Newbie seeking glider purchase advice -- II

[Ted Wagner]

Thanks to everyone for the informative feedback.

I did forget to mention my experience level, and it seems to be relevant to
the question. Assuming I've made no errors in my Excel electronic logbook, I
have 137 flights and 35 hrs as of this afternoon, 93 and 23:30 of them solo;
78 in a 2-33A, 18 in a 1-26E, 21 in a G-103A, 16 in a 1-36, and two in an
ASK-21. This weekend I get checked out in the Pilatus B-4 and Genesis-2.
(Just kidding. But they sure are Purdy.)

One place I still need help is the different classes. I've yet to find a
place that lists and describes them (I've even surfed the FAI/IGC
documents). World Class? 15m? Standard class? Unlimited class? Outclassed,
underclassed, late for class? Help!!! (This is where I could use a goodly
stack of Soaring magazine back-issues, I guess.)

Also, I'll be trailer-parking the bird at Turf or Estrella, I'm 5'11", 170
pounds, and able to lift fairly heavy pieces without assistance. (But I
would like something easy to put together.) Again, I'm most interested in
pursuing x-country, and competing as soon as I'm ready.

Thanks again to all,

-ted

[BTIZ]

well.. your not that much of a newbie..

I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall and best
L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..

If you are looking for something to compete in.. what is your price range?

304CZ is very respectable..

BT

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
news:KBqGb.13600$7D3.4419@fed1read02...
> Thanks to everyone for the informative feedback.
>
> I did forget to mention my experience level, and it seems to be relevant
to
> the question. Assuming I've made no errors in my Excel electronic logbook,
I
> have 137 flights and 35 hrs as of this afternoon, 93 and 23:30 of them
solo;
> 78 in a 2-33A, 18 in a 1-26E, 21 in a G-103A, 16 in a 1-36, and two in an
> ASK-21. This weekend I get checked out in the Pilatus B-4 and Genesis-2.
> (Just kidding. But they sure are Purdy.)
>
> One place I still need help is the different classes. I've yet to find a
> place that lists and describes them (I've even surfed the FAI/IGC
> documents). World Class? 15m? Standard class? Unlimited class? Outclassed,
> underclassed, late for class? Help!!! (This is where I could use a goodly
> stack of Soaring magazine back-issues, I guess.)
>
> Also, I'll be trailer-parking the bird at Turf or Estrella, I'm 5'11", 170
> pounds, and able to lift fairly heavy pieces without assistance. (But I
> would like something easy to put together.) Again, I'm most interested in
> pursuing x-country, and competing as soon as I'm ready.
>
> Thanks again to all,
>
> -ted
>
>
>
>

[Udo Rumpf]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:0yrGb.37824$m83.36947@fed1read01...
> well.. your not that much of a newbie..
>
> I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall and
best
> L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..

From where do you get this misleading information?
I have flown the Genesis and I have flown against them,
I can tell you it flies with the best of them in that class.
The sensation of flying is a bit different but is of no
concern regarding safety and handling. I expect a few
of these interesting Gliders to do "even better" in the
near future. Some of the optimization that are being
employed on two of them are very promising.
Regards
Udo

[Ted Wagner]

> well.. your not that much of a newbie..

I started September 21st, and got my private pilot glider license November
19th. I'd say that lands me squarely in the "newbie" class. I have gotten in
a good amount of flying in that time (it helps to prepare the bank account
in advance), but I still feel like I'm barely starting to learn. I imagine
the learning curve will last quite a while.

> I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall and
best
> L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..

Of course I've never flown one, and likely will not for some time, but the
CFIs at Estrella rave about the glider.

> If you are looking for something to compete in.. what is your price range?

Under $25,000. (I'll only buy something new if I'm satisfied that it will
keep a good resell value.)

> 304CZ is very respectable..

Thanks, I'll check it out!

-ted

[Ted Wagner]

> > I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall and
> best L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..

I haven't been able to locate a polar for the Genesis 2 on the 'Net, but
looking at http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/ba/genesis2-glider.htm, there
seems to be a respectable difference between the stall speed (36 knots at
5.6 lbs/sq ft loading) and best L/D (43:1, 56 knots, 6 lbs/sq ft loading).
Is that reasonable?

-ted

[Liam Finley]

Regarding classes, you've got, in the US:

15m class- anything under 15m span.
Standard class- under 15m span and no flaps.
18m class- anything under 18m.
Open class- anything.
Sports class- anything, handicapped, no ballast.
'World Class'- PW-5 only.
'1-26 class'- 1-26 only.

Most people start out in Sports, as you don't need the latest and
greatest to be competetive.

15m and Standard are the most popular. You need big bucks to be
competetive in open. World Class is kind of a joke.


"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message news:<KBqGb.13600$7D3.4419@fed1read02>...
> Thanks to everyone for the informative feedback.
>
> I did forget to mention my experience level, and it seems to be relevant to
> the question. Assuming I've made no errors in my Excel electronic logbook, I
> have 137 flights and 35 hrs as of this afternoon, 93 and 23:30 of them solo;
> 78 in a 2-33A, 18 in a 1-26E, 21 in a G-103A, 16 in a 1-36, and two in an
> ASK-21. This weekend I get checked out in the Pilatus B-4 and Genesis-2.
> (Just kidding. But they sure are Purdy.)
>
> One place I still need help is the different classes. I've yet to find a
> place that lists and describes them (I've even surfed the FAI/IGC
> documents). World Class? 15m? Standard class? Unlimited class? Outclassed,
> underclassed, late for class? Help!!! (This is where I could use a goodly
> stack of Soaring magazine back-issues, I guess.)
>
> Also, I'll be trailer-parking the bird at Turf or Estrella, I'm 5'11", 170
> pounds, and able to lift fairly heavy pieces without assistance. (But I
> would like something easy to put together.) Again, I'm most interested in
> pursuing x-country, and competing as soon as I'm ready.
>
> Thanks again to all,
>
> -ted

[BTIZ]

I've been corrected by others that the G2 has a respectable polar.. funny
it's not viewable on the web.. the stall is below "min sink".. look at the
min sink speed, best L/D speed and about 20knts more.. see where the polar
goes..

I too have not flown one.. just talking with a club mate that went to AZ to
look at and possibly buy one.. he passed and got a DG-600 instead.

BT

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
news:XVtGb.13616$7D3.1148@fed1read02...
> > > I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall
and
> > best L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..
>
> I haven't been able to locate a polar for the Genesis 2 on the 'Net, but
> looking at http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/ba/genesis2-glider.htm,
there
> seems to be a respectable difference between the stall speed (36 knots at
> 5.6 lbs/sq ft loading) and best L/D (43:1, 56 knots, 6 lbs/sq ft loading).
> Is that reasonable?
>
> -ted
>
>

[BTIZ]

min sink is 46 and best L/D is 50 for same wing loading

"Ted Wagner" > wrote in message
news:XVtGb.13616$7D3.1148@fed1read02...
> > > I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall
and
> > best L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..
>
> I haven't been able to locate a polar for the Genesis 2 on the 'Net, but
> looking at http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/ba/genesis2-glider.htm,
there
> seems to be a respectable difference between the stall speed (36 knots at
> 5.6 lbs/sq ft loading) and best L/D (43:1, 56 knots, 6 lbs/sq ft loading).
> Is that reasonable?
>
> -ted
>
>

[Paul T]

Ted at your experience level I would recommend if you
want to spend under 25k you go for an ASW19, Pegasus,
DG100, LS1F or LS4 (if you can find one for the price!)
Hornet, Std Cirrus (only with airbrake mod), Std Jantar.
All have around 36-40:1 performance, are suitable for
low time pilot, rig ok and are competetive in Sports
or 'Club Class'.

[olj]

I've flown the Genesis 2, but I prefer my Mosquito for handling
characteristics. Not to mention the 50 percent price difference.
The Genesis does have better cruise performance, but the
handling in thermalling is not as good.

Add the Mosquito to your list. It won't compete with the 15 meter
class, but that's why we have a sports class.


In article <XVtGb.13616$7D3.1148@fed1read02>, "Ted Wagner" >
wrote:
>> > I've heard the Genesis has a rather narrow speed band between stall and
>> best L/D and the polar falls off rather quickly after that..
>
>I haven't been able to locate a polar for the Genesis 2 on the 'Net, but
>looking at http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/ba/genesis2-glider.htm, there
>seems to be a respectable difference between the stall speed (36 knots at
>5.6 lbs/sq ft loading) and best L/D (43:1, 56 knots, 6 lbs/sq ft loading).
>Is that reasonable?
>
>-ted
>
>

[Greg Arnold]

> Also, I'll be trailer-parking the bird at Turf or Estrella, I'm 5'11", 170
> pounds, and able to lift fairly heavy pieces without assistance. (But I
> would like something easy to put together.) Again, I'm most interested in
> pursuing x-country, and competing as soon as I'm ready.

Hmmm. Can lift heavy pieces, and price under $25,000. Look at the
LS-3, which is in that price range, and whose only disadvantage is heavy
wings (170 pounds or so). An older glider (late '70's), but its flaps
have performance about the same as a modern standard class (flapless)
glider. Excellent for XC, especially with its gigantic spoilers that
will get you down anywhere.

[Doug Taylor]

Ted,

Thought I ought to put in my two cents as well. In an earlier post
you mentioned the lack of U.S. built gliders. There is one currently
in production. The SparrowHawk from Windward Performance. It offers
the most advanced construction of any sailplane on the market using
almost exclusively carbon fiber pre-preg's for the structure which
makes it extremely durable and extremely light. It has quite advanced
aerodynamics which allow it to fly with most of the 2nd generation
glass as long as it is not really booming conditions (others do
perform better at higher speeds) and have extremely good handling,
especially at low speeds. It is a very easy airplane to fly and has
been used as a first single seater by a few pilots. Everyone that has
flown it absolutely loved it.

My dad is planning to spend quite a bit of time at Estrella with his
this winter. I am sure he will be happy to show it to you. Contact
me directly if you need any more info.

Doug Taylor