Motorglider and Towered Airport

[Steve B]

I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
glider
at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
flights
at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."

One concern will be Jet Blast… the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
and
comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
spacing
with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
or a
Cessna 150 would be adequate.

Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.

Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
would
think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.

Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.

Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
room is no
problem.

Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks in advance

Steve Barnes

[Vaughn]

"Steve B" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
> Airport
> with a Motorglider.

Why are you asking permission? "A meeting of the minds" might possibly
be in order, but I know of no requirement for you to ask permission to fly
anywhere if you have the required equipment. If you do, then you should be
asking for a specific waiver from a specific FAR.

Take this from someone who has made a serious study of Public
Administration, approach these people (if you must) as a customer and
discuss your mutual needs, abilities and resources; but ask for no unneeded
"permission".

Vaughn

[Ivan Kahn]

"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve B" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
> > Airport
> > with a Motorglider.
>
> Why are you asking permission? "A meeting of the minds" might
possibly
> be in order, but I know of no requirement for you to ask permission to fly
> anywhere if you have the required equipment. If you do, then you should
be
> asking for a specific waiver from a specific FAR.
>
> Take this from someone who has made a serious study of Public
> Administration, approach these people (if you must) as a customer and
> discuss your mutual needs, abilities and resources; but ask for no
unneeded
> "permission".
>
> Vaughn
>
>

Agree - just call for a landing or takeoff clearance in the same fashion as
any powered aircraft would. Most light aircraft fly the patterns at around
65 or less just as you would. Keep in mind that you being considerate of the
operations in desiring to better coordinate so as to minimize any adverse
impacts. The tower has no authority to deny you operational access!

Ivan

[BTIZ]

Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough) and
don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..

If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little dual
in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the local
airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence aircraft.

They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base" and
be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
getting the motor up and running.

Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
already have a right to.

BT

"Steve B" > wrote in message
om...
> I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
> glider
> at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.
>
> I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
> Airport
> with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
> I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
> flights
> at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
> propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."
>
> One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
> and
> comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
> spacing
> with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
> or a
> Cessna 150 would be adequate.
>
> Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
> slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.
>
> Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
> would
> think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.
>
> Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.
>
> Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
> room is no
> problem.
>
> Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Steve Barnes
>

[Mark James Boyd]

>They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
>to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base" and
>be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
>getting the motor up and running.
>
>Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
>because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
>already have a right to.
>
>BT

I'd like to see someone try this at Palomar airport near San Diego.
Son, number 8 for final approach, 13 in the pattern, with
one runway and "S-turns at your discretion" is no way
to go through life... :P

[Doug Easton]

True the rules say if you have an N number you can use the airspace.
However, you'll need access to the airport property with your car and
trailer and you'll need space to rig and de-rig; the airport manager is the
one who can make this easy for you (or difficult). If you **** off the tower
by having to ask for priority or tie up the runway if you can't taxi clear
then I expect that you'll find the airport manager can come up with a bunch
of reasons why you can't get access.

I would recommend starting with a polite visit to the airport manager. Offer
to pay a transient tie down fee for use of the apron while rigging and
de-rigging. Then visit the tower, tell them you have the airport manager's
permission and spend some time discussing how you can fit in with the other
traffic; tell them what the glider can do and what it can't, offer them a
tour of the cockpit. I did this at my local airport and find the tower to be
extremely helpful as a result. I always land in the glider configuration and
have always managed to roll clear without the motor; you might have to
choose a high speed taxiway to avoid a 90deg turn. I have had only a couple
of incidents where I was even slightly uncomfortable; once when asked to
extend downwind way too far and another when asked to go around on short
final, in both instances a simple "unable" was all that was needed to fix
it.

Remember, permission to enter the class D,C or B airspace is not automatic;
you may get "aircraft calling standby" if they're busy. In this case you
need to have a plan of action. Also if you're thinking about landing with
the motor running you should check your flight manual. Mine (DG800B) says
that landing with the engine running is prohibited.

Rgds,

Doug



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:6RIKb.48286$m83.23774@fed1read01...
> Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough)
and
> don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..
>
> If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little
dual
> in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the
local
> airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence
aircraft.
>
> They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
> to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base"
and
> be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
> getting the motor up and running.
>
> Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
> because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
> already have a right to.
>
> BT
>
> "Steve B" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
> > glider
> > at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.
> >
> > I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
> > Airport
> > with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
> > I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
> > flights
> > at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
> > propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."
> >
> > One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
> > and
> > comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
> > spacing
> > with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
> > or a
> > Cessna 150 would be adequate.
> >
> > Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
> > slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.
> >
> > Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
> > would
> > think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.
> >
> > Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.
> >
> > Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
> > room is no
> > problem.
> >
> > Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Steve Barnes
> >
>
>

[Steve B]

Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.



I have a request for specific information regarding flying a
motorglider from a single runway airport that has airline traffic. I
have been requested to submit a proposal as to how I would "add a
motorglider to the traffic mix" at a single runway airport that has
local and international airline traffic.

I would greatly appreciate any information that would be helpful
regarding the following:

Examples of Motorglider activity at Towered Airports

Examples of Motorglider activity at a single runway airports

Suggestions on what content to include in a proposal for operating a
motorglider at a single runway airport with a Tower.

My plan of action is to submit a proposal on how I would integrate the
Motorglider to the traffic mix. Then arrange for a demonstration
flight at another airport that is not as busy to at least get things
moving in the right direction.

Kona Airport is Class D Airspace. The FAA folks at FSDO do not believe
that there should be a problem flying there... but the Airport Manager
for my airport has the ability to throw a spanner in the works by
claiming safety or efficient use to try and avoid adding additional
traffic to the mix. In the past they have used that as a hurdle to
jump over for other types of aeronatical activity.

The Airport Manager wants to make it a State Issue and require
airspace studys (read... delay forever) although everything that I can
find about a Federal Funded Airport indicates to me that the FAA has
the final decision. There is a document FAA order 5190.6a that
requires all airports that receive federal funds must allow for all
classes of aeronatical activity and not discriminate. It is a very
helpful reference. One of the few exceptions is for safety and
efficiency. The FAA must then decide of the reasonableness of the
claim of safety and efficency.


The "Tower Guy" on my first call to him regarding the proposed flights
commented "don't bother bringing a motorglider here". So regardless of
the issues that one is going to be an uphill battle. I have had no
luck with talking to the tower.



"Doug Easton" > wrote in message .net>...
> True the rules say if you have an N number you can use the airspace.
> However, you'll need access to the airport property with your car and
> trailer and you'll need space to rig and de-rig; the airport manager is the
> one who can make this easy for you (or difficult). If you **** off the tower
> by having to ask for priority or tie up the runway if you can't taxi clear
> then I expect that you'll find the airport manager can come up with a bunch
> of reasons why you can't get access.
>
> I would recommend starting with a polite visit to the airport manager. Offer
> to pay a transient tie down fee for use of the apron while rigging and
> de-rigging. Then visit the tower, tell them you have the airport manager's
> permission and spend some time discussing how you can fit in with the other
> traffic; tell them what the glider can do and what it can't, offer them a
> tour of the cockpit. I did this at my local airport and find the tower to be
> extremely helpful as a result. I always land in the glider configuration and
> have always managed to roll clear without the motor; you might have to
> choose a high speed taxiway to avoid a 90deg turn. I have had only a couple
> of incidents where I was even slightly uncomfortable; once when asked to
> extend downwind way too far and another when asked to go around on short
> final, in both instances a simple "unable" was all that was needed to fix
> it.
>
> Remember, permission to enter the class D,C or B airspace is not automatic;
> you may get "aircraft calling standby" if they're busy. In this case you
> need to have a plan of action. Also if you're thinking about landing with
> the motor running you should check your flight manual. Mine (DG800B) says
> that landing with the engine running is prohibited.
>
> Rgds,
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:6RIKb.48286$m83.23774@fed1read01...
> > Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough)
> and
> > don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..
> >
> > If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little
> dual
> > in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the
> local
> > airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence
> aircraft.
> >
> > They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
> > to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base"
> and
> > be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
> > getting the motor up and running.
> >
> > Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
> > because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
> > already have a right to.
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Steve B" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
> > > glider
> > > at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.
> > >
> > > I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
> > > Airport
> > > with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
> > > I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
> > > flights
> > > at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
> > > propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."
> > >
> > > One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
> > > and
> > > comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
> > > spacing
> > > with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
> > > or a
> > > Cessna 150 would be adequate.
> > >
> > > Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
> > > slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.
> > >
> > > Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
> > > would
> > > think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.
> > >
> > > Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.
> > >
> > > Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
> > > room is no
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance
> > >
> > > Steve Barnes
> > >
> >
> >

[Mark James Boyd]

Steve B > wrote:
>Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
>easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.
>

Steve,

If you are Steven Perry Barnes, the FAA says you also have an
ASEL license. Hmmm...so there may be some other options.

Just brainstorming, mind you, but perhaps you can recertify your
motorglider as an airplane? Then it's just an experimental airplane... ;)

Also, if you fly out of there once in a regular plane, and show
how professionally you handle everything, when the controllers hear
your voice again they'll know you aren't some yahoo gonna
mess up their sequencing.

From the Airnav picture, it looks like Kona has at least one
high speed taxiway for you to get off. So that is very good.
I suppose the next issue is how to taxi.
If the glider can be taxied without a wingrunner, fine. If not
maybe Century Aviation or Tropicbird or Hawaii flight
academy, etc. can help you with a golf cart, a teenagers with a
reflective vest, and a short rope to taxi you away.

If it were me, I'd get a reflective vest for myself and the line boy,
go out and scout the taxi obstructions with the fire department,
arrange for a golf cart and rope, and pick a time with little
traffic. I'd also check in with the local flight schools and
tell them a plan and ask for input. They are likely to be
the biggest complainers or best allies.

I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.
By recollection, the taxiway and runway are so close together too
that I don't know if you could even safely taxi a glider
without wake turbulence being a factor in some areas. And with
the huge optempo (761 ops/day), taxi and landings and takeoffs are
quite challenging to order.

At 329 operations a day, Kona seems pretty packed too. Requesting
a taxiway for takeoff which ISN'T the one everyone else uses seems
a good idea, and using the high speed taxi off after landing should
minimize the grief about cluttering the active. Taxiing the
glider in a safe and efficient way is something else entirely...

Maybe try the whole thing simulated in a power plane first? A
little rehearsal dance for the golf cart and driver, and the
controller, and you?

Just some thoughts...hope they help with creative solutions...

[MKEENE221]

Steve,

This probably won't make much difference to your airport manager, but I once
flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas Love Field. And I know
of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport on a fairly regular
basis.

It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter what the type or class.
There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask permission. To ATC, there's
little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox or a J3 Cub, and I'm
sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the same hoops. It's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play by the rules that
everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to the traffic flow just like
there's nothing special.

Some specific examples include the following. Know the ATC lingo and use it in
a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay as close behind other
traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile behind a C172 because of
propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners, you can refuse takeoff
clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable. Be ready to go when
you're number one, and request an immediate turnout to allow another aircraft
to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before you land. After
landing, clear the runway ASAP.

All that considered, my advise would be to show up unannounced and fly. The
fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, is to give them
experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly out. Get friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral witness, your case can be
strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.

One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
you. If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.

Mark Keene

[Greg Arnold]

MKEENE221 wrote:



>
> One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
> airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
> As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
> you.

They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
assembly?


If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
> to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.

>
> Mark Keene

[MKEENE221]

>They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
>they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
>assembly?

Sounds like a good question for the legal gurus at the SSA or AOPA. I'll ask.

Mark

[Mark James Boyd]

>They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
>they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
>assembly?

Hmmm...dunno about that one. But I just thought of a few more
things:

You can see if it's ok to land and takeoff from a taxiway.
Perhaps a little unlikely but an option.

You can arrange to land long. Min separation is 3000 ft between
aircraft, so really four SMALL aircraft can land at once on a
10,000 foot runway if the first one only uses 1000 feet.
If you can demonstrate you will land using only the last 1000
feet, that might alleviate problems. Also, landing right at the
high-speed point and immediately taxiing off would be
real cool (assuming taxiway lights are no problem).

Just a few more thoughts to throw into the
options...

[Steve B]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<3ffc643c$1@darkstar>...
> Steve B > wrote:
> >Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
> >easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.
> >
>
> Steve,
>
> If you are Steven Perry Barnes, the FAA says you also have an
> ASEL license. Hmmm...so there may be some other options.
>
> Just brainstorming, mind you, but perhaps you can recertify your
> motorglider as an airplane? Then it's just an experimental airplane... ;)

Nice try... certificate of air worthiness is classified as glider
(not experimental or airplane)


>
> Also, if you fly out of there once in a regular plane, and show
> how professionally you handle everything, when the controllers hear
> your voice again they'll know you aren't some yahoo gonna
> mess up their sequencing.

I fly my Mooney there as well

>
> From the Airnav picture, it looks like Kona has at least one
> high speed taxiway for you to get off. So that is very good.

I am impressed with your attention to detail... I like the high speed
taxiway as well for runway 17

> I suppose the next issue is how to taxi.
> If the glider can be taxied without a wingrunner, fine. If not
> maybe Century Aviation or Tropicbird or Hawaii flight
> academy, etc. can help you with a golf cart, a teenagers with a
> reflective vest, and a short rope to taxi you away.

Taxi is no problem with the tail wheel steering and wing tip wheels...
taxi ways are ample and the runway is 150 ft wide.

>
> If it were me, I'd get a reflective vest for myself and the line boy,
> go out and scout the taxi obstructions with the fire department,
> arrange for a golf cart and rope, and pick a time with little
> traffic. I'd also check in with the local flight schools and
> tell them a plan and ask for input. They are likely to be
> the biggest complainers or best allies.
>
> I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
> and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.

Sounds subjective to me. Am I to assume that you would want to
discriminate against aeronautical activity? So am I also to assume
that you would not allow other light aircraft as well. Would that be
legal?

> By recollection, the taxiway and runway are so close together too
> that I don't know if you could even safely taxi a glider
> without wake turbulence being a factor in some areas.

This glider ASH 26-e is a fairly heavy machine... 1100 lbs ready to
go. I would expect it to handle similar to a J3 cub or a Cessna 150
regarding jet blast.

And with
> the huge optempo (761 ops/day), taxi and landings and takeoffs are
> quite challenging to order.
>
> At 329 operations a day, Kona seems pretty packed too. Requesting
> a taxiway for takeoff which ISN'T the one everyone else uses seems
> a good idea, and using the high speed taxi off after landing should
> minimize the grief about cluttering the active.

There is an ultra light that uses the taxi way for take off and
landing, as well as Helicopters... it is a bit tight for the 60 ft
wing span to be landing on it.


Taxiing the
> glider in a safe and efficient way is something else entirely...

Taxi should be no problem

>
> Maybe try the whole thing simulated in a power plane first? A
> little rehearsal dance for the golf cart and driver, and the
> controller, and you?

I am moving in the direction of submitting a proposal for the opertion
of the motorglider to the parties involved in the decision making
process.

>
> Just some thoughts...hope they help with creative solutions...

Lateral thinking... good stuff!

Thanks
Steve B.

[Steve B]

<snip>Get friendly with
> the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
> report back to superiors. <end snip>

FSDO folks are starting to help get the ball rolling... at this point
they have been helpful with putting together a proposal to the "powers
that be" to gradualy move in the direction of being allowed to
demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in regards to safe and
effecient operation and traffic mix.

Snip>It's just
> another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
> gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
> altogether and the problem goes away.

Don't have the T Shirt yet but I am "being there" and "doing that"
sounds like you have been there done that.

Thanks
Steve





(MKEENE221) wrote in message >...
> Steve,
>
> This probably won't make much difference to your airport manager, but I once
> flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas Love Field. And I know
> of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport on a fairly regular
> basis.
>
> It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter what the type or class.
> There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask permission. To ATC, there's
> little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox or a J3 Cub, and I'm
> sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the same hoops. It's just
> another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
> gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
> altogether and the problem goes away.
>
> That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play by the rules that
> everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to the traffic flow just like
> there's nothing special.
>
> Some specific examples include the following. Know the ATC lingo and use it in
> a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay as close behind other
> traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile behind a C172 because of
> propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners, you can refuse takeoff
> clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable. Be ready to go when
> you're number one, and request an immediate turnout to allow another aircraft
> to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before you land. After
> landing, clear the runway ASAP.
>
> All that considered, my advise would be to show up unannounced and fly. The
> fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, is to give them
> experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly out. Get friendly with
> the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
> report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral witness, your case can be
> strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.
>
> One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
> airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
> As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
> you. If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
> to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.
>
> Mark Keene

[Bob C]

Mark (and others) are 100% right on this one. You
do not need to ask permission. In fact, doing so sets
a bad precedent. In dealing with FAA or airport management,
remind them (tactfully) that the burden of proof is
on them. In other words, if they can't show you regulations
prohibiting an activity, then they must allow it.
Understand that they probably don't know the regs as
well as you do.

Recognizing that the tower probably has never dealt
with a motorglider, in the interest of safety, a brief
letter describing your intentions, limitations and
expectations might smooth things a bit.

You are a registered aircraft wishing to use a public
airport. Send a letter, show up and fly. If you catch
any flak from airport management or FAA, ask them to
put it in writing. Carry a small tape recorder with
you. I've found these two practices quickly knock
the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats. Be polite,
but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask
them to put a supervisor on the radio.

As for wake turbulence, and taxiing around with the
big boys, I doubt you are any more at risk than a small
Cessna or Katana. Stay back 200' or so, and accept
a wake turbulence delay on takeoff.

If you are barred from entering the airport, contact
your state aviation department and your congressman.
You'd be amazed how quickly they can sway the system
to your side.



At 09:06 08 January 2004, Steve B wrote:
>Get friendly with
>> the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your
>>arrival and departure, and
>> report back to superiors.
>
>FSDO folks are starting to help get the ball rolling...
>at this point
>they have been helpful with putting together a proposal
>to the 'powers
>that be' to gradualy move in the direction of being
>allowed to
>demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in regards
>to safe and
>effecient operation and traffic mix.
>
>Snip>It's just
>> another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't
>>know anything about
>> gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn.
>> Just ban them
>> altogether and the problem goes away.
>
>Don't have the T Shirt yet but I am 'being there' and
>'doing that'
>sounds like you have been there done that.
>
>Thanks
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
(MKEENE221) wrote in message news:...
>> Steve,
>>
>> This probably won't make much difference to your airport
>>manager, but I once
>> flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas
>>Love Field. And I know
>> of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport
>>on a fairly regular
>> basis.
>>
>> It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter
>>what the type or class.
>> There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask
>>permission. To ATC, there's
>> little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox
>>or a J3 Cub, and I'm
>> sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the
>>same hoops. It's just
>> another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't
>>know anything about
>> gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn.
>> Just ban them
>> altogether and the problem goes away.
>>
>> That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play
>>by the rules that
>> everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to
>>the traffic flow just like
>> there's nothing special.
>>
>> Some specific examples include the following. Know
>>the ATC lingo and use it in
>> a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay
>>as close behind other
>> traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile
>>behind a C172 because of
>> propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners,
>>you can refuse takeoff
>> clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable.
>> Be ready to go when
>> you're number one, and request an immediate turnout
>>to allow another aircraft
>> to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before
>>you land. After
>> landing, clear the runway ASAP.
>>
>> All that considered, my advise would be to show up
>>unannounced and fly. The
>> fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn,
>>is to give them
>> experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly
>>out. Get friendly with
>> the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your
>>arrival and departure, and
>> report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral
>>witness, your case can be
>> strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.
>>
>> One more point, Federal law is in force here, not
>>state law. Remember that the
>> airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate
>>you into going away.
>> As was said in a previous post, if they take federal
>>funds, they can't refuse
>> you. If they threaten you with something, ask them
>>in a polite and humble way
>> to show you where to find the reg that they're referring
>>to.
>>
>> Mark Keene
>

[Tony Verhulst]

Bob C wrote:
> Carry a small tape recorder with
> you. I've found these two practices quickly knock
> the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats.

I like this!

> Be polite,
> but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask
> them to put a supervisor on the radio.

No! You get his telephone number and call him. A busy airport has no
radio bandwidth for this kind of transaction - and is standard
procedure. If you spend any time at a busy field you see some pilot
really screw up and the next thing you'll hear is the tower issueing a
telephone number for the pilot to call after landing.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Tom Seim]

Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

[Mark James Boyd]

Steve B > wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<3ffc643c$1@darkstar>...
>
>Taxi is no problem with the tail wheel steering and wing tip wheels...
>taxi ways are ample and the runway is 150 ft wide.

Excellent. That's a huge problem solved.

>> I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
>> and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.
>
>Sounds subjective to me. Am I to assume that you would want to
>discriminate against aeronautical activity? So am I also to assume
>that you would not allow other light aircraft as well. Would that be
>legal?

Some airports have done just that. San Jose International
shoved out the little guys with it's $50 ramp fee, and SFO and
LAX do the same. I've heard rumblings of Santa Monica
doing the same (fees for deplaning). Number of operations a day
and revenue from those operations are a big motivator. Whether
one is legally allowed to do something sometimes takes a back seat.
I was really just trying to give some insight into the thoughts
behind these attitudes, I don't endorse the prejudice or give in
to it, just recognise the source and try to play along...

>This glider ASH 26-e is a fairly heavy machine... 1100 lbs ready to
>go. I would expect it to handle similar to a J3 cub or a Cessna 150
>regarding jet blast.

also excellent...

>
>There is an ultra light that uses the taxi way for take off and
>landing, as well as Helicopters... it is a bit tight for the 60 ft
>wing span to be landing on it.
>

it's starting to look like you'll have more options than many
on this group (including me) originally assumed...

>I am moving in the direction of submitting a proposal for the opertion
>of the motorglider to the parties involved in the decision making
>process.

Using lesser used taxiways right before takeoff, landing long,
using high speed taxiways for landing, and taxiing efficiently
sound like a great help. The fact you are very familiar from your Mooney
experience also suggests you have this well thought out and
should be an excellent airport neighbor. Good for you!!

>
>Lateral thinking... good stuff!
>
>Thanks
>Steve B.

[Steve B]

Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message >...
> Steve,
>
> DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
> DO!
> Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.
>
> Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
> rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
> it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
> that they dream up on the spot.
>
> I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
> problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
> of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
> radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
> the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
> power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
> A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
> generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
> have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
> controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
> controller's atitudes).
>
> This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
> my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
> an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
> hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
> job.
>
> Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
> know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
> this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.
>
> Tom Seim
> DG-400
> Richland, WA

[John Shelton]

Also has the highest consumption of Spam per capita in America but Honolulu
is rated by Men's Health magazine as the leanest city in America.


"Steve B" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom... thanks for your suggestion.
>
> Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
> presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
> of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
> hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
> need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
> curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
> the dragon (airport manager) with.
>
> I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
> motorgliders are able to any of the following:
>
> Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines
>
> Operate on Airports that have a Tower
>
> Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway
>
> A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
> with the air traffic and taxi operations.
>
>
> This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
> first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
> for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
> Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
> ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
> cleared.
>
> Mahalo
> Steve Barnes
>
>
>
> (Tom Seim) wrote in message
>...
> > Steve,
> >
> > DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
> > DO!
> > Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.
> >
> > Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
> > rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
> > it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
> > that they dream up on the spot.
> >
> > I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
> > problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
> > of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
> > radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
> > the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
> > power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
> > A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
> > generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
> > have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
> > controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
> > controller's atitudes).
> >
> > This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
> > my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
> > an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
> > hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
> > job.
> >
> > Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
> > know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
> > this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.
> >
> > Tom Seim
> > DG-400
> > Richland, WA

[Tom Seim]

Steve,

No doubt my best example is Hailey, ID, which serves Sun Valley. I
have flown out of this A/P for nearly 20 years, starting with an ASW19
and later with my DG-400. Hailey is the 2nd busiest A/P in Idaho
(after Boise). It has a single runway in a valley surrounded by
mountains. There is A LOT of heavy metal flying into and out of
Hailey because of Sun Valley (Warren Buffet, Arnold, etc.). When I
first started flying there it was uncontrolled. About 1990 they added
a control tower, which really helped (I once had to cut off a Cessna -
Citation that is). Glider ops stopped there a few years ago after the
commercial operator left, but there was never a safety issue. My main
confusion was the difference between cleared to the hold line and
holding on the runway (you REALLY want clearance for departure when
you take a runway that might be seeing a G5 landing at 130 kt!). That
part is really understanding the lingo of the controllers.
Other tower controlled A/Ps I have operated out of include Pasco, WA,
Pendleton, OR, Walla Walla, WA, Felts Field, WA, Geiger (Spokane), WA,
Clarkston, ID and Missoula, MT. The key to integrating into regular
A/P operations is to behave like a regular GA aircraft: no special
requirements. Generally, this means the ability to taxi w/o assistance
(some MGs can't do this, i.e. Ventus and Nimbus). If you can land and
taxi off the runway w/o power then you don't present a problem to the
controllers. This requires consistent energy management, i.e. hitting
a touchdown point within a 100 feet. If absolutely necessary you can
land w/power (POH permitting). I avoid this because this requires an
in-air restart; what if it doesn't start? Then you have an emergency.

Let me know if you have any other questions (tom_systek AT MSN dot
COM).

Tom


(Steve B) wrote in message >...
> Tom... thanks for your suggestion.
>
> Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
> presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
> of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
> hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
> need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
> curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
> the dragon (airport manager) with.
>
> I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
> motorgliders are able to any of the following:
>
> Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines
>
> Operate on Airports that have a Tower
>
> Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway
>
> A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
> with the air traffic and taxi operations.
>
>
> This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
> first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
> for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
> Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
> ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
> cleared.
>
> Mahalo
> Steve Barnes
>
>
>
> (Tom Seim) wrote in message >...
> > Steve,
> >
> > DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
> > DO!
> > Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.
> >
> > Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
> > rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
> > it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
> > that they dream up on the spot.
> >
> > I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
> > problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
> > of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
> > radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
> > the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
> > power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
> > A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
> > generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
> > have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
> > controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
> > controller's atitudes).
> >
> > This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
> > my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
> > an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
> > hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
> > job.
> >
> > Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
> > know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
> > this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.
> >
> > Tom Seim
> > DG-400
> > Richland, WA

[Mark James Boyd]

Michael Stringfellow > wrote:
>
>Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
>the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
>aircraft as well as helicopters.

www.airnav.com

Scottsdale: 506 operations/day

McClellan-Palomar: 761 operations/day

and Palomar is about half as long, so simultaneous
landings with 3000 ft separation isn't as easy.

Mark

P.S. And I used to crawl both ways through sleet for 50 miles to
get to kindergarten... :P Yeah, I know...I should stop whining...

[Michael Stringfellow]

Steve:

As others have mentioned, you don't need permission to operate at a towered
ariport provided you comply with all the appropriate FARs. However, you may
need forgiveness if you disrupt the orderly flow of traffic at a busy
airport!

Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
aircraft as well as helicopters. There are at least two motor gliders who
are based at or use the airport. In fact, one joined in behind me in the
pattern a couple of days ago (I was pounding holes in the asphalt with a
Cezzna). We were both put on a circuitous route to land with 360s and
extended downwinds to clear jet traffic. ATC treated us both the same (and
extremely well, I might add).

These aircraft are all motorgliders with the ability to taxi and manoever
under power on landing (Katana, Grob 109, etc).

I can see considerable difficulties in landing an unpowered glider at a busy
airport just from the disruption in traffic and the need to get personnel on
the runaway to clear the aircraft. At less busy airports this should not be
a problem but obviously needs the cooperation of airport management and
staff.

Mike

ASW 20 WA


"Steve B" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom... thanks for your suggestion.
>
> Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
> presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
> of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
> hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
> need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
> curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
> the dragon (airport manager) with.
>
> I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
> motorgliders are able to any of the following:
>
> Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines
>
> Operate on Airports that have a Tower
>
> Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway
>
> A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
> with the air traffic and taxi operations.
>
>
> This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
> first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
> for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
> Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
> ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
> cleared.
>
> Mahalo
> Steve Barnes
>
>
>
> (Tom Seim) wrote in message
>...
> > Steve,
> >
> > DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
> > DO!
> > Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.
> >
> > Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
> > rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
> > it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
> > that they dream up on the spot.
> >
> > I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
> > problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
> > of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
> > radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
> > the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
> > power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
> > A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
> > generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
> > have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
> > controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
> > controller's atitudes).
> >
> > This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
> > my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
> > an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
> > hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
> > job.
> >
> > Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
> > know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
> > this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.
> >
> > Tom Seim
> > DG-400
> > Richland, WA

[Steve B]

Ok... from what I can tell and per suggestions from some very
accomplished and helpful individuals that have been kind enough to
allow me to be a bother... my apologies, Next step is as follows:

A brief letter to the tower, FAA and airport manager stating my
intentions, concern for safety, aircraft limitations (if any), and my
expectations I will ask them to inform me in writing of any
Federal regulations I may be violating by flying there in a polite,
but firm letter. CC my State aviation department, SSA, FAA Washington
(AFS 800) as well as Senators and representatives.

I have not been able in all of my research to find a single comment
that would indicate that this aircraft is in violation of any FAR

or any airport that allows light aircraft to fly that will not allow
this aircraft type to fly.

As well as any Safety or Efficiency issue regarding this aircraft that
would impede or delay operations at a single runway airport as well.
(assuming reasonablness)

So anyway that is plan A.


Now in the for what it's worth category...

One of the airports that I will be flying out of is Upolu on the
northern tip of the Big Island. Just out of curiosity I checked the
utilization...

27 operations per month! man... when I start flying there, they may
actually reach a level of a (natural positive integer)
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<4002d23b$1@darkstar>...
> Michael Stringfellow > wrote:
> >
> >Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
> >the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
> >aircraft as well as helicopters.
>
> www.airnav.com
>
> Scottsdale: 506 operations/day
>
> McClellan-Palomar: 761 operations/day
>
> and Palomar is about half as long, so simultaneous
> landings with 3000 ft separation isn't as easy.
>
> Mark
>
> P.S. And I used to crawl both ways through sleet for 50 miles to
> get to kindergarten... :P Yeah, I know...I should stop whining...