Total Cost of Ownership

[[email protected]]

I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on total cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what do you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?

Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-300, etc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Talking just dollars that will leave your pocket.

Inspections vary from $75 to $250 or so.

Insurance, full coverage, will run about 3% of insured value per year. Some companies will allow an off season "storage" rate where you will not have "in motion hull or liability coverage." Via Costello, "in motion" means from the start of takeoff roll to the end of landing roll. It has nothing to do with moving in the trailer or even towing around the airport. At least, that was the most recent word I had from them.

Spare parts. How much are you planning on breaking it?

Parachute re-pack will run around $100 each time it is done.

You will spend another $100 per year on other misc things, like polish, new yaw string, wing tape, etc. Just count on it. It will happen.

There will be things that come up every 3-5 years, such as hydrostatic inspection of oxygen bottle, replacement of tape on mylar seals, trailer tires, etc. If you figure $200 for a set of tires over 5 years, that is $40 per year for that. Double that to cover other time related items.

Property tax or state registration fee. Can be anything from $10 to $1000 per year for a $30K sailplane, depending on your state.

How much is it going to cost you to park the trailer at the airport?

Easy to get to $1500 per year.

That has been my experience.

Steve Leonard

[Renny[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:08:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on total cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what do you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
>
> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-300, etc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks

You ask a good question, but a lot has to do with where you fly and where you are going to keep your glider. You may want to ask others who fly where you fly to get an idea of their various expenses. To me here are the some basic expenses to consider..

1. Tiedown fees for trailer - For some locations there is 0 expense. At Moriarty, NM the charge is $200. year.
2. Hangar costs - If it will be kept assembled (or in a trailer) in a hangar it can be sizable....
3. Insurance - If you are in the US you may want to call Costello and perhaps other companies for a quote or ask your friends.
4. Annual - Costs can vary all over in the US, but could easily be $100 to $200 (maybe more) if there are no issues.
5. Parachute repack - Needed normally twice a year in this US and this could easily be $ 50 - $60 or more per repack
6. Oxygen - If you fly out especially out west this will be another expense..
7. Maintenance - Depending on the overall condition of your ship it can be minimal in any particular year, but in another year it can be several hundred USD if you need a tire or even minor touch up work....
8. There is also the cost of money to consider. Will you have to take a loan? If you have the funds there is the opportunity cost of not having the money invested.

Now, this all being said....You can compare all of this against having to rent a ship and the many limitations you face in renting whether from a commercial operator or when using a club ship. The benefits of having your own ship are many and sometimes the hard benefits are somewhat difficult to quantify, but they can be very worth owning..(and indeed, I have owned 6 gliders over the years!)

Again, the KEY is to check with local pilot friends to see what they are actually having to pay for various services wherever you live and fly. Every location can be very unique in the expenses you will have to pay.

Good luck!

Thx - Renny

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 18:42 27 April 2017, Renny wrote:
>On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:08:02 PM UTC-6,
wrote:
>> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on
>to=
>tal cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what
>d=
>o you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
>>=20
>> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-
300,
>e=
>tc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks
>
>You ask a good question, but a lot has to do with where you fly and where
>y=
>ou are going to keep your glider. You may want to ask others who fly
where
>=
>you fly to get an idea of their various expenses. To me here are the some
>b=
>asic expenses to consider..
>
>1. Tiedown fees for trailer - For some locations there is 0 expense. At
>M=
>oriarty, NM the charge is $200. year.
>2. Hangar costs - If it will be kept assembled (or in a trailer) in a
>hanga=
>r it can be sizable....=20
>3. Insurance - If you are in the US you may want to call Costello and
>perha=
>ps other companies for a quote or ask your friends.
>4. Annual - Costs can vary all over in the US, but could easily be $100
to
>=
>$200 (maybe more) if there are no issues.=20
>5. Parachute repack - Needed normally twice a year in this US and this
>coul=
>d easily be $ 50 - $60 or more per repack
>6. Oxygen - If you fly out especially out west this will be another
>expense=
>..
>7. Maintenance - Depending on the overall condition of your ship it can
be
>=
>minimal in any particular year, but in another year it can be several
>hundr=
>ed USD if you need a tire or even minor touch up work.... =20
>8. There is also the cost of money to consider. Will you have to take a
>loa=
>n? If you have the funds there is the opportunity cost of not having the
>mo=
>ney invested.
>
>Now, this all being said....You can compare all of this against having to
>r=
>ent a ship and the many limitations you face in renting whether from a
>comm=
>ercial operator or when using a club ship. The benefits of having your
own
>=
>ship are many and sometimes the hard benefits are somewhat difficult to
>qua=
>ntify, but they can be very worth owning..(and indeed, I have owned 6
>glide=
>rs over the years!)=20
>
>Again, the KEY is to check with local pilot friends to see what they are
>ac=
>tually having to pay for various services wherever you live and fly.
Every
>=
>location can be very unique in the expenses you will have to pay.
>
>Good luck!=20
>
>Thx - Renny
>

Shared ownership can be a good system,over here in Briton we call it
syndicate ownership.
Not only does it reduce the cost it means that there is at least one person

that has an interest in helping to rig,retreave and de rig .
It helps if you are friends but as long as you can get on its not
necessary.
It does mean the choice of ships is different because you have more money
but you both have to agree.
Jon

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 4:15:05 PM UTC-6, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 18:42 27 April 2017, Renny wrote:
> >On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:08:02 PM UTC-6,
> wrote:
> >> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on
> >to=
> >tal cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what
> >d=
> >o you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
> >>=20
> >> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-
> 300,
> >e=
> >tc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks
> >
> >You ask a good question, but a lot has to do with where you fly and where
> >y=
> >ou are going to keep your glider. You may want to ask others who fly
> where
> >=
> >you fly to get an idea of their various expenses. To me here are the some
> >b=
> >asic expenses to consider..
> >
> >1. Tiedown fees for trailer - For some locations there is 0 expense. At
> >M=
> >oriarty, NM the charge is $200. year.
> >2. Hangar costs - If it will be kept assembled (or in a trailer) in a
> >hanga=
> >r it can be sizable....=20
> >3. Insurance - If you are in the US you may want to call Costello and
> >perha=
> >ps other companies for a quote or ask your friends.
> >4. Annual - Costs can vary all over in the US, but could easily be $100
> to
> >=
> >$200 (maybe more) if there are no issues.=20
> >5. Parachute repack - Needed normally twice a year in this US and this
> >coul=
> >d easily be $ 50 - $60 or more per repack
> >6. Oxygen - If you fly out especially out west this will be another
> >expense=
> >..
> >7. Maintenance - Depending on the overall condition of your ship it can
> be
> >=
> >minimal in any particular year, but in another year it can be several
> >hundr=
> >ed USD if you need a tire or even minor touch up work.... =20
> >8. There is also the cost of money to consider. Will you have to take a
> >loa=
> >n? If you have the funds there is the opportunity cost of not having the
> >mo=
> >ney invested.
> >
> >Now, this all being said....You can compare all of this against having to
> >r=
> >ent a ship and the many limitations you face in renting whether from a
> >comm=
> >ercial operator or when using a club ship. The benefits of having your
> own
> >=
> >ship are many and sometimes the hard benefits are somewhat difficult to
> >qua=
> >ntify, but they can be very worth owning..(and indeed, I have owned 6
> >glide=
> >rs over the years!)=20
> >
> >Again, the KEY is to check with local pilot friends to see what they are
> >ac=
> >tually having to pay for various services wherever you live and fly.
> Every
> >=
> >location can be very unique in the expenses you will have to pay.
> >
> >Good luck!=20
> >
> >Thx - Renny
> >
>
> Shared ownership can be a good system,over here in Briton we call it
> syndicate ownership.
> Not only does it reduce the cost it means that there is at least one person
>
> that has an interest in helping to rig,retreave and de rig .
> It helps if you are friends but as long as you can get on its not
> necessary.
> It does mean the choice of ships is different because you have more money
> but you both have to agree.
> Jon

10.5 years in UK in two tours. Our syndicates were generally 4-way, often with one non-active partner. Yes kept costs down. Always an available seat. IIRC, at the end of my first 4.5 years I had logged at least 30 makes/models. Only 4-5 new during the second tour, but a lot more XC as I had I had interests in three gliders at one point; one wholly owned, one 3-way, and another 4-way.

In my own case, I made myself known at the glider port and got to know the other member pilots and their flying skills pretty well. That sort of engagement facilitates entering and leaving syndicates.

Frank Whiteley

[Dan Marotta]

A partnership took me from an ASW-19b to an LS-6a. I couldn't have been
happier!

Dan

On 4/27/2017 5:37 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 4:15:05 PM UTC-6, Jonathon May wrote:
>> At 18:42 27 April 2017, Renny wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:08:02 PM UTC-6,
>> wrote:
>>>> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on
>>> to=
>>> tal cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what
>>> d=
>>> o you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
>>>> =20
>>>> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-
>> 300,
>>> e=
>>> tc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks
>>>
>>> You ask a good question, but a lot has to do with where you fly and where
>>> y=
>>> ou are going to keep your glider. You may want to ask others who fly
>> where
>>> =
>>> you fly to get an idea of their various expenses. To me here are the some
>>> b=
>>> asic expenses to consider..
>>>
>>> 1. Tiedown fees for trailer - For some locations there is 0 expense. At
>>> M=
>>> oriarty, NM the charge is $200. year.
>>> 2. Hangar costs - If it will be kept assembled (or in a trailer) in a
>>> hanga=
>>> r it can be sizable....=20
>>> 3. Insurance - If you are in the US you may want to call Costello and
>>> perha=
>>> ps other companies for a quote or ask your friends.
>>> 4. Annual - Costs can vary all over in the US, but could easily be $100
>> to
>>> =
>>> $200 (maybe more) if there are no issues.=20
>>> 5. Parachute repack - Needed normally twice a year in this US and this
>>> coul=
>>> d easily be $ 50 - $60 or more per repack
>>> 6. Oxygen - If you fly out especially out west this will be another
>>> expense=
>>> ..
>>> 7. Maintenance - Depending on the overall condition of your ship it can
>> be
>>> =
>>> minimal in any particular year, but in another year it can be several
>>> hundr=
>>> ed USD if you need a tire or even minor touch up work.... =20
>>> 8. There is also the cost of money to consider. Will you have to take a
>>> loa=
>>> n? If you have the funds there is the opportunity cost of not having the
>>> mo=
>>> ney invested.
>>>
>>> Now, this all being said....You can compare all of this against having to
>>> r=
>>> ent a ship and the many limitations you face in renting whether from a
>>> comm=
>>> ercial operator or when using a club ship. The benefits of having your
>> own
>>> =
>>> ship are many and sometimes the hard benefits are somewhat difficult to
>>> qua=
>>> ntify, but they can be very worth owning..(and indeed, I have owned 6
>>> glide=
>>> rs over the years!)=20
>>>
>>> Again, the KEY is to check with local pilot friends to see what they are
>>> ac=
>>> tually having to pay for various services wherever you live and fly.
>> Every
>>> =
>>> location can be very unique in the expenses you will have to pay.
>>>
>>> Good luck!=20
>>>
>>> Thx - Renny
>>>
>> Shared ownership can be a good system,over here in Briton we call it
>> syndicate ownership.
>> Not only does it reduce the cost it means that there is at least one person
>>
>> that has an interest in helping to rig,retreave and de rig .
>> It helps if you are friends but as long as you can get on its not
>> necessary.
>> It does mean the choice of ships is different because you have more money
>> but you both have to agree.
>> Jon
> 10.5 years in UK in two tours. Our syndicates were generally 4-way, often with one non-active partner. Yes kept costs down. Always an available seat. IIRC, at the end of my first 4.5 years I had logged at least 30 makes/models. Only 4-5 new during the second tour, but a lot more XC as I had I had interests in three gliders at one point; one wholly owned, one 3-way, and another 4-way.
>
> In my own case, I made myself known at the glider port and got to know the other member pilots and their flying skills pretty well. That sort of engagement facilitates entering and leaving syndicates.
>
> Frank Whiteley

--
Dan, 5J

[howard banks]

Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.





On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 2:08:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on total cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what do you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
>
> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-300, etc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks

[Papa3[_2_]]

Steve and Renny have the ballpark numbers. FWIW, when I owned an LS4 in "well-used" condition, I budgeted an additional $500/year for capital improvements. I'd save up until I had enough for the desired toy. This meant a new vario, a new radio, flight computer, tow out gear, etc. IIRC, I budgeted $2200/year including the capital fund (New York/Philly area), and that came out just about right for the glider stored in the trailer in a barn adjacent to the airport.

Erik Mann

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 5:37:42 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 4:15:05 PM UTC-6, Jonathon May wrote:
> > At 18:42 27 April 2017, Renny wrote:
> > >On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 12:08:02 PM UTC-6,
> > wrote:
> > >> I am looking to buy my first glider and wanted to get some feedback on
> > >to=
> > >tal cost of ownership. Excluding tow fees and club membership fees, what
> > >d=
> > >o you typically spend on insurance, annuals, spare parts, etc.?
> > >>=20
> > >> Looking to buy an ASW20, Discus B, Discus CS, LS3, LS4, DG-202, DG-
> > 300,
> > >e=
> > >tc. Trying to get a good quality ship for under $30K. Thanks
> > >
> > >You ask a good question, but a lot has to do with where you fly and where
> > >y=
> > >ou are going to keep your glider. You may want to ask others who fly
> > where
> > >=
> > >you fly to get an idea of their various expenses. To me here are the some
> > >b=
> > >asic expenses to consider..
> > >
> > >1. Tiedown fees for trailer - For some locations there is 0 expense. At
> > >M=
> > >oriarty, NM the charge is $200. year.
> > >2. Hangar costs - If it will be kept assembled (or in a trailer) in a
> > >hanga=
> > >r it can be sizable....=20
> > >3. Insurance - If you are in the US you may want to call Costello and
> > >perha=
> > >ps other companies for a quote or ask your friends.
> > >4. Annual - Costs can vary all over in the US, but could easily be $100
> > to
> > >=
> > >$200 (maybe more) if there are no issues.=20
> > >5. Parachute repack - Needed normally twice a year in this US and this
> > >coul=
> > >d easily be $ 50 - $60 or more per repack
> > >6. Oxygen - If you fly out especially out west this will be another
> > >expense=
> > >..
> > >7. Maintenance - Depending on the overall condition of your ship it can
> > be
> > >=
> > >minimal in any particular year, but in another year it can be several
> > >hundr=
> > >ed USD if you need a tire or even minor touch up work.... =20
> > >8. There is also the cost of money to consider. Will you have to take a
> > >loa=
> > >n? If you have the funds there is the opportunity cost of not having the
> > >mo=
> > >ney invested.
> > >
> > >Now, this all being said....You can compare all of this against having to
> > >r=
> > >ent a ship and the many limitations you face in renting whether from a
> > >comm=
> > >ercial operator or when using a club ship. The benefits of having your
> > own
> > >=
> > >ship are many and sometimes the hard benefits are somewhat difficult to
> > >qua=
> > >ntify, but they can be very worth owning..(and indeed, I have owned 6
> > >glide=
> > >rs over the years!)=20
> > >
> > >Again, the KEY is to check with local pilot friends to see what they are
> > >ac=
> > >tually having to pay for various services wherever you live and fly.
> > Every
> > >=
> > >location can be very unique in the expenses you will have to pay.
> > >
> > >Good luck!=20
> > >
> > >Thx - Renny
> > >
> >
> > Shared ownership can be a good system,over here in Briton we call it
> > syndicate ownership.
> > Not only does it reduce the cost it means that there is at least one person
> >
> > that has an interest in helping to rig,retreave and de rig .
> > It helps if you are friends but as long as you can get on its not
> > necessary.
> > It does mean the choice of ships is different because you have more money
> > but you both have to agree.
> > Jon
>
> 10.5 years in UK in two tours. Our syndicates were generally 4-way, often with one non-active partner. Yes kept costs down. Always an available seat. IIRC, at the end of my first 4.5 years I had logged at least 30 makes/models. Only 4-5 new during the second tour, but a lot more XC as I had I had interests in three gliders at one point; one wholly owned, one 3-way, and another 4-way.
>
> In my own case, I made myself known at the glider port and got to know the other member pilots and their flying skills pretty well. That sort of engagement facilitates entering and leaving syndicates.
>
> Frank Whiteley

I would add that in those days, you got trained by be engaged. Training was not done as a convenience, it was first come, first served. So if you arrived and put your name on the list, then helped rig the fleet (yes, a daily task), you might get a second lesson by getting your name back on the list after the first lesson. That mean the students were there all day and many members adjourned to the local pub for the evening. Some of the larger clubs had on-field amenities, which helped finance things also. That level of engagement made it much easier to form syndicate groups and allowed for a reasonable assessment of those in the group as participants.

Frank W

[Pete[_9_]]

I own a DG 100
Glider $15,000
Insurance $800/yr
Storage $30/month
Annual $100/yr
Property taxes: $300/yr (varies greatly depending on where you live)

Knock on wood but I've owned it for almost 4 years and have had zero maintenance costs.

So, owning your own glider is a CHEAP way to fly. DON'T hesitate to buy a glider, DO hesitate to buy an expensive glider because it costs more at every level. Further, when the gelcoat starts cracking on your newer glider, its value will be significantly impacted. Buy something with 30:1 that is glass (even in poor shape) and 15 meters. That's all you need to get a Gold badge and then some.
DG 100
ASW 15
ASW 19
Russia AC4
LS-1

Pilots win contests with these gliders, you can too!

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

[Renny[_2_]]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider.. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
>
> And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
>
> You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days.. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

[[email protected]]

There's one expense no one has mentioned: refinishing. If your glider is finished in polyester gel coat, it will eventually require refinishing, a $20,000 to $30,000+ expense if you pay an expert, less to much less if you can do it all or partly by yourself (an inducement to own it with the right, mechanically handy partner).

Yes, that's more than some gliders are worth. And over the life of the glider, it's not bad: maybe $1,000 to $1,500 per year. But if you buy a 15-year-old glider and the gel coat is already starting to craze and crack, you're probably amortizing it over 5, not 20 years. And you won't get nearly that investment back when you sell it.

How long gel coat lasts depends on the quality of what's on there now, the materials used, the environment in which the glider is stored, and (according to many) whether you do a lot of high-altitude flying with cold-soak/warming cycles and flexing-while-brittle hours. Some pilots keep flying them long after the gel coat is literally flaking off, but there are other problems with this.

Some gliders seem to show signs of aging in a few years. Others go a lot longer. Some brands/types of gel coat last longer. If the glider is finished in polyurethane, it may not need refinishing in your lifetime. Of course, all this applies only to composite, not metal or wood construction.

There's a lot of discussion about what is the best glider to buy, especially for first timers. Three big factors from my perspective are:

1. Quality of the finish: glider maintenance is relatively inexpensive...with this exception
2. Quality of the trailer: you'll fly more--and avoid stupid assembly damage--if it's easier to rig
3. Instruments: you can upgrade to the latest whizzy gadgets but it's nice if someone else has already done the install and debugging work. And you don't need the latest stuff to fly XC or even competition.

IMHO.

Chip Bearden

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
> >
> > And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
> >
> > You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.
>
> Bruce,
> Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
> Thanks - Renny

http://soar.co.nz/index.php/about-us/#_ourfleet

I can't immediately find the member's fees list on the (again!) reorganized web site, but that's about what it was last I checked. That's in addition for the approx $500 annual dues everyone pays.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
> >
> > And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
> >
> > You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.
>
> Bruce,
> Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
> Thanks - Renny

Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.

http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Wellington-Gliding-Club-Schedule-of-Fees-Final-25-08-18.pdf

Near the bottom:

Glider Incentive Schemes

All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.

Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

[Renny[_2_]]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > > > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > > > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
> > >
> > > And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
> > >
> > > You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.
> >
> > Bruce,
> > Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
> > Thanks - Renny
>
> Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.
>
> http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Wellington-Gliding-Club-Schedule-of-Fees-Final-25-08-18.pdf
>
> Near the bottom:
>
> Glider Incentive Schemes
>
> All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.
>
> Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

Bruce,
Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!

Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!

Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
Thx - Renny

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 2:23:31 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > > > > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > > > > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
> > > >
> > > > And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
> > > >
> > > > You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.
> > >
> > > Bruce,
> > > Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
> > > Thanks - Renny
> >
> > Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.
> >
> > http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Wellington-Gliding-Club-Schedule-of-Fees-Final-25-08-18.pdf
> >
> > Near the bottom:
> >
> > Glider Incentive Schemes
> >
> > All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.
> >
> > Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply
>
> Bruce,
> Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!
>
> Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!
>
> Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
> Thx - Renny

Yes, and it's a great mystery to the rest of us why USA clubs choose to be so poorly equipped!!

NZ clubs mostly switched to training in glass ships such as the Grob Twin Astir from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, and my club sold the (well used when we bought them in 1995 or so) Twin Astirs and Janus around 2005 and bought the two brand new DG1000 "Club" aircraft. They were the first two actually made by DG -- they'd been on the price list for some years but everyone else who tried to buy one was successfully upsold! After we had ours for a few years, suddenly several airforces around the world (including USAF) started putting in big orders for them! Great aircraft.

At the prices in that PDF every piece of equipment brings in enough money to firstly pay back the loan use to buy it, and secondly for maintainance, insurance etc. The Gliders, winch (/towplane), and clubhouse are all their own profit centers without cross-subsidisation.

Here's a recent video of a training flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDwieA2Hzw

This is a nice video, though for some reason whoever made it decided to not make it obvious to the casual observer that the actual flight is in the (other club at the same site's) 13!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7dxhB6zd4

[Renny[_2_]]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 5:36:17 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 2:23:31 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
> > > > > > Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
> > > > > > The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.
> > > > >
> > > > > And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?
> > > > >
> > > > > You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.
> > > >
> > > > Bruce,
> > > > Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
> > > > Thanks - Renny
> > >
> > > Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.
> > >
> > > http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Wellington-Gliding-Club-Schedule-of-Fees-Final-25-08-18.pdf
> > >
> > > Near the bottom:
> > >
> > > Glider Incentive Schemes
> > >
> > > All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.
> > >
> > > Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply
> >
> > Bruce,
> > Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!
> >
> > Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!
> >
> > Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
> > Thx - Renny
>
> Yes, and it's a great mystery to the rest of us why USA clubs choose to be so poorly equipped!!
>
> NZ clubs mostly switched to training in glass ships such as the Grob Twin Astir from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, and my club sold the (well used when we bought them in 1995 or so) Twin Astirs and Janus around 2005 and bought the two brand new DG1000 "Club" aircraft. They were the first two actually made by DG -- they'd been on the price list for some years but everyone else who tried to buy one was successfully upsold! After we had ours for a few years, suddenly several airforces around the world (including USAF) started putting in big orders for them! Great aircraft.
>
> At the prices in that PDF every piece of equipment brings in enough money to firstly pay back the loan use to buy it, and secondly for maintainance, insurance etc. The Gliders, winch (/towplane), and clubhouse are all their own profit centers without cross-subsidisation.
>
> Here's a recent video of a training flight:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDwieA2Hzw
>
> This is a nice video, though for some reason whoever made it decided to not make it obvious to the casual observer that the actual flight is in the (other club at the same site's) 13!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7dxhB6zd4

Bruce,
Indeed, the "mystery...." I will save my "deep thoughts" on that subject for another day, but perhaps others will want to comment on this US club fleet "mystery." Now, at this point I normally start referring to "The X-Files" and "The Twilight Zone," in order to provide some entertainment value for the readers of this soaring forum, but I will save those references for another time... ;-)
Thanks, Bruce....
Renny

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Out of Truckee there is a club with a DG 505 or 500.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:48:53 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Out of Truckee there is a club with a DG 505 or 500.

I think you may be thinking of the Hollister based club that relocates to other sites during the season. They own a DG1000 and DG505 plus a couple of singles. That club doesn't train or tow their members, using commercial operators for those services.

A quick look shows there are
64 ASK-21's on the FAA registry.
48 owned by clubs, perhaps others are leased to clubs. One appears to be in a private club.

18 DG-500/505's total
3 owned by clubs, perhaps 1 or 2 leased to clubs.

35 DG-1000/1001
2 in clubs it appears, 19 at USAFA

6 SZD-50
3 in clubs

33 Duo Discus
5 in clubs

Quite a number of the above not in clubs are owned by individuals, some in LLC's and the rest by commercial operators and some in non-profit flight schools.

I'm told the SZD-54 manufacturer isn't bothered with a US STC because they are selling enough in Europe. There is an STC in Canada. I was also told German clubs are replacing their high time K-21's with SZD-54's.

Frank Whiteley

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:20:26 AM UTC+3, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> I'm told the SZD-54 manufacturer isn't bothered with a US STC because they are selling enough in Europe. There is an STC in Canada. I was also told German clubs are replacing their high time K-21's with SZD-54's.

Looks nice. About 4 points lower LD than DG1000 in both wingspans, but if it's significantly cheaper...

At the time we got our DG1000s it was I believe 60k for ASK21 and 70K for DG1000 (Euros). The difference in performance with all else being essentially equal made the 10k seem obviously worth it.

[Rich Owen[_2_]]

At Seminole-Lake Gliderport in Orlando we have a DG LLC that includes a DG-1000T, DG-800S, and an LS-8-18. These aircraft are all in a hangar assembled. We have 12 partners who payed $30k for entry and we divide all bills by 12 so our annual expense for everything is $1,500-$1,700 a year. Since the glider operation is open 6 days a week, we are lucky. The season in Florida is basically year round. Ships are allowed to go to contests and on the road for fun events. Only 2 out of 3 ships were in the Seniors which is a contest at our home field. It is rare that all 3 ships are flying at the same time. We have had members as far away as England or Iowa. With apartments available at the gliderport, our members from outside the area come in for a few days. We give preference to the out of towners for which aircraft they want to fly but that has never been a problem. Got friends to fly, take the 1000. Want to go XC, take the ship closest to the hangar door. We have been running for 10 years usually with a waiting list. When you're ready to leave, you sell the membership. So your glider experience costs $30k in $30k out and $1,700 a year for 3 high performance glass ships. Just for comparison, I also own an ASG-29Es and just my insurance bill is $2,200 a year! The LLC makes good sense. As always, you have to find what fits for you. This is just another example of how other soaring pilots found a more cost effective way to fly high performance gliders.
Rich Owen

[Tom BravoMike]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:23:30 AM UTC-5, Rich Owen wrote:
> At Seminole-Lake Gliderport in Orlando we have a DG LLC that includes a DG-1000T, DG-800S, and an LS-8-18. These aircraft are all in a hangar assembled. We have 12 partners who payed $30k for entry and we divide all bills by 12 so our annual expense for everything is $1,500-$1,700 a year. Since the glider operation is open 6 days a week, we are lucky. The season in Florida is basically year round. Ships are allowed to go to contests and on the road for fun events. Only 2 out of 3 ships were in the Seniors which is a contest at our home field. It is rare that all 3 ships are flying at the same time. We have had members as far away as England or Iowa. With apartments available at the gliderport, our members from outside the area come in for a few days. We give preference to the out of towners for which aircraft they want to fly but that has never been a problem. Got friends to fly, take the 1000. Want to go XC, take the ship closest to the hangar door. We have been running for 10 years usually with a waiting list. When you're ready to leave, you sell the membership. So your glider experience costs $30k in $30k out and $1,700 a year for 3 high performance glass ships. Just for comparison, I also own an ASG-29Es and just my insurance bill is $2,200 a year! The LLC makes good sense. As always, you have to find what fits for you. This is just another example of how other soaring pilots found a more cost effective way to fly high performance gliders.
> Rich Owen

Seminole is one of my favorite places to soar, especially in "out of season" months in the northern states. But let us not forget in the calculations the additional cost of flying in to Orlando from England or Iowa. The good news is that thanks to the Disney World those air tickets seem to be subsidized and kept quite low.

Tom BravoMike

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 11:20:26 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:48:53 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > Out of Truckee there is a club with a DG 505 or 500.
>
> I think you may be thinking of the Hollister based club that relocates to other sites during the season. They own a DG1000 and DG505 plus a couple of singles. That club doesn't train or tow their members, using commercial operators for those services.
>
> A quick look shows there are
> 64 ASK-21's on the FAA registry.
> 48 owned by clubs, perhaps others are leased to clubs. One appears to be in a private club.
>
> 18 DG-500/505's total
> 3 owned by clubs, perhaps 1 or 2 leased to clubs.
>
> 35 DG-1000/1001
> 2 in clubs it appears, 19 at USAFA
>
> 6 SZD-50
> 3 in clubs
>
> 33 Duo Discus
> 5 in clubs
>
> Quite a number of the above not in clubs are owned by individuals, some in LLC's and the rest by commercial operators and some in non-profit flight schools.
>
> I'm told the SZD-54 manufacturer isn't bothered with a US STC because they are selling enough in Europe. There is an STC in Canada. I was also told German clubs are replacing their high time K-21's with SZD-54's.
>
> Frank Whiteley

Forgot the PW-6U

9 on the registry
6 in clubs

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I have found that if my budget is humble or extravagant I spend every penny I can beg borrow or steal, always a bit more than I have budgeted. Budget are for married or responsible people. However, whatever your budget is there is a way to get in the air on a regular basis. My home glider port rents 1-26's and 2-33 for next to nothing, the cost of the tow being the biggest cost, about $50. Funny how flying is now cheaper than skiing. Clubs like the ones mentioned above are extremely good deals. I would think the biggest cost of ownership/ flying is the cost of tows, which in itself is still a great deal, but figure 40 tows at $50 for the year, or $2,000.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 11:45:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I have found that if my budget is humble or extravagant I spend every penny I can beg borrow or steal, always a bit more than I have budgeted. Budget are for married or responsible people. However, whatever your budget is there is a way to get in the air on a regular basis. My home glider port rents 1-26's and 2-33 for next to nothing, the cost of the tow being the biggest cost, about $50. Funny how flying is now cheaper than skiing. Clubs like the ones mentioned above are extremely good deals. I would think the biggest cost of ownership/ flying is the cost of tows, which in itself is still a great deal, but figure 40 tows at $50 for the year, or $2,000.

A winch is a license to print money for a club. (not my quote)