Eastern Europe on the basis of
one sub-contractor.

Neither SZD- nor LAK gliders have had any similar problems. I guess the
whole question of quality boils down to engineering and responsibilities
for quality control.

As in many other areas of business, excessive sub-contracting may lower
quality, as the sub-contractors may not always take the same interest
and pride in the end product.

We all agree the Germans are good with glider design and manufacturing.
But also Poland and Lithuania have long traditions with composite
stuctures as well as research in low-speed aerodynamics. One should not
dismiss the Slovenes or Czech either.

Nils

[Kevin Neave]

And how many German Duos / Discuses were inspected
to see that they didn't have similar problems ?

:-)

At 15:42 03 December 2003, Guy Byars wrote:
>
>> intercept much of the production as we can do it at
>>least equally good and
>at the lower price.
>
>Equally good in Eastern Europe? Like, Duo-Discus spars
>for example?
>
>
>
>
>

[Young Pratt]

Come on dont knock the east too much,some of the designs and proformance have
been very good,build quality crap, but then without materials! im sure ive
seen some eastern manifactures walking around BQ looking at various hinges and
screws,ask Tim Mc fad,and Graham Morris what they think of eastern build
quality.Or better still check the BGA TECH page and add up all the M mods for both
east and west gliders.

The real issue is if your poor buy eastern crap,and if your Dad is rich get
him to buy western over priced gliders, purhaps we could have some more
nationals! or better still make the gsa fly the eastern regionals flying eastern
gliders and all the rich people fly from the south and west with the best west
gliders and we could all stay in The Best Western hotels and the poor with the
gsa stay in tents!

[Slingsby]

Tanel > wrote in message >...
> Think a little bit. Do you call Lak-17/19 and Genesis2, HPH produced
> Glasfluegel 304CZ and ELAN/AMS gliders DG-505/1000 eastern-block
> manufactured crap? Lak-17 showed its perfomance at Lezsno last summer
> and it wasn't bad at all.
>
> Tanel (flown Blaniks Jantars and Laks- all so called eastern-block
> manufactured crap)
>
> John wrote:
The LAK 17/19 and Genesis gliders made at the LAK factory are all very
well manufactured products with a high degree of workmanship. They
also use (at least the Genesis) parts and raw materials which come
from USA, Germany, England and Sweden. Carpenter steel, AN hardware,
Cleveland wheel and brake systems and hydraulics; springs from Century
Spring. Resin and glass/carbon/kevlar cloth from Germany; bearings,
bellcranks, pushrods, hinges, pivots etc. from Germany and the USA.
Foam from Sweden springs and gas struts from England. What the LAK
17/19 and Genesis gliders DON"T have is tinkertoy wing spars which
have to be bonded blindly and then aren't/can't be inspected for bond
continuity after assembly. If the LS gliders get transferred to LAK
they shgould let the LAK engineers redesign the wing so it has a good
strong well glued spar instead of a maybe so maybe not upper spar cap.

[Janusz Kesik]

Actually the address is www.beres.com.pl

Regards,

JK

[Peter Meilhede]

Guy Byars wrote:

>>intercept much of the production as we can do it at least equally good and
>
> at the lower price.
>
> Equally good in Eastern Europe? Like, Duo-Discus spars for example?
>
>
>
>
I believe SchempHirth actually owns the plant where the are are build!:
"Die Mitarbeiter der Filiale Chocen, welche seit 1997 unter dem Namen
Schempp-Hirth Vyroba Letadel firmiert, waren vorher im
Flugzeugbau des bekannten Herstellers ORLICAN tätig und
sind im Rahmen von Strukturumwandlungen als egenständiger Betrieb von
Schempp-Hirth übernommenen worden.
Laufende Schulungen im Stammhaus und Qualitätssicherungsmaßnahmen vor
Ort waren natürlich von Anbeginn der wichtigste Bestandteil der
Kooperation und sind heute die Basis einer vorsichtigen
Expansionspolitik über die Landesgrenzen hinaus."

Its a snip from:
http://www.schempp-hirth.com/de/unternehmen/geschichte/page13/index.html

If they got qualityproblems, then its a SH problem!

Best regards

Peter