Competition I.D.

[Ray Lovinggood]

Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
numbers and/or letters?

Who decided they were necessary?
When?
Why?

etc...

(It's cold, gray, wet, and winter and I was just wondering
about the history of competition I.D.'s.)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d, 'W8' as in 'WAIT' for me!!!

[Andy Durbin]

Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message >...
> Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
> numbers and/or letters?
>
> Who decided they were necessary?
> When?
> Why?


I imagine they were required when turn point verification was done by
ground observers. Before my time though. I started with the high tech
cartridge cameras but now I can't even remember what the film type
was.


Andy (GY)

[John H. Campbell]

They started as numbers, possibly assigned as rankings as of some date as
the more prominent pilots of the 1950s had the low numbers, or maybe they
were just first in line, I forget. Dick Schreder was "1", A.J. Smith "2"...
Then 2 alpha characters, George Moffat "XX"..., 2 alpha-numeric, John
Seaborn "A8"..., 3 characters came in about a dozen years ago as the 2
character supply ran out, Tom Knauff "JOY"...

[Sam Fly]

Andy Durbin wrote:
> Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message >...
>
>>Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
>>numbers and/or letters?
>>
>>Who decided they were necessary?
>>When?
>>Why?
>
>
>
> I imagine they were required when turn point verification was done by
> ground observers. Before my time though. I started with the high tech
> cartridge cameras but now I can't even remember what the film type
> was.
>
>
> Andy (GY)

Andy, it was 1-26 camera and film...I still have two 1-26 instamatic
camera in a mount and 10 rolls of film in the freezer...Any one
interested in a deal ?

Sam Fly (7F)

[Doug Hoffman]

So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
them?"?

-Doug

> From: (Andy Durbin)
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Date: 15 Dec 2003 05:47:30 -0800
> Subject: Re: Competition I.D.
>
> Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message
> >...
>> Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
>> numbers and/or letters?
>>
>> Who decided they were necessary?
>> When?
>> Why?
>
>
> I imagine they were required when turn point verification was done by
> ground observers. Before my time though. I started with the high tech
> cartridge cameras but now I can't even remember what the film type
> was.
>
>
> Andy (GY)

[John Shelton]

That's easy. And I think that George Moffatt made reference to that in his
book when he commented that Hugh Bickel was particularly thoughtful for
painting the nose of his glider red.

When I am out there on course having not seen any of the nearby gliders for
an eternity and catch a glimpse of someone rolling into a climb, there is
nothing more encouraging than to look up and see R1 painted under the wing
instead of the number of a fellow doofus.

(In the case of R1, it would mean that I am way out in front, lost and in
deep kimchi, or under one of Roy Cundiff's old gliders)

"Doug Hoffman" > wrote in message
...
> So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
> them?"?
>
> -Doug
>
> > From: (Andy Durbin)
> > Organization: http://groups.google.com
> > Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> > Date: 15 Dec 2003 05:47:30 -0800
> > Subject: Re: Competition I.D.
> >
> > Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
> >> numbers and/or letters?
> >>
> >> Who decided they were necessary?
> >> When?
> >> Why?
> >
> >
> > I imagine they were required when turn point verification was done by
> > ground observers. Before my time though. I started with the high tech
> > cartridge cameras but now I can't even remember what the film type
> > was.
> >
> >
> > Andy (GY)
>

[Marc Ramsey]

"Doug Hoffman" > wrote...
> So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
> them?"?

Uh, would you prefer "Glider with red trim at latitude 39 degrees 17.05
minutes, 119 degrees 23.22 minutes, 11,500 feet, WATCH OUT I'M RIGHT BELOW
YOU!!!!"

Marc

[Sam Fly]

Doug,

I think it is a safety item to be able to identify a glider near you and
you wish to communicate with him/her. You sure cannot read the N number
as they are too small.

Sam Fly

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
> them?"?
>
> -Doug
>
>
>>From: (Andy Durbin)
>>Organization: http://groups.google.com
>>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
>>Date: 15 Dec 2003 05:47:30 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Competition I.D.
>>
>>Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message
>...
>>
>>>Does anyone know the story of Competition Identification
>>>numbers and/or letters?
>>>
>>>Who decided they were necessary?
>>>When?
>>>Why?
>>
>>
>>I imagine they were required when turn point verification was done by
>>ground observers. Before my time though. I started with the high tech
>>cartridge cameras but now I can't even remember what the film type
>>was.
>>
>>
>>Andy (GY)
>
>

[Fantsu]

"Doug Hoffman" > wrote in message
...
> So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
> them?"?

Faster to say and easier to remember, bigger to see, more reasons needed? ;)
Plus set the pilot in the competition feeling ;)

h

[CH]

how do you know the right frequency mate?
In comps you see the sign on the tail normally first.
In gaggles I try to be in a position, where I do not
see the comp sign under the wings close.
CH


"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Doug Hoffman" > wrote...
> > So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
> > them?"?
>
> Uh, would you prefer "Glider with red trim at latitude 39 degrees 17.05
> minutes, 119 degrees 23.22 minutes, 11,500 feet, WATCH OUT I'M RIGHT BELOW
> YOU!!!!"
>
> Marc
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

CH wrote:
> how do you know the right frequency mate?
> In comps you see the sign on the tail normally first.
> In gaggles I try to be in a position, where I do not
> see the comp sign under the wings close.

I know not where you are, but here in the US we normally use one of the
two frequencies assigned (more or less) to gliders. In a comp, we
always have a specified safety frequency. For general flying around, we
often have agreements on what frequencies will be used in specific
areas. If I can see the tail markings, I can almost certainly avoid. I
save screaming on the radio for those occasions when I can tell whether
the markings on the wing are mylar or painted...

[Doug Hoffman]

Good answer. Thanks, Marc. Although I have to say that often there is a
glider "way up there" when I enter his thermal and there is no way I can
read his numbers. So you must mean when we get fairly close, which
obviously you do as you phrased your answer. Stiil, makes sense as you say.

Regards,

-Doug

> From: "Marc Ramsey" >
> Reply-To: "Marc Ramsey" >
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:28:04 -0800
> Subject: Re: Competition I.D.
>
>
> "Doug Hoffman" > wrote...
>> So much for history. Isn't the real question now: "Why do we still use
>> them?"?
>
> Uh, would you prefer "Glider with red trim at latitude 39 degrees 17.05
> minutes, 119 degrees 23.22 minutes, 11,500 feet, WATCH OUT I'M RIGHT BELOW
> YOU!!!!"
>
> Marc
>
>

[Ray Lovinggood]

So, why were NEW numbers/letters required and not,
say, the last two or three numbers/letters of the glider's
registration?

The 1-26 association uses numbers reflecting their
serial numbers, I think. Why did they do that and
not their registration numbers?

My glider is registered as N564L and the competition
number is W8. Why did The Powers That Were (and probably
still are) decide using '4L' or '64L' wasn't good enough
(Painted and stuck on big and large) and decided we
needed 'vanity numbers?'

Ray Lovinggood
Still Wondering in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



At 08:18 16 December 2003, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>CH wrote:
>> how do you know the right frequency mate?
>> In comps you see the sign on the tail normally first.
>> In gaggles I try to be in a position, where I do not
>> see the comp sign under the wings close.
>
>I know not where you are, but here in the US we normally
>use one of the
>two frequencies assigned (more or less) to gliders.
> In a comp, we
>always have a specified safety frequency. For general
>flying around, we
>often have agreements on what frequencies will be used
>in specific
>areas. If I can see the tail markings, I can almost
>certainly avoid. I
>save screaming on the radio for those occasions when
>I can tell whether
>the markings on the wing are mylar or painted...
>

[Fantsu]

"Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
...
> So, why were NEW numbers/letters required and not,
> say, the last two or three numbers/letters of the glider's
> registration?
>
> The 1-26 association uses numbers reflecting their
> serial numbers, I think. Why did they do that and
> not their registration numbers?
>
> My glider is registered as N564L and the competition
> number is W8. Why did The Powers That Were (and probably
> still are) decide using '4L' or '64L' wasn't good enough
> (Painted and stuck on big and large) and decided we
> needed 'vanity numbers?'
>

Maybe because there would have quite a lot of same IDs. And here in Europe
in many countries there are only numbers, so clashes would have been
inevitable.

Of course there are still clashes in worlds, but probably not so many. In
most countries (I think) the soaring association takes care that no two IDs
coincide.

h

[Ray Lovinggood]

In America, it is possible to get a specific FAA registration
number (if it hasn't been claimed by others), so I
would think the possibility of using part of the registration
number as the I.D. If one or two or three letters
can be reserved by the country's soaring association,
why couldn't the same association keep track of the
registration numbers?

Don't misunderstand: I like my 'vanity' number, W8
as opposed to using part of my registration, N564L.
I was just trying to learn the 'who's, what's, when's,
why's, how's, etc.

I also believe in America, the FAA would not allow
me to get a 'vanity' registration number that ends
in W8. I don't think there can be a letter followed
by a numeral in the registration number.

Ray



At 12:18 16 December 2003, Fantsu wrote:
>
>'Ray Lovinggood' wrote in message
...
>> So, why were NEW numbers/letters required and not,
>> say, the last two or three numbers/letters of the
>>glider's
>> registration?
>>
>> The 1-26 association uses numbers reflecting their
>> serial numbers, I think. Why did they do that and
>> not their registration numbers?
>>
>> My glider is registered as N564L and the competition
>> number is W8. Why did The Powers That Were (and probably
>> still are) decide using '4L' or '64L' wasn't good
>>enough
>> (Painted and stuck on big and large) and decided we
>> needed 'vanity numbers?'
>>
>
>Maybe because there would have quite a lot of same
>IDs. And here in Europe
>in many countries there are only numbers, so clashes
>would have been
>inevitable.
>
>Of course there are still clashes in worlds, but probably
>not so many. In
>most countries (I think) the soaring association takes
>care that no two IDs
>coincide.
>
>h
>
>
>

[Bob Salvo]

> "Why do we still use
>> them?"?

Because there is a line on the contest application form that asks for "Contest
ID".


Bob

[Mark Brown]

You sure know its winter in the Northern Hemisphere
when we can start threads about the value of comp ID's!
Roll on summer, Im bloody freezing!

At 12:42 16 December 2003, Ray Lovinggood wrote:
>In America, it is possible to get a specific FAA registration
>number (if it hasn't been claimed by others), so I
>would think the possibility of using part of the registration
>number as the I.D. If one or two or three letters
>can be reserved by the country's soaring association,
>why couldn't the same association keep track of the
>registration numbers?
>
>Don't misunderstand: I like my 'vanity' number, W8
>as opposed to using part of my registration, N564L.
> I was just trying to learn the 'who's, what's, when's,
>why's, how's, etc.
>
>I also believe in America, the FAA would not allow
>me to get a 'vanity' registration number that ends
>in W8. I don't think there can be a letter followed
>by a numeral in the registration number.
>
>Ray
>
>
>
>At 12:18 16 December 2003, Fantsu wrote:
>>
>>'Ray Lovinggood' wrote in message
...
>>> So, why were NEW numbers/letters required and not,
>>> say, the last two or three numbers/letters of the
>>>glider's
>>> registration?
>>>
>>> The 1-26 association uses numbers reflecting their
>>> serial numbers, I think. Why did they do that and
>>> not their registration numbers?
>>>
>>> My glider is registered as N564L and the competition
>>> number is W8. Why did The Powers That Were (and probably
>>> still are) decide using '4L' or '64L' wasn't good
>>>enough
>>> (Painted and stuck on big and large) and decided we
>>> needed 'vanity numbers?'
>>>
>>
>>Maybe because there would have quite a lot of same
>>IDs. And here in Europe
>>in many countries there are only numbers, so clashes
>>would have been
>>inevitable.
>>
>>Of course there are still clashes in worlds, but probably
>>not so many. In
>>most countries (I think) the soaring association takes
>>care that no two IDs
>>coincide.
>>
>>h
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[JJ Sinclair]

When the US went to all GPS start gates, I asked the rules committee if we
could drop the contest ID, under the wing, as it would no longer be needed to
run the old ground controlled gate. It was decided to retain the under wing ID,
so that other pilots could see just *who* they were flying with.
The wing ID is oriented so it can be read from the front (for old gate) and
appears up-side-down to those in the same thermal. So, now I ask. Can we orient
it, right-side up? Not that I'm itching to scrub it off and then repaint it,
but how about new ships or those used ships in new hands?
JJ Sinclair

[Mark James Boyd]

Bob Salvo > wrote:
>> "Why do we still use
>>> them?"?
>
>Because there is a line on the contest application form that asks for "Contest
>ID".
>

So does the Contest ID identify the person or the sailplane?
If the glider is destroyed or sold, does the ID holder get
to move the ID number onto a different glider?

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Ray Lovinggood > wrote:

> So, why were NEW numbers/letters required and not,
> say, the last two or three numbers/letters of the glider's
> registration?

If we did that, few gliders would have unique IDs. About a quarter of
the gliders would be "Kilo Sierra," and another quarter would be
"Juliet Juliet."

:)

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:


> So does the Contest ID identify the person or the sailplane?
> If the glider is destroyed or sold, does the ID holder get
> to move the ID number onto a different glider?

In the USA, you can show up at any SSA sanctioned contest with any
contest ID you like. If another pilot has the same ID, the pilot with it
registered with SSA gets to use it, and the other pilot has to change
his, usually with some colored tape (say, MB into 1MB). No biggie.

The SSA has a policy on how long the ID is assigned to you: basically,
use it in contests or lose it. They won't make you take it off your glider.

The "problem", if there is one, comes not from the SSA, but from pilots
who've become very attached to their ID, and resent it when someone else
uses it, even if they are on the other coast and flying in a different
class. Others don't care and have gliders all over the country with the
same ID, since they didn't bother to remove it when they sell a glider.
I've sold 3 gliders with 6A on them, but haven't ever encountered them
at a contest. The one in Canada doesn't have the 6A on it anymore, but I
don't know about the others.

The two gliders I bought new, I got the registration number to agree
with the ID (N226A and N326A).

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bob Salvo]

>It was decided to retain the under wing ID,
>so that other pilots could see just *who* they were flying with

In that case the ID should be painted on the top, as well, to make it fair:)

Bob

[JJ Sinclair]

>>It was decided to retain the under wing ID,
>>so that other pilots could see just *who* they were flying with
>
>In that case the ID should be painted on the top, as well, to make it fair:)

If you do it right, they will all be below you. Gary, check my gear doors, I
think they might be open a pinch.


JJ Sinclair