Winch design

[c1rrus]

One for the mechanically minded out there.

Our club is currently constructing a double drum winch. More accurately
I should say - re-constructing as said winch is based on, and uses the
major components of an old single drum winch.

The design is of the trailer with a V8 vehicle transmission attached type.
Ford 352W (2V) engine
3 Speed automatic transmission
Modified differential feeding power to drums attached to the half shafts.
Drums are steel units with the large base diameter and narrow aperture
suitable for our 2.75mm single strand medium carbon spring steel cable.

Having become involved in resurrecting the project after it's
originators left the club and the winch lay derelict for some years I am
not at all confident that the power transmission mechanism is safe,
durable or desirable.

Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
refer to it as a dog clutch)
This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.

One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
engineers had his treatment in mind...
Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.

There is no way we can afford a modern commercial winch, but this does
not mean we should not make a better attempt at out homebuilt. Would
appreciate the opportunity to learn from the experience out there. We
need input on transmission paths, materials, controls and probably many
things we have not thought of yet.

The engine and gearbox are standard , reliable and have been competently
overhauled. For the rest, the only decently engineered parts of the
project are the drums , which are solid, accurately made and balanced.
The rest would be very familiar to Messrs Heath and Robinson...

Any help gladly received.

[Bill Daniels]

"c1rrus" > wrote in message
...


> Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
> refer to it as a dog clutch)
> This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
> centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
> There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>
> One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
> on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
> engineers had his treatment in mind...
> Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>

Can you post some photos of this somewhere?

Bill Daniels

[Keith W]

>
> Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
> refer to it as a dog clutch)
> This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
> centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
> There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>
> One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
> on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
> engineers had his treatment in mind...
> Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>
This doesn't necessarily mean that you will have problems. The Cornish
Gliding Club has a winch based on a similar design, and it has provided good
service for many years (only problems have been with the engine). The
hassle of getting out between launches to physically change the driven side
keeps the winch driver fit! 8-)

Keith

[Ulrich Neumann]

c1rrus > wrote in message >...
> One for the mechanically minded out there.
>
> Our club is currently constructing a double drum winch. More accurately
> I should say - re-constructing as said winch is based on, and uses the
> major components of an old single drum winch.
>
> The design is of the trailer with a V8 vehicle transmission attached type.
> Ford 352W (2V) engine
> 3 Speed automatic transmission
> Modified differential feeding power to drums attached to the half shafts.
> Drums are steel units with the large base diameter and narrow aperture
> suitable for our 2.75mm single strand medium carbon spring steel cable.
>
> Having become involved in resurrecting the project after it's
> originators left the club and the winch lay derelict for some years I am
> not at all confident that the power transmission mechanism is safe,
> durable or desirable.
>
> Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
> refer to it as a dog clutch)
> This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
> centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
> There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>
> One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
> on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
> engineers had his treatment in mind...
> Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>
> There is no way we can afford a modern commercial winch, but this does
> not mean we should not make a better attempt at out homebuilt. Would
> appreciate the opportunity to learn from the experience out there. We
> need input on transmission paths, materials, controls and probably many
> things we have not thought of yet.
>
> The engine and gearbox are standard , reliable and have been competently
> overhauled. For the rest, the only decently engineered parts of the
> project are the drums , which are solid, accurately made and balanced.
> The rest would be very familiar to Messrs Heath and Robinson...
>
> Any help gladly received.


Hi Cirrus,

I am in the process of investigating the different technical aspects
of building a winch. So far, I have several reports that indicate
using an axle - specially one from a commom pick-up truck - in the way
you described it, is a sure way of heading for a desaster. The
differential gear has to be locked out by welding the spider gears
solid. You can find references about this on the net. Keep in mind
that doing this will change the gear ratio. Your drums will most
likely spin slower at a given input shaft speed than with the
differential spinning. To keep the design simple, you may want to
consider just a single drum design.

To keep the cable from piling up on the center of the drum, keep the
distance between the fairlead and the drum as long as possible. German
regulations require a distance of at least 18 times the width of drum
between the drum and the fairlead to be operated without a level-wind
mechanism.
Do you have well functioning guilliotins capable of hacking through at
least two cables in one trial?

Happy winching,

Uli Neumann
Libelle 'GM'

[Bruce]

Hi Bill

will put some pictures of the sorry heap on our club website. Just have
to get to it to take them. Will post here once they are up.

Thanks
Bruce Greeff

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "c1rrus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>
>>Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
>>refer to it as a dog clutch)
>>This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
>>centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
>>There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>>
>>One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
>>on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
>>engineers had his treatment in mind...
>>Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>>
>
>
> Can you post some photos of this somewhere?
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Bruce]

Hi Keith

What is your shaft diameter? Ours looks woefully inadequate - I have not
measured it but the Mk 1 eyeball indicates around 30mm (slightly more
than one inch)

Bruce

Keith W wrote:

>>Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
>>refer to it as a dog clutch)
>>This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
>>centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
>>There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>>
>>One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
>>on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
>>engineers had his treatment in mind...
>>Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>>
>
> This doesn't necessarily mean that you will have problems. The Cornish
> Gliding Club has a winch based on a similar design, and it has provided good
> service for many years (only problems have been with the engine). The
> hassle of getting out between launches to physically change the driven side
> keeps the winch driver fit! 8-)
>
> Keith
>
>

[Bruce]

Hi Ulrich

Fairlead distance is more than adequate. We have no level wind mechanism
but the ratio of drum width to drum-to-guide rollers is such that the
cable winds smoothly. (It's 3.5m to 150mm or around 23:1.)
Guilotine design is also over engineered. We use the same design on our
"old" single drum, and test it regularly. The only problem we have
experienced is that the original arm to the weight that drives the
guilotine suffered metal fatigue from the vibration (especially from
towing over our rustic airfield). We substituted a more "springy" softer
steel and fitted a seperate hardened blade to cure the problem of the
lever breaking occasionally when we tested it. This only ever happened
after cutting the cable when the arm hit the stop, but still cause for
concern...

Thanks
Bruce

Ulrich Neumann wrote:

> c1rrus > wrote in message >...
>
>>One for the mechanically minded out there.
>>
>>Our club is currently constructing a double drum winch. More accurately
>>I should say - re-constructing as said winch is based on, and uses the
>>major components of an old single drum winch.
>>
>>The design is of the trailer with a V8 vehicle transmission attached type.
>>Ford 352W (2V) engine
>>3 Speed automatic transmission
>>Modified differential feeding power to drums attached to the half shafts.
>>Drums are steel units with the large base diameter and narrow aperture
>>suitable for our 2.75mm single strand medium carbon spring steel cable.
>>
>>Having become involved in resurrecting the project after it's
>>originators left the club and the winch lay derelict for some years I am
>>not at all confident that the power transmission mechanism is safe,
>>durable or desirable.
>>
>>Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
>>refer to it as a dog clutch)
>>This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
>>centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either side.
>>There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half shaft.
>>
>>One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
>>on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
>>engineers had his treatment in mind...
>>Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
>>
>>There is no way we can afford a modern commercial winch, but this does
>>not mean we should not make a better attempt at out homebuilt. Would
>>appreciate the opportunity to learn from the experience out there. We
>>need input on transmission paths, materials, controls and probably many
>>things we have not thought of yet.
>>
>>The engine and gearbox are standard , reliable and have been competently
>>overhauled. For the rest, the only decently engineered parts of the
>>project are the drums , which are solid, accurately made and balanced.
>>The rest would be very familiar to Messrs Heath and Robinson...
>>
>>Any help gladly received.
>
>
>
> Hi Cirrus,
>
> I am in the process of investigating the different technical aspects
> of building a winch. So far, I have several reports that indicate
> using an axle - specially one from a commom pick-up truck - in the way
> you described it, is a sure way of heading for a desaster. The
> differential gear has to be locked out by welding the spider gears
> solid. You can find references about this on the net. Keep in mind
> that doing this will change the gear ratio. Your drums will most
> likely spin slower at a given input shaft speed than with the
> differential spinning. To keep the design simple, you may want to
> consider just a single drum design.
>
> To keep the cable from piling up on the center of the drum, keep the
> distance between the fairlead and the drum as long as possible. German
> regulations require a distance of at least 18 times the width of drum
> between the drum and the fairlead to be operated without a level-wind
> mechanism.
> Do you have well functioning guilliotins capable of hacking through at
> least two cables in one trial?
>
> Happy winching,
>
> Uli Neumann
> Libelle 'GM'

[goneill]

I am not the guy with all the tech details but our club has a truck axle
1950s vintage doing that job, I think for at least 25 years mounted in
the winch.
The driver hops out unwinds a locking lug then pulls the half shaft to
disengage it from the gears in the centre walks round and reverses the
procedure to use the other side.I believe it was from a 5-7 ton load
truck.
gary
"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
m...
> c1rrus > wrote in message
>...
> > One for the mechanically minded out there.
> >
> > Our club is currently constructing a double drum winch. More accurately
> > I should say - re-constructing as said winch is based on, and uses the
> > major components of an old single drum winch.
> >
> > The design is of the trailer with a V8 vehicle transmission attached
type.
> > Ford 352W (2V) engine
> > 3 Speed automatic transmission
> > Modified differential feeding power to drums attached to the half
shafts.
> > Drums are steel units with the large base diameter and narrow aperture
> > suitable for our 2.75mm single strand medium carbon spring steel cable.
> >
> > Having become involved in resurrecting the project after it's
> > originators left the club and the winch lay derelict for some years I am
> > not at all confident that the power transmission mechanism is safe,
> > durable or desirable.
> >
> > Current design has a crude castellated gear (I would not glorify it to
> > refer to it as a dog clutch)
> > This slides from side to side so that it is completely disengaged in the
> > centre and engages one or the other half shaft when moved to either
side.
> > There is an interconnected disk brake that locks the undriven half
shaft.
> >
> > One problem is that this leaves the diff spinning one way or the other
> > on every launch. Now Borg-Warner make a good product but I doubt the
> > engineers had his treatment in mind...
> > Another problem is the poorly supported axle to the drum.
> >
> > There is no way we can afford a modern commercial winch, but this does
> > not mean we should not make a better attempt at out homebuilt. Would
> > appreciate the opportunity to learn from the experience out there. We
> > need input on transmission paths, materials, controls and probably many
> > things we have not thought of yet.
> >
> > The engine and gearbox are standard , reliable and have been competently
> > overhauled. For the rest, the only decently engineered parts of the
> > project are the drums , which are solid, accurately made and balanced.
> > The rest would be very familiar to Messrs Heath and Robinson...
> >
> > Any help gladly received.
>
>
> Hi Cirrus,
>
> I am in the process of investigating the different technical aspects
> of building a winch. So far, I have several reports that indicate
> using an axle - specially one from a commom pick-up truck - in the way
> you described it, is a sure way of heading for a desaster. The
> differential gear has to be locked out by welding the spider gears
> solid. You can find references about this on the net. Keep in mind
> that doing this will change the gear ratio. Your drums will most
> likely spin slower at a given input shaft speed than with the
> differential spinning. To keep the design simple, you may want to
> consider just a single drum design.
>
> To keep the cable from piling up on the center of the drum, keep the
> distance between the fairlead and the drum as long as possible. German
> regulations require a distance of at least 18 times the width of drum
> between the drum and the fairlead to be operated without a level-wind
> mechanism.
> Do you have well functioning guilliotins capable of hacking through at
> least two cables in one trial?
>
> Happy winching,
>
> Uli Neumann
> Libelle 'GM'

[Keith W]

"Bruce" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Keith
>
> What is your shaft diameter? Ours looks woefully inadequate - I have not
> measured it but the Mk 1 eyeball indicates around 30mm (slightly more
> than one inch)
>
> Bruce
>
From memory it's not much more - a standard lorry half shaft. It only takes
'twisting' loads, as the drum runs on the normal wheel bearings in the end
of the axle casing. If it can take the semi-impact loads of a lorry driving
over rough ground, I can't see any difficulty with the relatively smooth
application of torque for a winch launch.

(Observations only from a 'guesswork' perspective. The winch was already
constructed when I joined the club about ten years ago, and I haven't seen
anything other than what is visible from the outside. The system works by,
as somebody else has said, pushing one half shaft in to engage the spline in
the diff, which causes the other half shaft to be pushed clear of its
spline, presumably by an interposed spacer.)

Keith

[Clint]

The Gold Fields Gliding Club winch sounds like a similar design. It's
a nice little flight in the cirrus from Parys to Hennenman and there
is always a braai and a social on a Saturday night. I would suggest
you fly down on a Saturday, inspect our winch and discuss your issues
with Klaas Goudriaan (who has also just built a winch for Potch
Gliding Club), spend the evening sleeping either at the club or with
one of the members and then fly back on Sunday.

Cheers
Clinton
LAK 12

[c1rrus]

Clint wrote:
> The Gold Fields Gliding Club winch sounds like a similar design. It's
> a nice little flight in the cirrus from Parys to Hennenman and there
> is always a braai and a social on a Saturday night. I would suggest
> you fly down on a Saturday, inspect our winch and discuss your issues
> with Klaas Goudriaan (who has also just built a winch for Potch
> Gliding Club), spend the evening sleeping either at the club or with
> one of the members and then fly back on Sunday.
>
> Cheers
> Clinton
> LAK 12
Hi Clint

Sounds like an invitation I'll have to take up - if it just stops
raining our end of the world...