What glider if not a Speed Astir?

[Flyhighdave]

So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then would
be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me happy
for a while. Thanks for your input!
David

[Arnold Pieper]

The Pegase would fit the bill perfectly.
The LS-4 or Jantar Std 3 as well, but they would cost a bit more.

"Flyhighdave" > wrote in message
...
> So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then
would
> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me
happy
> for a while. Thanks for your input!
> David

[Shawn Curry]

Flyhighdave wrote:

> So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then would
> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me happy
> for a while. Thanks for your input!
> David
Mosquito, ASW-19, Libelle, 1-34 (in N. America).

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

The ASW-19 would do as well as the Pegase, not quite as good a performance,
but should be cheaper.

The ASW-19 was the machine of choice for the U.K. team in the Junior Sport
Class World Gliding Championships this year, it has also been bought by the
Surrey & Hants. gliding club for their early pilots, they have the biggest
single seater fleet of any civilian club in the U.K.

I agree about the Pegase and LS-4, I am not familiar with the Jantar
Standard.

In my own opinion, the ASW-19 is a nice glider and I would always be happy
to fly one. The Pegase is nicer, and the LS-4 nicer still. This is also
the order of performance, and of price.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Arnold Pieper" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
> The Pegase would fit the bill perfectly.
> The LS-4 or Jantar Std 3 as well, but they would cost a bit more.
>
> >
> >"Flyhighdave" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What
> > then would be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time
> > pilot training & soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under
> > $20,000 that will keep me happy for a while. Thanks for your input!
> >
> > David
> >
>

[BTIZ]

Libelle or Kestral both under $20K
.... Maybe an LS-4 on the higher cost side.

BT

"Flyhighdave" > wrote in message
...
> So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then
would
> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me
happy
> for a while. Thanks for your input!
> David

[Janusz Kesik]

Well, a Jantar Standard 2/3 or Junior (depending what You like more - LD
40:1 or extremely easy handling respectively) would be perfect I think.
If You'll be looking hard, guys from my club have found Jantars in CIS fo
r a bargain price, and now we have 6 of them at our field. You may look f
or them also.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

[Andrew Warbrick]

Are you seriously recommending the Kestrel to a low
hours pilot? Fifteen million knobs and levers, some
of which make life very interesting very quickly, big
glider handling and flaps. Sheesh.

At 04:30 11 December 2003, Btiz wrote:
>Libelle or Kestral both under $20K
>.... Maybe an LS-4 on the higher cost side.
>
>BT
>
>'Flyhighdave' wrote in message
...
>> So some of you really don't think to highly of the
>>Speed Astir. What then
>would
>> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low
>>time pilot training &
>> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000.
>>that will keep me
>happy
>> for a while. Thanks for your input!
>> David
>
>
>

[Don Johnstone]

The only major drawback with a Kestrel is the speed
control (the airbrakes make a nice noise and that is
about all) needed for landing: getting into a short
field, or even a long one can be a challenge but with
the right training it is not impossible. (The extra
levers etc are not a problem in practice) I think that
I would have to say that the Kestrel is probably safer
for a low hours pilot than a Libelle. The Libelle is
a very fine glider but it can also get very interesting
very quickly, probably quicker than a Kestrel.
My personal choice would be a Discus, very easy to
fly and no real nasties but I have no idea of the price
of one your side of the pond. I would agree with the
choice of an ASW 19 the only problem is the size of
the cockpit. Like my ASW17 a challenge to fit if you
are tall.

As an aside the is a file on www.gliderpilot.net in
File Downloads which describes a modification for Kestrel
airbrakes which does help a little. Do not expect Grob
103/ASK21 airbrake performance from this mod

At 09:18 11 December 2003, Andrew Warbrick wrote:
>Are you seriously recommending the Kestrel to a low
>hours pilot? Fifteen million knobs and levers, some
>of which make life very interesting very quickly, big
>glider handling and flaps. Sheesh.
>
>At 04:30 11 December 2003, Btiz wrote:
>>Libelle or Kestral both under $20K
>>.... Maybe an LS-4 on the higher cost side.
>>
>>BT
>>
>>'Flyhighdave' wrote in message
...
>>> So some of you really don't think to highly of the
>>>Speed Astir. What then
>>would
>>> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low
>>>time pilot training &
>>> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000.
>>>that will keep me
>>happy
>>> for a while. Thanks for your input!
>>> David
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Owain Walters]

Dave,

Ignore the kestrel and the junior.

Most of the other suggestions are pretty reasonable.


Jantar - looks ugly but has lots of poke
Libelle - actually goes better than people think. You
just need to fly it properly
Cirrus - goes well
ASW-19 - nice handling, looks good and has a bit of
poke
Pegase - nearly the same as the 19.
LS4 - if you can stretch to this get one. Ignore all
of the above, if you cant then see above!

BTW. There is a good deal on a Pegase on wings and
wheels which may be of interest to you. (commission
payable to Owain Walters!)

Owain

[JS]

Why not http://www.apisgliders.com/ : brand new... sexy... lightweight...
38-40:1...


"Flyhighdave" > wrote in message
...
> So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then
would
> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me
happy
> for a while. Thanks for your input!
> David

[Chris OCallaghan]

Dave,

Here's a slightly different point of view. Most of the gliders that
have been recommended are well-mannered, reasonably priced, and easy
to fly. They are also fragile. You are a low time pilot. Your next
steps will be to start increasing your range until you are making
cross-country flights out of easy glide to airports. That means you're
likely to make a few off field landings during the next few years. In
selecting your first glider, you should be aware that you will make
some mistakes and misjudgements. The sturdiness of the glider you
select will make the difference between flying the next day and
waiting weeks or months to complete repairs. The slower the glider
flies, the less likely you'll get damage on rollout in a rough field.
A nose wheel or nose skid goes a long way towards keeping you out of
the repair shop if you have a hard landing. Metal is tougher than
glass, glass is tougher than wood and fabric.

To that end, I would recommend you take your X-C apprenticeship in a
1-26. Yes, the performance defines the low end of the spectrum and
you'll land out a lot, but you'll also gain the experience that will
keep your next glider free of cracks. If it has to be glass, consider
a Grob 102 or ASK-23. A flapped glider offers slower touchdown speeds
(desirable) but at the cost of greater complexity. Besides, the three
models mentioned are very easy to fly, have a very short learning
curve (you get comfortable in them quickly), and can be had at very
reasonable prices. Put two hundred hours on whatever you get, earn
your silver badge while doing it, then trade up. Regardless which way
you go, make sure you have a trailer that works. That means you can
assemble or disassemble major all major components of the glider with
one other person in fifteen minutes or less. If it requires two
helpers or more than a quarter hour, look for another glider.

Regards,

Chris

[Bruce]

Have to agree Chris, but also disagree.

For what it is worth, I will give my experience of recently getting to
the point of having my own XC aircraft.

Most of the first generation glass ships have some quirks, but they are
generally easy to fly. If it is still flying after 20-30 years it can't
be THAT fragile iether.

I made my transition as a very low time solo pilot to a Standard Cirrus
and found it a relatively easy move. The quirks and inexperience are
going to have you paying some school fees though... I was seriously
considering buying a low performance trainer as my first personal
glider, as I felt this was all I was competent to fly. In retrospect I'm
very grateful for the advice I got (some in this forum) to go and buy a
glider that would let/force me to develop.

Chris is right in that you will probably be gratefull for a sturdy
aircraft when you make the inevitable mistakes. I had to repair some gel
coat after overbraking and getting her on the nose, and being a early
model Cirrus the landing characteristics, coupled with my hamfisted
flying have resulted in some interesting arrivals. 100 hours in the
Cirrus and I am getting to the point where an outlanding in a field
would be OK (not comfortable mind). My one outlanding so far was at an
airport with decent facilities. I could have tried to make it home, but
caution is better for keeping the glider intact...

What I found was that even in the case of a glider with a bit of a
reputation for being challenging it is possible to make a safe
transition and get going on XC flying. My flying capabilities are no
better than average for a low time pilot (<200 hours) As long you take
progressive steps you will not be exposing yourself or the glider to
extreme risk.

That said, some things happen because the glider is old. Metal fatigue
on my main wheel rim had me sliding down the runway with a locked wheel
after the rim seperated - very lucky to get away with a new rim and tyre
there.

My Cirrus has around 2000 hours on the airframe, she started life as the
mount of a couple of very competitive pilots. They flew her to the limit
as a (then state of the art) racing machine. She has at least 8 flights
> 500km and one over 800km under the belt, has been groundlooped,
landed in rough fields and landed without the benefit of the main wheel
twice. The most serious damage to date was when my partner landed neatly
on the grass runway parallel to our tar runway, and hit a landing light
that had been displaced when they cut the grass. The cockpit tub split,
and a new canopy was needed, repair took two weeks.

All in all, repairs have been relatively minor, cheap, and relatively
quick to make.

My advice would be to buy a glider that will challenge you and let you
develop as fast as possible. I would not advocate first buying a low
performance, but tough trainer. I can't speak for all of the others,
but certainly my Cirrus, the Grob and the Libelle are robust early glass
ships. Certainly I would not describe the Cirrus as fragile.

I certainly would rather have the constraints of having to learn the
cautious way in a glider with 36:1 than end up landing in the dirt
regularly. 6 months of getting comfortable and slowly challenging myself
has us at a best XC of 250km, one airfield outlanding and one landing
where I damaged the glider. I only have 8 hours in an Astir, so you must
take the opinion for what it is worth, but I would be quite happy to
recommend one. It is tough, docile and has reasonable performance.
Certainly a lot easier to land than the Cirrus although a little slower
cross country. The mods to stop flutter are not exactly aesthetically
pleasing though.

Whatever you do - that first personal glider is likely to be yours for a
long time, so rather get a "stretch" glider than one you are going to
grow out of fast.

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

David,

On your other thread you gave your experience as:

"In my case "novice" means about 20 training flights & a few solo flights in
a Grob 103 II A. I guess I'm really just a beginner!"

The recommendation to buy a Kestrel is irresponsible and dangerous. I
owned a Slingsby Kestrel 19 for 8 seasons. It is now outstanding value,
performance for the money, but completely unsuitable for someone of your
level of experience.

I think a Libelle whether 301 (flapped) or 201 (standard class) is also
unsuitable. Owain owned one (perhaps still does if he has not found a
buyer yet) and flew it very well with considerable success. His 201 has
the Sreifeneder mods., winglets and improved wingroot fairing.

He gives a clue to the problem with the Libelle when he says "You just need
to fly it properly", to an experienced pilot this comes quickly, but you do
not need this problem!

Libelle airbrakes are not as good as those on the ASW-19, Pegase or LS-4 and
at your level of experience this matters a lot.

The Libelle is probably the easiest and lightest of all gliders to rig.

I have flown a Junior, it is a nice glider and an obvious first solo glider
for a club to own. But the performance is not as high as the other gliders
mentioned, and you would soon outgrow it. I suspect that there are not
many of them in the U.S.A.

I know of one club which owned a fixed wheel version of the Pegase. They
trained on K21s and the requirement to fly the Peg. was 5 hours solo. I
flew that glider and liked it.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Owain Walters" > wrote in
> message ...
>
> Dave,
>
> Ignore the Kestrel and the Junior.
>
> Most of the other suggestions are pretty reasonable.
>
> Jantar - looks ugly but has lots of poke.
> Libelle - actually goes better than people think. You
> just need to fly it properly.
> Cirrus - goes well.
> ASW-19 - nice handling, looks good and has a bit of
> poke.
> Pegase - nearly the same as the 19.
> LS4 - if you can stretch to this get one. Ignore all
> of the above, if you cant then see above!
>
> BTW. There is a good deal on a Pegase on wings and
> wheels which may be of interest to you. (Commission
> payable to Owain Walters!)
>
> Owain
>

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Janusz Kesik > wrote:
>Well, a Jantar Standard 2/3 or Junior (depending what You like more - LD
>40:1 or extremely easy handling respectively) would be perfect I think.
>If You'll be looking hard, guys from my club have found Jantars in CIS fo
>r a bargain price, and now we have 6 of them at our field. You may look f
>or them also.
>

I don't think I would buy any glider unless I had
rented it first. Minden has a Mini-nimbus,
LS-3, LS-4, and grob 102s. If it ain't too inconvenient,
rent some before you buy. Maybe you fall in love
with something. You also could perhaps get someone
to add you to their insurance so you can try out their
glider. Could be hard to find someone willing to
do that, but it's worth a shot...especially if it's
a PW-5 or Russia or Pegasus with the gear left down...

[Janusz Kesik]

A PW-5 :)

JK

[Arnold Pieper]

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
>
> Here's a slightly different point of view. Most of the gliders that
> have been recommended are well-mannered, reasonably priced, and easy
> to fly. They are also fragile.

....Another reason why I think the Jantar Std 3 is an excellent ship, not
only as a "first" ship, but because it can also be a first ship.
It's built like a tank. I takes a lot of beating to even bend those sturdy
gear doors or the gear mechanism.
Tail boom is as strong as they come.

You can fly it without ballast, get comfortable with it for 50 hrs or so...
Then fill the integral water ballast tanks (no bags to fiddle with) and see
what life is all about.

You will be happy for a long time.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:37:50 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>Come on ... a Pegasus is the same class as an LS4. But your advice is
>very good. The poster should rent a glider before buying a model of a
>given type. There is no better opinion that one's. Anyways, i shall
>venture to give my advice: LS4, ASW20 or Pegasus (very similar) as first
>choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
>gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
>beginners.

ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
Bold... very bold.


Bye
Andreas

[Michel Talon]

Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:37:50 +0000 (UTC),
> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>
>>Come on ... a Pegasus is the same class as an LS4. But your advice is
>>very good. The poster should rent a glider before buying a model of a
>>given type. There is no better opinion that one's. Anyways, i shall
>>venture to give my advice: LS4, ASW20 or Pegasus (very similar) as first
>>choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
>>gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
>>beginners.
>
> ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
> Bold... very bold.

Yes you are right, the LS3 is quiter,
and similarly the LS4 is quiter than the Pegase.

--

Michel TALON

[Janusz Kesik]

Well... no storm? :)))

By the way, the PW-5 would be truly perfect for one who has just
soloed...

Regards,

JK

[Mark James Boyd]

>>choice. LS3, ASW19 as second choice. If not too expensive, flapped
>>gliders (LS3,ASW20) are preferable but a little more demanding for
>>beginners.
>
>ASW 20 for a beginner who just soloed?
>Bold... very bold.
>

I know of power pilots who are newly transitioned
to slippery retract airplanes (Bonanza V35, for example).
They ask me about flying them IFR. I tell them that
for the first dozen flights in actual (usually
just climb or approach though a 1000 foot thich stratus layer),
I just flew with cowl flaps open and the gear down. Then
it flew sorta like a Cezzna 172.
More stable, harder to forget the gear, and less airspeed
change with pitch. After I get more
experience I complicated things and was able to
fire off a speedy checklist...

An ASW-20 has flaps, spoilers, and retract gear.
One can simulate gear with a little gear knob
with lights found at Sporty's.
Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
And have your partners check to see if the gear
lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
if it ain't :)

Is there a flap setting in the ASW-20 that one
can use for the entire flight? If one
left the flaps at +8 for takeoff, slowly flying around,
and then landing, would this be fine? Or is it like the
PIK-20 where one sets -8 flaps till rotation then
0...

I noticed the mini-nimbus flight manual
(which I was able to read online) seems to allow flaps
+8 for takeoff (given certain C.G.s and weights),
+8 for slow aerotow,
+8 for slow and thermalling flight
+8 for landing.

So in the mini-nimbus
this "set it and forget it" seems at least
possible for a few familairization pattern tows.

If one can set flaps and fly them for the whole
flight that way, then it seems one could fly a
half dozen "pattern tows" with flaps at the same setting
and the gear down, and get familiar with trim and
spoiler use without immediate added complexity
of retract and flaps.

www.soaravenal.com/041903.htm
outlines one experience of a newbie
to using flaps and retract simultaneously.
I believe he (or perhaps it was someone else)
also had a few inexpensive nascent ground loops as well...

I have Bob Wander's single-seat transition and
it seemed to mention nothing about this gradual
approach to familiarizing oneself to complex
single-seaters. Perhaps I am off in left field...

It does seem, however, that buying into a parnership
with a sleek ASW-20 would be great if combined
with the discipline to follow a regimented
training plan that avoids use of flaps and gear,
if this is an option. And perhaps a similary sized
"test pilot helper" to fly it right before
hand and set the trim just right for takeoff.

[Marc Ramsey]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
> An ASW-20 has flaps, spoilers, and retract gear.
> One can simulate gear with a little gear knob
> with lights found at Sporty's.
> Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
> a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
> And have your partners check to see if the gear
> lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
> if it ain't :)

The real problem for a low time pilot in an ASW-20 isn't complexity. If
you put a typical 20 in thermal or landing flap and get a little slow in
a turn, it will do a nice spin entry, with a lot less warning and in a
more spectacular fashion than most low time pilots are used to. It
isn't an issue if you have enough experience to know reflexively what to
do, but for those who have trained in and only flown gliders which are
reluctant to spin, there are safer choices...

Marc

[John Shelton]

Mark,

You have to balance your need against your pocketbook. You seem to have some
sense about you so let me offer you another way of looking at aircraft
selection that is safe, affordable, and gets you a good glider.

Buy what you want to fly and as much as you can afford. If that airplane is
an ASW-20, then good. You end up with a good, well-known glider with good
parts support and a market to sell into when you are done with it.

You don't end up with a useless, out-of-date ship that will keep you from
moving up when the time comes because you won't be able to find a buyer.

How is this safe? Simple: Get trained by a competent instructor in relevant
equipment. When that instructor says you are trained, go fly your glider.

Your instructor will show you spins. If you don't think the trainer is
similar enough or instructor experienced enough, go find one that is. Then
go up and spin your glider. Don't do this the other way around.

And as far as retractable gear, there is one sure fire way of assuring
yourself that you will always put it down. Don't fly it. A good second
choice (but one that can fail) is to develop habits, follow checklists,
maintain situational awareness, and double check yourself. Still....

Every pilot started with NO knowledge and NO experience. An extremely small
percentage have had accidents. This is because sensible pilots get the
training they need. If you don't get instruction and you aren't very smart
and you run out of luck, there is nothing on RAS that will help you avoid
the inevitable.

But, Mark, an ASW-20, like most "high performance" gliders gives you the
performance in soaring to have more fun and since most of your time will be
flying and not crashing, buy something that will help you accomplish that
goal.

Just don't assume you know how to do something until an instructor shows you
how.

John Shelton

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Dec 2003 11:07:26 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:


>Maybe fly around with the gear down all the time for
>a half-dozen, just using the "simulator?"
>And have your partners check to see if the gear
>lever is down for landing (you owe them a round
>if it ain't :)

Why do that? The gear is one more item on the landing check list,
that's all. And a landing checklist is mandatory anyway. Take the time
to familiarize yourself with the glider enough that you will not
forget this item.
Have you been driving your first car only with the first gear in the
beginning? ;)


>Is there a flap setting in the ASW-20 that one
>can use for the entire flight? If one
>left the flaps at +8 for takeoff, slowly flying around,
>and then landing, would this be fine? Or is it like the
>PIK-20 where one sets -8 flaps till rotation then
>0...

There is no such setting on the 20. On aerotow it has a strong
tendency to drop a wing (you need to change flap position to encounter
that, with crosswind you even use spoilers in the beginning of the
tow), and the landing flap setting of the 20 causes a very steep
approach where you need precise speed control. Not to mention the
pretty sharp spin entry.

In my opinion the 20 is the glider with the best flying
characteristics that was ever designed, but it's definitely not a ship
for a beginner who just soloed. If you are not safely able to handle
the above, you should stay away from a 20.

>If one can set flaps and fly them for the whole
>flight that way, then it seems one could fly a
>half dozen "pattern tows" with flaps at the same setting
>and the gear down, and get familiar with trim and
>spoiler use without immediate added complexity
>of retract and flaps.

Well.. if you are not able to handle the full range of the aircraft's
controls, you are in danger.
There is no sunbstitute for practice and experience. In my club you
needed 100 hrs to fly the 20 (after Ka-8, Astir, ASW-15, DG-300 and
ASW-24), and this is a value that I'd regard as safe.


>I have Bob Wander's single-seat transition and
>it seemed to mention nothing about this gradual
>approach to familiarizing oneself to complex
>single-seaters. Perhaps I am off in left field...

Well... his report didn't sound very safe to me I have to admit.

Just imagine one thing: Rope break at low altitude (I guess you have
some experience with that... lol).

Are you sure that you will be able to handle this in a complex
aircraft that you have flown for 30 seconds, which feels completely
different from the only glider you have ever flown (Grob G 103), which
is so quiet that you have to look at the airspeed indicator to see
your speed, where the horizon is on a completely different position
than in your 103, where you have to grab one lever (of three, all at
the same position, looking and feeling similar) on the left hand side
of the cockpit while you are dividing your attention between that
field in front of you, the airspeed indicator, the altimeter, and that
landing spot you want to hit?


>It does seem, however, that buying into a parnership
>with a sleek ASW-20 would be great if combined
>with the discipline to follow a regimented
>training plan that avoids use of flaps and gear,
>if this is an option. And perhaps a similary sized
>"test pilot helper" to fly it right before
>hand and set the trim just right for takeoff.

I'm strongly against a training plan that avoids the use of a part of
the aircraft's promary flight controls (yes... this is how I regard
flaps and gear).

Either a pilot is able to handle them, or he is not. In the latter
case he is not able to safely handle the plane.
Of course he might survive enough flights to become halfways
proficient in the plane, but I would not bet on that.

Basic rule #1: If you (and your instructors) are not 100% convinced
that you are going to be able to handle an aircraft, don't fly it.

Fly about 50 hours in an easier glass ship, and you will be doing fine
in a 20.

Bye
Andreas

[A P]

no, it's not worth it, it's being beneath contempt ;-)

A P
---
PW5 Antichrist

"Janusz Kesik" > wrote in message
...
> Well... no storm? :)))
>
> By the way, the PW-5 would be truly perfect for one who has just
> soloed...
>
> Regards,
>
> JK
>
>

[Richard Brisbourne]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:04:13 +0100, Andreas Maurer
> wrote:


>Well.. if you are not able to handle the full range of the aircraft's
>controls, you are in danger.
>There is no sunbstitute for practice and experience. In my club you
>needed 100 hrs to fly the 20 (after Ka-8, Astir, ASW-15, DG-300 and
>ASW-24), and this is a value that I'd regard as safe.
>

Just curious (only flown an ASW20 two or three times, a long time
ago)-

What two-seaters do you train in? Do you have any high performance
flapped two-seaters used for advanced training? Something nicely
spinnable like a Puchacz for spin training?

I agree that it can't be done without practice and experience, I just
have a suspicion that what the practice and experience is on may have
a bit to do with it. Also training can be pretty useful.
--
"Curmudgeonly is the new cool" (Terry Wogan)
(The real name at the left of the e-mail address is richard)

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:31:58 GMT,
(Richard Brisbourne) wrote:


>What two-seaters do you train in? Do you have any high performance
>flapped two-seaters used for advanced training? Something nicely
>spinnable like a Puchacz for spin training?

Primary training is done in ASK-21, spin training is done in DG-505
with short wings (and was done in Twin 2 when we still had one).

>I agree that it can't be done without practice and experience, I just
>have a suspicion that what the practice and experience is on may have
>a bit to do with it. Also training can be pretty useful.

I think in the end it comes down to overall experience - a pilot with
sufficient experience in non-flapped glass ships won't have problems
with a 20 (at least none of my club's pilots had) if he had a good
briefing.




Bye
Andreas

[Tim Hanke]

(Flyhighdave) wrote in message >...
> So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then would
> be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training &
> soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me happy
> for a while. Thanks for your input!
> David


You can pick up a nice Libelle for $12 to $15K US. An LS1-f is a nice
ship if you can come across one. Prices are about $17 to $20K.

Tim
e-mail: tim (at) adirondacksoaring.com

[nowhere]

ANY Schleicher standard class glass would be nice. I bought a 15 and
even though it doesn't have any more performance than the club's two
Grob 102's the WAY she flys is pure magic. A version of the Standard
Jantar, provided you find it comfortable (I do, many people I have
seen try our club's Jantar don't). Don't get an LS4 I'm sure it's a
very nice glider to fly but its so generic and faceless you might have
trouble picking out your own ship on the airfield. I swear they
produced them like plastic model airplane parts an a huge frame and
just clipped one off everytime someone ordered one. Or maybe they sold
them in Costco by the six-pack. "I'll take 6oo pounds of glider
please." "Certainly sir, what colour? "White thank you."

Just kidding.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, (nowhere) wrote:

> Don't get an LS4 I'm sure it's a
> very nice glider to fly but its
> so generic and faceless you might have
> trouble picking out your own ship on
> the airfield...

That's about the poorest excuse for not getting an LS-4 that I've ever
read. What matters isn't what you see of the glider, but rather what
you see _from_ it.

The LS-4 is about the sweetest-flying standard class ship I've ever
flown, and it has good performance and rugged construction besides.
Some days I regret not just buying one and being done with it. Ah, the
joys of competing with sanity itself...

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/