Aerotow rope drogue chute?

[John Galloway]

I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
mentioned in passing that their club used a little
drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
some information - or did I just imagine it?

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

This sounds like bad news to me, it increases the risk that the rope may
foul the glider after release.

I recall that there was a fatality in New Zealand when the rope had a funnel
close to the end, to stabilise it; it also caused the rope to ride high.
The glider was a Slingsby Dart, and after release the rope wrapped round a
tailplane.

Also, in the U.K. there was a fatality to a Bocian flown solo when the rope
fouled the glider, I am not sure whether this was after release or due to a
bow in the rope.

Anything which might cause the rope to get close to the glider after release
should be avoided.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "John Galloway" > wrote in
> message ...
>
> I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> some information - or did I just imagine it?
>

[BTIZ]

Why would a rope foul a glider tail plane unless it was a very slack line
and back released..

We use a "drag" device, wiffle balls, to help the tow rope "fly higher" than
with the weight of the Tost ring better clear the approach end fence, and to
keep the rope from "whipping" and tying itself in knots.

Of course, I'm told, that the people in OZ fly "low tow", below the prop
wash, so on release.. I can see where the rope will "ascend" and possible
smack the canopy if released with any slack.

I prefer to release at or very slightly above the tow planes altitude,
always watching the rope drop away, even with the "drag device".

BT

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
...
> This sounds like bad news to me, it increases the risk that the rope may
> foul the glider after release.
>
> I recall that there was a fatality in New Zealand when the rope had a
funnel
> close to the end, to stabilise it; it also caused the rope to ride high.
> The glider was a Slingsby Dart, and after release the rope wrapped round a
> tailplane.
>
> Also, in the U.K. there was a fatality to a Bocian flown solo when the
rope
> fouled the glider, I am not sure whether this was after release or due to
a
> bow in the rope.
>
> Anything which might cause the rope to get close to the glider after
release
> should be avoided.
>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> >
> > "John Galloway" > wrote in
> > message ...
> >
> > I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> > mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> > drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> > to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> > Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> > some information - or did I just imagine it?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Giganews]

At Dunstable we experimented a few years ago with devices to make the rope
fly higher; useful as we are surrounded by fences, hedges and power wires.
We found that while these worked, they were not nearly tough enough to
withstand being dragged about on the surface of our airfield and were
rapidly destroyed after a few backtracks. As a result we abandoned the
experiment.

The real point about avoiding collisions between the glider and the rope
after release is that the glider MUST make a climbing turn immediately after
the pilot has ascertained that the rope has been released. As an instructor,
I find there is in increasing tendency for students not to do this, probably
because their mind-set is established by winch launching, where lowering the
nose after release is the normal action. When flying with an aerotow-cleared
student for the first time, I work on the worst-case assumption they will
push rather than pull after releasing the aerotow. I guard the stick as they
release and if they don't make an adequate climbing turn, I take control
immediately, make the climbing turn, and make a mental note to mention this
item to the student in the post-flight debrief. In this case I would insist
on a second aerotow in which I want to see the student demonstrate the
correct technique after release before I sign them off. This might seem
harsh but it could be a life-saver.

David Starer

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
...
> This sounds like bad news to me, it increases the risk that the rope may
> foul the glider after release.
>
> I recall that there was a fatality in New Zealand when the rope had a
funnel
> close to the end, to stabilise it; it also caused the rope to ride high.
> The glider was a Slingsby Dart, and after release the rope wrapped round a
> tailplane.
>
> Also, in the U.K. there was a fatality to a Bocian flown solo when the
rope
> fouled the glider, I am not sure whether this was after release or due to
a
> bow in the rope.
>
> Anything which might cause the rope to get close to the glider after
release
> should be avoided.
>
> W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> >
> > "John Galloway" > wrote in
> > message ...
> >
> > I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> > mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> > drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> > to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> > Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> > some information - or did I just imagine it?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

[John Galloway]

BT,

What is a wiffle ball made of and what size is it and
how long do they last on the end of tow ropes?

Thanks,

John Galloway

At 04:18 08 December 2003, Btiz wrote:
>Why would a rope foul a glider tail plane unless it
>was a very slack line
>and back released..
>
>We use a 'drag' device, wiffle balls, to help the tow
>rope 'fly higher' than
>with the weight of the Tost ring better clear the approach
>end fence, and to
>keep the rope from 'whipping' and tying itself in knots.
>
>Of course, I'm told, that the people in OZ fly 'low
>tow', below the prop
>wash, so on release.. I can see where the rope will
>'ascend' and possible
>smack the canopy if released with any slack.
>
>I prefer to release at or very slightly above the tow
>planes altitude,
>always watching the rope drop away, even with the 'drag
>device'.
>
>BT
>

[Mark James Boyd]

>What is a wiffle ball made of and what size is it and
>how long do they last on the end of tow ropes?
>
>John Galloway
>

It's a little hollow plastic ball about the size of
an orange or softball which has a bunch of holes
through it to make it even less aerodynamic. Kids
buy them with a plastic bat and can hit the ball as hard
as they want and it only goes about 5 feet (that's
about 1.6 meters for you international chaps).

Buy a set for your kids, and when they get tired of
it, cut the balls in half and put them on the end of
the tow rope. The bat is useless for the tow
pilot, but I've seen instructors use them to help
improve student progress ;-P

They last I dunno, maybe hundreds of tows? I guess
it depends on cement vs. dirt runways...

[janusc]

John Galloway > wrote in message >...
> BT,
>
> What is a wiffle ball made of and what size is it and
> how long do they last on the end of tow ropes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Galloway
>
> At 04:18 08 December 2003, Btiz wrote:
> >Why would a rope foul a glider tail plane unless it
> >was a very slack line
> >and back released..
> >
> >We use a 'drag' device, wiffle balls, to help the tow
> >rope 'fly higher' than
> >with the weight of the Tost ring better clear the approach
> >end fence, and to
> >keep the rope from 'whipping' and tying itself in knots.
> >
> >Of course, I'm told, that the people in OZ fly 'low
> >tow', below the prop
> >wash, so on release.. I can see where the rope will
> >'ascend' and possible
> >smack the canopy if released with any slack.
> >
> >I prefer to release at or very slightly above the tow
> >planes altitude,
> >always watching the rope drop away, even with the 'drag
> >device'.
> >
> >BT
> >hit the canopy
When one exercise a correct release in either high or low tow the rops will not

[John Galloway]

Mark,

Thanks. Sounds worthy of a trial.

John Galloway


At 21:24 08 December 2003, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>>What is a wiffle ball made of and what size is it and
>>how long do they last on the end of tow ropes?
>>
>>John Galloway
>>
>
>It's a little hollow plastic ball about the size of
>
>an orange or softball which has a bunch of holes
>through it to make it even less aerodynamic. Kids
>buy them with a plastic bat and can hit the ball as
>hard
>as they want and it only goes about 5 feet (that's
>about 1.6 meters for you international chaps).
>
>Buy a set for your kids, and when they get tired of
>it, cut the balls in half and put them on the end of
>the tow rope. The bat is useless for the tow
>pilot, but I've seen instructors use them to help
>improve student progress ;-P
>
>They last I dunno, maybe hundreds of tows? I guess
>it depends on cement vs. dirt runways...
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

I agree completely with David Starer about what pupils ought to do, and what
to do about it if they don't.

What I don't understand is why some instructors teach the pupil to pull the
release twice. If it does not release the first time, why should it
release the second? Invariably it does release the first time, but the
pupil delays starting the climbing turn until after the second pull.

The sequence I teach is:

a. Make sure it is safe (collision risk) to turn in the intended
direction.
b. Look ahead at the cable and pull the release.
c. As soon as the cable is seen to release start the climbing turn, and
look again to make sure it is safe to continue the turn.

It is important that the turn is not started with the rope still attached
(this has been known, tug pilots don't like it!).

It is also important that the turn is started as soon as the rope is free,
it is surprising how close the glider sometimes gets to the rope if the
pupil is slow to start the turn.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Giganews" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> At Dunstable we experimented a few years ago with devices to make the rope
> fly higher; useful as we are surrounded by fences, hedges and power wires.
> We found that while these worked, they were not nearly tough enough to
> withstand being dragged about on the surface of our airfield and were
> rapidly destroyed after a few backtracks. As a result we abandoned the
> experiment.
>
> The real point about avoiding collisions between the glider and the rope
> after release is that the glider MUST make a climbing turn immediately
> after the pilot has ascertained that the rope has been released. As an
> instructor, I find there is in increasing tendency for students not to do
> this, probably because their mind-set is established by winch launching,
> where lowering the nose after release is the normal action. When flying
> with an aerotow-cleared student for the first time, I work on the
> worst-case assumption they will push rather than pull after releasing the
> aerotow. I guard the stick as they release and if they don't make an
> adequate climbing turn, I take control immediately, make the climbing
> turn, and make a mental note to mention this item to the student in the
> post-flight debrief. In this case I would insist on a second aerotow in
> which I want to see the student demonstrate the correct technique after
> release before I sign them off. This might seem harsh but it could be a
> life-saver.
>
> David Starer
>
> >
> > "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > This sounds like bad news to me, it increases the risk that the rope may
> > foul the glider after release.
> >
> > I recall that there was a fatality in New Zealand when the rope had a
> > funnel close to the end, to stabilise it; it also caused the rope to
> > ride high. The glider was a Slingsby Dart, and after release the rope
> > wrapped round a tailplane.
> >
> > Also, in the U.K. there was a fatality to a Bocian flown solo when the
> > rope fouled the glider, I am not sure whether this was after release or
> > due to a bow in the rope.
> >
> > Anything which might cause the rope to get close to the glider after
> > release should be avoided.
> >
> > W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> > Remove "ic" to reply.
> >
> > >
> > > "John Galloway" > wrote
> > > in message ...
> > >
> > > I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> > > mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> > > drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> > > to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> > > Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> > > some information - or did I just imagine it?
> > >
> >
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

I don't know the details of the New Zealand accident, I just know that it
did happen; but I am relying on memory without checking. It was a long
time ago, the glider was brand new and was being test flown after first
assembly.

One of the reasons that "high" tow (i.e. above the tug propwash) is always
used for launching in the U.K. is to ensure that the rope drops away. Any
device on the rope which might make it fly up is bad news.

"Low" tow (i.e. below the propwash) is used as a training exercise, and when
towing cross-country as distinct to launching. It is much more comfortable
when towing level and fast; but we always go to "high" tow to release.

At one time Lasham used a light type of rope with a breaking strain of 1,000
lbs. and no weak link, because they wanted to land close to the edge of the
field with the rope likely to drag through crops; this rope flew higher than
a heavier rope with a weak link on the end, but did not actually fly up.

Tost used to make a winch to fit on the tug to wind in the rope after
release, I have not checked to see if they still do and I have never seen
one.

Derek Piggott once told us that there was an operation in the USA where a
tug winch was used.

The vital thing with any winch system is that it easy for the tug pilot to
cut the rope loose without delay if there is a problem.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:_MSAb.13915$yf.10724@fed1read01...
>
> Why would a rope foul a glider tail plane unless it was a very slack line
> and back released..
>
> We use a "drag" device, wiffle balls, to help the tow rope "fly higher"
> than with the weight of the Tost ring better clear the approach end fence,
> and to keep the rope from "whipping" and tying itself in knots.
>
> Of course, I'm told, that the people in OZ fly "low tow", below the prop
> wash, so on release.. I can see where the rope will "ascend" and possible
> smack the canopy if released with any slack.
>
> I prefer to release at or very slightly above the tow planes altitude,
> always watching the rope drop away, even with the "drag device".
>
> BT
>
> >
> > "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > This sounds like bad news to me, it increases the risk that the rope may
> > foul the glider after release.
> >
> > I recall that there was a fatality in New Zealand when the rope had a
> > funnel close to the end, to stabilise it; it also caused the rope to
> > ride high. The glider was a Slingsby Dart, and after release the rope
> > wrapped round a tailplane.
> >
> > Also, in the U.K. there was a fatality to a Bocian flown solo when the
> > rope fouled the glider, I am not sure whether this was after release or
> > due to a bow in the rope.
> >
> > Anything which might cause the rope to get close to the glider after
> > release should be avoided.
> >
> > W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
> > Remove "ic" to reply.
> >
> > >
> > > "John Galloway" > wrote
> > > in message ...
> > >
> > > I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> > > mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> > > drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> > > to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> > > Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> > > some information - or did I just imagine it?
> > >
> >
>

[BTIZ]

we don't cut ours in half, we use the whole ball, drilling holes at the
"poles" to thread the safety link through, or higher up the rope above the
"safety to rope" connection.

The balls out here in the desert south west can last about 100 launches,
landings are the roughest on it, dragging it over the ground at 60knts or
less, we don't drop the rope on landing, but leave it attached to the tug
and either back taxi if the landing was long, or just pull up for the next
tow. What a difference a 5knt headwind makes on the landing distance
required.


BT
"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:3fd4e9c8$1@darkstar...
> >What is a wiffle ball made of and what size is it and
> >how long do they last on the end of tow ropes?
> >
> >John Galloway
> >
>
> It's a little hollow plastic ball about the size of
> an orange or softball which has a bunch of holes
> through it to make it even less aerodynamic. Kids
> buy them with a plastic bat and can hit the ball as hard
> as they want and it only goes about 5 feet (that's
> about 1.6 meters for you international chaps).
>
> Buy a set for your kids, and when they get tired of
> it, cut the balls in half and put them on the end of
> the tow rope. The bat is useless for the tow
> pilot, but I've seen instructors use them to help
> improve student progress ;-P
>
> They last I dunno, maybe hundreds of tows? I guess
> it depends on cement vs. dirt runways...
>

[Buck Wild]

John Galloway > wrote in message >...
> I have a vague recollection that a while back someone
> mentioned in passing that their club used a little
> drougue chute near the glider end of the aerotow rope
> to fly the rings higher during approach and landing.
> Does that ring any bells? If so I would appreciate
> some information - or did I just imagine it?

You could use the wiffle balls, they are still manufactured, but
here's what I've used when I ran out of wiffle balls;
take your imported water bottle, like the 16oz size, not the liter
size, and cut off the bottom half. Put the rope through the neck, and
the tost rings will retract into the top of the bottle, preventing
them from dragging down the runway. A proper water bottle will "fly"
like the wiffle ball, and there's always a fresh supply around. Warn
your friends with nose-pitot like libelle, no airspeed on tow.
The ball or bottle will last forever on turf, one or two trips through
the barbed wire fence, and for awhile on tarmac.
There's also retractable towrope systems, with pros & cons.
-Dan

[Stephen Cook]

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
...
> I agree completely with David Starer about what pupils ought to do, and
what
> to do about it if they don't.
>
> c. As soon as the cable is seen to release start the climbing turn, and
> look again to make sure it is safe to continue the turn.
>
> It is important that the turn is not started with the rope still attached
> (this has been known, tug pilots don't like it!).
>

The BGA are now teaching instructors on Assistant Cat courses to climb away
from the tug without turning. This was reported by someone at my club who
did a course recently. Unfortunately I can't remember the reason for the
change.

Stephen

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Are you sure there has not been a misunderstanding?

Which club is this, where was the Assistant Cat course and who was the
coach?

For the U.K. the B.G.A. give advice to be found in "Laws and Rules for
Glider Pilots" 14th edition June 2003:

Under "Recommended Practices":

"RP13. After releasing the cable, the glider should turn away so that the
tug aircraft pilot can see clearly that the glider is free."

If you can find out the reason given I should very much like to hear it,
since it contradicts the BGA's own recommended practice published just 6
months ago. If there has been a change in doctrine since then I have not
heard about it.

Apart from other considerations, it is normal to release in order to join a
thermal, failing to turn at once could easily lose you the thermal.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Stephen Cook" ]> wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > I agree completely with David Starer about what pupils ought to do, and
> > what to do about it if they don't.
> >
> > c. As soon as the cable is seen to release start the climbing turn,
> > and look again to make sure it is safe to continue the turn.
> >
> > It is important that the turn is not started with the rope still
> > attached (this has been known, tug pilots don't like it!).
> >
>
> The BGA are now teaching instructors on Assistant Cat courses to climb
> away from the tug without turning. This was reported by someone at my
> club who did a course recently. Unfortunately I can't remember the
> reason for the change.
>
> Stephen
>

[John Smith]

Bill,

The emphasis of the exercise being taught is that it
is not necessary to turn away from the tug. All that
is required is to gently decelerate the glider by gently
climbing the glider as the tug will accelerate away.
This was demonstrated by both Dave Bullock and Simon
Adlard on assistant cat courses at Bicester some 3
years ago.
The emphasis on turning is not always practical particularly
if one has been towed close to a ridge e.g. both aircraft
would require to turn away from the ridge - if the
glider remains straight on course the tug turning away
will result in divergence of both rope and glider.
Suggest that if you want to discuss this further that
you should contact either of the National Coaches to
determine the exact reasoning for this teaching.

SRE Scotland & Borders

[Stephen Cook]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
>
> The emphasis of the exercise being taught is that it
> is not necessary to turn away from the tug. All that
> is required is to gently decelerate the glider by gently
> climbing the glider as the tug will accelerate away.
> This was demonstrated by both Dave Bullock and Simon
> Adlard on assistant cat courses at Bicester some 3
> years ago.
> The emphasis on turning is not always practical particularly
> if one has been towed close to a ridge e.g. both aircraft
> would require to turn away from the ridge - if the
> glider remains straight on course the tug turning away
> will result in divergence of both rope and glider.
> Suggest that if you want to discuss this further that
> you should contact either of the National Coaches to
> determine the exact reasoning for this teaching.
>
> SRE Scotland & Borders
>

Thanks for this John. I was going to get in touch with the person on the
course before replying to Bill's post.

If this has been the recommended method for three years why hasn't it
reached the rest of us? Our Chief Flying Instructor makes an effort to get
recently qualified instructors to pass on what they have learnt, but there
should be a more direct route than this. This isn't the only change to
instructional technique that I have found out about on the grapevine. Why
isn't there an instructors newsletter?

Stephen

[Vaughn]

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
>
> The emphasis of the exercise being taught is that it
> is not necessary to turn away from the tug. All that
> is required is to gently decelerate the glider by gently
> climbing the glider as the tug will accelerate away.
> This was demonstrated by both Dave Bullock and Simon
> Adlard on assistant cat courses at Bicester some 3
> years ago.
> The emphasis on turning is not always practical particularly
> if one has been towed close to a ridge e.g. both aircraft
> would require to turn away from the ridge

Other situations also come to mind, for example, traffic or cloud
clearance issues may make a turn a bad option. Also it should be stressed
that turns after a waveoff depend on the situation; first, it is important
to allow the towplane the most direct path to the runway (assume that he
really has an emergency) and second, the glider itself may not want to turn
away from the runway if it was a low waveoff.

Vaughn

[John Smith]

The release without turning is not a recommended method as such and does =
not replace a (climbing?) turn where local club rules require that the =
glider turn in a specific direction after tow. The aim , I believe, is =
to show that a highly banked and fast climbing turn is not required as =
it is this scenario that causes tug upsets when the glider pilot has not =
ensured that the tow rope has actually released prior to initiating the =
turn. As a tug pilot myself I know which method of release that I would =
prefer particularly if the rope hangs up on the glider. If the club =
rules specify a particular direction of turn this may be due to the =
position of the mirror on the tug or for other similar visibility =
reasons. This exercise shows that after the rope is released a gentle =
climb is all that is required to achieve separation. It can be combined =
with a turn in either direction.

[Libelle Driver]

We don't teach climbing turns on release because of setting up the habit of
slowing down after the release. If the rope breaks, you need that airspeed
to make the turn back to the field. If you get in the habit of climbing,
you will always climb and slow down.

Fred