Why Fly only seated

[Mackfly]

I think if you look deep enough you might find that the "head first" position
is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac

[JJ Sinclair]

>
>I think if you look deep enough you might find that the "head first" position
>is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac

Something that no one has mentioned yet is the effect on your inner ear when
pulling G's with your head down. Maybe some of our medical types could expand
on this. I once saw an F-102, roll into an overhead pattern, looked down to
change radio frequency and flew right into the ground.
JJ Sinclair

[Gill Couto]

I think that nails it. Flying prone in a hang glider is not a problem
because the G's are rarely significant even with the extra weight of
the helmet. Visibility and comfort also add up to make the
"lawn-chair position" ideal as several have suggested. You can just
take a lot more G's that way.

The reason I asked this question is because I took sailplane lessons
last year, after several years of hang gliding. I found a number of
things that took some getting used to, starting with the comfy seat.
It took many flights before my instructor stopped telling me to not
weight-shift the plane with my shoulders.

GillCouto.com


JJ Sinclair wrote:

>>I think if you look deep enough you might find that the "head first" position
>>is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac
>
>
> Something that no one has mentioned yet is the effect on your inner ear when
> pulling G's with your head down. Maybe some of our medical types could expand
> on this. I once saw an F-102, roll into an overhead pattern, looked down to
> change radio frequency and flew right into the ground.
> JJ Sinclair

[Bill Wallace]

Ok, I'll bite. Please cite the specific regulation.



(Mackfly) wrote in message >...
> I think if you look deep enough you might find that the "head first" position
> is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac

[Buck Wild]

Gill Couto > wrote in message news:<RWZHb.32862$J77.2112@fed1read07>...
> I think that nails it. Flying prone in a hang glider is not a problem
> because the G's are rarely significant even with the extra weight of
> the helmet. Visibility and comfort also add up to make the
> "lawn-chair position" ideal as several have suggested. You can just
> take a lot more G's that way.

I pull the same G's in HG as in gliders on a regular basis, up to
about 3.5. The body will take much more G prone than sitting, unless
your brain is in your butt. G induced LOC happens because the blood
leaves the head. The problem with prone is having to hold your head up
all day. Sitting up is an inferior position for pulling G's, but it's
alot more comfortable.

> The reason I asked this question is because I took sailplane lessons
> last year, after several years of hang gliding. I found a number of
> things that took some getting used to, starting with the comfy seat.
> It took many flights before my instructor stopped telling me to not
> weight-shift the plane with my shoulders.

>
> GillCouto.com
Evolution is a slow process, but when you get it sorted out, you will
find out why it's a superior position. I initially crossed over to
sailplane because of back problems, and Im glad we don't fly them
prone.

>
>
> >>I think if you look deep enough you might find that the "head first" position
> >>is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac

Really? What FAR is that?

> > > JJ Sinclair wrote:

> >
> > Something that no one has mentioned yet is the effect on your inner ear when
> > pulling G's with your head down. Maybe some of our medical types could expand
> > on this. I once saw an F-102, roll into an overhead pattern, looked down to
> > change radio frequency and flew right into the ground.
> > JJ Sinclair

Im quite aware of that effect, JJ, looking down & to the right during
a left turn is supposed to cause vertigo, suprisingly I've never
experianced anything like that, even doing aerobatics prone. Must be
physiologically different when flying on your belly like a reptile, as
I've never heard of anyone get that effect while hang gliding.

-Dan

[Gill Couto]

There may be some days when my butt might be in my brain but I've
never had it the other way around, Dan. I can see it's a lot less
stressful to take G's sitting with the extra weight down your spine
than it is prone with the weigh of your head leveraging on your spine.

3.5 G's is like putting some 60+ lbs. of weights on a 25 lb. head.
You must have the neck of the CA governor or an extra rope to your
helmet from the hang loops to support those G's. Holding a 60 lb.
cement bag over your head while sitting might be easier.

Just a few more thoughts,
GillCouto.com

Buck Wild wrote:
> I pull the same G's in HG as in gliders on a regular basis, up to
> about 3.5. The body will take much more G prone than sitting, unless
> your brain is in your butt. G induced LOC happens because the blood
> leaves the head. The problem with prone is having to hold your head up
> all day. Sitting up is an inferior position for pulling G's, but it's
> alot more comfortable.
>
> Evolution is a slow process, but when you get it sorted out, you will
> find out why it's a superior position. I initially crossed over to
> sailplane because of back problems, and Im glad we don't fly them
> prone.
>
> Im quite aware of that effect, JJ, looking down & to the right during
> a left turn is supposed to cause vertigo, suprisingly I've never
> experianced anything like that, even doing aerobatics prone. Must be
> physiologically different when flying on your belly like a reptile, as
> I've never heard of anyone get that effect while hang gliding.
>
> -Dan

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, (Mackfly) wrote:

> I think if you look deep enough you
> might find that the "head first" position
> is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac

I don't believe that's correct. I've been through the regs in 14 CFR
part 23, and also the European JAR-22, a few times and seen nothing
there that would bar prone flying. It seems to me that it's just not
the sort of thing that the FAA tends to make rules about. Besides
that, I can only imagine the language that it'd take to define a thing
like that to the necessary degree of detail.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Gary Kemp]

I remember in the late '60's at Elsinore California a glider that was
flown from the prone position, I think it was a Marske wing?? anyway
it was small and the pilot flew from his belly with rudders at the
back and head first in the canopy at the front.
>
> > I think if you look deep enough you
> > might find that the "head first" position
> > is prohibited by the FAA regs. Mac
>
> I don't believe that's correct. I've been through the regs in 14 CFR
> part 23, and also the European JAR-22, a few times and seen nothing
> there that would bar prone flying. It seems to me that it's just not
> the sort of thing that the FAA tends to make rules about. Besides
> that, I can only imagine the language that it'd take to define a thing
> like that to the necessary degree of detail.
>
> Thanks, and best regards to all
>
> Bob K.
> http://www.hpaircraft.com

[Bill Daniels]

"Gary Kemp" > wrote in message
om...
> I remember in the late '60's at Elsinore California a glider that was
> flown from the prone position, I think it was a Marske wing?? anyway
> it was small and the pilot flew from his belly with rudders at the
> back and head first in the canopy at the front.

Nope, that was Phil Lampson's UFO (Named "Unidentified Falling Object" due
to the low L/D by Ross Briglieb). He also flew it at the old El Mirage.
There was a story about it in a late '60's Soaring.

Seems he painted the leading edge with a stripe that tripped the boundary
layer into a separation bubble that caused full aileron and elevator
reversal - had to learn a new way to fly on the way down - there was no
bailout possibility.

All Marske designs have had fairly standard cockpits.

Bill Daniels

[Mackfly]

>From: (Bob Kuykendall)

>I don't believe that's correct. I've been through the regs in 14 CFR
>part 23, and also the European JAR-22, a few times and seen nothing
>there that would bar prone flying. It seems to me that it's just not
>the sort of thing that the FAA tends to make rules about.

It was something I read in an EAA publication a few years ago. And, it was not
just prone position but "head first" prone position. There had been a very
light homebuilt that was flown from an open cockpit head first position that
the write up was about. It went on to say that you could not get FAA
certification any longer of an aircraft with the "head first" prone pilot
position. Sorry I don't know the reg. Or even if there is one. On the other
hand I'd hate to build something that could not even be certified as EXP.
Mac