First Two Aero Lessons This Weekend (Long)

[David B. Cole]

Well I just returned from my second acro lesson in as many days and
all I can say is that I'm wiped out. Having an opportunity to fly
with Rich Stowell on two occasions and performing a number of spins
and other maneuvers certainly helped with endurance.

The airport that I flew from is Van Sant in Erwinna PA, just across
the Delaware River from Frenchtown NJ and about 50 miles north of
Philly. This is a gorgeous area with numerous 18th and 19th century
homes and old mills dotting the riverside. The airport is inhabited
by a number of beautiful planes including a Great Lakes, Cub, Super
Cub, a couple of Stearmans, and a number of planes I didn't recognize.
I also witnessed my first glider tows, followed by another, then
another. The gliders are extremely graceful and it was almost
impossible to resist looking as they soared skyward following the tow
plane as it provided it with its precious source of energy.

I too wanted to go for a glider ride, but today my destiny was with
the Super Decathlon, a plane that I had flown before. I met Azar the
owner and after talking for a few we discussed my goals and he
reviewed my logbook and the maneuvers that I had already had flown.
After that we headed out to the plane and performed a preflight,
followed by a safety discussion regarding the chutes and other
matters. It wasn't long before we had the plane started and were
taxiing over the very rough and hilly field on the way to the runway,
which itself was as bumpy as the "taxiway" we had taken to get there.

After takeoff we headed out over the Delaware where Azar asked me to
perform a loop. No big deal, as I had performed one recently with
Rich and they were still fresh in my head. Just about 4G's and my
final altitude was within 100' of my starting altitude. Azar told me
that it felt right, so I didn't complain. He walked me through an
aileron roll, which I proceeded to botch. The problem was that I
wasn't giving it full aileron due to the cramped conditions and my
legs getting in the way, plus I wasn't pushing the stick gradually
forward near knife edge and therefore pushing too hard while inverted,
which isn't the most comfortable feeling. Azar demonstrated a few
after which I followed, and they started to improve. He also
performed a two point roll, stopping at inverted to show me where the
nose should be. I then realized that inverted flight would take some
getting used to.

After a few additional loops and steadily improving aileron rolls we
strung together a loop followed immediately by an aileron roll, which
was cool. That was followed by a half Cuban 8 which I managed to
execute without too much butchering. Before heading back he
demonstrated a couple of barrel rolls, which are a nice gentle
maneuver and a good way to start winding down the first lesson. On
the way back to the airport Azar asked me to demonstrate a few spins,
which I did with no problem. The first was only a one turn spin so on
the second he asked me to make it a two-turn so that I could really
see it spin up. Again I recovered with no problem and I think he was
pleased with the spins and the session overall. I made a good
three-point landing on the grass with 1 hour on the Hobbs.

Today we started with loops, but spent most of the time doing ailerons
rolls and two point rolls to really help me get used to being upside
down. Hanging by the straps is certainly something I will have to get
acclimated to, I'm just glad I listened and tightened the straps. To
help convince me that I wouldn't fall out of my seat Azar put the
plane on its back for a few seconds and then had me place my hands on
my head. Those straps really do work huh? As with the previous day
we combined a loop with an aileron roll, but instead of doing a half
Cuban 8 we combined two a did a full Cuban 8. Again, very nice.

He also introduced the Immelmann, which became the maneuver of choice
when we wanted to reverse direction. Yesterday we also performed a
hammerhead and while it was my second time doing one, it was much
worse than my first attempt. But today we worked on those as well and
I managed to get it under better control.

What I found most difficult with the Immelmann and the half Cuban was
determining when to push forward on the stick to arrest the loop
before rolling without some coaching. With regards to aileron rolls
it's a matter of not being timid with the aileron deflection and
getting the stick forward before reaching inverted in order to prevent
large negative G. In summary I had a great time and look forward to
continuing. Azar's plan was to introduce most of the maneuvers within
the first few lessons and then start to fine tune them. I've
therefore pulled Goulian's "Basic Aerobatics", Kershner's aerobatics
manual, and Rich's aerobatics tape from their respective storage units
and will chair fly given my experience from the last two days.


Thanks to Tom Parsons for his help and to Rich for helping start the
addiction.

Dave

[Dave Russell]

(David B. Cole) wrote in message >...
> Thanks to Tom Parsons for his help and to Rich for helping start the
> addiction.

Dave,

Welcome! It's great to read a story about somebody taking the step up
to inverted and having so much fun doing it. We used to call Erwinna
"Van Slant", and Azar is a truly wonderful guy.

My first few inverted sessions convinced me that there should be an
inverted "fudge factor" of about 7 (i.e., -1 on the g-meter really
means -7). Pretty soon you'll be pushing a couple without noticing it
much... but I've yet to meet anyone that pushes -3 or more and claims
it's fun or easy. :-|

Once you get those aileron rolls down really well in the Super D, get
Azar to take you for a ride in the Stearman and try one. It's a
humbling experience, to say the least.

If you should find a 12-step program for areobatic pilots, please
don't tell my wife about it.

-Dave Russell
8KCAB / N2S-3

[David B. Cole]

Dave,

Thanks for the welcome, it is certainly appreciated. It's also great
to meet someone else who has shared the same experiences at "Van
Slant" (Funny, but true)with Azar. I look forward to becoming more
comfortable with negative G and inverted flight without having my feet
fall off the pedals. With regard to flying aileron rolls in the
Stearman, I can only imagine how challenging they must be given the
slow roll rate. But I hope to go up in the Stearman when Spring
arrives, as this will certainly be a spectacular way to round out my
first aerobatic experiences.

Dave

(Dave Russell) wrote in message >...
> Dave,
>
> Welcome! It's great to read a story about somebody taking the step up
> to inverted and having so much fun doing it. We used to call Erwinna
> "Van Slant", and Azar is a truly wonderful guy.
>
> My first few inverted sessions convinced me that there should be an
> inverted "fudge factor" of about 7 (i.e., -1 on the g-meter really
> means -7). Pretty soon you'll be pushing a couple without noticing it
> much... but I've yet to meet anyone that pushes -3 or more and claims
> it's fun or easy. :-|
>
> Once you get those aileron rolls down really well in the Super D, get
> Azar to take you for a ride in the Stearman and try one. It's a
> humbling experience, to say the least.
>
> If you should find a 12-step program for areobatic pilots, please
> don't tell my wife about it.
>
> -Dave Russell
> 8KCAB / N2S-3

[Andrew Boyd]

Dave Russell wrote:

> I've yet to meet anyone that pushes -3 or more and claims
> it's fun or easy. :-|

Well, you just met one :-) Most serious (Advanced and Unlimited
category) dot-pilots routinely push at least -5G. Some airshow pilots
(you should see Skip Stewart and Jim Leroy fly the square outside
knife-edge turn) push considerably more than that.

Negative G is a whole different world than positive G. Positive
G by itself is quite pleasant - the more, the merrier. Negative G
requires that you relax, and I recommend that you take your time and
slowly build your tolerance by increasing 0.5G increments over a
period of a couple years. Most people aren't patient enough, though,
and often end up screwing themselves up (see wobblies).

After a while, a -3G or -4G push feels about the same as bending
over to tie your shoelaces (really). My normal takeoff now is
a half-roll inverted, accelerate level to 140 mph, then push up to
an outside 1/2 cuban-eight, half-roll on the 45 down back to
inverted, push to level inverted over the runway again, then push up
again to an inverted 45 up and do an 8-of-4-point roll back to the
inverted, then pull through the reverse 1/2 cuban-eight over the
the runway again, this time upright :-) :-)

Pushing -3G is really not very much. What you want to avoid is a
good pull right after a good push. Pulling +6G (or more) is a piece
of cake, but immediately after a push it's a receipe for sleepy-time,
at least for most of us anyways. Wasn't there an F-20 demo crash in
Europe a few years back? The pilot flew -1G inverted straight and
level, then rolled upright and pulled +9G. He blacked out. Turned
out he was on some iffy medication, IIRC.

Anyways, one maneuver I love is a series of 4-pt rolls on the 45
downline, then push level inverted at the surface, then a 1/2 outside
loop push up to the upright, then an 1/2 outside snap back to inverted
at the top, then a 1/2 inside loop pull down to the surface again, but
it's a bit dicey from a G-loc standpoint - you go right from a -3G (or
more) push to a +5G (or more) pull.

--
aboyd ATP www.pittspecials.com/images/takeoff.jpg

[Ed H]

Sounds great. Welcome to the club. Be careful that you don't get addicted.
I did.

A few general and Decathlon-specific tips to help you:

1. Don't worry about being wiped out, or airsickness. After my first 2
lessons, I had to go home, turn out the lights, and lay down for a few hours
to recover. Within 5 to 10 flights, you will not feel tired at all after a
sortie.

2. The trick to doing a nice roll in the Decathlon is to pitch the nose up
a bit just as you start the roll. Not much at all, just goose the stick
back for a second right as you start to roll, and move it forward to neutral
as you reach full aileron displacement. Then you don't have to push the
nose up when inverted; you just have to keep it up. That is the difference
between a -2G and a -1G roll in the Decathlon. Also, don't use top rudder
on the first knife edge, and use plenty of top rudder on the second knife
edge. Finally, pick a distant terrain feature on the horizon and use it to
keep on heading as you roll.

3. If the owner will let you, mark your windscreen with 2 pieces of tape to
show you where the horizon should be; one for upright, one for inverted.
Trim the aircraft for level flight at roll entry speed, then put the tape on
the vertical metal frame in the center of the windscreen, to mark where it
meets the horizon. Do the same inverted. Make sure the aircraft is in
straight and level inverted flight, not losing any altitude, then mark the
horizon. Imagine a circle between these two pieces of tape. That's what
you roll around.

4. When you apply the ailerons in a roll, concentrate on feeling the stick
go all the way to the control stop. Same for elevator and rudder inputs in
a spin.

5. There are two general approaches to rollout on the immelman. Both use a
visual cue. For the standard by the book immelman, come forward with the
stick in time to stop the horizon right on your inverted tape mark, then
roll. For competition, to avoid getting docked for "drawing a line", start
the roll when the horizon is about halfway between the top of the windscreen
and the inverted tape mark, or a bit sooner. Don't use any forward stick,
and the nose will fall to a perfect level attitude as you reach upright
flight.

6. For the cuban, do you have a sight gauge? If so, look out your wing at
the sight gauge and come forward briskly with the stick just as you reach 45
degrees inverted. Hold it a second, then roll. As you roll, look out the
top of the greenhouse roof and align the horizon with the frame member
between the greenhouse roof and the windscreen. That helps you hold your 45
line, and also ensures you roll all the way around. Hold a split second,
then pull out.

7. For reverse cubans, use the frame between the greenhouse roof and
windscreen as a guide to set the 45 inverted upline. Pull to 45, hold a
split second, then roll and align the frame member with the horizon. Again,
this helps you to avoid over or under rolling.

8. Join the IAC and take up competition at the sportsman level. With about
15 hours of lessons and practice you could fly your first meet and have a
great time. It will force you to learn all kinds of details about how to
fly the maneuvers that you will never pick up if you just go out and fling
yourself around. Not that there's anything wrong with flinging yourself
around. :)

Keep having a great time!

Ed Haywood


"David B. Cole" > wrote in message
m...
> Well I just returned from my second acro lesson in as many days and
> all I can say is that I'm wiped out. Having an opportunity to fly
> with Rich Stowell on two occasions and performing a number of spins
> and other maneuvers certainly helped with endurance.
>
> The airport that I flew from is Van Sant in Erwinna PA, just across
> the Delaware River from Frenchtown NJ and about 50 miles north of
> Philly. This is a gorgeous area with numerous 18th and 19th century
> homes and old mills dotting the riverside. The airport is inhabited
> by a number of beautiful planes including a Great Lakes, Cub, Super
> Cub, a couple of Stearmans, and a number of planes I didn't recognize.
> I also witnessed my first glider tows, followed by another, then
> another. The gliders are extremely graceful and it was almost
> impossible to resist looking as they soared skyward following the tow
> plane as it provided it with its precious source of energy.
>
> I too wanted to go for a glider ride, but today my destiny was with
> the Super Decathlon, a plane that I had flown before. I met Azar the
> owner and after talking for a few we discussed my goals and he
> reviewed my logbook and the maneuvers that I had already had flown.
> After that we headed out to the plane and performed a preflight,
> followed by a safety discussion regarding the chutes and other
> matters. It wasn't long before we had the plane started and were
> taxiing over the very rough and hilly field on the way to the runway,
> which itself was as bumpy as the "taxiway" we had taken to get there.
>
> After takeoff we headed out over the Delaware where Azar asked me to
> perform a loop. No big deal, as I had performed one recently with
> Rich and they were still fresh in my head. Just about 4G's and my
> final altitude was within 100' of my starting altitude. Azar told me
> that it felt right, so I didn't complain. He walked me through an
> aileron roll, which I proceeded to botch. The problem was that I
> wasn't giving it full aileron due to the cramped conditions and my
> legs getting in the way, plus I wasn't pushing the stick gradually
> forward near knife edge and therefore pushing too hard while inverted,
> which isn't the most comfortable feeling. Azar demonstrated a few
> after which I followed, and they started to improve. He also
> performed a two point roll, stopping at inverted to show me where the
> nose should be. I then realized that inverted flight would take some
> getting used to.
>
> After a few additional loops and steadily improving aileron rolls we
> strung together a loop followed immediately by an aileron roll, which
> was cool. That was followed by a half Cuban 8 which I managed to
> execute without too much butchering. Before heading back he
> demonstrated a couple of barrel rolls, which are a nice gentle
> maneuver and a good way to start winding down the first lesson. On
> the way back to the airport Azar asked me to demonstrate a few spins,
> which I did with no problem. The first was only a one turn spin so on
> the second he asked me to make it a two-turn so that I could really
> see it spin up. Again I recovered with no problem and I think he was
> pleased with the spins and the session overall. I made a good
> three-point landing on the grass with 1 hour on the Hobbs.
>
> Today we started with loops, but spent most of the time doing ailerons
> rolls and two point rolls to really help me get used to being upside
> down. Hanging by the straps is certainly something I will have to get
> acclimated to, I'm just glad I listened and tightened the straps. To
> help convince me that I wouldn't fall out of my seat Azar put the
> plane on its back for a few seconds and then had me place my hands on
> my head. Those straps really do work huh? As with the previous day
> we combined a loop with an aileron roll, but instead of doing a half
> Cuban 8 we combined two a did a full Cuban 8. Again, very nice.
>
> He also introduced the Immelmann, which became the maneuver of choice
> when we wanted to reverse direction. Yesterday we also performed a
> hammerhead and while it was my second time doing one, it was much
> worse than my first attempt. But today we worked on those as well and
> I managed to get it under better control.
>
> What I found most difficult with the Immelmann and the half Cuban was
> determining when to push forward on the stick to arrest the loop
> before rolling without some coaching. With regards to aileron rolls
> it's a matter of not being timid with the aileron deflection and
> getting the stick forward before reaching inverted in order to prevent
> large negative G. In summary I had a great time and look forward to
> continuing. Azar's plan was to introduce most of the maneuvers within
> the first few lessons and then start to fine tune them. I've
> therefore pulled Goulian's "Basic Aerobatics", Kershner's aerobatics
> manual, and Rich's aerobatics tape from their respective storage units
> and will chair fly given my experience from the last two days.
>
>
> Thanks to Tom Parsons for his help and to Rich for helping start the
> addiction.
>
> Dave

[Dave Russell]

(Andrew Boyd) wrote in message >...
>
> > I've yet to meet anyone that pushes -3 or more and claims
> > it's fun or easy. :-|
>
> Well, you just met one :-)

OK, one.... but anybody that flies formation aerobatics in a Pitts
might be considered a 'Special Case" (I can't believe that I really
typed that). :-)

Seriously, I've come to *really* appreciate the difficulty and talent
involved in formation airshow work. I once watched the Red Barron
solo guy reform from a hard, diving 90-degree turn behind the showline
(he made it look so damn EASY!) and spent the rest of the day totally
awed by that simple display of airmanship.

One day I'll trade the Stearman in on something with a big engine and
huge G limits, and you'll have to teach me that takeoff routine. :-)

-dave
8KCAB / N2S-3

[dave]

Great news. I got my private with Azher about twelve years ago. I
recently bought my own citabria and Azher did my insurance checkout. We
also did about a half hour of acro. Shortly before I bought the
citabria we went up in the great lakes for some acro. Great fun. It's
a little strange the first time you're upside down hanging from your
straps in an open cockpit. Try to get some time in the Stearman and
Tigermoth when the weather warms up. I've been up for short hops in
both and they're a lot of fun. We didn't do any acro however in those
old birds.

Good luck with the training!

Dave
68 7ECA

David B. Cole wrote:
> Well I just returned from my second acro lesson in as many days and
> all I can say is that I'm wiped out. Having an opportunity to fly
> with Rich Stowell on two occasions and performing a number of spins
> and other maneuvers certainly helped with endurance.
>
> The airport that I flew from is Van Sant in Erwinna PA, just across
> the Delaware River from Frenchtown NJ and about 50 miles north of
> Philly. This is a gorgeous area with numerous 18th and 19th century
> homes and old mills dotting the riverside. The airport is inhabited
> by a number of beautiful planes including a Great Lakes, Cub, Super
> Cub, a couple of Stearmans, and a number of planes I didn't recognize.
> I also witnessed my first glider tows, followed by another, then
> another. The gliders are extremely graceful and it was almost
> impossible to resist looking as they soared skyward following the tow
> plane as it provided it with its precious source of energy.
>
> I too wanted to go for a glider ride, but today my destiny was with
> the Super Decathlon, a plane that I had flown before. I met Azar the
> owner and after talking for a few we discussed my goals and he
> reviewed my logbook and the maneuvers that I had already had flown.
> After that we headed out to the plane and performed a preflight,
> followed by a safety discussion regarding the chutes and other
> matters. It wasn't long before we had the plane started and were
> taxiing over the very rough and hilly field on the way to the runway,
> which itself was as bumpy as the "taxiway" we had taken to get there.
>
> After takeoff we headed out over the Delaware where Azar asked me to
> perform a loop. No big deal, as I had performed one recently with
> Rich and they were still fresh in my head. Just about 4G's and my
> final altitude was within 100' of my starting altitude. Azar told me
> that it felt right, so I didn't complain. He walked me through an
> aileron roll, which I proceeded to botch. The problem was that I
> wasn't giving it full aileron due to the cramped conditions and my
> legs getting in the way, plus I wasn't pushing the stick gradually
> forward near knife edge and therefore pushing too hard while inverted,
> which isn't the most comfortable feeling. Azar demonstrated a few
> after which I followed, and they started to improve. He also
> performed a two point roll, stopping at inverted to show me where the
> nose should be. I then realized that inverted flight would take some
> getting used to.
>
> After a few additional loops and steadily improving aileron rolls we
> strung together a loop followed immediately by an aileron roll, which
> was cool. That was followed by a half Cuban 8 which I managed to
> execute without too much butchering. Before heading back he
> demonstrated a couple of barrel rolls, which are a nice gentle
> maneuver and a good way to start winding down the first lesson. On
> the way back to the airport Azar asked me to demonstrate a few spins,
> which I did with no problem. The first was only a one turn spin so on
> the second he asked me to make it a two-turn so that I could really
> see it spin up. Again I recovered with no problem and I think he was
> pleased with the spins and the session overall. I made a good
> three-point landing on the grass with 1 hour on the Hobbs.
>
> Today we started with loops, but spent most of the time doing ailerons
> rolls and two point rolls to really help me get used to being upside
> down. Hanging by the straps is certainly something I will have to get
> acclimated to, I'm just glad I listened and tightened the straps. To
> help convince me that I wouldn't fall out of my seat Azar put the
> plane on its back for a few seconds and then had me place my hands on
> my head. Those straps really do work huh? As with the previous day
> we combined a loop with an aileron roll, but instead of doing a half
> Cuban 8 we combined two a did a full Cuban 8. Again, very nice.
>
> He also introduced the Immelmann, which became the maneuver of choice
> when we wanted to reverse direction. Yesterday we also performed a
> hammerhead and while it was my second time doing one, it was much
> worse than my first attempt. But today we worked on those as well and
> I managed to get it under better control.
>
> What I found most difficult with the Immelmann and the half Cuban was
> determining when to push forward on the stick to arrest the loop
> before rolling without some coaching. With regards to aileron rolls
> it's a matter of not being timid with the aileron deflection and
> getting the stick forward before reaching inverted in order to prevent
> large negative G. In summary I had a great time and look forward to
> continuing. Azar's plan was to introduce most of the maneuvers within
> the first few lessons and then start to fine tune them. I've
> therefore pulled Goulian's "Basic Aerobatics", Kershner's aerobatics
> manual, and Rich's aerobatics tape from their respective storage units
> and will chair fly given my experience from the last two days.
>
>
> Thanks to Tom Parsons for his help and to Rich for helping start the
> addiction.
>
> Dave

[David B. Cole]

Ed,

Wow, that was a lot of great info. I certainly plan to incorporate as
much as I can, particularly the info on sighting angles.
Unfortunately we don't have a sight guage for use in the Cuban. Now
that I've read a little more, reflected on my lessons, and remembered
what Rich explained when I rolled with him, when doing the aileron
roll I shouldn't need that much of a push when hitting inverted if I
bring the nose up sufficiently before beginning the roll. In fact
that's the purpose of bringing the nose up in the first place if I'm
not mistaken. Bring the nose up to about 30 degrees, neutralize the
elevator, full aileron deflection, and just enough rudder to correct
for adverse yaw. You mention not using top rudder for the first knife
edge but to use it during the second knife edge. Is this for the
aileron roll or slow roll?

I know that for the slow roll we don't bring the nose up as we do in
the aileron roll, but start applying gradual forward pressure after
passing the first knife edge to keep the nose above the horizon and to
prevent the need for a large push while inverted. I also know that
top rudder is necessary for both the first and second knife edge in
this case. I certainly appreciate the advice and feel fortunate to
have such a great community to compliment my training. As I mentioned
the plan is to start refining the maneuvers and have more post-flight
discussion going forward. I'm currently looking to do about ten hours
and then move forward from there.

Dave
"Ed H" > wrote in message >...
> Sounds great. Welcome to the club. Be careful that you don't get addicted.
> I did.
>
> A few general and Decathlon-specific tips to help you:
>
> 1. Don't worry about being wiped out, or airsickness. After my first 2
> lessons, I had to go home, turn out the lights, and lay down for a few hours
> to recover. Within 5 to 10 flights, you will not feel tired at all after a
> sortie.
>
> 2. The trick to doing a nice roll in the Decathlon is to pitch the nose up
> a bit just as you start the roll. Not much at all, just goose the stick
> back for a second right as you start to roll, and move it forward to neutral
> as you reach full aileron displacement. Then you don't have to push the
> nose up when inverted; you just have to keep it up. That is the difference
> between a -2G and a -1G roll in the Decathlon. Also, don't use top rudder
> on the first knife edge, and use plenty of top rudder on the second knife
> edge. Finally, pick a distant terrain feature on the horizon and use it to
> keep on heading as you roll.
>
> 3. If the owner will let you, mark your windscreen with 2 pieces of tape to
> show you where the horizon should be; one for upright, one for inverted.
> Trim the aircraft for level flight at roll entry speed, then put the tape on
> the vertical metal frame in the center of the windscreen, to mark where it
> meets the horizon. Do the same inverted. Make sure the aircraft is in
> straight and level inverted flight, not losing any altitude, then mark the
> horizon. Imagine a circle between these two pieces of tape. That's what
> you roll around.
>
> 4. When you apply the ailerons in a roll, concentrate on feeling the stick
> go all the way to the control stop. Same for elevator and rudder inputs in
> a spin.
>
> 5. There are two general approaches to rollout on the immelman. Both use a
> visual cue. For the standard by the book immelman, come forward with the
> stick in time to stop the horizon right on your inverted tape mark, then
> roll. For competition, to avoid getting docked for "drawing a line", start
> the roll when the horizon is about halfway between the top of the windscreen
> and the inverted tape mark, or a bit sooner. Don't use any forward stick,
> and the nose will fall to a perfect level attitude as you reach upright
> flight.
>
> 6. For the cuban, do you have a sight gauge? If so, look out your wing at
> the sight gauge and come forward briskly with the stick just as you reach 45
> degrees inverted. Hold it a second, then roll. As you roll, look out the
> top of the greenhouse roof and align the horizon with the frame member
> between the greenhouse roof and the windscreen. That helps you hold your 45
> line, and also ensures you roll all the way around. Hold a split second,
> then pull out.
>
> 7. For reverse cubans, use the frame between the greenhouse roof and
> windscreen as a guide to set the 45 inverted upline. Pull to 45, hold a
> split second, then roll and align the frame member with the horizon. Again,
> this helps you to avoid over or under rolling.
>
> 8. Join the IAC and take up competition at the sportsman level. With about
> 15 hours of lessons and practice you could fly your first meet and have a
> great time. It will force you to learn all kinds of details about how to
> fly the maneuvers that you will never pick up if you just go out and fling
> yourself around. Not that there's anything wrong with flinging yourself
> around. :)
>
> Keep having a great time!
>
> Ed Haywood
>
>
>

[David B. Cole]

Dave,

Congrats on purchasing the Citabria. It's already my intention to go
up in the Stearman this Spring. :-)

Dave

dave > wrote in message >...
> Great news. I got my private with Azher about twelve years ago. I
> recently bought my own citabria and Azher did my insurance checkout. We
> also did about a half hour of acro. Shortly before I bought the
> citabria we went up in the great lakes for some acro. Great fun. It's
> a little strange the first time you're upside down hanging from your
> straps in an open cockpit. Try to get some time in the Stearman and
> Tigermoth when the weather warms up. I've been up for short hops in
> both and they're a lot of fun. We didn't do any acro however in those
> old birds.
>
> Good luck with the training!
>
> Dave
> 68 7ECA
>

[DSowder]

>> I've yet to meet anyone that pushes -3 or more and claims
>> it's fun or easy. :-|
>
>Well, you just met one :-) Most serious (Advanced and Unlimited
>category) dot-pilots routinely push at least -5G.

Well, meet another one. For some reason, the outside stuff is more addictive
than the inside!

Andrew, it looks like your third S-2B has a black propeller, while the other
two have the white one. I know you've written about this before. I've been
thinking about upgrading my white propeller from 200 cm blades to the new
203's, but if I were rich, would I like the black propeller better?

Doug Sowder

[Tom Parsons]

Dave-

> You mention not using top rudder for the first knife
> edge but to use it during the second knife edge. Is this for the
> aileron roll or slow roll?

I think the rudder advice should work for both. The reason for the
difference in rudder on the first vs. second knife edge is that adverse
yaw actually helps keep the nose up on the first knife edge, so less
rudder is required then. But on the second knife edge, adverse yaw is
working against you, pushing the nose down and requiring more top rudder
to keep it up.

Tom P.

[Andrew Boyd]

DSowder wrote:

> Andrew, it looks like your third S-2B has a black propeller, while the other
> two have the white one. I know you've written about this before. I've been
> thinking about upgrading my white propeller from 200 cm blades to the new
> 203's, but if I were rich, would I like the black propeller better?

Hm. If money is no object, you might go with the (counterweighted)
78-inch, fat-chord (black blade) Hartzell claw, which provides just
a bit more slow-speed thrust than the (80 inch) 203cm MT, at a cost
of a bit more drag at the top end (and thus slower speed - perhaps 5 mph).

The claw blades are simply indestructible compared to the delicate MTs,
but the claw is noticeably heavier than the MT. TANSTAAFL.

However, the price is eye-watering: last I heard it was $55,000 list
for the claw, vs perhaps $11,000 for the MT.

Have you checked out the rumoured scimitar MT blades? If you want to
get new blades, check them out.

Ever looked at the whirlwind props? For your experimental/exhibition
Pitts, it's a choice worth looking at - the blades look similar to
the claw.

--
aboyd ATP www.pittspecials.com/images/climbout.jpg

[Ed H]

In the Decathlon, it depends on the airspeed. The Decathlon ailerons aren't
very powerful. At low airspeeds, the rudder is more powerful than the
ailerons because the rudder gets propwash and the ailerons don't. Using top
rudder on the first knife edge works against the ailerons. At very low
airspeeds, it can slow or almost stop the roll in the knife edge.

The only basic maneuver where this comes into play is the Split S, with an
entry speed of 85 mph. It is also a factor in any sequence that has a roll
immediately after a climbing maneuver, like the 2004 Sportsman.

At normal roll entry speed, it's not as big a deal. But it does slow down
the roll rate a bit, and it makes my rolls sloppy. I'm finding that kipping
the nose up about 5 degrees and not compensating for adverse yaw is enough
to keep the nose up until I get past the first knife edge. Works good at
any speed, so I just do all my rolls the same.

You do need quite a bit of rudder on the second knife edge, reducing it
somewhat as you finish the roll, but holding some rudder until you center
the stick.

All of the above taught me by Adam Cope, a very experienced and skilled
Decathlon driver. These comments ONLY apply to the Decathlon.



"Tom Parsons" > wrote in message
...
> Dave-
>
>> You mention not using top rudder for the first knife
>> edge but to use it during the second knife edge. Is this for the
>> aileron roll or slow roll?
>
> I think the rudder advice should work for both. The reason for the
> difference in rudder on the first vs. second knife edge is that adverse
> yaw actually helps keep the nose up on the first knife edge, so less
> rudder is required then. But on the second knife edge, adverse yaw is
> working against you, pushing the nose down and requiring more top rudder
> to keep it up.
>
> Tom P.