View Full Version : Improved live tracking for the SSA membership?
Sean Fidler
April 4th 17, 06:51 PM
I would like to propose that the SSA consider providing its valued members with a far more comprehensive and well-adopted tracking solution (higher performance, more reliable hardware, negotiated member discounts, etc.). Tracking should not just for the benefit of contest pilots; tracking includes benefits for club operations & instruction, recreational pilots, cross country pilots, record pilots, badge pilots & competition pilots of all types. The SSA (and the sport of soaring in North America in general) desperately needs a more reliable, more affordable, more social, and more enjoyable tracking solution. Right now, the challenge is clearly the hardware and the service plan required to drive it. The SSA can, on behalf of its 10,000 members, is in an excellent position to organize, negotiate, promote and deliver a far better solution. The potential benifits are profound. I feel improved tracking should be part of the fee's that we all pay as members of the SSA and to attend SSA sanctioned contests and events. I'm not necessarily talking about a 100% free solution, but perhaps it could be free. We certainly should be working hard to understand what is possible and improve the current status quo.
For example, the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA) provides EXACTLY this benefit for their members. The GFA procured and supports 70 GFA owned "LiveTrack24 tracker devices" which go to every Australian contest in a custom Pelican case.
There is considerable upside to tracking in regards to promoting, sharing and enjoying our fantastic, visually appealing, relatively affordable, and environmentally friendly sport. Tracking is not just about contests or contests pilots (preempting the highly predictable "you rich guys" attack soon to follow this post). Tracking is about sharing the sport of soaring with those stuck on the ground and making it highly social (fun, exciting, compelling, attractive). From the 14-year-old kid sharing his training flights with his friends on Facebook to Gordon Bettenger's or Daniel Sahzen's next record flight being shared with the world live, tracking is a key element to maximizing our sports exposure and generating maximum interest.
We currently have a very good beta/framework solution with Glideport.aero, but it is simply not complete. Hardware/Service plans (reliability, price etc.) are not solved. Sadly, and predictably, our tracking interface is VERY poorly adopted. Even for contests!
Below are some potential tracking technology options (just to get the conversation started):
GLIDEPORT.AERO
GP.aero is the SSA's current tracking display solution. Thanks VERY much Pedja and Lane Bush.
Glideport.aero "COTS" mobile trackers may become available soon (2 demo units rumored, Pedja, PLEASE!!!!).
These devices will cost roughly $250 per unit and need a mobile data account.
Sean-
I generally agree with your analysis of tracking options. You must admit, though, that SPOT was first to offer satellite tracking coupled with SOS capability. Unfortunately, they implemented this service without altitude information, slow updates, no two-way communication and a "secondary" set of satellite receivers. That being said, they do deserve kudos for at least opening the door for enhanced technology, which is now becoming available.
I have been using SPOT for several years, and while the technology is not up to today's standards as offered by DeLorme (now Garmin), it has served its intended purpose; witness the number of rescues initiated and completed utilizing their services. Simply rating SPOT as "Crap" denigrates the valuable service they provided for several years prior to the introduction of more sophisticated devices. I doubt that the bush pilot down in B.F. Alaska was complaining about inferior technology when the rescue pilot showed up within two hours of the SOS signal.
Remember that these services are not intended primarily for real-time tracking. They are meant to be emergency locators, and like your car's spare tire, they are meant to be used in an emergency. Tracking is a secondary function, as most users (hikers, bikers, sailors, etc.) travel much slower and do not have the capability to move long distances from the last reported position, even with a 10 minute signal spacing. Sailplanes can travel a very long way in 10 minutes, and that tracking interval is not very helpful to rescue responders when it comes to our capabilities. Indeed, a pilot who went down a couple of years ago from Moriarty was not found for two days, even with SPOT. It was a medical incident and violent impact that rendered the scene barely recognizable as a crash site, but his SPOT transmissions at least gave searchers a general area to examine.
SPOT led the way, as did a variety of other Personal Locator Beacons (PLB). Now that the new generation of trackers (DeLorme InReach Explorer in particular) are available, with batch uploading of position (1 minute interval) on a 10 minute basis, with the addition of altitude information and the invaluable capability of two-way text communication through the truly global Iridium satellite constellation, it is obvious that the world has changed once again.
I have switched to InReach, even at the higher subscription price for the same reason I upgraded from a CAI302 to something more modern. Tracking is a benefit, but to tell you the truth, I grow weary of everybody knowing where I am all the time unless I want them to know where I am.
I checked into a hotel in Werribee, Victoria, Australia three weeks ago and Google was asking me to take some photos of the place and give a review before I got my bags into my room.
Ron Gleason
April 5th 17, 02:42 AM
On Tuesday, 4 April 2017 11:51:56 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I would like to propose that the SSA consider providing its valued members with a far more comprehensive and well-adopted tracking solution (higher performance, more reliable hardware, negotiated member discounts, etc.). Tracking should not just for the benefit of contest pilots; tracking includes benefits for club operations & instruction, recreational pilots, cross country pilots, record pilots, badge pilots & competition pilots of all types.. The SSA (and the sport of soaring in North America in general) desperately needs a more reliable, more affordable, more social, and more enjoyable tracking solution. Right now, the challenge is clearly the hardware and the service plan required to drive it. The SSA can, on behalf of its 10,000 members, is in an excellent position to organize, negotiate, promote and deliver a far better solution. The potential benifits are profound. I feel improved tracking should be part of the fee's that we all pay as members of the SSA and to attend SSA sanctioned contests and events. I'm not necessarily talking about a 100% free solution, but perhaps it could be free. We certainly should be working hard to understand what is possible and improve the current status quo.
>
> For example, the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA) provides EXACTLY this benefit for their members. The GFA procured and supports 70 GFA owned "LiveTrack24 tracker devices" which go to every Australian contest in a custom Pelican case.
>
> There is considerable upside to tracking in regards to promoting, sharing and enjoying our fantastic, visually appealing, relatively affordable, and environmentally friendly sport. Tracking is not just about contests or contests pilots (preempting the highly predictable "you rich guys" attack soon to follow this post). Tracking is about sharing the sport of soaring with those stuck on the ground and making it highly social (fun, exciting, compelling, attractive). From the 14-year-old kid sharing his training flights with his friends on Facebook to Gordon Bettenger's or Daniel Sahzen's next record flight being shared with the world live, tracking is a key element to maximizing our sports exposure and generating maximum interest.
>
> We currently have a very good beta/framework solution with Glideport.aero, but it is simply not complete. Hardware/Service plans (reliability, price etc.) are not solved. Sadly, and predictably, our tracking interface is VERY poorly adopted. Even for contests!
>
> Below are some potential tracking technology options (just to get the conversation started):
>
> GLIDEPORT.AERO
> GP.aero is the SSA's current tracking display solution. Thanks VERY much Pedja and Lane Bush.
> Glideport.aero "COTS" mobile trackers may become available soon (2 demo units rumored, Pedja, PLEASE!!!!).
> These devices will cost roughly $250 per unit and need a mobile data account.
> Glideport.aero supports mobile device apps (IGCDroid - Android & GlideTrack - iOS), InReach (and Spot, but see my comments below).
>
> LIVETRACK24 (http://www.livetrack24.com/services/index#services2)
> Gliding Federation Australia (Australian SSA) owns 70 and provides them to all Australian contests for tracking as a perk of membership.
> This solution was employed at the recent WGC. Very successful. No mobile application to deal with. A simple, 3x2x1 inch device with an ON/OFF button and light. That's it Turn it on, and it works (TOAW). TOAW is the hope/goal with Glideport.aero trackers above. Does it need to be any more complicated?
>
> INREACH/GARMIN TRACKING
> Satellite based, ultra-reliable, more expensive than spot, and up to 1-minute resolution with airspeed, heading and ground speed.
>
> YELLOWBRICK TRACKING
> Popular with yachting, etc.
> Incredible interface and API.
> https://www.ybtracking.com
>
> SPOT (CRAP)
> Spot devices are completely useless for enjoyable sailplane tracking. In fact, I argue that SPOT does more damage to the goal of making sailplane tracking interesting than good. Spot devices are intended for the hiker moving at 1-2 mph along the earth's surface. They have not innovated their solution in over ten years. I prefer to refer to Spot as the "anti-interesting sailplane tracking device" and feel Spot must be eradicated from this discussion ASAP and at all costs. Spot devices are "eh" for emergency purposes, but even that statement is a stretch. We need to "be better than Spot" as a sport in general. I was pleased to hear that Spot is raising their prices 50% and that robbery has irritated many of you recently. Hopefully, this will inspire some to consider switching to the newer tracking technologies. Spot is simply not worthy of being included in any further conversation regarding the goal of impressive tracking.
>
> NETWORKED FLARM RADARS
> Highly popular in Europe (and even parts of Canada)
> High performance.
> Requires the (up to) $2000 Flarm device :-(
> http://live.glidernet.org (See European coverage)
>
> OTHER TECHNOLOGIES
> ???
>
> Flame away. Especially you anti-technology clowns. I'm ready for you ;-) ...
>
> Sean
There are many folks looking to (re)solve this issue. Look at the HG and PG communities. There are a number of solutions from Europe. The common denominator is smart phone based. Low barrier to entry.
Check out https://airtribune.com/
It used by many folks and competitions. In fact the CIVL, division of FAI, has chosen them to be the tracking solution and starting in 2018 for HG/PG Cat 1 and 2 events will automatically produce the IGC used for scoring with loggers as backup if needed. BTW CIVL also hired Naviter (SeeYou) to modify SeeYou competition for their rules and will standardize on that software for scoring so they can get out of the software business.
The SSA in 2016 budgeted $25K for contest sanction fees revenue. Where does that revenue go? Is this a good use of the monies?
Sounds like a simple business case could made for what you are proposing.
Jim White[_3_]
April 5th 17, 08:55 AM
Sean, I would argue for more work on Flarm.
Flarm should be mandatory for competitions and the receivers are very cheap
- Raspberry PI plus a $10 TV receiver. Perhaps $60 in all. You need a
network of receivers in the task area but I'll bet you can recruit computer
enthusiasts all over the US to provide this.
We use it for tracking, IGC logging, in flight safety, retrieves, MIAs,
navigation, tug and glider launch logging, and even for demonstrating to
Nimbys that we adhere to airspace and noise abatement rules.
The resulting data is freely available on the net for programmers to
develop great interfaces available in browsers and smart TVs.
This is truly a technological breakthrough for Soaring as we know it.
The SSA needs to ask this question. "Would this feature increase excitement in our sport?" The answer is clearly YES. It is time for an investment.
The sport needs a boost, this is it.
Sean Fidler
April 5th 17, 03:05 PM
Another interesting company in the sat/mobile tracking space: https://www.v2track.com
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 1:51:56 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I would like to propose that the SSA <snip> continues doing the fine job of keeping the FAA away.
Tracking gadgetry is not the SSA's business. Those that want it need to build it or buy it themselves. Not have it funded by the 9,999 SSA members that don't care.
What evidence do you have that suggest there are 9,999 other members? And, this number that you've pulled out of thin air that ALL OF THEM don't want to get with the times! Laughable! You would probably reject funding for windsocks back in the early days of flying, and reject a website development for the SSA in the 1990's.
Dear Green Eggs and Ham, would you rather use the money to invest in circular runways?? Hahaha
Oh and by the way, live tracking INCREASES safety. In the same manner a spot tracker does, except its in real time with a pinpointed location.
I propose the SSA fund this tracking to increase safety. By increasing safety it will help keep the FAA happy.
I've seen too many bad land outs that are a challenge to find when in the forest or elsewhere. We saw it with Brian in Mifflin a while back.
Chris, "Green Eggs and Ham", it could be you next that is in need of a retrieve, or an emergency hanging upside down by your seatbelt straps in a trees after you've had the unthinkable happen. And you would be WISHING you hadn't been a naysayer to the funding.
Sean Fidler
April 5th 17, 03:30 PM
Gregg,
I dislike the idea of allowing the SSA to continue with the same stone age thinking that has created such a "thriving sport" for us here in the USA, at all levels. We are part of stagnant organization that suffers from almost no innovation. We are boring. Should we just continue on that path? Keep doing what the SSA good old boys tell us we should and shut up? Fortunately, this is definitely not a 1:9,999 issue...
As I have previously stated, Australia's "SSA" (the GFA) has a different attitude and has proven value for its members with a tracking investment. Europe, on the other hand, (again previously stated) developed a network of Flarm radar (2k per Flarm but I believe Flarm is mandatory in Europe). Would you prefer mandatory Flarm? The FAA wanted to enforce a mandatory ADSB requirement on gliders, something I strongly supported and continue to support. That was 3-4K but far more powerful as a safety solution.
What does the SSA really provide us? If you think the SSA protects us from the "evil FAA" trying to create a modern safety environment, good luck. The SSA should be in the business of marketing the sport of Soaring (not just to 60 year olds who have been part of it for their entire lives) and in the business of innovation. Improved tracking is one obvious opportunity for for later.
But yes, I'll be shocked if anything happens and fully expect it won't.
John Smith
April 5th 17, 04:21 PM
The SSA involvement in marketing the sport is abysmal. Fleet tracking systems are a mature product where the hardware and monitoring is 150.00 for Battery power unit, 25.00 a month for single user. That was the first place I talked to.
They could also be integrated to display on http://glideport.aero.
If each of the people who actually cared about this did a group buy through the SSA, the cost per unit would drop significantly, and the usage fee would as well.
To click on the SSA website and see an Active moving map of where all the flying is happening in real time would be a huge benefit.
Just my thoughts,
John
If you want mandatory ADSB for sailplanes you are the enemy of soaring. If you want to figure out how to make soaring a TV sport learn from the masters. This is an X-Alps year. Quit your job, move to Austria. Beg Redbull media until they give you a job(or volunteer) working on the X-Alps. They won't put you in charge, it won't be glamorous, but Redbull has figured out how to do what you want. Observe them while fetching their coffee, return home apply the lessons to sailplanes. Easier than building new ASW-19s. Fame and fortune await.
On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 10:30:20 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Gregg,
>
> I dislike the idea of allowing the SSA to continue with the same stone age thinking that has created such a "thriving sport" for us here in the USA, at all levels. We are part of stagnant organization that suffers from almost no innovation. We are boring. Should we just continue on that path? Keep doing what the SSA good old boys tell us we should and shut up? Fortunately, this is definitely not a 1:9,999 issue...
>
> As I have previously stated, Australia's "SSA" (the GFA) has a different attitude and has proven value for its members with a tracking investment. Europe, on the other hand, (again previously stated) developed a network of Flarm radar (2k per Flarm but I believe Flarm is mandatory in Europe). Would you prefer mandatory Flarm? The FAA wanted to enforce a mandatory ADSB requirement on gliders, something I strongly supported and continue to support. That was 3-4K but far more powerful as a safety solution.
>
> What does the SSA really provide us? If you think the SSA protects us from the "evil FAA" trying to create a modern safety environment, good luck. The SSA should be in the business of marketing the sport of Soaring (not just to 60 year olds who have been part of it for their entire lives) and in the business of innovation. Improved tracking is one obvious opportunity for for later.
>
> But yes, I'll be shocked if anything happens and fully expect it won't.
Why do you say SSA does not have a live tracking map?
You can click on a map on the SSA homepage and see where all the flying gliders are located worldwide. The only caveat is that the pilot flying the glider must use a tracking device or download the FREE phone app. To think that someone one will not use a free app will suddenly pay $150 plus subscription is crazy talk.
Sean had the opportunity to use 3 second tracking for free at his latest SGP but said he couldn't figure the app out. The other pilots got theirs working.
As a volunteer that has poured my heart and soul into providing a constant push for better tracking and free technical help to our members, it is pretty discouraging to be beat up on this way. I provided tech support for the SGP as did Pedja. Pedja developed our platform free of charge and provides free server time to us
All the member is required to do is download the app to their phone.
Sean advocates a system that uses dedicated boxes in each plane. Such a system excludes club fliers and those which choose not to compete in sanctioned contests. I advocate a system that is available to all glider pilots worldwide 24 hours a day.
Again, being told that SSA doesn't provide Tracking or that our Tracking is crap is pretty discouraging and makes me want to walk away. I don't see why every time Sean has an idea he has to tear down someone else. I can say that in person Sean is a fine gentleman and an asset to the sport. So someone must be stealing his RAS credentials.
Lane
John Smith
April 5th 17, 06:05 PM
Lane,
Not trying to start a war, I apologize if I've offended you or your teams work. I see the potential for the tracking and I'd love to direct more people to the site to stream the live feeds. Each time I've gone on the SSA web site the tracking doesn't seem to work. I can click on a section of the map that is displaying a number in a upside down tear drop, and it pulls up that person, and nothing else happens. It loads a map that doesn't move, gauges that don't move and just a list of turn points. shrug. That's as recent as a few minutes ago. I have not found the Tracking Cell Phone App and I just checked Google Play. Which is why I looked up vehicle tracking.
I'll allow for me being a moron unable to use modern technology. ;)
If I upload a IGC file to the AERO website, I can replay the file, which is awesome while I learn the sport.
John
You can go directly to "GlidePort.Aero" and become a registered user. This will allow an "info" tab which explains most of the features. To see animation you must click the "play" button in the bottom right of the map screen. You can animate in real time or speed the action up as much as 15x I believe. Of course you'll have to slide the time cursor back to playback at a faster speed as the fast forward doesn't make the actual glider fly 1500 knots!
Myself and Pedja have written how to articles in Soaring but I don't know the months off hand. For the app, iPhone uses Glide Track. Im afraid to state the droid app off the Top of my head but I'm sure you can google Sailplane tracking in the App Store.
I agree we all want effort free Tracking live and in technicolor. I have people call sometimes asking why thier glider isn't showing up. It turns out they fly a 1-26 with a ball vario and no tracking device what so ever.
Come on guys. You have to put a little effort in to get some results! NBC is not going to climb in our gliders and provide live TV coverage of whatever flight you might be interested in at the moment. We have come a long way in four years and have a ways to go. But I can guarantee you that if you want to have Tracking you yourself will have to invest an hour or so learning the system. My parents call me terribly upset that their email icon has disappeared. It's usually a few inches away from the usual spot. Those type of frustrations I can not solve.
Lane
Droid app is IGCdroid.
There is a small one time fee for this app but you can try it for free.
Lane
On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 12:31:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Droid app is IGCdroid.
>
> There is a small one time fee for this app but you can try it for free.
>
> Lane
Am I the only one to suspect that our "multiple personalities man" Sean has split again? In addition to recruiting "Wilbur" to promote his position it's now "John Smith" who has been hired on an as-needed basis. This is all a bit too obvious and does not help your cause, my friend(s). Please grow up and spare us all the charade. And no, life tracking is not a priority for me to want the SSA to spend money on.
Herb
The insanity of it all! If I've taken time to respond to three people who are actually one with three screen names I'm going to bury my head in my hands. None of us have time for such. Once again I'm deleting my RAS link. It just drives me crazy!!!
Those of us who are in this sport for relaxing fun just meet each other at the pub and dream of JS3's and such.
Lane
Sean Fidler
April 5th 17, 07:43 PM
Lane, please don't get me wrong, I think Glideport.aero is AWESOME! That said it probably needs some improvement. I think the SSA should be funding that and providing more value to its customers. Sadly, it's just not being used and this is due to the hardware.
Our issue is that the smartphone apps have reliability challenges and that the mobile network carrier limitations leave us significant holes in coverage, especially out west and/or higher altitude. The position of the phone in the glider is an issue as are quarks with various devices, etc. Even Florida last week, over the swamp, getting the mobile trackers to work well was a challenge. Yes, my Glidetrack app (iOS) still won't work and I have no idea why. I was able to help others, but mine was kaput.
I believe that the SSA has a golden opportunity (and responsibility) to do more for its members (see Gliding Federation Australia & other countries) in terms of tracking than they are doing now. So far, the SSA tracking story has been mainly Pedja and Lane's effort. It's been one of the best values of my SSA membership to be honest. But the SSA itself has not really put any real skin in the game (I don't believe Pedja or Lane are compensated). Perhaps I am mistaken. The SSA tends to follow the path of least resistance and zero cost when it comes to vision. See SSA website. Whatever the answer, the SSA needs to continue to invest in improving tracking.
To provide its members real value, the SSA should be making serious efforts to negotiate a service deal with Garmin/InReach. Better yet, the SSA could contract Pedja and Lane to build 500 Glideport.aero mobile tracker units, custom designed for our specific needs.. In either case, I fully believe Glideport.aero is a great display framework and works extremely well. But it all needs regular care and feeding, enhancement and real investment (skin). Nothing is free.
So, my concern is not Glideport.aero. My concern is that no existing tracker product which currently feeds Glideport.aero (Spot, InReach, mobile app, Flarm, others) 'tics all the boxes' and some come with moderately high ($40 per month) service/data costs. I'm also concerned about adoption. Most SSA contest managers don't even bother to load their daily tasks into Glideport.aero.
My goal (sadly, this should be the SSAs goal) is to find a consistent, reliable, simple to use, and affordable tracker for the entire SSA membership which is high fidelity enough to be enjoyable to follow on Glideport.aero. Contests, clubs, cross country flyers, etc.
Thanks Lane and Pedja for all you do and have done for Glideport.aero. I'm advocating for much more support, attention and investment in your great platform and ending the neglect that I feel your great platform is currently receiving.
Frank Whiteley
April 5th 17, 07:59 PM
On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 11:50:58 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 12:31:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Droid app is IGCdroid.
> >
> > There is a small one time fee for this app but you can try it for free.
> >
> > Lane
>
> Am I the only one to suspect that our "multiple personalities man" Sean has split again? In addition to recruiting "Wilbur" to promote his position it's now "John Smith" who has been hired on an as-needed basis. This is all a bit too obvious and does not help your cause, my friend(s). Please grow up and spare us all the charade. And no, life tracking is not a priority for me to want the SSA to spend money on.
> Herb
Herb,
No, John Smith is a current SSA member, not a figment nor nom de plume.
Frank Whiteley
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
April 5th 17, 08:09 PM
On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 07:30:19 -0700, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Europe, on the other hand, (again previously stated)
> developed a network of Flarm radar (2k per Flarm
>
FLARM Radar is nothing like that price. Its little more than a
RaspberryPi, cheap software radio, antenna, cabinet (if you're feeling
fancy) and some FOSS software. Typical range, even with a low-powered
nonPowerFLARM, can be up to 50 miles depending on how good the antenna is
and where its mounted.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Sean Fidler
April 5th 17, 08:33 PM
Martin, I was referring to the obvious requirement for each "tracked" US glider to contain a nearly $2000 USD powerFlarm device, not the cost of the Flarm radar antenna. The folks here in the US are often quite sensitive to that cost and feel that Flarm leeching is a suitable means of winning competitions. Yes, really.
http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_core1.
I have a question for you. Is Flarm "required" in Europe or optional? If so, what are the penalties for non-compliance? If not unanimous, what European countries require Flarm, and what countries do not? Thx.
Sean
Benedict Smith
April 5th 17, 08:53 PM
At 14:30 05 April 2017, Sean Fidler wrote:
>Gregg,
>
>Eu=
>rope, on the other hand, (again previously stated) developed a network of
>F=
>larm radar (2k per Flarm but I believe Flarm is mandatory in Europe).
>Woul=
>d you prefer mandatory Flarm? The FAA wanted to enforce a mandatory
ADSB
>r=
>equirement on gliders, something I strongly supported and continue to
>suppo=
>rt. That was 3-4K but far more powerful as a safety solution.
Thankfully that is only Europe and then only in some parts, probably very
sensible if you fly in the Alps! Luckily in the UK it is not mandatory but
it is
highly recommended, as it uses an open unregulated radio band it can never
be made compulsory or even be approved for ATC use as it is too insecure
and open to spoofing.
Things could have been different if we had been foolish enough to become
part of Europe, but luckily we had more sense!
Ben.
Nb the FLARM radar network is an amateur run and funded project (OGN)
completely separate from FLARM itself.
Benedict Smith
April 5th 17, 09:12 PM
Sean
Have a look at the OGN wiki, there you will find details of the OGN
tracker,
the basic one can be built for around £20 (30US) and can be tracked in
exactly the same way a FLARM can, (same frequency and compatible position
and identity encoding) they work well and I have 2 in the room with me at
the moment, a single lithium cell runs them self contained for 10-20hours.
They don't provide any collision avoidance but if all you want is tracking
they
are fine, they can also log your flight to an optional SD card and be
fitted with
a barometric module for increased altitude accuracy (and work as a non
compensated vario).
Ben
At 19:33 05 April 2017, Sean Fidler wrote:
>Martin, I was referring to the obvious requirement for each "tracked" US
>gl=
>ider to contain a nearly $2000 USD powerFlarm device, not the cost of the
>F=
>larm radar antenna. The folks here in the US are often quite sensitive
to
>=
>that cost and feel that Flarm leeching is a suitable means of winning
>compe=
>titions. Yes, really.
>
>http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_core1.
>
>I have a question for you. Is Flarm "required" in Europe or optional?
If
>=
>so, what are the penalties for non-compliance? If not unanimous, what
>Euro=
>pean countries require Flarm, and what countries do not? Thx.
>
>Sean
>
>
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
April 5th 17, 10:42 PM
On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 12:33:38 -0700, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Martin, I was referring to the obvious requirement for each "tracked" US
> glider to contain a nearly $2000 USD powerFlarm device, not the cost of
> the Flarm radar antenna. The folks here in the US are often quite
> sensitive to that cost and feel that Flarm leeching is a suitable means
> of winning competitions. Yes, really.
>
OK, I misunderstood you. To me a FLARM is typically an LX RedBox, which
sells here for £864 (say $1000), so a little over half the price of a
PowerFLARM Core.
> I have a question for you. Is Flarm "required" in Europe or optional?
>
I think that depends on where you are: I believe its required in the
Alps, but then there the Rescue helicopters and (probably) most GA
aircraft will also be carrying it.
> If so, what are the penalties for non-compliance?
>
Not getting a launch?
> If not unanimous, what European countries require Flarm, and what
> countries do not? Thx.
>
AFAIK its not required anywhere else - at least I haven't seen anything
about it being required equipment anywhere else.
The density of gliders in the air on a good day in some places, and here
I'd include southern UK, is quite high. Since a large majority of them
will be carrying FLARM, it follows that being without it in our fairly
cloudy conditions is not clever. Another clue to the extent of UK takeup
is that all our club gliders, our tugs and our SF-25 TMG are FLARM
equipped.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
I'm the developer of IGCDroid.
I would love to create a hybrid tracker system based on GlidePort.aero and my IGCDroid app. Such a system could use cell when it can and satellite when it must. Hopefully this would keep satellite usage (eg service costs) to a minimum.
A hybrid system would give you detailed IGC traces when it can and up to date positions via satellite when cell coverage fails.
Would pilots use this?
Does anybody know of a suitable satellite modem?
Alan
Phil Plane
April 6th 17, 12:57 AM
You are missing one very important point. Different people want different things, they have different requirements.
If you want a tracking system and you don't always operate in an area with good cell coverage, you need a satellite based system. So some people won't be be able to use a cheap cell based system. With a little effort you can get Spot providing 2.5 minute tracking delivered direct to your server. Presumably the other systems can do something similar. Even the basic ten minute tracking makes a big difference when you start searching for a missing glider.
If you always fly in an area that has cell coverage you have many good options. Phone apps, fleet tracking systems, etc. Low cost and fast update are possible.
Flarm/ADSB tracking is doable in flat areas with plenty of Base stations, but you really need a good group of technical people who are prepared to put time and money into setting up the network.
Sean Fidler
April 6th 17, 01:50 AM
Of course a dual channel system (mobile/sat) would be very attractive. I'm not sure how the sat service plans would work unless somehow the mobile app could upload the track data (when needed) via the sat data plan (inReach/Garmin) via a wireless connection. I would definitely be interested for the future North American Sailplane Grand Prix.
This start up is already working on a similar product: https://www.v2track..com/
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 10:51:56 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I would like to propose that the SSA consider providing its valued members with a far more comprehensive and well-adopted tracking solution (higher performance, more reliable hardware, negotiated member discounts, etc.). Tracking should not just for the benefit of contest pilots; tracking includes benefits for club operations & instruction, recreational pilots, cross country pilots, record pilots, badge pilots & competition pilots of all types.. The SSA (and the sport of soaring in North America in general) desperately needs a more reliable, more affordable, more social, and more enjoyable tracking solution. Right now, the challenge is clearly the hardware and the service plan required to drive it. The SSA can, on behalf of its 10,000 members, is in an excellent position to organize, negotiate, promote and deliver a far better solution. The potential benifits are profound. I feel improved tracking should be part of the fee's that we all pay as members of the SSA and to attend SSA sanctioned contests and events. I'm not necessarily talking about a 100% free solution, but perhaps it could be free. We certainly should be working hard to understand what is possible and improve the current status quo.
>
> For example, the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA) provides EXACTLY this benefit for their members. The GFA procured and supports 70 GFA owned "LiveTrack24 tracker devices" which go to every Australian contest in a custom Pelican case.
>
> There is considerable upside to tracking in regards to promoting, sharing and enjoying our fantastic, visually appealing, relatively affordable, and environmentally friendly sport. Tracking is not just about contests or contests pilots (preempting the highly predictable "you rich guys" attack soon to follow this post). Tracking is about sharing the sport of soaring with those stuck on the ground and making it highly social (fun, exciting, compelling, attractive). From the 14-year-old kid sharing his training flights with his friends on Facebook to Gordon Bettenger's or Daniel Sahzen's next record flight being shared with the world live, tracking is a key element to maximizing our sports exposure and generating maximum interest.
>
> We currently have a very good beta/framework solution with Glideport.aero, but it is simply not complete. Hardware/Service plans (reliability, price etc.) are not solved. Sadly, and predictably, our tracking interface is VERY poorly adopted. Even for contests!
>
> Below are some potential tracking technology options (just to get the conversation started):
>
> GLIDEPORT.AERO
> GP.aero is the SSA's current tracking display solution. Thanks VERY much Pedja and Lane Bush.
> Glideport.aero "COTS" mobile trackers may become available soon (2 demo units rumored, Pedja, PLEASE!!!!).
> These devices will cost roughly $250 per unit and need a mobile data account.
> Glideport.aero supports mobile device apps (IGCDroid - Android & GlideTrack - iOS), InReach (and Spot, but see my comments below).
>
> LIVETRACK24 (http://www.livetrack24.com/services/index#services2)
> Gliding Federation Australia (Australian SSA) owns 70 and provides them to all Australian contests for tracking as a perk of membership.
> This solution was employed at the recent WGC. Very successful. No mobile application to deal with. A simple, 3x2x1 inch device with an ON/OFF button and light. That's it Turn it on, and it works (TOAW). TOAW is the hope/goal with Glideport.aero trackers above. Does it need to be any more complicated?
>
> INREACH/GARMIN TRACKING
> Satellite based, ultra-reliable, more expensive than spot, and up to 1-minute resolution with airspeed, heading and ground speed.
>
> YELLOWBRICK TRACKING
> Popular with yachting, etc.
> Incredible interface and API.
> https://www.ybtracking.com
>
> SPOT (CRAP)
> Spot devices are completely useless for enjoyable sailplane tracking. In fact, I argue that SPOT does more damage to the goal of making sailplane tracking interesting than good. Spot devices are intended for the hiker moving at 1-2 mph along the earth's surface. They have not innovated their solution in over ten years. I prefer to refer to Spot as the "anti-interesting sailplane tracking device" and feel Spot must be eradicated from this discussion ASAP and at all costs. Spot devices are "eh" for emergency purposes, but even that statement is a stretch. We need to "be better than Spot" as a sport in general. I was pleased to hear that Spot is raising their prices 50% and that robbery has irritated many of you recently. Hopefully, this will inspire some to consider switching to the newer tracking technologies. Spot is simply not worthy of being included in any further conversation regarding the goal of impressive tracking.
>
> NETWORKED FLARM RADARS
> Highly popular in Europe (and even parts of Canada)
> High performance.
> Requires the (up to) $2000 Flarm device :-(
> http://live.glidernet.org (See European coverage)
>
> OTHER TECHNOLOGIES
> ???
>
> Flame away. Especially you anti-technology clowns. I'm ready for you ;-) ...
>
> Sean
Well, I argue that YOU are doing a disservice to live sailplane tracking! We should be encouraging all cross country glider pilots to carry a live tracking device of ANY type. The more information the better. The worst situation is if you belittle even one pilot to hold off on carrying a tracking device because it doesn't meet YOUR standards.
I have been brow-beating pilots flying out of Ely, NV that they MUST carry some sort of tracking device. A survivable landout in the middle of NV could end up being fatal.
Tom
Sean Fidler
April 6th 17, 01:53 PM
Safety and live tracking are two very separate issues. I would be careful about confusing them...
On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 1:59:18 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 11:50:58 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 12:31:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > Droid app is IGCdroid.
> > >
> > > There is a small one time fee for this app but you can try it for free.
> > >
> > > Lane
> >
> > Am I the only one to suspect that our "multiple personalities man" Sean has split again? In addition to recruiting "Wilbur" to promote his position it's now "John Smith" who has been hired on an as-needed basis. This is all a bit too obvious and does not help your cause, my friend(s). Please grow up and spare us all the charade. And no, life tracking is not a priority for me to want the SSA to spend money on.
> > Herb
>
> Herb,
>
> No, John Smith is a current SSA member, not a figment nor nom de plume.
>
> Frank Whiteley
Thanks Frank and my apologies to John Smith.
Frank Whiteley
April 6th 17, 04:14 PM
On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 6:54:02 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Safety and live tracking are two very separate issues. I would be careful about confusing them...
Live tracking may serve both safety and entertainment, and perhaps cheating or teamwork, depending on the rules.
Sean Fidler
April 6th 17, 04:37 PM
Fortunately we still have FAI contests and rules, and fun.
John Smith
April 7th 17, 12:50 AM
> Thanks Frank and my apologies to John Smith.
No worries, I had to show my drivers lisc. to my wife when we first met.
I haven't been around for years figuring out all the players in this community.
As far as I can tell, the Gliderport.aero works for me to upload a file and replay it. I was't aware there was a cell phone tracking option, nothing came up under SSA. I'm in SoCal so cell coverage is quite extensive. I've just purchased my first plane (Russian AC-4C) and have been outfitting it (transponder, S100, Flarm). it would be nice if the wife and other could track me poking holes in the sky.
John
This is a topic which always kind of surprises me when I read or talk about it. Usually I think it is just me giving more importance to something most pilots think is nice but not critical. I have used or use every means to get tracked.
I have both IGC Droid and In-Reach running on a (2 minutes interval). It works so well now. For me is is very important that my wife feel engaged in my passion - she likes to know where I am, how high and the barograph . I work way too much have so little free time that if she didn't come to the airport I would only get to fly half as much as I do - to sit for hours without knowing where I am , how I am doing or be engaged in the flight, would just be way to boring.
Let's face it - Soaring for people who sit on the ground is not interesting/fun.
If we want to double participation in Soaring get your wife/girl friend/relative engaged - the fastest way to do that is to include non pilots or curious pilots to take a look and watch "what is possible"
Soaring is just more fun for me, when I can include my wife, kids and friends in the next crazy flight I am going to attempt. Just maybe rather than focusing in on the kid or pilots we think is out there to recruit - we need to make sure the kid who is our relative or the friend looking for an interesting thing to do, can watch us fly in real time.
Why keep this Beautiful endeavor to ourselves.
Just my newbie $.02
WH
John Smith
April 7th 17, 04:07 PM
On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 3:27:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm the developer of IGCDroid.
>
> I would love to create a hybrid tracker system based on GlidePort.aero and my IGCDroid app. Such a system could use cell when it can and satellite when it must. Hopefully this would keep satellite usage (eg service costs) to a minimum.
>
> A hybrid system would give you detailed IGC traces when it can and up to date positions via satellite when cell coverage fails.
>
> Would pilots use this?
>
> Does anybody know of a suitable satellite modem?
>
> Alan
Alan,
Thanks, I've downloaded and Purchased the App. I'll be looking forward to using it.
John
Dan Marotta
April 7th 17, 04:58 PM
Why spend so much for tracking? If you keep your cell phone turned on,
the NSA knows exactly where you are. Just have your wife file a FOIA
(Freedom of Information Act) request to find out where you are. Note:
The latency may be more than you'd normally expect. :-P
On 4/7/2017 6:12 AM, wrote:
> This is a topic which always kind of surprises me when I read or talk about it. Usually I think it is just me giving more importance to something most pilots think is nice but not critical. I have used or use every means to get tracked.
>
> I have both IGC Droid and In-Reach running on a (2 minutes interval). It works so well now. For me is is very important that my wife feel engaged in my passion - she likes to know where I am, how high and the barograph . I work way too much have so little free time that if she didn't come to the airport I would only get to fly half as much as I do - to sit for hours without knowing where I am , how I am doing or be engaged in the flight, would just be way to boring.
>
> Let's face it - Soaring for people who sit on the ground is not interesting/fun.
>
> If we want to double participation in Soaring get your wife/girl friend/relative engaged - the fastest way to do that is to include non pilots or curious pilots to take a look and watch "what is possible"
>
> Soaring is just more fun for me, when I can include my wife, kids and friends in the next crazy flight I am going to attempt. Just maybe rather than focusing in on the kid or pilots we think is out there to recruit - we need to make sure the kid who is our relative or the friend looking for an interesting thing to do, can watch us fly in real time.
>
> Why keep this Beautiful endeavor to ourselves.
>
> Just my newbie $.02
>
> WH
--
Dan, 5J
John, feel free to email me if you need help with anything. Contact details are on Google Play store.
Personally I would like to see GlidePort.aero combine InReach/Spot traces with cell traces into a single flight trace. Users would see a single trace with as much tracking detail as available. Satellite data would replace by cell data as it is received. Much like how zooming in google earth shows a fuzzy image then fills in crisp details as they are downloaded.
The step beyond that is a hybrid system I proposed earlier. A user watching GlidePort.aero would see exactly the same thing, BUT the satellite modem would be smart enough to know it doesn't need to send data in an area with good cell coverage. That MIGHT lower satellite data costs.
Alan
John Smith
April 8th 17, 12:39 AM
On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 3:18:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> John, feel free to email me if you need help with anything. Contact details are on Google Play store.
>
> Personally I would like to see GlidePort.aero combine InReach/Spot traces with cell traces into a single flight trace. Users would see a single trace with as much tracking detail as available. Satellite data would replace by cell data as it is received. Much like how zooming in google earth shows a fuzzy image then fills in crisp details as they are downloaded.
>
> The step beyond that is a hybrid system I proposed earlier. A user watching GlidePort.aero would see exactly the same thing, BUT the satellite modem would be smart enough to know it doesn't need to send data in an area with good cell coverage. That MIGHT lower satellite data costs.
>
> Alan
Alan,
So what is needed to make the hybred system?
John
P.S. I have no marketable skills, so my value is limited to useless questions and/or suggestions.
kiwiindenver
April 8th 17, 02:31 AM
On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 11:39:46 AM UTC+12, John Smith wrote:
> On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 3:18:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > John, feel free to email me if you need help with anything. Contact details are on Google Play store.
> >
> > Personally I would like to see GlidePort.aero combine InReach/Spot traces with cell traces into a single flight trace. Users would see a single trace with as much tracking detail as available. Satellite data would replace by cell data as it is received. Much like how zooming in google earth shows a fuzzy image then fills in crisp details as they are downloaded.
> >
> > The step beyond that is a hybrid system I proposed earlier. A user watching GlidePort.aero would see exactly the same thing, BUT the satellite modem would be smart enough to know it doesn't need to send data in an area with good cell coverage. That MIGHT lower satellite data costs.
> >
> > Alan
>
> Alan,
>
> So what is needed to make the hybred system?
>
> John
>
> P.S. I have no marketable skills, so my value is limited to useless questions and/or suggestions.
A productized version of this http://www.rock7mobile.com/products-rockblock-9603 connected to your phone.
AND a bunch of software, both in Android(iPhone) and in the Cloud.
Sean Fidler
April 8th 17, 02:39 PM
I'm currently talking to 3 firms about COTS hybrid systems (very expensive).. I would love Alan or Pedja to find the time work on this. I have two demo units on-route for testing this summer. The third unit was over 10k just for the hardware alone. The other two are far more reasonable.
Alan your mention of a combined or integrated trace in the viewer is ideal. This dual track result (mobile app/InReach) was a complaint at the SGP.
Sean
I have in the past seen something like this done successfully - but t is rare. (getting a bunch of individuals to all do something)
I belive what it would take to be done right - is the SSA do a fundraiser to purchase 60 units (whatever works) and then supply them to the contests with the contest making turning them on a requirement.
The unit maker may see it as a win - maybe if people tried thier product they would discover the value.
The contest would win by getting people to watch and maybe even get sponsorship opportunities.
the family and friends would win by getting to see their pilot fly.
if left up to the individuals - contest tracking will always suck and be missing most gliders, except at high end contests like the worlds or maybe the Grand Prix races.
I think tracking is awesome/critical - and can't understand why anyone flying XC doesn't desire a good track with all the data - even outside contest tasks. how we all go off into the abyss with no one keeping trak fo where we are, just does not make sense to anyone outside the Soaring community - and that is where new pilots come from :)
It was understandable before tracking was possible - now it borders on negligent :) - we don't use cameras any more to prove where we went - it is time to embrace some new stuff - you can couch it in safety if that makes you feel better. But getting tracking done right is importnat to our sport.
My $.02
WH
Jim White[_3_]
April 9th 17, 09:00 AM
Today in Europe we have good flying weather. There will be a lot of gliders
airborne.
Europe is pretty much the same size as the USA. Take a look at what has
been achieved with Flarm tracking here:
Take a look at spot the gliders around 1400 GMT on any good day and you
will see the extent of the coverage across Europe including hilly places
like the alps. http://live.glidernet.org/#c=20.32052,-22.77151&z=3
With a $10 high gain aerial on the tracking unit you might be surprised how
few would give good coverage. If a comp sets tasks up to say 600k O/R then
it might be possible to get full coverage in all directions with just 9 or
10 units. In the UK and across Europe these are set up by enthusiasts
because they like fiddling with such things. The Raspberry PI code is
freely available and automatically uploads the results to the net for
public consumption.
Or go here http://ognrange.onglide.com/# to see the coverage that has been
achieved in Europe so far. I’ll bet there is a wider coverage possible in
the US than you think.
Or go here to see what log book features we use at Booker
http://ktrax.kisstech.ch/logbook/ enter EGTB and see what we did yesterday
Jim
Sean Fidler
April 9th 17, 04:37 PM
Great idea WH!!!
On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 12:02:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I have in the past seen something like this done successfully - but t is rare. (getting a bunch of individuals to all do something)
>
> I belive what it would take to be done right - is the SSA do a fundraiser to purchase 60 units (whatever works) and then supply them to the contests with the contest making turning them on a requirement.
>
> The unit maker may see it as a win - maybe if people tried thier product they would discover the value.
> The contest would win by getting people to watch and maybe even get sponsorship opportunities.
> the family and friends would win by getting to see their pilot fly.
>
> if left up to the individuals - contest tracking will always suck and be missing most gliders, except at high end contests like the worlds or maybe the Grand Prix races.
>
> I think tracking is awesome/critical - and can't understand why anyone flying XC doesn't desire a good track with all the data - even outside contest tasks. how we all go off into the abyss with no one keeping trak fo where we are, just does not make sense to anyone outside the Soaring community - and that is where new pilots come from :)
>
> It was understandable before tracking was possible - now it borders on negligent :) - we don't use cameras any more to prove where we went - it is time to embrace some new stuff - you can couch it in safety if that makes you feel better. But getting tracking done right is importnat to our sport.
>
> My $.02
>
> WH
Sean Fidler
April 9th 17, 04:39 PM
Well said Jim. I think we need to start encouraging US clubs and individual pilots to start building Flarm Antennas for this purpose. Again, another SSA opportunity for innovation...just following the Euro blueprint...
Sean
On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 4:15:07 AM UTC-4, Jim White wrote:
> Today in Europe we have good flying weather. There will be a lot of gliders
> airborne.
>
> Europe is pretty much the same size as the USA. Take a look at what has
> been achieved with Flarm tracking here:
>
> Take a look at spot the gliders around 1400 GMT on any good day and you
> will see the extent of the coverage across Europe including hilly places
> like the alps. http://live.glidernet.org/#c=20.32052,-22.77151&z=3
>
> With a $10 high gain aerial on the tracking unit you might be surprised how
> few would give good coverage. If a comp sets tasks up to say 600k O/R then
> it might be possible to get full coverage in all directions with just 9 or
> 10 units. In the UK and across Europe these are set up by enthusiasts
> because they like fiddling with such things. The Raspberry PI code is
> freely available and automatically uploads the results to the net for
> public consumption.
>
> Or go here http://ognrange.onglide.com/# to see the coverage that has been
> achieved in Europe so far. I’ll bet there is a wider coverage possible in
> the US than you think.
>
> Or go here to see what log book features we use at Booker
> http://ktrax.kisstech.ch/logbook/ enter EGTB and see what we did yesterday
>
> Jim
On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 8:39:57 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Well said Jim. I think we need to start encouraging US clubs and individual pilots to start building Flarm Antennas for this purpose. Again, another SSA opportunity for innovation...just following the Euro blueprint...
>
> Sean
>
Before encouraging a Flarm-based tracking system for the US, would it not be a good idea to determine if an adsb-based system would be better?
Sean Fidler
April 10th 17, 12:45 AM
I agree ADSB is a FAR BETTER solution for all of this...but we have to deal with the reality of the US glider population and the narrative that is being driven...
For those of you interested in building a Flarm Radar base stations, it's not that difficult. Check this link out for more info: http://wiki.glidernet.org/links
Sean
Tom BravoMike
April 10th 17, 02:16 AM
> Before encouraging a Flarm-based tracking system for the US, would it not be a good idea to determine if an adsb-based system would be better?
I've been asking this question myself all the time. I keep following the discussion on the subject here on r.a.s. and many other places. While I accept that several low L/D gliders with no electrical system, no radio, and flying basically locally around airports marked on the charts as having glider operations should be left in peace, I don't understand why we are so lax about safety and insist on being invisible in the ADS-B system. The cost? Yes, it's still high at the moment, but the prices go down and will continue to do so as we get closer to the year 2020. Parachutes aren't cheap, either, but most (all?) private glider pilots have them. I saw the prices of modern computer systems from different manufacturers at the last Convention in Greenville, SC: the range of $4-8k caused no scandal or uproar. At this point of time with ADS-B equipped planes swarming around us and growing in number, is it really worth investing time and cash in totally (almost, one-way)separatistic systems? IMHO the answer is NO.
This said, I believe, however, it's worth not to rush and wait these next 2-3 years till the deadline, as there MUST be new systems offered on the market for the light category aircrafts and all kinds of awkward flying object like drones. The choice will certainly not shrink.
I know, I know: this thread is about tracking - but the leap between ADS-B and tracking seems to be a very short one.
Tom BravoMike
Paul Agnew
April 10th 17, 02:43 AM
FWIW - there is already an internet solution that could be the basis for ADS-B tracking. It obviously doesn't show the planes only equipped with Mode-A transponders, but eventually ADS-B will be valuable to our operations. I hope to be able to use this or something similar in the coming years as a basis for general traffic awareness for our Line Chief using a tablet with internet. We have a lot of GA traffic that blasts through our pattern oblivious that they are over an active grass strip at 600'-1000'. If the Line Chief can spot them coming, he can alert anyone in the pattern or preparing to launch. Yes, I'm thinking that far ahead...
https://www.adsbexchange.com/
https://global.adsbexchange.com/VirtualRadar/desktop.html
Paul Agnew
Treasure Coast Soaring Club
Vero Beach, FL (X52)
Sean Fidler
April 11th 17, 05:32 PM
Here is something interesting on the subject of tracking...
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39558952
John Smith
April 12th 17, 07:12 PM
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:32:52 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Here is something interesting on the subject of tracking...
>
> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39558952
That would be very cool to watch a Soaring race in 3D. Just track and plot the planes competing.
From a Growth & Retention standpoint, I wholeheartedly support the idea of the SSA providing trackers to CD's to disperse to contestants at various regional and national gliding competitions. I would also support the lending of these devices to US Team Members (it's always good to have heroes in a sport) and individuals attempting national, continental, or world records. The entertainment and promotional value is well worth the money.
After a quick glance at the thread tonight I would reserve opinion on which route to go or what the SSA should potentially support. I would very much like to add this to the Growth & Retention Committee's agenda for consideration. I also want to explore ideas as to how we can use tracking to promote the sport and generate more interest in contest participation among SSA members. Sean, when you get a chance please bring me up to speed with Glideportaero and the various tracking device options. I like the idea of the SSA delivering its own branded, affordable tracking devices to its members on a subscription basis.
Chris Schrader
Sean Fidler
April 16th 17, 01:49 PM
LiveTrack24 seems to be very popular with many soaring countries. These are the units (70) which were purchased by the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA) (aka Australia's "SSA") for their membership to be used at Australian contests and other soaring events.
These were used at the Benalla WGC in January and worked EXTREMELY well.
Here is a LIVE example (HAPPENING NOW) of LibeTrack24 tracking in South Africa of LiveTrack24 for their ongoing FAI SGP.
It is clear to me that most pilots are FAR TO LAZY to use mobile tracker apps (which require a bit of finesse). These units are simple. Turn them on by pressing a button. Charge them at night.
http://www.livetrack24.com/tasks/3592
Sean
Dan Marotta
April 16th 17, 05:36 PM
.... Or really just don't care.
On 4/16/2017 6:49 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
> It is clear to me that most pilots are FAR TO LAZY to use mobile tracker apps (which require a bit of finesse). These units are simple. Turn them on by pressing a button. Charge them at night.
--
Dan, 5J
Tony[_5_]
April 16th 17, 05:49 PM
That's strange Sean, for IGCDroid I just turn it on before takeoff. I charge my cell phone every night. I've had it on for almost every soaring flight I've.made, broadcasting to the SSA tracking page, for the last two years
"... Or really just don't care."
I think this is very true - most pilots these days don't even have a crew when they go to contests. Often when they fly XC (out of site of the airport, the people on the ground don't care where their pilots have gone.
I chose to believe it is that they just don't know any better/ haven't experienced Soaring track when they are good.
My wife and our good friends wife, who are very interested my where-abouts when flying attract a crowd when they are sitting on their tablets seeing where we are and how high.
I think is is one of those things we are too lazy/unfamiliar with to not understand the benefit to the Sport and our won clubs. It is not attained with out effort and a push.
I believe the push needs to come from the SSA. If we had a year or two where most flights where tracked. If XC flights at a club level where tracked so other member could see where the more advanced pilots where going it would inspire more XC flying and more retention.
my $.02
WH
Dan Marotta
April 17th 17, 03:53 PM
I'm sorry, but you misunderstood my meaning. What I meant was: My
soaring is for me and I don't care if you or anyone else knows where I
am or not. My wife, a solo hiker knows and understands this, as well.
I suspect I'm not alone in this.
I'm all for those who want to share their experience with others. My
initial response was to the typical insult (too lazy) made by the one
who insults all who don't agree with his way of doing things.
On 4/17/2017 6:49 AM, wrote:
> "... Or really just don't care."
>
> I think this is very true - most pilots these days don't even have a crew when they go to contests. Often when they fly XC (out of site of the airport, the people on the ground don't care where their pilots have gone.
>
> I chose to believe it is that they just don't know any better/ haven't experienced Soaring track when they are good.
>
> My wife and our good friends wife, who are very interested my where-abouts when flying attract a crowd when they are sitting on their tablets seeing where we are and how high.
>
> I think is is one of those things we are too lazy/unfamiliar with to not understand the benefit to the Sport and our won clubs. It is not attained with out effort and a push.
>
> I believe the push needs to come from the SSA. If we had a year or two where most flights where tracked. If XC flights at a club level where tracked so other member could see where the more advanced pilots where going it would inspire more XC flying and more retention.
>
> my $.02
>
> WH
>
--
Dan, 5J
Sean Fidler
April 17th 17, 03:59 PM
I suggest some careful observation this week during the SSA's "Perry contest" in order to experience how interesting and compelling the SSA tracking is in general. Someone is at least adding the tasks into Glideport.aero (this means that the tasks display on the Glideport.aero tracking map, providing context to the viewer). Task info being added into Glideport.aero at SSA contests is actually very rare. Watching tracks without the context of the task is painfully boring. As an example, tasks were not added to Glideport.aero for the Seniors contest. The real question is, from a home viewer perspective, do enough pilots trackers work in Perry, with enough detail, to make actually following the tasks interesting? This will depend on what trackers are being used (Spot, InReach, or mobile and at what refresh rate), and by whom (attention to detail from the pilot to ensure the device is working properly during the entire contest). Hence my previous post on the need for a standard SSA tracking device that is simple to use, highly detailed in its tracking product, affordable, and highly reliable.
Another issue is that 98% of US tasks are TAT (usually very wide areas). These tasks are not the most exciting follow via tracking, to say the least.
I think some of you are misunderstanding my previous post. My point was that SMART PHONE TRACKING APPS are not 100% reliable, or easy to use and can (per recent experience, often do) stop working in flight. An improved level of overall performance in our current SSA tracking viewer "investment" (Glideport.aero) would be realized if all pilots (of all technical backgrounds) were provided, or had affordable access too, the same reliable, ultra simple tracker hardware and we're not "on their own" to decide what to use. Dedicated tracker units (provided by the SSA, perhaps at a bulk price or for free) are what I was referring to in being simple to use, not smart phones.
Dedicated tracker units (such as LiveTrack24) have only one button (on/off switch). All you need to do is keep them charged and turn them on before flight. From that point forward they "simply work!" They are much smaller devices than smart phones, and therefore are much easier to mount properly up above the canopy rail (in order to have clear line of sight to the ground) which is essential with mobile based trackers. They also don't have touch screens to accidentally touch, etc. They also don't require programming or configuration with a Glideport.aero account, etc. Mobile apps require several steps and a working knowledge of some smart phone basics. This can be confusing to those not used to smart phones. Finally, and most frustratingly, mobile apps can stop tracking for numerous reasons (battery life, pilot accidentally hits screen and turns app off, not configured properly, forget to turn tracking app on, other apps interfere, etc., etc.). The iPhone app "GlideTrack" is a beta app, has never been updated and is notorious for such problems, for example.
In Australia, for example, their "SSA" (the GFA) has procured 70 dedicated LiveTrack24 units for their GFA members to use during all Australian contests and events.
LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN...IN ALL CAPS...
"IN AUSTRALIA (their SSA) BOUGHT AND MAINTAINS 70 LIVETRACK24 TRACKING UNITS FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP AS PART OF THEIR ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTION TO THE SSA (GFA)."
The GFA model is an excellent model for us here in the USA to consider (SSA). Their LiveTrack24 units are maintained by the GFA (SSA). They travel in a custom case from event to event and have designated managers supporting them during those events (pilots sign them out/in, manager volunteers ensure they working properly, support the pilots, etc). This solution was impressive and avoids many challenges currently faced here in the USA with the SSAs current tracking experiment. The GFA trackers were used to absolute perfection at the recent Benalla WGC. The result was some of the best tracking that we have seen during any Gliding event to date, worldwide, ever!
We could have this level of reliability, performance, simplicity and increased adoption and enjoyment here in the USA as well if we would just get out of our own way and do something meaningful...for once............sigh.
I'm already getting the typical emails explaining how this is too expensive, too hard, etc. I just shake my head. See above in CAPS. See Australia. It's not hard. It's simple.
In further support of my statements, here is a full library of the Benalla WGC tracking (using LiveTrack24 trackers owned by the GFA (Australia's SSA)) for all WGC competition days (another great FAI SGP innovation) your review: http://www.wgc2017.com/live!/tracking.aspx?contestID=25898
Sean
Al McNamara[_3_]
April 17th 17, 05:09 PM
As a couple of others have said, in Europe, the Flarm Net system has
essentially set itself up, at no additional cost to pilots. In the UK, we
have gone from nothing, to almost 100% coverage in a couple of years, as
people saw the utility of the system, and just expanded it.
In the UK it is entirely a voluntary system, with both individuals and
clubs able to make their own decisions on whether to install a Flarm,
whether to register it, or whether to carry on as they are. While I've no
real evidence base, I think the majority of private owners have installed
Flarm, but with a lower proportion registering (unregistered flarm shows on
the network, but with no a/c details). Many clubs have also chosen to
install Flarm in club a/c, which both improves safety and allows them to
track the fleet. On the back of this, more enthusiasts have developed
software that allows flight logging (see Jim White's post) and live
competition scoring and tracking (onglide). In the UK it is now normal to
see crews and visitors following the comp either on a tablet or smartphone
or on screen provided by the organisers.
All of this has happened almost by accident. It started with an enthusiast
building a receiver and publishing the results on sites like this. Others
decided to replicate, and the network grew. While many of the receivers
are now based at gliding sites, most are still built and maintained by
volunteers. There may be some challenges in the USA due to geography.
Better solutions might come up, but this is available now, and given the
very low costs, you have virtually nothing to lose. Until you try, you
won't know. If just a couple of those in favour build a receiver, and tell
others it's there, you might be surprised by the results.
Sean...on this topic you are dead right; I hope you never give up calling for better tracking. After following a SGP event...especially the 2016 SGP season VII final in SA...or the recent WGC/Australia, SSA's efforts are embarrassing. SSA contest reporting has changed little since the late 60's; they continue to struggle just keep the "on site" informed. Yes, certainly there are issues of time, money and expertise. However, IMO, the biggest hurdle is our sanctioning body leaders do not acknowledge the need to promote and inform those off-site interested. First establish the commitment then deal with the issues.
To the naysayers, what other sport contests are "secret" and not "newsed" to the interested as quickly as possible?
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 1:51:56 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I would like to propose that the SSA consider providing its valued members with a far more comprehensive and well-adopted tracking solution (higher performance, more reliable hardware, negotiated member discounts, etc.). Tracking should not just for the benefit of contest pilots; tracking includes benefits for club operations & instruction, recreational pilots, cross country pilots, record pilots, badge pilots & competition pilots of all types.. The SSA (and the sport of soaring in North America in general) desperately needs a more reliable, more affordable, more social, and more enjoyable tracking solution. Right now, the challenge is clearly the hardware and the service plan required to drive it. The SSA can, on behalf of its 10,000 members, is in an excellent position to organize, negotiate, promote and deliver a far better solution. The potential benifits are profound. I feel improved tracking should be part of the fee's that we all pay as members of the SSA and to attend SSA sanctioned contests and events. I'm not necessarily talking about a 100% free solution, but perhaps it could be free. We certainly should be working hard to understand what is possible and improve the current status quo.
>
> For example, the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA) provides EXACTLY this benefit for their members. The GFA procured and supports 70 GFA owned "LiveTrack24 tracker devices" which go to every Australian contest in a custom Pelican case.
>
> There is considerable upside to tracking in regards to promoting, sharing and enjoying our fantastic, visually appealing, relatively affordable, and environmentally friendly sport. Tracking is not just about contests or contests pilots (preempting the highly predictable "you rich guys" attack soon to follow this post). Tracking is about sharing the sport of soaring with those stuck on the ground and making it highly social (fun, exciting, compelling, attractive). From the 14-year-old kid sharing his training flights with his friends on Facebook to Gordon Bettenger's or Daniel Sahzen's next record flight being shared with the world live, tracking is a key element to maximizing our sports exposure and generating maximum interest.
>
> We currently have a very good beta/framework solution with Glideport.aero, but it is simply not complete. Hardware/Service plans (reliability, price etc.) are not solved. Sadly, and predictably, our tracking interface is VERY poorly adopted. Even for contests!
>
> Below are some potential tracking technology options (just to get the conversation started):
>
> GLIDEPORT.AERO
> GP.aero is the SSA's current tracking display solution. Thanks VERY much Pedja and Lane Bush.
> Glideport.aero "COTS" mobile trackers may become available soon (2 demo units rumored, Pedja, PLEASE!!!!).
> These devices will cost roughly $250 per unit and need a mobile data account.
> Glideport.aero supports mobile device apps (IGCDroid - Android & GlideTrack - iOS), InReach (and Spot, but see my comments below).
>
> LIVETRACK24 (http://www.livetrack24.com/services/index#services2)
> Gliding Federation Australia (Australian SSA) owns 70 and provides them to all Australian contests for tracking as a perk of membership.
> This solution was employed at the recent WGC. Very successful. No mobile application to deal with. A simple, 3x2x1 inch device with an ON/OFF button and light. That's it Turn it on, and it works (TOAW). TOAW is the hope/goal with Glideport.aero trackers above. Does it need to be any more complicated?
>
> INREACH/GARMIN TRACKING
> Satellite based, ultra-reliable, more expensive than spot, and up to 1-minute resolution with airspeed, heading and ground speed.
>
> YELLOWBRICK TRACKING
> Popular with yachting, etc.
> Incredible interface and API.
> https://www.ybtracking.com
>
> SPOT (CRAP)
> Spot devices are completely useless for enjoyable sailplane tracking. In fact, I argue that SPOT does more damage to the goal of making sailplane tracking interesting than good. Spot devices are intended for the hiker moving at 1-2 mph along the earth's surface. They have not innovated their solution in over ten years. I prefer to refer to Spot as the "anti-interesting sailplane tracking device" and feel Spot must be eradicated from this discussion ASAP and at all costs. Spot devices are "eh" for emergency purposes, but even that statement is a stretch. We need to "be better than Spot" as a sport in general. I was pleased to hear that Spot is raising their prices 50% and that robbery has irritated many of you recently. Hopefully, this will inspire some to consider switching to the newer tracking technologies. Spot is simply not worthy of being included in any further conversation regarding the goal of impressive tracking.
>
> NETWORKED FLARM RADARS
> Highly popular in Europe (and even parts of Canada)
> High performance.
> Requires the (up to) $2000 Flarm device :-(
> http://live.glidernet.org (See European coverage)
>
> OTHER TECHNOLOGIES
> ???
>
> Flame away. Especially you anti-technology clowns. I'm ready for you ;-) ...
>
> Sean
Ron Gleason
April 17th 17, 08:14 PM
On Monday, 17 April 2017 08:59:56 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I suggest some careful observation this week during the SSA's "Perry contest" in order to experience how interesting and compelling the SSA tracking is in general. Someone is at least adding the tasks into Glideport.aero (this means that the tasks display on the Glideport.aero tracking map, providing context to the viewer). Task info being added into Glideport.aero at SSA contests is actually very rare. Watching tracks without the context of the task is painfully boring. As an example, tasks were not added to Glideport.aero for the Seniors contest. The real question is, from a home viewer perspective, do enough pilots trackers work in Perry, with enough detail, to make actually following the tasks interesting? This will depend on what trackers are being used (Spot, InReach, or mobile and at what refresh rate), and by whom (attention to detail from the pilot to ensure the device is working properly during the entire contest). Hence my previous post on the need for a standard SSA tracking device that is simple to use, highly detailed in its tracking product, affordable, and highly reliable.
>
> Another issue is that 98% of US tasks are TAT (usually very wide areas). These tasks are not the most exciting follow via tracking, to say the least.
Sean Fidler
April 17th 17, 09:48 PM
True, but even with that extra Guy Byers effort to make it "easy" for contest organizers to migrate tasks directly, the reality is that tasks are almost never active in Glideport.aero for SSA contests. Just look at Perry right now. And honestly, entering a task doesn't really have to be integrated.. Entering a task into GP.aero is simple and takes under a minute. Less with a few days of practice. Obviously, see adoption and usage statistics, it was probably not worth the hassle to build this integration.
The key problem (in my view) remains the hodge-podge of various trackers (or no tracker at all) and complete lack of leadership and standards. Here is my report from today:
"---SSA Tracking Report Day 1 Perry---
...............And there off!.............I think? Where are they going? We have no idea. No tasks. Zzzzzzz. And, moving on....in roughly thirty seconds to something useful...
1) No Tasks are programmed into Glideport.aero, so we no idea where they are going.
2) Only about 10% of the gliders have altitude information (Mobile App or InReach). These tracks provide some value at least.
3) 60% of the sailplanes are using Spot trackers (awful). Many of those are updating far less than every 10 minutes.
4) 25%-40% of the competitors appear to have no tracking device, whatsoever....
5) Nico Bennett track is showing up in Perry's 18m class, even though he is flying a long flight in Florida (actually much more interesting than watching Perry as he has a good high quality continuous Mobil track, GO NICO!)
Dismal."
Obviously, todays Perry "tracking experience" was not very exciting, so I stopped almost immediately. But here are some screen shots for each class for reference.
Like 🇦🇺 Australia's SSA (GFA) has shown us, the SSA desperately needs a standardized, unified tracking device for all SSA contest pilots. At present, all the effort that has been put into Glideport.aero is being COMPLETELY WASTED. The SSA needs to require the contest organizers (just as they are required to meet certain guidelines) to take the two minutes necessary to enter the tasks into GP.aero. At the end of the day, successful, well adopted and exciting tracking will come down to the SSAs vision and leadership. So far, the current results are no surprise.
Here are some "riveting" screenshots of the SSAs "state of the art" tracking system from today's Perry Contest on GlidePort.aero (which is an amazing tool...if...the competitors and organizers feed it with good data)...
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGWBC59GlHo6c
Ron Gleason
April 17th 17, 10:24 PM
On Monday, 17 April 2017 14:48:32 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> True, but even with that extra Guy Byers effort to make it "easy" for contest organizers to migrate tasks directly, the reality is that tasks are almost never active in Glideport.aero for SSA contests. Just look at Perry right now. And honestly, entering a task doesn't really have to be integrated. Entering a task into GP.aero is simple and takes under a minute. Less with a few days of practice. Obviously, see adoption and usage statistics, it was probably not worth the hassle to build this integration.
>
> The key problem (in my view) remains the hodge-podge of various trackers (or no tracker at all) and complete lack of leadership and standards. Here is my report from today:
>
> "---SSA Tracking Report Day 1 Perry---
>
> ..............And there off!.............I think? Where are they going? We have no idea. No tasks. Zzzzzzz. And, moving on....in roughly thirty seconds to something useful...
>
> 1) No Tasks are programmed into Glideport.aero, so we no idea where they are going.
> 2) Only about 10% of the gliders have altitude information (Mobile App or InReach). These tracks provide some value at least.
> 3) 60% of the sailplanes are using Spot trackers (awful). Many of those are updating far less than every 10 minutes.
> 4) 25%-40% of the competitors appear to have no tracking device, whatsoever...
> 5) Nico Bennett track is showing up in Perry's 18m class, even though he is flying a long flight in Florida (actually much more interesting than watching Perry as he has a good high quality continuous Mobil track, GO NICO!)
>
> Dismal."
>
> Obviously, todays Perry "tracking experience" was not very exciting, so I stopped almost immediately. But here are some screen shots for each class for reference.
>
> Like 🇦🇺 Australia's SSA (GFA) has shown us, the SSA desperately needs a standardized, unified tracking device for all SSA contest pilots. At present, all the effort that has been put into Glideport.aero is being COMPLETELY WASTED. The SSA needs to require the contest organizers (just as they are required to meet certain guidelines) to take the two minutes necessary to enter the tasks into GP.aero. At the end of the day, successful, well adopted and exciting tracking will come down to the SSAs vision and leadership. So far, the current results are no surprise.
>
> Here are some "riveting" screenshots of the SSAs "state of the art" tracking system from today's Perry Contest on GlidePort.aero (which is an amazing tool...if...the competitors and organizers feed it with good data)...
>
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0tGWBC59GlHo6c
The integration with WINSCORE IMHO was the way to go as the tasks have to be entered for scoring purposes anyway.
Your statement of 'The SSA needs to require the contest organizers (just as they are required to meet certain guidelines) ...' is hilarious at best. The SSA cannot require this type of action, at best they can encourage. What is the SSA going to do, fire the people, fine them or invalidate the results of the contest? We are fortunate that folks are willing and able to organize and run events and the SSA should not place any more requirements on them then what is absolutely necessary.
Most organizers are concentrated on the logistics of the day, getting everyone off and on the airport safely and keeping equipment in great shape for safety purposes. After that anything else is a bonus.
If you look at the R5 Regional FB page you will see pictures that show their priorities are geared more towards social events and providing a great experience for folks that are attended and paying the entry fee then providing desk chained folks tasks on the tracking map.
If you really want to see this happen put a proposal together for the SSA BOD and ask them to spend part of the ~$22K per year they collect in contest sanctioning fees on tracking hardware and what is needed to ship them around. I am sure if you are willing to coordinator for the first couple of years that would really help.
Sean Fidler
April 18th 17, 03:35 PM
The SSA already requires its sanctioned contest organizers do several things in order to be sanctioned. Thing such as writing a pilots kit, securing a CD, submitting a budget, buying Costello event insurance, following SSA rules and guidelines, etc. Trust me, this is not a very high bar for an organizer to get over.
These SSA standards are similar to FAI events standards. The FAI also requires certain standards to be met. Same for FAI SGP.
So the quality of the event is generally governed by the organizing authority.
Moving forward, SSA contest organizers should be required to take the two (measly) minutes each day to enter the tasks into Glideport.aero per some new SSA contest guideline/requirement. Or required them to simply use the integration to push the task out of winscore. Or the SSA should designate someone enter tasks for all contests remotely (organizer is required to send that person an email each day with the task). SOMETHING! ANYTHING! It's simply not being done. It needs to be done consistently. Otherwise all the effort in developing Glideport.aero is a complete waste. This requirement would be a wonderful improvement for an SSA organization which (thru its apathetic attitude towards technology) has created (for itself) a sport with an average (and increasing steadily) age of the upper sixties (per almost zero focus on youth for decades now) and is therefore so obscure to outsiders that it's "sport" (are all TATs even a sport or is it more of a pastime, like golf?) is almost impossible to follow, even for people who know exactly what they are looking for, even in today's modern world (well, that is to say modern outside the SSA)...
If the idea of requiring the SSAs tracking investment (Glideport.aero) to be used (properly) by contest organizers hilarious to you, I'm not sure what to say. For me, what is hilarious (and sad) is how ridiculously low the contest organizer bar is being allowed to be. What's hilarious and sad is how poorly the SSA represents itself outside of the the SSA insiders club.
The SSA, IN SO MANY WAYS, needs to raise itself off the floor and to have some respect for itself and it's brand (outside of the good old boy network that controls it).
The first step in improving Glideport.aero tracking for SSA contests is to REQUIRE contest organizers enter the tasks into Glideport.aero. The second is that pilots ensure that their trackers are operating properly. The third is for the general group to actually give a **** and stop walking around in three day old clothes (so to speak).
Clean yourself up SSA! Have some respect for yourself. Care enough to ask the organizers to use your own tracking investment.
Sean Fidler
April 18th 17, 03:50 PM
The SSA already requires prospective contest organizers to do several things in order to be sanctioned. Things such as writing a pilots kit, securing a CD, submitting a budget, buying Costello event insurance, following SSA rules and various other guidelines, etc. Trust me, this is not a very high bar for an organizer to get over. If they fail to do so the SSA will, I assume, refuse to sanction the event. For example: if an organizer used FAI rules (and ditched SSA rules), the event would no longer be sanctioned and an emergency SSA BOD meeting would be immediately called to order to deal with said blasphemy ... ;-)
So, SSA requirements exist. The FAI also requires certain standards to be met. Same for FAI SGP.
So the quality of the event is generally governed and maintained by the organizing authority thru these requirements.
Today, the SSA tracking investment is a miserable failure. In large part due to it not being managed by the contest organizers.
Moving forward, SSA contest organizers should be required to take the two (measly) minutes each day to enter the tasks into Glideport.aero per some new SSA contest guideline/requirement. Or required them to simply use the integration to push the task out of winscore. Or the SSA should designate someone enter tasks for all contests remotely (organizer is required to send that person an email each day with the task). SOMETHING! ANYTHING! It's simply not being done. It needs to be done consistently. Otherwise all the effort in developing Glideport.aero is a complete waste.
Adding this requirement would be a wonderful improvement for an SSA organization which (thru its apathetic attitude towards technology) has created (for itself) a sport with an average (and increasing steadily) age of the upper sixties (per almost zero focus on youth for decades now) and is therefore so obscure to outsiders that it's "sport" (are all TATs contests even a sport? Or are SSA TAT "socials" more of a pastime, like golf?) is almost impossible to follow, even for people who know exactly what they are looking for, even in today's modern world (well, that is to say modern outside the SSA)...
If the idea of requiring the SSAs tracking investment (Glideport.aero) to be used (properly) by contest organizers hilarious to you, I'm not sure what I can say to you. For me, what is hilarious (and sad) is how ridiculously low the contest organizer bar is being allowed to be. What's hilarious and sad is how poorly the SSA represents itself outside of the the SSA insiders club. What is hilarious is how poorly the SSAs tracking system is turning out to be (people, process, technology).
The SSA, IN SO MANY WAYS, needs to raise itself off the floor and to have some respect for itself and it's brand (a focus outside of the anti technology good old boy network that controls it).
The first step in improving Glideport.aero tracking for SSA contests is to REQUIRE contest organizers enter the tasks into Glideport.aero. I'm asking for two minutes day one, 30 seconds a day after). The second is that pilots ensure that their trackers are operating properly. The third is for the general group to actually give a **** and stop walking around in three day old clothes (so to speak).
Clean yourself up SSA! Have some respect for yourself and your investments.. Care enough to ask the organizers to use your own tracking investment.
LEADERSHIP. Where is it?
I should not have to submit a proposal. I'm not an officer of the SSA. These are simple table stakes. Are we inept or are we not?
Next time an Australian race with trackers is on see if you can get nonflying friends or coworkers to sit through it. Let us know how it goes.
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> The SSA already requires prospective contest organizers to do several things in order to be sanctioned. Things such as writing a pilots kit, securing a CD, submitting a budget, buying Costello event insurance, following SSA rules and various other guidelines, etc. Trust me, this is not a very high bar for an organizer to get over. If they fail to do so the SSA will, I assume, refuse to sanction the event. For example: if an organizer used FAI rules (and ditched SSA rules), the event would no longer be sanctioned and an emergency SSA BOD meeting would be immediately called to order to deal with said blasphemy ... ;-)
>
> So, SSA requirements exist. The FAI also requires certain standards to be met. Same for FAI SGP.
>
> So the quality of the event is generally governed and maintained by the organizing authority thru these requirements.
>
> Today, the SSA tracking investment is a miserable failure. In large part due to it not being managed by the contest organizers.
>
> Moving forward, SSA contest organizers should be required to take the two (measly) minutes each day to enter the tasks into Glideport.aero per some new SSA contest guideline/requirement. Or required them to simply use the integration to push the task out of winscore. Or the SSA should designate someone enter tasks for all contests remotely (organizer is required to send that person an email each day with the task). SOMETHING! ANYTHING! It's simply not being done. It needs to be done consistently. Otherwise all the effort in developing Glideport.aero is a complete waste.
>
> Adding this requirement would be a wonderful improvement for an SSA organization which (thru its apathetic attitude towards technology) has created (for itself) a sport with an average (and increasing steadily) age of the upper sixties (per almost zero focus on youth for decades now) and is therefore so obscure to outsiders that it's "sport" (are all TATs contests even a sport? Or are SSA TAT "socials" more of a pastime, like golf?) is almost impossible to follow, even for people who know exactly what they are looking for, even in today's modern world (well, that is to say modern outside the SSA)...
>
> If the idea of requiring the SSAs tracking investment (Glideport.aero) to be used (properly) by contest organizers hilarious to you, I'm not sure what I can say to you. For me, what is hilarious (and sad) is how ridiculously low the contest organizer bar is being allowed to be. What's hilarious and sad is how poorly the SSA represents itself outside of the the SSA insiders club. What is hilarious is how poorly the SSAs tracking system is turning out to be (people, process, technology).
>
> The SSA, IN SO MANY WAYS, needs to raise itself off the floor and to have some respect for itself and it's brand (a focus outside of the anti technology good old boy network that controls it).
>
> The first step in improving Glideport.aero tracking for SSA contests is to REQUIRE contest organizers enter the tasks into Glideport.aero. I'm asking for two minutes day one, 30 seconds a day after). The second is that pilots ensure that their trackers are operating properly. The third is for the general group to actually give a **** and stop walking around in three day old clothes (so to speak).
>
> Clean yourself up SSA! Have some respect for yourself and your investments. Care enough to ask the organizers to use your own tracking investment.
>
> LEADERSHIP. Where is it?
>
> I should not have to submit a proposal. I'm not an officer of the SSA. These are simple table stakes. Are we inept or are we not?
Tango Eight
April 18th 17, 09:09 PM
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Today, the SSA tracking investment is a miserable failure. In large part due to it not being managed by the contest organizers.
Maybe you misunderstand the purpose of the tracker.
I think there is a lot more interest on seeing at a glance who's still flying, who's landed (& where) than watching bug races. The really excellent thing about the tracker as is is that it takes takes one link that works anywhere you happen to be. Very cool & well done Lane and Pedja.
best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> The SSA already requires prospective contest organizers to do several things in order to be sanctioned. Things such as writing a pilots kit, securing a CD, submitting a budget, buying Costello event insurance, following SSA rules and various other guidelines, etc. Trust me, this is not a very high bar for an organizer to get over. If they fail to do so the SSA will, I assume, refuse to sanction the event. For example: if an organizer used FAI rules (and ditched SSA rules), the event would no longer be sanctioned and an emergency SSA BOD meeting would be immediately called to order to deal with said blasphemy ... ;-)
Sean,
In just your latest, admirably brief (relatively speaking--I'm not in a strong position myself on this point) post, you managed to insult or disparage the following 11 groups of people. And I could have missed a few. Some could be instrumental in helping you accomplish what you wish to do. I've certainly had plenty of frustrations regarding rules and policies over the years but I have learned that talking down to people isn't a reliable way to win them over. You make some good points. I don't agree with all of them but I think your objective is to effect change, not achieve uniformity of opinion. Just a suggestion. :)
1. SSA Board of Directors.
2. Contest organizers.
3. Anyone who doesn't agree that Turn Area Tasks (TATs) should be eliminated completely.
4. Anyone who flies contests partly because of the social aspect.
5. Golfers.
6. SSA members over 65.
7. SSA leadership.
8. Anyone associated with the current SSA tracking system.
9. Anyone who doesn't agree that the future of the SSA turns on technology.
10. Any SSA member who walks around in 3-day-old clothes (whatever that means).
11. Anyone who doesn't agree that watching glider races on an electronic tracking system is a fascinating way to spend time for pilots and non-pilots alike.
Chip Bearden
RAS is rapidly becoming "The World According to King Sean."
I am getting tired of it. Sean competes (and pretty well, so kudos.) But he consistently disparages everybody that does not compete, insults anyone with a different opinion than his and insists that "The SSA" use its limited resources to satisfy his demand that "Real-Time Tracking" be required at all contests. Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?
His statement that, without real-time tracking at contests, the effort that went into development of Glideport.aero was "wasted" is an insult to anybody (including myself) that uses Glideport.aero to check on the status of some pilots I know are flying, crews and loved ones that are concerned with the whereabouts of some of our friends during the flying day. This is especially important as the day winds down and there hasn't been any radio contact for a while.
And he needs to realize that his assertion that the development of Glideport.aero was "wasted" is an especially egregious insult to the actual developers of the system. Sean may think it was developed solely as a contest aid, but somehow I doubt it was. In the real world, (i.e. non-competition) it is a valuable tool and convenience for the majority of pilots and crews who use it during daily (i.e., non-competition) flying.
Tom BravoMike
April 19th 17, 04:21 AM
"Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
Tom BravoMike
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
April 19th 17, 07:40 AM
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
>
> Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
>
> One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
>
> I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
>
> My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
>
> Tom BravoMike
A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
Andy
9B
Ron Gleason
April 19th 17, 02:34 PM
On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 00:40:46 UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
> >
> > Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
> >
> > One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
> >
> > I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
> >
> > My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
> >
> > Tom BravoMike
>
> A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
>
> It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
>
> Andy
> 9B
Here is another tracking option http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39637974
Ron Gleason
April 20th 17, 10:58 PM
On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 07:34:48 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 00:40:46 UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
> > >
> > > Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
> > >
> > > One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
> > >
> > > I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
> > >
> > > My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
> > >
> > > Tom BravoMike
> >
> > A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
> >
> > It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
> >
> > Andy
> > 9B
> Here is another tracking option http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39637974
AT the Perry contest glider BZ, John MIttel, has the best tracking. It is updated frequently, detailed (3-5 second interval?) and displays altitude.
Any one know what setup John is using?
Ron Gleason
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 20th 17, 11:07 PM
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:58:12 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 07:34:48 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 00:40:46 UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > > "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
> > > >
> > > > One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
> > > >
> > > > I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
> > > >
> > > > My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
> > > >
> > > > Tom BravoMike
> > >
> > > A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
> > >
> > > It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > > 9B
> > Here is another tracking option http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39637974
>
> AT the Perry contest glider BZ, John MIttel, has the best tracking. It is updated frequently, detailed (3-5 second interval?) and displays altitude..
>
> Any one know what setup John is using?
>
> Ron Gleason
IGCDroid on a Samsung.
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 20th 17, 11:09 PM
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:58:12 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 07:34:48 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 00:40:46 UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > > "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
> > > >
> > > > One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
> > > >
> > > > I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
> > > >
> > > > My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
> > > >
> > > > Tom BravoMike
> > >
> > > A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
> > >
> > > It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > > 9B
> > Here is another tracking option http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39637974
>
> AT the Perry contest glider BZ, John MIttel, has the best tracking. It is updated frequently, detailed (3-5 second interval?) and displays altitude..
>
> Any one know what setup John is using?
>
> Ron Gleason
Hit enter too soon. I believe BZ is using IGCDroid on a Samsung.
Sean Fidler
April 21st 17, 12:00 AM
I actually helped BZ buy his Android device at Ionia for SGP last summer (nearby Walmart). I believe he ultimately paid $50 for his android smart phone (pre-paid ready) and $25 for the 2GB data plan. Anyone can, of course, do this themselves. The deals are always available and the phones always average $50, $100 for a top of the line pre-paid smart phone. For some reason, BZ's unit works really, really well. Maybe he could share the exact model with us here somehow. BZ seems to always have great range and tracks.
iPhones and the iPhone "app" seem to be a little less capable/reliable in general. But this is the problem with our current Glideport.aero "Hodge-podge" of devices approach. There are so many variables to break down the ultimate goal. We could all really benefit from a dedicated, reliable, standard tracking device (see Aussie LiveTrack24 devices, etc) and or far better "app" quality. The iphone app is a beta from 2-3 years ago. Its probably due for an update. Maybe we could do a 'GoFundMe' for Pedja to do this? I'm not sure how he is being compensated by the SSA for his time with developing Glideport.aero, but he certainly deserved to be compensated for all of this effort.
The Android app has had some more recent updates.
Spot trackers are still useless for interesting tracking. Now that is "technology" that should actually be banned from the SSA tracking system.
And still no tasks are being configured for Perry. Amazing.
On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 6:09:40 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:58:12 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 07:34:48 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 00:40:46 UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > > > "Fine, but why does the 98% of the SSA membership have to fund this for the benefit of the 2% that fly contests?"
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry, but using the same logics, why do 99.999999% of Americans have to fund the outer space research for the benefit of the 0.000001% that actually get launched from Cape Canaveral?
> > > > >
> > > > > One of the answers is: Because it drives progress in so many areas of the modern technological civilization. In a similar way competitions that are broadcast live (almost) have the potential to attract some new fans to the art of soaring, and also help bring together people from the global village, who share the same passion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I, on my part, support Sean's idea about the logging equipment provided by the SSA to competitors and declare that I would accept an increase of the annual membership fee to achieve that goal, if necessary. How about saving some funds by going totally digital with the "Soaring" magazine?
> > > > >
> > > > > My understanding of Sean's message is: Let's move on! Let's not give up! Something can be done - let's try it! (((or, if you prefer, "Let's make (soaring in) America great again!)))
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom BravoMike
> > > >
> > > > A few years back a handful of us felt strongly enough about the importance of PowerFLARM in contests that we bought several dozen rental units.. The same idea could apply here. It would be pretty straightforward for those who support this to put together a group of like-minded pilots and soaring benefactors to buy the gear and make it available either for free or for a small fee to pilots who wish to use it in contests. They could even contribute the money to cover the shipping.
> > > >
> > > > It's been done successfully before. I tend to prefer market solutions over socialist ones.
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > > 9B
> > > Here is another tracking option http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39637974
> >
> > AT the Perry contest glider BZ, John MIttel, has the best tracking. It is updated frequently, detailed (3-5 second interval?) and displays altitude.
> >
> > Any one know what setup John is using?
> >
> > Ron Gleason
>
> Hit enter too soon. I believe BZ is using IGCDroid on a Samsung.
Bruce Hoult
April 21st 17, 01:39 PM
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:00:27 AM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
> iPhones and the iPhone "app" seem to be a little less capable/reliable in general.
iPhones have features that try to prevent apps from unnecessarily using CPU, communications etc in the background and draining your battery quickly.
But there are ways for an app to tell the OS "No, I actually do need to do this, it's not just by accident".
Details at: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/iPhoneOSProgrammingGuide/BackgroundExecution/BackgroundExecution.html
See, in particular:
- Implementing Long-Running Tasks
- Apps that keep users informed of their location at all times, such as a navigation app and/or
- Apps that need to download and process new content regularly
Apps that implement these services must declare the services they support and use system frameworks to implement the relevant aspects of those services.
In Xcode 5 and later, you declare the background modes your app supports from the Capabilities tab of your project settings. Enabling the Background Modes option adds the UIBackgroundModes key to your app’s Info.plist file. Selecting one or more checkboxes adds the corresponding background mode values to that key.
More information at: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/LocationAwarenessPG/CoreLocation/CoreLocation..html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009497-CH2-SW1
I'm currently working for Samsung and haven't written iOS code for a few years, but I found this information in about two minutes, so you'd hope any competent iOS developer would be able to as well.
Reading on ...
Deferring Location Updates While Your App Is in the Background
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/LocationAwarenessPG/CoreLocation/CoreLocation.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009497-CH2-SW14
This is interesting. Your app can tell iOS to record the user's movements, but only wake the app after a certain distance has been travelled, or a certain time has elapsed. The OS will then wake your app and give it all the information that was gathered in the meantime.
With suitable tuning you could use this to get frequent updates while the glider is flying at high speed, but less frequent while thermaling in one place. The end result on the map could be as detailed as you want, but with a number of location points arriving at the same time (every 15 or 30 seconds maybe).
Or course a good app should accumulate location fixes if internet connectivity is lost, and then send them all together when there is signal again.
None of this is difficult to do.
Sean Fidler
April 21st 17, 05:08 PM
This is useful and interesting info. Thanks.
The bottom line is that SSA tracking system can only be as good as the quality and detail of the tracking data which it receives (and the overall percentage of properly function trackers, which probably needs to be improved from 5% to a consistent 95%+). Today, Glideport "feature" mostly Spot Sat Trackers (10 min max tracks, no altitude data) and a large number of pilots without any tracker (sat, mobile or Flarm, or ADS-B) at all. Just watch Glideport.aero at any upcoming SSA contest. Watch Perry contest today (now). I'll give $20 to anyone who can prove (video) that they watched today's Perry tasks tracking continuously for more than 20 minutes and enjoyed it. It's just embarrassing. No tasks, low quality tracks, etc. It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be allowable for it it be this way!
Glideport is a highly capable product. Brilliant in fact. It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers. I suspect the motivation to further expand and improve Glideport must be quite low when the overall SSA member adoption is so poor. So we have very low overall adoption and a stagnant tracking system which is not being showcased, enhanced or improved. Typical...
Without a focused leader, without a goal, without infectious passion and enthusiasm, without an exciting marketing plan, without innovation, without news and updates on milestones, without persistence, without steady promotion, without a balanced and determined effort to meet said goal, without the serious drive required to not allow mediocrity or failure, few such things succeed.
If mobile phones are going to be part of the answer (and I'm doubting that is the case at this point), the app developers need to be motivated (and compensated) in order to keep these applications up to date and constantly improving. The android app developer (IGCDroid) gets a few bucks at purchase, I think. He has made some updates and it actually works fairly well. The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee. In return, the app code should be maintained top notch with regular updates, device testing, and even training & support. Perhaps even efforts to innovate (example, integrate with sat device when out of range), etc., or even to build commercially available dedicated on/off simple trackers!
It would be so easy to take this tracking opportunity from a clear failure (complete with crater) to huge, exciting, star of the art, positive success....it just needs stronger, more passionate leadership and a new plan.
Bruce Hoult
April 21st 17, 06:17 PM
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 7:08:18 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
>The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee.
I just downloaded it. Yes, free. Looks to be a extremely simple app, with almost no UI -- the kind of thing you could throw together in a weekend.
The app shows a URL on the settings screen: http://glideport.aero/api
I went to that address hoping to get the specifications of how to write an app to talk to the server, but that page is a 404 (http not found).
....It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers...
Almost seems as though the soaring community at large doesn't track your values. If you are the sole outlier is everyone else still wrong?
Sean Fidler
April 21st 17, 10:11 PM
Bravo!!! The tasks are actually showing up today in Glideport.aero for the tasks at Perry.
Watching it, and replaying it, becomes immediately & dramatically more interesting.
Imagine what else is possible with a little care and feeding…
https://youtu.be/p9P2M5DtdPc
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 12:08:18 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> This is useful and interesting info. Thanks.
>
> The bottom line is that SSA tracking system can only be as good as the quality and detail of the tracking data which it receives (and the overall percentage of properly function trackers, which probably needs to be improved from 5% to a consistent 95%+). Today, Glideport "feature" mostly Spot Sat Trackers (10 min max tracks, no altitude data) and a large number of pilots without any tracker (sat, mobile or Flarm, or ADS-B) at all. Just watch Glideport.aero at any upcoming SSA contest. Watch Perry contest today (now). I'll give $20 to anyone who can prove (video) that they watched today's Perry tasks tracking continuously for more than 20 minutes and enjoyed it. It's just embarrassing. No tasks, low quality tracks, etc. It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be allowable for it it be this way!
>
> Glideport is a highly capable product. Brilliant in fact. It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers. I suspect the motivation to further expand and improve Glideport must be quite low when the overall SSA member adoption is so poor. So we have very low overall adoption and a stagnant tracking system which is not being showcased, enhanced or improved. Typical...
>
> Without a focused leader, without a goal, without infectious passion and enthusiasm, without an exciting marketing plan, without innovation, without news and updates on milestones, without persistence, without steady promotion, without a balanced and determined effort to meet said goal, without the serious drive required to not allow mediocrity or failure, few such things succeed.
>
> If mobile phones are going to be part of the answer (and I'm doubting that is the case at this point), the app developers need to be motivated (and compensated) in order to keep these applications up to date and constantly improving. The android app developer (IGCDroid) gets a few bucks at purchase, I think. He has made some updates and it actually works fairly well. The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee. In return, the app code should be maintained top notch with regular updates, device testing, and even training & support. Perhaps even efforts to innovate (example, integrate with sat device when out of range), etc., or even to build commercially available dedicated on/off simple trackers!
>
> It would be so easy to take this tracking opportunity from a clear failure (complete with crater) to huge, exciting, star of the art, positive success...it just needs stronger, more passionate leadership and a new plan.
Ron Gleason
April 21st 17, 11:15 PM
On Friday, 21 April 2017 15:11:40 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Bravo!!! The tasks are actually showing up today in Glideport.aero for the tasks at Perry.
>
> Watching it, and replaying it, becomes immediately & dramatically more interesting.
>
> Imagine what else is possible with a little care and feeding…
>
> https://youtu.be/p9P2M5DtdPc
>
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 12:08:18 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > This is useful and interesting info. Thanks.
> >
> > The bottom line is that SSA tracking system can only be as good as the quality and detail of the tracking data which it receives (and the overall percentage of properly function trackers, which probably needs to be improved from 5% to a consistent 95%+). Today, Glideport "feature" mostly Spot Sat Trackers (10 min max tracks, no altitude data) and a large number of pilots without any tracker (sat, mobile or Flarm, or ADS-B) at all. Just watch Glideport.aero at any upcoming SSA contest. Watch Perry contest today (now). I'll give $20 to anyone who can prove (video) that they watched today's Perry tasks tracking continuously for more than 20 minutes and enjoyed it. It's just embarrassing. No tasks, low quality tracks, etc. It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be allowable for it it be this way!
> >
> > Glideport is a highly capable product. Brilliant in fact. It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers. I suspect the motivation to further expand and improve Glideport must be quite low when the overall SSA member adoption is so poor. So we have very low overall adoption and a stagnant tracking system which is not being showcased, enhanced or improved. Typical...
> >
> > Without a focused leader, without a goal, without infectious passion and enthusiasm, without an exciting marketing plan, without innovation, without news and updates on milestones, without persistence, without steady promotion, without a balanced and determined effort to meet said goal, without the serious drive required to not allow mediocrity or failure, few such things succeed.
> >
> > If mobile phones are going to be part of the answer (and I'm doubting that is the case at this point), the app developers need to be motivated (and compensated) in order to keep these applications up to date and constantly improving. The android app developer (IGCDroid) gets a few bucks at purchase, I think. He has made some updates and it actually works fairly well. The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee. In return, the app code should be maintained top notch with regular updates, device testing, and even training & support. Perhaps even efforts to innovate (example, integrate with sat device when out of range), etc., or even to build commercially available dedicated on/off simple trackers!
> >
> > It would be so easy to take this tracking opportunity from a clear failure (complete with crater) to huge, exciting, star of the art, positive success...it just needs stronger, more passionate leadership and a new plan.
If you read the updates provided by the contest you will read that a technical issue was resolved by a number of folks to get the tasks displayed. Lots of great efforts being put forth behind the scenes. Thanks to all
Sean Fidler
April 22nd 17, 01:05 AM
We had no need to utilize Winscore (of course) during the SGP USA (you should see the FAI SGP scoring software (browser based), it's UNREAL!). During the SGP, we simply programmed the task into GP.aero manually each morning via a simple interface which Pedja provides contest organizers. Before the FAI SGP USA competition, Pedja needed me to provide him the contestant names, TP files, tracker ID's, etc. After building this list and sending to Pejda, we were ready to go. Each day the task took only 1-2 minutes to enter. No problems. It all worked very nicely although the tracks (from both mobile apps and InReach only) were just not detailed enough.
I had seen task appear in GP.aero during a Perry practice day (roughly one week ago). So it had been working for them earlier. I'm wondering what "technical difficulty" required all this "effort?" That is a real concern. This system should not be complicated or technical for end users. It is critical that the tasks are easy to get into GP.aero. If the Perry gang can't do this, how can we expect a smaller contest to do it? Those smaller events would not have access to all the "technical" help? This all needs to be very simple for those folks too. This all needs to be standard, simple and consistent stuff.
Regardless, we still desperately need better tracking hardware which delivers affordable, highly refreshed and detailed, reliable, easy to use, and VERY fun to watch live tracking for all US events and contests... This is just not the case at current. Not even in sight yet...well over the horizon. Not in Australia of course. They are killing it, and have been for a couple of years now................
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Friday, 21 April 2017 15:11:40 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Bravo!!! The tasks are actually showing up today in Glideport.aero for the tasks at Perry.
> >
> > Watching it, and replaying it, becomes immediately & dramatically more interesting.
> >
> > Imagine what else is possible with a little care and feeding…
> >
> > https://youtu.be/p9P2M5DtdPc
> >
> > On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 12:08:18 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > This is useful and interesting info. Thanks.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is that SSA tracking system can only be as good as the quality and detail of the tracking data which it receives (and the overall percentage of properly function trackers, which probably needs to be improved from 5% to a consistent 95%+). Today, Glideport "feature" mostly Spot Sat Trackers (10 min max tracks, no altitude data) and a large number of pilots without any tracker (sat, mobile or Flarm, or ADS-B) at all. Just watch Glideport.aero at any upcoming SSA contest. Watch Perry contest today (now). I'll give $20 to anyone who can prove (video) that they watched today's Perry tasks tracking continuously for more than 20 minutes and enjoyed it. It's just embarrassing. No tasks, low quality tracks, etc. It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be allowable for it it be this way!
> > >
> > > Glideport is a highly capable product. Brilliant in fact. It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers. I suspect the motivation to further expand and improve Glideport must be quite low when the overall SSA member adoption is so poor. So we have very low overall adoption and a stagnant tracking system which is not being showcased, enhanced or improved. Typical...
> > >
> > > Without a focused leader, without a goal, without infectious passion and enthusiasm, without an exciting marketing plan, without innovation, without news and updates on milestones, without persistence, without steady promotion, without a balanced and determined effort to meet said goal, without the serious drive required to not allow mediocrity or failure, few such things succeed.
> > >
> > > If mobile phones are going to be part of the answer (and I'm doubting that is the case at this point), the app developers need to be motivated (and compensated) in order to keep these applications up to date and constantly improving. The android app developer (IGCDroid) gets a few bucks at purchase, I think. He has made some updates and it actually works fairly well. The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee. In return, the app code should be maintained top notch with regular updates, device testing, and even training & support. Perhaps even efforts to innovate (example, integrate with sat device when out of range), etc., or even to build commercially available dedicated on/off simple trackers!
> > >
> > > It would be so easy to take this tracking opportunity from a clear failure (complete with crater) to huge, exciting, star of the art, positive success...it just needs stronger, more passionate leadership and a new plan.
>
> If you read the updates provided by the contest you will read that a technical issue was resolved by a number of folks to get the tasks displayed. Lots of great efforts being put forth behind the scenes. Thanks to all
JS
April 22nd 17, 05:31 AM
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Friday, 21 April 2017 15:11:40 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Bravo!!! The tasks are actually showing up today in Glideport.aero for the tasks at Perry.
> >
> > Watching it, and replaying it, becomes immediately & dramatically more interesting.
> >
> > Imagine what else is possible with a little care and feeding…
> >
> > https://youtu.be/p9P2M5DtdPc
> >
> > On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 12:08:18 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > This is useful and interesting info. Thanks.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is that SSA tracking system can only be as good as the quality and detail of the tracking data which it receives (and the overall percentage of properly function trackers, which probably needs to be improved from 5% to a consistent 95%+). Today, Glideport "feature" mostly Spot Sat Trackers (10 min max tracks, no altitude data) and a large number of pilots without any tracker (sat, mobile or Flarm, or ADS-B) at all. Just watch Glideport.aero at any upcoming SSA contest. Watch Perry contest today (now). I'll give $20 to anyone who can prove (video) that they watched today's Perry tasks tracking continuously for more than 20 minutes and enjoyed it. It's just embarrassing. No tasks, low quality tracks, etc. It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be allowable for it it be this way!
> > >
> > > Glideport is a highly capable product. Brilliant in fact. It's downfall is that it requires SSA members to care. It is simply being underutilized (aka ignored) both by pilots and contest organizers. I suspect the motivation to further expand and improve Glideport must be quite low when the overall SSA member adoption is so poor. So we have very low overall adoption and a stagnant tracking system which is not being showcased, enhanced or improved. Typical...
> > >
> > > Without a focused leader, without a goal, without infectious passion and enthusiasm, without an exciting marketing plan, without innovation, without news and updates on milestones, without persistence, without steady promotion, without a balanced and determined effort to meet said goal, without the serious drive required to not allow mediocrity or failure, few such things succeed.
> > >
> > > If mobile phones are going to be part of the answer (and I'm doubting that is the case at this point), the app developers need to be motivated (and compensated) in order to keep these applications up to date and constantly improving. The android app developer (IGCDroid) gets a few bucks at purchase, I think. He has made some updates and it actually works fairly well. The iOS app (GlideTrack) is free (I think) but, unsurprisingly, has also not been updated since 2014!!! Can you imagine how much iOS has changed in nearly FOUR YEARS? It simply does not work on my iPhone 7+. These developers should be annually compensated with an annual fee. In return, the app code should be maintained top notch with regular updates, device testing, and even training & support. Perhaps even efforts to innovate (example, integrate with sat device when out of range), etc., or even to build commercially available dedicated on/off simple trackers!
> > >
> > > It would be so easy to take this tracking opportunity from a clear failure (complete with crater) to huge, exciting, star of the art, positive success...it just needs stronger, more passionate leadership and a new plan.
>
> If you read the updates provided by the contest you will read that a technical issue was resolved by a number of folks to get the tasks displayed. Lots of great efforts being put forth behind the scenes. Thanks to all
Just saw Doug Easton and thanked him.
Jim
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.